Why do some purists crib when Hindusthani Bhava is added to the Carnatic flavour of a raga. I have heard numberous Vidwans do it. TNS, Voletti, Tanjore Kalyanaraman, MSG and now our own Sanjay. And for me it only sounds great, when the touches are shown here and there, without compromising the Carnaticity of the same. Take Shubha Panthuvarali for example...a raga that can be given a lot of Hindusthani shades. I would argue that it is nice when it is not stretched beyond a point. This line has to be drawn by the artiste himself. After all there are so many who were able to. Even Shri Muthu Swami Deekshithar had some Hindusthani raga based compositons.
Wat say folks?
Why not Hindustani in Carnatic?????i mean traces...;-)
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knandago2001
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
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Already plenty of Hindustani shades have been mixed in , and is part and parcel of CM. Many purists rue the fact that now a days they hear more Malkauns than Hindolam in the concerts. It is evident for those who understand HM. The trend started with GNB getting enamoured with Bade Ghulam’s music. Bismillah Khan also had a definite influence of CM vidwans. Masters like Abdul Karim Khan had stayed in Chennai and his influence has also been felt on CM.
The desire to HMise CM stems from the desire to enjoy the aesthetic beauty of dealing the notes in a skilful manner as done by the HM musicians which is not available to CM music lovers. If he desires to experience this type of aesthetics, a CM lover has to go through the task of learning HM. The beauty of HM lies in its repose, the sowkhyam, while traversing the notes. This is mostly felt in the alaap. This beauty can be achieved in CM also by a similar treatment and avoiding the breakneck speed in singing. I had experienced similar aesthetic enjoyment in Jayamma’s padams.
There is no need to import anything into CM. It is quite rich by itself. It would be available to us only if we strive for it. It would be possible only if our vidwans practice music as the HM musicians do, with delicacy and respect, in ‘sowkhya’ kalam. If any one tries to import ‘tan’ of the HM he would run away as fast as he could, because some ‘tans’ they consider as traditional defy all aesthetics.
The value of preserving tradition is not understood by the modern generation. Just like people vandalise heritage structures of archeological importance and at the same time they blame our forefathers for not preserving certain sites of archeological importance or for not preserving ancient texts on music, the future will blame the present generation for not taking enough precaution to preserve the tradition.
The solution is not to HMise, but to render CM with HM technique of delineation. Let us preserve our Sambar as it is and not add garam masala.
The desire to HMise CM stems from the desire to enjoy the aesthetic beauty of dealing the notes in a skilful manner as done by the HM musicians which is not available to CM music lovers. If he desires to experience this type of aesthetics, a CM lover has to go through the task of learning HM. The beauty of HM lies in its repose, the sowkhyam, while traversing the notes. This is mostly felt in the alaap. This beauty can be achieved in CM also by a similar treatment and avoiding the breakneck speed in singing. I had experienced similar aesthetic enjoyment in Jayamma’s padams.
There is no need to import anything into CM. It is quite rich by itself. It would be available to us only if we strive for it. It would be possible only if our vidwans practice music as the HM musicians do, with delicacy and respect, in ‘sowkhya’ kalam. If any one tries to import ‘tan’ of the HM he would run away as fast as he could, because some ‘tans’ they consider as traditional defy all aesthetics.
The value of preserving tradition is not understood by the modern generation. Just like people vandalise heritage structures of archeological importance and at the same time they blame our forefathers for not preserving certain sites of archeological importance or for not preserving ancient texts on music, the future will blame the present generation for not taking enough precaution to preserve the tradition.
The solution is not to HMise, but to render CM with HM technique of delineation. Let us preserve our Sambar as it is and not add garam masala.
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keerthi
- Posts: 1309
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It is quite incorrect to say that Muthuswami dikshitar has used 'hindustani' ragas.. all one can say is that there is a resemblance between his compositional style and the dhrupad mode of elaboration.
What we call hindustani or karnatic elements in raga and swaraprastara phrases differ mostly in the Gamakas they employ. carnatic music is already beleagured by a trend of giving disproportionate weightage to the wrong kind of rAgas. mohanakalyani and nalinakanthi and Hamsadhwani as main pieces, taanam-pallavi in every concievable raga, while the glorious masterpieces big and small are on the endangered list. Due to our callousness, we have lost out several rAgas like andhali,samanta, narayana desakshi, padi,saindhavi and mangalakaisiki which were part of the staple even 200 years age. Like pressed flowers in a botanist's herbarium; all we have left of them is a lakshana taxonomy,devoid of colour or fragrance. the solitary krthis found in these ragas are taken as gospel asnd as the definitive versions of the raga, without hesitance.
Oleti or TSK would sing an occasional phrase reminescent of the uttaradi style, but they were in full control, and knew what they were doing. the bulk of their renditions would be a very classic carnatic version, almost definitive of the idiom.
when Oleti sang bhajans in the bade ghulam ali thumri style, it could evoke a physical response in the listener, as could TSKAlyanaraman's deepavali, but they never sang pallavis in mand or pahadi.
Will all musicians be able to employ this discernment and wisdom(viveka) while they try and infuse uttaradi elements into thir carnatic renditions.
What we call hindustani or karnatic elements in raga and swaraprastara phrases differ mostly in the Gamakas they employ. carnatic music is already beleagured by a trend of giving disproportionate weightage to the wrong kind of rAgas. mohanakalyani and nalinakanthi and Hamsadhwani as main pieces, taanam-pallavi in every concievable raga, while the glorious masterpieces big and small are on the endangered list. Due to our callousness, we have lost out several rAgas like andhali,samanta, narayana desakshi, padi,saindhavi and mangalakaisiki which were part of the staple even 200 years age. Like pressed flowers in a botanist's herbarium; all we have left of them is a lakshana taxonomy,devoid of colour or fragrance. the solitary krthis found in these ragas are taken as gospel asnd as the definitive versions of the raga, without hesitance.
Oleti or TSK would sing an occasional phrase reminescent of the uttaradi style, but they were in full control, and knew what they were doing. the bulk of their renditions would be a very classic carnatic version, almost definitive of the idiom.
when Oleti sang bhajans in the bade ghulam ali thumri style, it could evoke a physical response in the listener, as could TSKAlyanaraman's deepavali, but they never sang pallavis in mand or pahadi.
Will all musicians be able to employ this discernment and wisdom(viveka) while they try and infuse uttaradi elements into thir carnatic renditions.
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Jigyaasa
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- Joined: 16 May 2006, 14:04
Bravo!!! Well-said...keerthi wrote:Due to our callousness, we have lost out several rAgas like andhali,samanta, narayana desakshi, padi,saindhavi and mangalakaisiki which were part of the staple even 200 years age. Like pressed flowers in a botanist's herbarium; all we have left of them is a lakshana taxonomy,devoid of colour or fragrance. the solitary krthis found in these ragas are taken as gospel asnd as the definitive versions of the raga, without hesitance.
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coolkapali
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gravikiran
- Posts: 114
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Hi Keerthi,keerthi wrote:..Due to our callousness, we have lost out several rAgas like andhali,samanta, narayana desakshi, padi,saindhavi and mangalakaisiki which were part of the staple even 200 years age..
Could you please elaborate on what basis you are concluding that andhali, samanta, etc. were part of the 'staple' two hundred years ago?
Thanks,
Ravi Kiran.
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vainika
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I'm all for it, but for some, it's like mercury in corn syrup...
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preposterous
- Posts: 17
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gravikiran wrote:Hi Keerthi,keerthi wrote:..Due to our callousness, we have lost out several rAgas like andhali,samanta, narayana desakshi, padi,saindhavi and mangalakaisiki which were part of the staple even 200 years age..
Could you please elaborate on what basis you are concluding that andhali, samanta, etc. were part of the 'staple' two hundred years ago?
Thanks,
Ravi Kiran.
Keerthi,
Your response would really help us to understand this in detail. Thanks
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vpadmana
- Posts: 46
- Joined: 23 Sep 2006, 05:08
What yardstick do we use to measure the "purity" of Carnatic Music? Who decides whether Carnatic Music has been "corrupted" OR not? It is not as if they are adding rap & heavy metal to it.
While I do agree that the two styles are distinct, I don't believe that there is anything wrong with incorporating elements of one style into the other. If a HamsAnandi AlApanai has a Sohni phrase OR a Hindolam has a mAlkauns touch, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that IMHO. As long as the artist adheres to Shruthi, rAgAm, bhAvam and tAlam, they should be free to "experiment". Especially in case of rAgAs that crossover (Hamsanandi, Sindhu Bhairavi, Panthuvarali, Dwijavanthi, Desh... you get the idea).
Now, of course there is a limit to the experimentation. Introducing a "Purya Dhanasree" "pudi" in Shri Thyagaraja's "Raghuvara Nannu - Kamavardhini" would certainly be akin to adding Splenda/Equal to "Vella kozhukattai". On the other hand, I feel that adding a bit of Sohni to Hamsanandi gently enhances the rendering.
But then again, I guess this is a matter of personal preference. My personal opinion is that artists should be given the freedom to experiment. Borrowing a famous line from the movie Thillana Mohanambal, "kalaignargal suthanthira paravaigal. avangala avanga pOkkulayE vittu vidavEndum".
While I do agree that the two styles are distinct, I don't believe that there is anything wrong with incorporating elements of one style into the other. If a HamsAnandi AlApanai has a Sohni phrase OR a Hindolam has a mAlkauns touch, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that IMHO. As long as the artist adheres to Shruthi, rAgAm, bhAvam and tAlam, they should be free to "experiment". Especially in case of rAgAs that crossover (Hamsanandi, Sindhu Bhairavi, Panthuvarali, Dwijavanthi, Desh... you get the idea).
Now, of course there is a limit to the experimentation. Introducing a "Purya Dhanasree" "pudi" in Shri Thyagaraja's "Raghuvara Nannu - Kamavardhini" would certainly be akin to adding Splenda/Equal to "Vella kozhukattai". On the other hand, I feel that adding a bit of Sohni to Hamsanandi gently enhances the rendering.
But then again, I guess this is a matter of personal preference. My personal opinion is that artists should be given the freedom to experiment. Borrowing a famous line from the movie Thillana Mohanambal, "kalaignargal suthanthira paravaigal. avangala avanga pOkkulayE vittu vidavEndum".
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vijay
- Posts: 2522
- Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:06
I don't have very strong views on the subject either way. However I think we need to figure what "Hindustani" style means. IMOit could be one or more of the following:
1) Taking up a Hindustani raga like Darbari, Multani etc.
2) Singing phrases that are common in the HM version of a raga - e.g MRG in Purvikalyani/Pantuvarali
3) Handling phrases in a Hindustani-ish manner - basically use of delicate glides/jarus/meends. Dhrupad-like taanam
4) Incorporation of HM elements in execution of a piece - speeding up during swaras/neraval, "decoupling" the rhtyhm of swara passages/neravals from the rhtyhmic structure and tempo of the tala
In the end, perceptions of aesthetics apart, there is a compromise between expanding one's musical horizon/preserving tradition and individual opinions would no doubt vary. My own tolerance is broadly reflected in the order of the examples above
I find nothing wrong in bringing Hindustani ragas into the CM fold. As has been pointed out above, this is really nothing new and has been done even by the most revered icons of the Carnatic idiom. However, personally speaking, I hope that Darbaris and Multanis, charming though they are, will not eat into the Bhairavis and Kambhojis, which incidentally the last raga brings to mind the Dagar brothers rendition in that raga - now there is an excellent example of drawing a distinction between exotic melodic ideas and executional purity. I would advance Sanjay's HM RTPs as another.
As above, I find absolutely nothing wrong in singing Hindustani-ish phrases as long it is an embellishment of the existing/traditional melodic structure rather than a revision. In other words, moderation is the key.
Several of Deekshitar's krithis - Neerajakshi is one that comes to mind - are clearly influenced by Hindustani techniques of vocalization (it is incidentally the Khyal that this krithi brings to mind and not Dhrupad). Basically we are talking about excessive use of jarus here. These have a charm of their own and are particularly suitable for certain ragas but overdoing it could threaten one of the foundations of South Indian music (indeed, I would argue all of South Indian art) - azhuttham.
The last is a strict no-no IMHO.
1) Taking up a Hindustani raga like Darbari, Multani etc.
2) Singing phrases that are common in the HM version of a raga - e.g MRG in Purvikalyani/Pantuvarali
3) Handling phrases in a Hindustani-ish manner - basically use of delicate glides/jarus/meends. Dhrupad-like taanam
4) Incorporation of HM elements in execution of a piece - speeding up during swaras/neraval, "decoupling" the rhtyhm of swara passages/neravals from the rhtyhmic structure and tempo of the tala
In the end, perceptions of aesthetics apart, there is a compromise between expanding one's musical horizon/preserving tradition and individual opinions would no doubt vary. My own tolerance is broadly reflected in the order of the examples above
I find nothing wrong in bringing Hindustani ragas into the CM fold. As has been pointed out above, this is really nothing new and has been done even by the most revered icons of the Carnatic idiom. However, personally speaking, I hope that Darbaris and Multanis, charming though they are, will not eat into the Bhairavis and Kambhojis, which incidentally the last raga brings to mind the Dagar brothers rendition in that raga - now there is an excellent example of drawing a distinction between exotic melodic ideas and executional purity. I would advance Sanjay's HM RTPs as another.
As above, I find absolutely nothing wrong in singing Hindustani-ish phrases as long it is an embellishment of the existing/traditional melodic structure rather than a revision. In other words, moderation is the key.
Several of Deekshitar's krithis - Neerajakshi is one that comes to mind - are clearly influenced by Hindustani techniques of vocalization (it is incidentally the Khyal that this krithi brings to mind and not Dhrupad). Basically we are talking about excessive use of jarus here. These have a charm of their own and are particularly suitable for certain ragas but overdoing it could threaten one of the foundations of South Indian music (indeed, I would argue all of South Indian art) - azhuttham.
The last is a strict no-no IMHO.
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keerthi
- Posts: 1309
- Joined: 12 Oct 2008, 14:10
sorry all,
I lost track of this thread long ago.
gravikiran,preposterous;
the copper plates with Annammacharya's songs unearthed from tirupathi and ahobalam have only the lyric of his compositions, with the rAga indicated. These were collected, critically editted and published by the oriental research institute at Tirupathi. The frequency of usage of 'those' ragas directed me to 'that' conclusion.
SangeethakalAnidhi RAllapalli Ananthakrishna Sharma had published a volume of 50 krthis which he has annotated in the original rAgas.
ManchAla jagannatha Rao has published a set of volumes of upto a few hundred songs annotated in the original ragas.
We haven't heard the earlier carnatic songs in dwijAvanthi - those of Utthukadu V.S.kavi or MArgadarshi sheshayyangar or kshetrayya; so it would be wrong to conclude that MD's version has a 'hindustani' influence.
kartik,
Not just the exotic rAmkali, but our old familiars like mAlavagaula, thodi, shahAna and mukhAri are treated by dikshitar in the alAp style, where the krthi gradually builds up the atmosphere of the raga with very deliberate, carefully crafted, non-redundant phrases. This is supported by the absence of too many sangathis.
The south Indian lakshana-granthas include ragas like byAgu - behAg, jilavu - zilAf,hejjujji - hijjaj and Jingla - zangla;besides those commonly called 'hindustani rAgas in carnatic music' . How can we call them Northern rAgas...?
I lost track of this thread long ago.
gravikiran,preposterous;
the copper plates with Annammacharya's songs unearthed from tirupathi and ahobalam have only the lyric of his compositions, with the rAga indicated. These were collected, critically editted and published by the oriental research institute at Tirupathi. The frequency of usage of 'those' ragas directed me to 'that' conclusion.
SangeethakalAnidhi RAllapalli Ananthakrishna Sharma had published a volume of 50 krthis which he has annotated in the original rAgas.
ManchAla jagannatha Rao has published a set of volumes of upto a few hundred songs annotated in the original ragas.
We haven't heard the earlier carnatic songs in dwijAvanthi - those of Utthukadu V.S.kavi or MArgadarshi sheshayyangar or kshetrayya; so it would be wrong to conclude that MD's version has a 'hindustani' influence.
kartik,
Not just the exotic rAmkali, but our old familiars like mAlavagaula, thodi, shahAna and mukhAri are treated by dikshitar in the alAp style, where the krthi gradually builds up the atmosphere of the raga with very deliberate, carefully crafted, non-redundant phrases. This is supported by the absence of too many sangathis.
The south Indian lakshana-granthas include ragas like byAgu - behAg, jilavu - zilAf,hejjujji - hijjaj and Jingla - zangla;besides those commonly called 'hindustani rAgas in carnatic music' . How can we call them Northern rAgas...?
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Sangeet Rasik
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
The "Hindustani" influence in CM extends far beyond the use of certain ragas. The compositional style of M. Dikshitar (kritis containing both vilamba and madhyama/druta kalas) is a direct influence of HM. This is a true 'classical' style of composition, offering unlimited avenues for aesthetic exploration.
Overall, HM represents a very wide range of musical concepts, principles, and innovations from all parts of India (and some from foreign influences as well). The strength of CM (as seen in the works of a few composers) is the capability to integrate raga, laya, and sahitya in a complex manner. Combining this with the superior grasp of raga principles found in HM, it is possible in my opinion to construct a more "bharatiya shastriya sangeet" that remains true to tradition but is not confined by the limitations of either CM or HM.
SR
Overall, HM represents a very wide range of musical concepts, principles, and innovations from all parts of India (and some from foreign influences as well). The strength of CM (as seen in the works of a few composers) is the capability to integrate raga, laya, and sahitya in a complex manner. Combining this with the superior grasp of raga principles found in HM, it is possible in my opinion to construct a more "bharatiya shastriya sangeet" that remains true to tradition but is not confined by the limitations of either CM or HM.
SR