Cleveland Aradhana Competitions

Shanmukhapriya · Post by **Shanmukhapriya** » 12 Feb 2009, 23:49

I'm writing this post to invite some thoughts on something that I noticed a few days ago, and not to create any unnecessary controversy. Like many others, I think the organizers are doing a fabulous job of bringing such a grand music festival for us here in North America. Coming to the point, I was planning to register my 11-year old for the Cleveland Tyagaraja Aradhana competitions. There are 3 categories for the Kriti competitions - sub-junior for ages 6 to 9, junior for ages 10 to 14, and senior for ages 15 to 21. Now my intention is for my kid to use these competitions as an opportunity to practice well and build up some confidence. Like other parents, we'll be very happy if our kid wins any of the prizes, but we're not looking for that as a primary reason to go to Cleveland. Having said this, I find that the age grouping is a little on the unfair side. People can disagree with me, but I think that there is a huge maturity difference between a 10-year old and a 14-year old, both musically and mentally. Is it right to pit them against each other in a competitive setting? I would love to hear what others feel about this. If there are enough people who feel like I do, perhaps the organizers could rethink this and come up with a more equitable categorization?

shishya · Post by **shishya** » 13 Feb 2009, 00:05

Imagine the difference in maturity (and just voice training- the 9 year old may be singing for twice the number of years more than the 6 year old asusming they both started at age 3) between a 6 year old and a 9 year old. However, I think it is a good opportunity to let the kids see different kids of several ages perform at difference levels.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 13 Feb 2009, 01:08

Actually the question has very a sound physiological basis (setting aside the psychological one for the moment) - puberty and sex hormones play a huge role in the maturation of the voice. Most people are aware that puberty plays a huge role in the 'breaking' of the male voice (mainly due to the effect of testosterone on the vocal cords) but the same is true (to a lesser extent) with girls as well, and the voice of a fully pubertal girl is different from how that girl's voice sounded when she was prepubertal - even though there is no true 'breaking'. So, a group of 10-14 years-old girls will have those that are pre- as well as those that are fully-pubertal. Another question that comes to mind is: are these groups split by sex - a 13 years-old girl will be very different from a maturational point (nearly fully pubertal) compared to a 13 years-old boy (in early to mid puberty). So these age groups are not very homogenous. Another area where such age based groupings are being questioned is in sports-leagues for children - in sports, there is some evidence that a grouping based on strength levels may be more appropriate than age-based groupings. In this instance (for music), I think they need to group by sex and age - the 10 and under group can be co-ed. A 11 to 13 group and 14 and over group for girls, and a 11-14 group and a 15 and over group for boys may be appropriate, if we use physiological maturation as a rough guide.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 13 Feb 2009, 01:10

Maybe, professional artists like Ms. Nivedita, or Dr. Vijayalakshmi, or Smt. Gayatri can opine, using their own personal expereinces as a guide.

Tulip · Post by **Tulip** » 13 Feb 2009, 01:18

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mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 13 Feb 2009, 04:50

Tulip wrote:You must be kidding if you are taking these competitions seriously. These competitions are already decided. These are ways to get dollar paying students for indian teachers. Did you know that mridangam results are already declared for students? They have a trust award for this - so it goes only to the trustees students.
You need to be a student or a close associate of Ramani or Sundaram to win. Or your teacher should be the Judge. Remember the time when A.S. Murali gave first price to 4 people? All where his students! Remember Lalgudi GJR giving away prizes to Anuradha Sridhar's Students last year? She is related to them. Hold a fund raiser and give all the money to Sundaram. Your children and students will walk away with awards. There is one fundraising event in California one week before Cleveland Aradhana and the Chief Guest is Sundaram. Watch out for winners from that school. Did you notice the mridangam for T.K. Govinda Rao on April 15th? It is a direct effect to fund raising. Go through the schedule and see the indian-american musicians featured. Each will have a tale.

The rules in the aradhana web site say one thing while Ramani says one thing. Remember how Ramani started scolding a kid two years back when he saw the name of Aditya in the entry as the kid sat to perform for the competition. He is so old that he could not recognize his student Aditya to this other Aditya. So what if this Aditya gave concerts elsewhere? The rules say, that you should not have given the concert in Cleveland Aradhana. But Ramani has a problem with that. The rules ask for student to select the items they want and register. Ramani asks do you know anything in purvi kalyani? Just play that. So, why should one register if Ramani has his way?

You have two options. Either pay $50 and go. If your teacher or friend is the Judge, you will win. Otherwise, dont go and feel disappointed. Register for free to pay homage on the inauguration day.

Cleveland Aradhana has become so big that people's grievances will not matter. You have to be politically correct to win. Your pleas for justice will only fall on a deaf year. Remember how a child cried at the prize distribution last year "i am only good to sing at a kolu". Save this grief for your child.

I've got a question for you,

Do you (or your child) learn music for the love of learning, or do they learn it to win a prize?

If the answer is the latter, then you (or your child, or whoever) is not learning for the right reason. If it is the former, then you shouldn't care one bit about the competition (which no matter what, SOMEONE will complain about).

As for the original question , I really hope I'm not coming off too arrogant, rude, mean-spirited, etc., however the question is... "who cares?"

Does winning mean so much to actually change the structure of a competition that has been going on for decades? A competition that has taken an ample amount of hard work and has gained reputation both nationally and internationally? This isn't directed to you, however to people in general. Of course it is always good to find the "most fair" way to judge a person, but no matter what, there will always be an argument about the "fairness" from the judges because so-and-so didn't win.

I'm not arguing whether or not the structure is fair, or whether or not it has to be changed, but rather, what exactly is the most important part of this competition?

I hope I haven't come off sounding like a jerk, or one of "those" criticizers, it's just that every year the Cleveland season has come around, there always seems to be at least one thread criticizing the competition for whatever reason, and I finally want to get the answer to the question: "Why"?

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 13 Feb 2009, 06:44

Aradhana to my knowledge is paying homage/respects. Why a competition clubbed with this. I guess if at all they/any organizer want to hold a competition, it should be done separately and npot in the name of aradhana.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 13 Feb 2009, 07:03

Tulip,

Unfortunately, you did not get the question of the OP right - the question was about the age grouping - even if the contest is rigged (who cares anyway if it is? we don't want rants), I think the groups should be appropriately formed.

Mridhangam kid,

You are NOT coming off like a jerk at all!

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 13 Feb 2009, 07:22

kjrao · Post by **kjrao** » 13 Feb 2009, 07:27

The younger children in each age group will get multiple opportunities in the coming years. The parents of the younger children should stress this point to the children and keep any unreasonable expectation under check !!! The judges should encourage, with some kind words, the children who are good for their age and miss out on prizes.

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 13 Feb 2009, 08:39

Tulip....if you try harder, you can stoop even lower !!!

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 13 Feb 2009, 09:27

Dear Mridhangam Kid,
I wish to express my Admiration for your comments in various Forums. I do not know where you live. I only wish you continue your enthusiasm & your opinions are far weightier than non-kids! I truly wish there were more mridangam kids and for that matter more adults who have your level of maturity. VKV

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 13 Feb 2009, 12:59

Well said, VKV Sir !

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Feb 2009, 14:28

For those who don't know our fellow member mridangam kid, he has been one of our 'mature' members (a teenager), born and brought up in the US who goes to India during his school vacations to learn mrudangam. I know him only through the forum and have appreciated him for his wise statements all along.

MKM · Post by **MKM** » 13 Feb 2009, 17:52

VKV sir and Swaminathan sir... Thanks for your kind words to Mkid.

After reading Tulip's post I am so saddened to see the bitterness and negativity, that I feel compelled to write this.
if this will make you feel better Tulip... Mkid started learning Mridangam from age eight. after 7 years of learning we took him to his first competetion in Cleveland at age 15. Eventhough the judges were very well known to the family, (Mkid being the Grandson of a well known musician of yester years) much to the judges dismay, we did not even meet the judges or the trustees until after the prizes(including the trust prize) were announced (Both of which MKID won). Yes.. since then he has been going to India for advanced training. it took 7 years of dedication, hard work and practice to get what he got and there could not have been unfairness in the judgement.
Reg. anuradha's students... have you heard them? They are tiny alright ... but their music is OUTSTANDING!
Like Mkid said win or not, i think taking your children to Cleveland Aradhana is a GREAT experience and I think one matures and learns more by losing trhan winning in the long run.

MKM · Post by **MKM** » 13 Feb 2009, 18:07

To continue...

1.Mkid has since stopped competeing.

2. Judges are professional musicians who have a passion for good music. I cannot imagine them recognizing someone who is undeserving. Please have faith.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Feb 2009, 21:31

Spoken like a good mother who brought up a son anyone would be proud of

makham · Post by **makham** » 14 Feb 2009, 12:46

Every competition in every field is accompanied by subjective considerations - it is inevitable and sometimes desirable because trying to quantify unquantifiable factors may be misleading. How about judges who go overboard to display their impartiality and not select a participant for a prize for the only reason that he/she is his student?

Why not eliminate the concepts of "competition" and winning a prize etc. Even if the competition is conducted in the fairest manner possible, the losers feel discouraged. It is better to treat these events as opportunities to get feedback. The judges may give feedback structured on several dimensions. Based on these it would be obvious to the participants as to where they are strong and where they need to improve. This would eliminate the psychological aspects and pre-emptive pessimisms about the fairness.

gowri narayanan · Post by **gowri narayanan** » 14 Feb 2009, 13:27

A typical feedback may sound as follows:

1. Your alignment to shruti was good.

2. You should understand the meaning of the lyric in deciding whether to deliver forcefully or in a soft manner - for example the second line in the pallavi is an earnest appeal to Ganesha to bestow xxx. You sounded as if ordering Ganesha - give me this, else ....!

3. You missed the beat while coming back from anupallavi ; such lapses could be avoided if you practice always with thalam; but the good thing is that you yourself realized it and managed to correct it in a subtle and almost unnoticable manner.

4. It is not necessary to adorn every sangathi with brigas. You may sing some in simple plain manner - for example ........

5. While singing the long passages in charanam you experienced breathlessness. Get some expert advice on diet and breathing exercises.

6. On the whole it was good and all the best.

Such a response from the judges would be more acceptable and beneficial than their pronouncing first prize etc. - with or without bias.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Feb 2009, 17:04

Shanmukhapriya wrote:I'm writing this post to invite some thoughts on something that I noticed a few days ago, and not to create any unnecessary controversy.... ...

Have to admit that, the minute I read this I thought, "No chance!" Even in the face of the best intentions, the word "competition" is guaranteed to get us going!

What a 'pavlovian' bunch we are are, eh?

Not that I am saying that those who criticize competitions are necessarily wrong, either in principle or in detail. I have always disliked competition; by definition it creates few winners and many loosers. Of course, that I dislike some human traits does not at all mean that I claim to be free of them; far from it!

I've enjoyed taking part in competition, and I have enjoyed winning too! I can say, to my credit, that I didn't mind losing, especially when I knew I'd messed up. I may have been over 40 at the time ("over 18s age group") so might have been expected to bring a little more maturity to the stage, but hey, in that situation I think we are all kids again.

I do think that most children are capable of dealing with losing, and, even if it stings for a day or two, they soon bounce back. Much depends on the parents: it may well be that dealing with the parents' expectation is harder than dealing with the lack of a prize. And it is the parents' expectation that leads to the gossip, the rumours, the jealousies, the backstabbing.

Again, I am not saying that all those rumours and accusations are false. But, if we play to enjoy and experience, as M-kid says, then what does it matter!

As someone once replied to a child's cry of "It's not fair!", No, it isn't, and life is like that, so live with it! Good education, these competitions!

If organisers, parents and judges can work towards all competitions being fair, that's wonderful...

Tulip · Post by **Tulip** » 14 Feb 2009, 19:41

delete

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 14 Feb 2009, 20:12

deleted

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 14 Feb 2009, 20:55

nick H wrote:
Shanmukhapriya wrote:I'm writing this post to invite some thoughts on something that I noticed a few days ago, and not to create any unnecessary controversy.... ...
Have to admit that, the minute I read this I thought, "No chance!" Even in the face of the best intentions, the word "competition" is guaranteed to get us going!

What a 'pavlovian' bunch we are are, eh?

Not that I am saying that those who criticize competitions are necessarily wrong, either in principle or in detail. I have always disliked competition; by definition it creates few winners and many loosers. Of course, that I dislike some human traits does not at all mean that I claim to be free of them; far from it!

I've enjoyed taking part in competition, and I have enjoyed winning too! I can say, to my credit, that I didn't mind losing, especially when I knew I'd messed up. I may have been over 40 at the time ("over 18s age group") so might have been expected to bring a little more maturity to the stage, but hey, in that situation I think we are all kids again.

I do think that most children are capable of dealing with losing, and, even if it stings for a day or two, they soon bounce back. Much depends on the parents: it may well be that dealing with the parents' expectation is harder than dealing with the lack of a prize. And it is the parents' expectation that leads to the gossip, the rumours, the jealousies, the backstabbing.

Again, I am not saying that all those rumours and accusations are false. But, if we play to enjoy and experience, as M-kid says, then what does it matter!

As someone once replied to a child's cry of "It's not fair!", No, it isn't, and life is like that, so live with it! Good education, these competitions!

If organisers, parents and judges can work towards all competitions being fair, that's wonderful...

Nick H, (notice I didn't say "sir" this time

)

The important question is however, did you enjoy winning when you knew you messed up?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Feb 2009, 22:15

Mridangamkid,
You are a philosopher too

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Feb 2009, 01:49

I lost when I messed up, and won on the occasion that I played best; it was pretty fair. All the contestants in the class were known to each other, and the winner was sure of pats on the back from fellows.

The day I won, I barely knew the judge at all. On the occasion I made a right mess of it, I knew the judge quite well!

I preferred to accompany and play in the ensemble entries --- rather than the solo stuff, after that.

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 15 Feb 2009, 07:33

nick H wrote:I lost when I messed up, and won on the occasion that I played best; it was pretty fair. All the contestants in the class were known to each other, and the winner was sure of pats on the back from fellows.

The day I won, I barely knew the judge at all. On the occasion I made a right mess of it, I knew the judge quite well!

I preferred to accompany and play in the ensemble entries --- rather than the solo stuff, after that.

Well I didn't mean you specifically, but in general,

Should a 'competitor" be happy if he or she didn't perform to their best, but still won? And should one be sad if he or she lost a competition, but knew deep down they performed to the best they can, and still didn't come up short.

Of course one would be happy to win a competition, however; if he or she played a sub-par performance (sub-par to their level at least), whether it be going off thalam for even a second, or coming off sruti, would he or she still be happy?

In my eyes, and I may very well be wrong, if the answer is yes, then that child cares about the prize more than the music, if the answer is no, then he or she cares more about the music, than the prize.

Just my 2 cents, is all.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 15 Feb 2009, 08:06

OK, my turn for motherhood (or fatherhood!) statements.

Competition can be a good or a bad thing depending on the temperament of the person competing.

In case of a child, it gets more tricky because the choice is sometimes made by parents, however much they may try to reassure themselves or others that "my child really wanted to enter the competition".

In general I find affluent middle-class parents in North America or India for that matter, very keen on raising kids who will go on to become highly competitive scholars and savants. However, it not very clear that they want their kids to be good, well-balanced, kind, considerate, original, thinking, compassionate, selfless, socially conscious people. In many cases, it may not be so. Without the latter set of qualities, all the scholarship and savanthood only results in pettiness. And pettiness is a very common Indian trait. It is our failure to rise above pettiness that prevents us from acting with integrity and/or doing the right thing under ALL circumstances.

Competition may actually be bad for certain kids. If the parents focused on the "kind, considerate, etc" part, then they will be listen to their child and do what's right by them instead of forcing them into paths that are totally unsuited. Other kids thrive on competition, whether they win or lose, and benefit from it.

Finally, a "smooth" path is not necessarily a good thing for every kid.

carnaticpriya · Post by **carnaticpriya** » 16 Feb 2009, 01:14

Shanmukhapriya wrote:I'm writing this post to invite some thoughts on something that I noticed a few days ago, and not to create any unnecessary controversy. Like many others, I think the organizers are doing a fabulous job of bringing such a grand music festival for us here in North America. Coming to the point, I was planning to register my 11-year old for the Cleveland Tyagaraja Aradhana competitions. There are 3 categories for the Kriti competitions - sub-junior for ages 6 to 9, junior for ages 10 to 14, and senior for ages 15 to 21. Now my intention is for my kid to use these competitions as an opportunity to practice well and build up some confidence. Like other parents, we'll be very happy if our kid wins any of the prizes, but we're not looking for that as a primary reason to go to Cleveland. Having said this, I find that the age grouping is a little on the unfair side. People can disagree with me, but I think that there is a huge maturity difference between a 10-year old and a 14-year old, both musically and mentally. Is it right to pit them against each other in a competitive setting? I would love to hear what others feel about this. If there are enough people who feel like I do, perhaps the organizers could rethink this and come up with a more equitable categorization?

The judges are big artists and i assume they are very much aware of this. Also, in the past,I have found the youngest kids in each of the group mostly win the prizes.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Feb 2009, 02:03

Wise words, Uday!

Mridangamkid, isn't it better to try one's best but not get too hung up on perfection? Of course, in a competition, technical mistakes is going to be points lost, and one should always aim for technical perfection.

Slightly offtopic, but a chance to get in one of my favourite quotes, heard in an interview decades ago, with an old jazz musician. He was asked if he made mistakes, and he replied that, yes, of course he did.

He went on to say that, "In music, there are two kinds of mistake: the regular kind ...and the kind that don't sound too good".

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Feb 2009, 02:28

Nick! Try
one where your good does not sound
and
where your sound is not good

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Feb 2009, 03:03

Absolutely, CML. Well put.

I have certainly experienced being unable to hear a performer's good, however good their sound ---and I refer to top professional, not to child.

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 16 Feb 2009, 03:51

nick H wrote:Wise words, Uday!

Mridangamkid, isn't it better to try one's best but not get too hung up on perfection? Of course, in a competition, technical mistakes is going to be points lost, and one should always aim for technical perfection.

Slightly offtopic, but a chance to get in one of my favourite quotes, heard in an interview decades ago, with an old jazz musician. He was asked if he made mistakes, and he replied that, yes, of course he did.

He went on to say that, "In music, there are two kinds of mistake: the regular kind ...and the kind that don't sound too good".

I believe this is where we differ,

Why play if you're not going to try to make it perfect? I'm certainly not saying that one should force them self to stay up all night in order to get what they play perfect, however if one isn't gong to try to be "perfect", what's the point of playing then?

shanks · Post by **shanks** » 16 Feb 2009, 07:43

Achieving perfection in playing or performing - is that something even possible? Determining that one has performed perfectly is highly subjective? Who is making the determination - the performer or the listener? These two are looking at the same performance with different lenses, backgrounds and expectations.

Personally, i don't believe it is possible for anyone musician to be delivering to perfection - there are way too many factors that make it practically impossible. The fact that a professional acknowledges and is aware that one makes mistakes is a trait that is probably more common than one would think.

In a improvisation based music, the chances of not making mistakes are pretty close to zero - unless the performer opens up boldly without worrying about mistakes, the imagination and experimentation that goes with it would suffer; in other words improvisation anymore after that.

My 2 cents or pennies or paisas

shanks · Post by **shanks** » 16 Feb 2009, 07:52

On the competition on the Cleveland Aradhana.

This topic is not new - comes year after year. Last year i had posted the numerous problems in the manner in which the event is conducted and various suggestions. I also volunteered to help the organization, but nothing came out of that in spite of my efforts. I don't believe that the aradhana committee has any interest in even improving the organization of the event nor care to take the feedback on the event in the right spirit.

In that context, i wanted to include a link to that thread;Interestingly enough, while the thread itself exists, the entire content of my post barring the first line has been deleted. I am quite surprised that the moderator has chosen to delete the content of the post. There was factual information and no content that would be objectionable by any standard (the follow up posts relating to comments on my post proves that). I would like to hear from the moderators the reason for cutting out the content.

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 16 Feb 2009, 09:08

shanks wrote:Achieving perfection in playing or performing - is that something even possible? Determining that one has performed perfectly is highly subjective? Who is making the determination - the performer or the listener? These two are looking at the same performance with different lenses, backgrounds and expectations.

Personally, i don't believe it is possible for anyone musician to be delivering to perfection - there are way too many factors that make it practically impossible. The fact that a professional acknowledges and is aware that one makes mistakes is a trait that is probably more common than one would think.

In a improvisation based music, the chances of not making mistakes are pretty close to zero - unless the performer opens up boldly without worrying about mistakes, the imagination and experimentation that goes with it would suffer; in other words improvisation anymore after that.

My 2 cents or pennies or paisas

Of course perfection isn't possible, there is ALWAYS room for improvement not matter how good one may be, that is the the point I was trying to get across (obviously I failed to do so).

This whole discussion started from one member asking a competition to be more "fair". With that, what I'm trying to explain is, one should sing/play for them self, and not try to compare to others, regardless of who your trying to compare to.

This is where the "perfection" point comes in. One should TRY to achieve perfection in their music (obviously impossible IMO), and keep trying to one-up them self, rather than a competitor. If one does this then, he or she (in my opinion of course) will have a better understanding of what level he or she is at.

I think I just confused myself as much as I confused you... let me try this again

Let's say I'm at this competition. I practiced for months and am positive I got my performance down pat. I go to the competition, and find out there are 10 other competitors ranging in age. While I'm on stage, I perform my piece, but I messed up more than I normally do and I know for a fact I didn't play to my capabilities. I felt horrible for the whole day knowing I didn't do well. The next day I go to the prize distrabution, and it turned, I was the best performer of the 10.

Should I be happy now because I got first prize... or should I be disappointing in myself because I knew I could have done better.

Likewise - I go to that same competition with the same 10 competitors. I perform my best, I was surprised that I did so well because it was the best I have ever done. I felt great for the rest of the day because I was proud of how well I did. "Unfortunately", there were 3 other students who were more advanced and did more complicated things than I did and also did not make any mistakes and they got the first three prizes.

Should I be really sad because I didn't get a medal/trophey? or should I be happy because I performed as well as I could have and then some?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Feb 2009, 11:53

I am quite surprised that the moderator has chosen to delete the content of the post. There was factual information and no content that would be objectionable by any standard (the follow up posts relating to comments on my post proves that). I would like to hear from the moderators the reason for cutting out the content.

shanks, I do not think it is the moderators' doing. Due to some issues when the forum software was upgraded, many posts got corrupted. If you provide the link to the post in this thread http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... reads.html , the admin may be able to restore it.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 16 Feb 2009, 12:12

Shanks,

VK is perfectly right, there has been some data corruption since we upgraded to the new version, and no non-objectionable content is deleted. It will be a while till "all" these are corrected, but if something needs to be corrected urgently, please give a shout in the thread which VK has linked above.

That said, moderators are themselves long-time members and they know what is best for the forum. They can and will enforce a level of discipline so things don't get out of hand on the forum. Anyone who feels a moderator's specific action isn't proper, may contact me through the forum mail.

I would like to sound a general note of warning to everyone to please use civil language or risk your posts being edited or being blocked from editing altogether. Thanks for the understanding.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 16 Feb 2009, 17:15

Nick,

One of my mum's favorite quotations, which she scribbles everywhere, is the second verse from the poem below. I highly recommend it for every parent

.

I

My fairest child, I have no song to give you;
No lark could pipe to skies so dull and grey:
Yet, ere we part, one lesson I can leave you
For every day.

II

Be good, sweet maid, and let who will be clever;
Do noble things, not dream them, all day long:
And so make life, death, and that vast for-ever
One grand, sweet song.

-- Charles Kingsley

tnsfanatic · Post by **tnsfanatic** » 18 Feb 2009, 04:00

makham wrote:Every competition in every field is accompanied by subjective considerations - it is inevitable and sometimes desirable because trying to quantify unquantifiable factors may be misleading. How about judges who go overboard to display their impartiality and not select a participant for a prize for the only reason that he/she is his student?

Why not eliminate the concepts of "competition" and winning a prize etc. Even if the competition is conducted in the fairest manner possible, the losers feel discouraged. It is better to treat these events as opportunities to get feedback. The judges may give feedback structured on several dimensions. Based on these it would be obvious to the participants as to where they are strong and where they need to improve. This would eliminate the psychological aspects and pre-emptive pessimisms about the fairness.

I am not sure where this entire discussion is going, but I just want to share my honest opinion on the subject of competitions. Competitions have a detrimental side, which you have presented, makham. However, it is important to acknowledge the benefits of competitions. The entire Cleveland Aradhana presents an opportunity for children (born and brought up in America like me) to learn the great art of our forefathers; in other words, an art that will tether them to their own South Indian cultures. We should see the Cleveland Aradhana not as an evil driving force bent on hurting children's feelings through selective prize distribution but rather as the ultimate motivator. Think about it; kids practice endlessly for the competition. The competition thereby works as a motive for children to practice hard and to hoan their skills. Without the prize incentive, it would be quite difficult to gather so many people from around the country for one weekend (competition + prize distribution).

Personally, what drives me to continue competing is the fact that I have made many friends. The common interest of Carnatic Music serves as a platform and if it were not for the competition, there would not be a chance for kids to meet kids in similar situations with similar talents. An innate rivalry exists, but it is healthy. When a friend wins a prize over another friend, the two do not de-friend each other, but rather the latter congratulates the first and works even harder in the hopes of giving an more memorable performance next year.

True, competitions should not be the only motivators, but they work as starting points. After a firm interest is developed, children will be motivated to perform concerts (when given the opportunity) and will learn to appreciate the music and its history (SSI, MMI, ARI, LGJ,etc.). Great musicians can be molded through these competitions. Sure the Aradhana only awards the best, but more importantly it promotes the art of carnatic music, allows kids to actually perform and show off many of the skills they have attained in their personal practice, and is greatly responsible for the preservation of Carnatic Music in North America.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Feb 2009, 05:00

I am not sure where this entire forum is going

?? Why such a sweeping observation with a heavy sigh ('angalAippu'?) about the whole forum when the discussion is about a specific topic, namely, CM competitions?

tnsfanatic · Post by **tnsfanatic** » 18 Feb 2009, 05:51

vasanthakokilam wrote:
I am not sure where this entire forum is going
?? Why such a sweeping observation with a heavy sigh ('angalAippu'?) about the whole forum when the discussion is about a specific topic, namely, CM competitions?

i actually only wrote about the topic of competitions and my reply was based on refuting the response of another individual. i accidentally used the word "forum" instead of "discussion". sorry about that.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Feb 2009, 05:56

Ok, got it. No problems.

vganesh · Post by **vganesh** » 18 Feb 2009, 09:58

True, competitions should not be the only motivators, but they work as starting points. After a firm interest is developed, children will be motivated to perform concerts (when given the opportunity) and will learn to appreciate the music and its history (SSI, MMI, ARI, LGJ,etc.). Great musicians can be molded through these competitions. Sure the Aradhana only awards the best, but more importantly it promotes the art of carnatic music, allows kids to actually perform and show off many of the skills they have attained in their personal practice, and is greatly responsible for the preservation of Carnatic Music in North America.

Very true. You feel more close to your home when you are away. It is nice to see such kind of reception for CM across the globe. When I read the novel "namesake", I felt very sad because it may not be a reality always. It is like slumdog millionire Or somebody calling India as " country of snake charmers"

It is a fact that, If you are really talented nobody can stop you. Hence compettions are only medium to sociliase and bring out the excellenet with in us. End of the day you have a choice to participate or not.

makham · Post by **makham** » 18 Feb 2009, 11:01

I use the trick of going to the other extreme on issues to bring out all dimensions of the issue so that at the end we land in a middle path.

I totally agree with tnsfanatic about the socializing and networking opportunity that events such as the one under discussion provide. The opportunity of a platform with a good gathering of rasikas is indeed welcome. I was only concerned that "winning the prize" becomes the most potent driver in these. Peer recognition in the form of a prize will have enhanced value when it is accompanied by detailed feedback as described another forumite. We need to do the right things ( I have no data to doubt this) but it is better that in addition we are also seen to be doing the right things.

shanks · Post by **shanks** » 19 Feb 2009, 17:43

srkris,
thanks for clarification on the data loss. i understand.

Shanks