what is the mula for carnatic music?

ananth krishna · Post by **ananth krishna** » 04 Dec 2008, 13:52

from where carnatic music took its birth that means generally it is been told that all the langauges took their birth from sanskrit.in the same way what is the birth reason or place or any thing for carnatic music.
i am asking this one because some body wrote that hindustani is the oldest music of people who used to live near hindu vally that is indus vally (indians) if any body got contradicitions please the topic alone.

poornashadjam · Post by **poornashadjam** » 11 Dec 2008, 15:48

To give a very brief about this topic - Music had its roots in 'OM' and from there the 'Samavedam '. We get a lot of information on the history of Indian music from the Bharatha shastra and Sangitha rathnakara (both in sanskrit)and also from Silappadigaram and the Tolkkapium (Tamil) since 5th century ( if I remember correctly). One can trace two historically distinct traces of music traditions - Sanskrit (using shajmam , Rishabam etc for its swaras) and Tamil (Kural , Thuttam etc for naming its swaras). The distinction between Hindusthani and carnatic grew more distinct only after the 12th century when the north India absorbed the arabi/muslim music and developed into a distinct style and the south -carnatic music got established .In Hindusthani ,music it uses the THAATS and the carnatic developed a scientific Mela system of raga classification . The raga classification in 72 melas etc are all recent ones - some 3 -4 centuries old. Raamamatya is the first one to do a basic classification and then Venkatamakin. The real growth of carnatic music is from the days of Sri Purandaradasa...ofcourse through Trinity till date....

Others may very well add their views and informations for more knowledge.

This is only a gist . For a detailed study , you will need a life time.There are quite a number of researchers in this field. Our own Madras Univ Music dept has done a lot of researches in this line.

Regards

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 16 Dec 2008, 06:25

ananth krishna wrote:generally it is been told that all the langauges took their birth from sanskrit

This is an incorrect statement, to say the least!

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 16 Dec 2008, 06:32

poornashadjam wrote:The distinction between Hindusthani and carnatic grew more distinct only after the 12th century when the north India absorbed the arabi/muslim music and developed into a distinct style and the south -carnatic music got established .In Hindusthani ,music it uses the THAATS and the carnatic developed a scientific Mela system of raga classification . The raga classification in 72 melas etc are all recent ones - some 3 -4 centuries old. Raamamatya is the first one to do a basic classification and then Venkatamakin. The real growth of carnatic music is from the days of Sri Purandaradasa...ofcourse through Trinity till date....

Others may very well add their views and informations for more knowledge.

This is only a gist . For a detailed study , you will need a life time.There are quite a number of researchers in this field. Our own Madras Univ Music dept has done a lot of researches in this line.

Regards

The divergence between the two streams started probably in 12th -13th centuries - but the nomenclature is clearly of much more recent origin.

-Ramakriya

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Dec 2008, 06:52

The real growth of carnatic music is from the days of Sri Purandaradasa...

That is what is normally written in books. I am curious if research sheds more light on that. We see various strands of development on the theoretical side: venkatamakhin and others. On the practical aspects of composing and performing side, there seems to be a lot of disconnect. On the one hand, the ragas of many of purandara dasa compositions are not well known and so we do not really have a good base to understand Purandara Dasa's musical contribution ( not that I am doubting it ) but we do consider him the 'father of carnatic music' and the person who set up the 'teaching syllabus'. How strong a documentation do we have for all this?

I see a lack of a overall narrative of the past 500-600 years on the performance side of the music though theoretical/musicological side seems to be better preserved.

I am sure a lot of this is due to my own ignorance and so I will be delighted if someone can share any info from the research side.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 16 Dec 2008, 11:40

Prof R Satyanarayana has written extensively about Purandara ( and other haridasas) contribution. Although the musical structure of many of them are missing, it is very likely that they were the torchbearers, so to say. Let's not forget Purandara came in almost 75 years after Sripadaraya. I would guess Sripadaraya, and Annamayya might be the ones who popularized the 'pada' format, that ultimately grew into the kriti format in the 18th century.

Other references that call Purandara as the Karnataka sangeetha pitAmaha have come much later in the late 18th or 19th centuries. However, since 'there can't be smoke without fire' there should not be any doubt in believing that Purandara was the one who started off with the system of saraLe varase - janTi varase - geete etc for early lessons.

-Ramakriya

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Dec 2008, 13:25

Thanks Ramakriya. I will try to get the books by Prof. Satyanarayana. It is actually quite a charming thing to see little kids singing Srigananatha, KereyaNeeranu, Padumanabha etc. no matter which carnatic music school one goes to.

I have read about the the dramatic changes in the life of purandara dasa. I am curious if there are accounts on his musical background. Lack of such information does not mean anything since we are talking about events that happened 500+ years back but I am curious if there is any bread crumb of historical info that one can trace and fill in the blanks to create the narrative. We have the literature side of Purandara Dasa and other Dasas in tact which is a great treasure. What turned him into music? Who carried on his musical education training system to rest of south india? Are there references to Sarali varisai and his geetas as teaching methods in the various documents that are available in Tanjore which was the subsequent major music center after vijayanagaram? I can imagine musical research students keeping busy with such endeavors ( if not done already ).

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 16 Dec 2008, 18:06

Since Purandara Dasa's PiLLari Geethas are very near, in the sequence of beginners' lessons, to Sarala Varase, Janti Varase, Alankara etc, it serves as a strong hint that it was Purandara Dasa himself who conceieved and created the lessons lower down the order as well. Not only the lessons, but also the fundamental concepts of the present day taala-system which are taught in the Alankaaraas.

Another strong hint is that there aren't any compositions (at least to my knowledge) from times prior to Purandara Dasa that are set to any Taala that Purandara Dasa is said to have conceptualized. If there are, they probably were set to their current Taala at a later date.

I think there is not much dispute among musical scholars about this.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 17 Dec 2008, 00:48

vasanthakokilam wrote:I am curious if there are accounts on his musical background.

I have written a story , I repeat, a short story on this

topic . Hope to translate it to English, and post it sometime.

There are lots of fables. But my firm belief is that Srinivasa Nayaka could not have turned to the musician Purandara dasa was, at the flip of a switch

-Ramakriya

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Dec 2008, 01:43

ramakriya: Thanks. I am looking forward to it. You expressed what I had in mind clearly with 'flip of the switch'.

As a general comment, hope some rasikas do not get offended that we are trying to look at the historical picture of such great personalities who are considered saints. Exploring such matters does not mean we are questioning/doubting those narratives/fables that have strong religious/spiritual basis. I am just trying to understand how much written down data and well supported oral narratives actually exist to support what we all commonly believe in. Many times books tend to report the folklore ( with usually some truth to them ) and after a while the folklore part gets left out and subsequent books repeat the previous books.

With that said, Girish, on one of the specific topics you mention, the suladi saptha thalas are attributed to Purandara dasa. Along the lines you mentioned, if these thala system/names did not exist before his time and existed after his time, that is a good piece of evidence. Do we have some data if both of the above conditions are true? I am reasonably sure thala systems existed before that time ( Sharmaji will be able to provide some knowledge here ) but we can limit it to the specific suladi saptha thala system.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 17 Dec 2008, 02:22

vasanthakokilam wrote:them ) suladi saptha thalas are attributed to Purandara dasa. Along the lines you mentioned, if these thala system/names did not exist before his time and existed after his time, that is a good piece of evidence. Do we have some data if both of the above conditions are true? I am reasonably sure thalas systems existed before that time ( Sharmaji may be able to provide some knowledge here ) but we can limit it to the specific suladi saptha thala system.

Suladi tALas were in existence for purandara dAsa. Consider Sripada rAyas suLAdis for example. They were called suLAdi tALas precisely for the fact that they were used for singing suLAdis.

Purandara's contribution seems to be that of using the same set of tALas for other compositions such as the padas ( precursor for kriti) and prabandhas (? may be). Before his time, prabhandhas were sung in pretty complicated tALas (or tALas with more complicated angas). I am sure Sri Sarmaji will be able to enlighten us all on this matter.

Contrary to popular belief, neither Purandara nor any other haridAsa seem to have advocated a 35 tALa scheme (with 7 suLAdi tALas with 5 jAtis). That seems to be of a more recent origin. In suLAdis, dhruva, maThya, rUpaka are always chaturashra jAti, aTTa tALa (or haTa tALa, as it was called) was always khanda jAti, tripuTa was always trishra jAti and jampa tALa was always in misra jAti laghu. The ingenuity of purandara might have been involves in using Adi tALa ( which was already in vogue) and terming it as a form of tripuTa tALa.

I have read a book titled "SuLAdi" by R Satyanarayana which discussed these issues in depth. If I can get hold of that book again, I will post.

-Ramakriya

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Dec 2008, 02:42

Those laghu lengths used in Suladi have carried forward to the modern times since those are the default laghu length. Interesting to note that with those laghu length choices, there are two pairs with the same avarthana length: Dhruva/Ata and matya/jampa . We have had many conversations here about the musical significance of anga structure in the context of different thalas with the same avarthana length. Suladis tackle this head on by incorporating two such pairs. May be an analysis of the Suladis will yield some wisdom on the musical basis of angas.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 17 Dec 2008, 11:01

VK and Ramakriya,
I do think it is possible for a Srinivasa Nayaka to turn into a Purandara Dasa at the 'flip of a switch', as you have put it. There are examples of such things in the spiritual history of India.

The most recent example I can think of is that of Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi, who was, "at the flip of a switch", transformed from the boy Venkataraman into the great sage that he was. He underwent a sudden experience of death wherein he realized the separateness of his Self from his body. The boy Venkataraman had till then not manifested any sign of spiritual genius. It happened in a flash. One moment he was just an ordinary boy; the next moment he was an enlightened sage.

Going by your line, one might also say it could not have been possible for Thyagaraja to have composed 'Endaro Mahanubhavulu' at the "flip of the switch", but that obviously wouldn't stand up up to the actual fact.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Dec 2008, 12:38

but that obviously wouldn't stand up up to the actual fact.

Girish, I do not want to pick an argument on faith related matters but you use the word 'fact'. What is actually known about how thyagaraja composed 'endaro Mahanubhavulu'? I personaly would not think any less of Thyagaraja's prowess or sainthood or divinity if he had composed that great epic of a song over time.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 17 Dec 2008, 13:36

VK, the point here is that we ought not to judge saints from a purely artistic, technical or academic perspective. Thyagaraja and Purandara Dasa were men who had realized God, or if that word does not appeal to you, they were men who were at a level of consciousness far removed from the mundane matters of eartly existence which is the lot of lesser mortals like us.

It is not inconceivable, therefore, that their compositions were all extempore, having been divinely inspired.

My use of the word "fact" is based upon this assumption. If one accepts that there is such a thing as divine inspiration, and that Thyagaraja was a man who was in touch with diviner realms than our own, then one can say with confidence that it is a fact that "Endaro" was composed in spontaneity. Or that Srinivasa Nayaka became Purandara Dasa at the "flip of a switch".

Of course, that is not to say that historical artifacts don't have their place in the study of Carnatic music.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Dec 2008, 21:57

Girish: Understood. Just to be sure, as I mentioned previously, faith and belief based knowledge is something personal and I do not want to enter into that realm. Personally, I do have some beliefs and faiths about these great souls and I am setting them aside for this discussion.

The main problem with using sainthood and enlightenment is it is the final answer. There is no question that can not be answered by 'He is a saint, he was in a different plane, so why couldn't he have pulled off that miracle'. If you take that route, then any discovery or research basically grinds to a halt. This is true even when everyone believes that the person is a saint or an enlightened soul since that is really not the point.

V_ANNASAMY · Post by **V_ANNASAMY** » 07 Feb 2009, 16:26

ramakriya wrote:Prof R Satyanarayana has written extensively about Purandara ( and other haridasas) contribution. Although the musical structure of many of them are missing, it is very likely that they were the torchbearers, so to say. Let's not forget Purandara came in almost 75 years after Sripadaraya. I would guess Sripadaraya, and Annamayya might be the ones who popularized the 'pada' format, that ultimately grew into the kriti format in the 18th century.

Other references that call Purandara as the Karnataka sangeetha pitAmaha have come much later in the late 18th or 19th centuries. However, since 'there can't be smoke without fire' there should not be any doubt in believing that Purandara was the one who started off with the system of saraLe varase - janTi varase - geete etc for early lessons.

-Ramakriya

The very fact that commencement of 'SaraLi(easy) varisae itself indicates that there were 'katin'(difficult) system earlier for the learners then, literally. And what a way to develop swara combinations covering under madhya stAyi, janTa, uccha stAyi etc. Then tAlA varieties thru alankAram.

This is as good as comparing with today's fact that before Shri Ariyakudi making the concert pattern, it was in different shape (RTPs / viruthams alone would take some very long hours and without much of varieties in the concert) and ARI is being considered as 'pitAmAh' for existing current pattern. Today, we do not forget to give due credit to ARI, though there were at par/better stalwarts existed.

I have read in one article that PD has made more that 4,50,000 padams, out of which some are only availble with us.

And I feel, the tirukural has seven segments(words), keeping the seven swara concept, even 2000 years back.

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 08 Feb 2009, 07:59

There is one more instance of the 'flip of a switch'.
Saint Pattinathar was a very rich trader (jeweller ) and One day he received a small box containing a written note. the note said," Not even a broken needle will accompany you on your last journey". On seeing this he asked all the villagers to take whatever they wanted from his shop and he went away as a sadhu. He got his realization at the flip of the switch.