Carnatic vocal music with a muted/absent violin

Satish · Post by **Satish** » 19 Feb 2009, 22:47

I am very much drawn by the music of the human voice. I listen to Carnatic vocal music primarily for that reason. Hindustani vocal music--khayal and dhrupad especially--also appeals to me and perhaps has an edge over Carnatic (for me) since the voice is even more dominant there than in Carnatic.

However, and I speak for me and only me [see note below], I find the pitch of the violin detracts from the quality of the human voice. I have tried hard but failed to come to terms with appreciating the violin's role and presence in Carnatic music. Except for rare instances where the violin is low-key and relatively muted I find it intrusive, even corrosive. I'd like the violin to play the role of say, the drone: in the background, low in profile and key. Or to be the equivalent of the harmonium in Hindustani music where the voice dominates, the accompanying instrument accompanies in a low-key, low profile manner.

Where in Carnatic vocal music can I experience the voice and primarily just the voice? i.e., the violin is absent or low in profile.
Padams and javalis come closer to that than say the kritis but could I be missing others?
What did Carnatic vocal music sound like before the violin was introduced? Where can I find that sound?

Note: I have a hearing disability and wear hearing aids which, I'm sure, affect how I hear the violin. That said...I didn't quite appreciate the violin even before the onset of my hearing problems!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 20 Feb 2009, 00:44

I love the violin in vocal concerts --- but could have written just as you did about its use in Veena concerts! I really do not feel that the sound of plucked veena and bowed violin compliment each other.

I'm luckier, of course, in that unaccompanied veena is quite common, whereas unaccompanied vocal, in public performance, must be very rare.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 20 Feb 2009, 07:59

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 20 Feb 2009, 20:27

Satish, just joking:
Maybe you should listen to the Silent Violin!!(that violin found by Sri Embar Kannan)

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 20 Feb 2009, 21:04

Satish tells us of his hearing disability, and this may indeed have a bearing.

I might have to ask you to repeat several times the words you have just said into my ear, yet I will be among the first to complain of over-amplification, and I will hold my hands over my ears to shut out the noise of a police siren as it causes me pain.

Ears that work perfectly are a blessing: ears that do not can play all sorts of tricks.

Satish · Post by **Satish** » 20 Feb 2009, 21:27

Ok, will check out the Silent Violin! Speaking of Embar Kannan I heard him when he accompanied Sudha Raghunathan and, on another occasion, Sowmya and he was good in that he complemented and didn't try to overwhelm the vocalist. I maintain however the music would have been far more pleasant absent the violin!

Nick, a 'tricky' process called "recruitment" as it applies to hearing explains why loud noises (e.g., over-amplified sound) or certain frequencies (e.g., sirens) cause you pain when you otherwise have to ask others to repeat themselves. It is my prediction that with the noise pollution that is all too common in India along with the myriad other factors--stress, genetics, iPods and such, etc--we will see a much larger number of people with hearing problems down the road in the Indian music audience.

Oh well, perhaps in my time Carnatic music will evolve (or devolve back into) something, a particular form, where the voice is all, the violin if present at all registers no more than the tampura or (in Hindustani) harmonium.

money · Post by **money** » 20 Feb 2009, 22:33

Satish should listen to the home recordings of some big name musicians without accompaniments and then form an opinion. They will sound like novices.
A katcheri without violin and only mirdangam is a bhajanai performance.
If Satish likes this then he should prefer bhajanais to katcheris.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 20 Feb 2009, 23:09

@ money

No, kucheris and bhajanais are distinguished by the kind of music performed, not the kind of instruments used.

I somehow don't like this special position of accompaniment given to one instrument (violin). I'd rather unaccompanied concerts were given as well as concerts accompanied by other instruments, even singers. I think vocal musicians and all instrumentalists should have more or less the same position and previliges.

Yes, just like unaccompanied violins, I think there should also be unaccompanied vocal concerts, flute concerts and so on.

Satish · Post by **Satish** » 20 Feb 2009, 23:12

Funny thing is, I have already done (and for some time now) what Money suggests: listen to recordings of big name musicians where their voice and singing dominates and the violin is a low-key accompaniment and in some cases, even absent. E.g., Musiri singing Pahi Ramachandra, KVN and Arunachalanadam, etc. Their voice, the swara kalpanas, the neravals, and so on were simply divine. I didn't feel the violin, in its absence or low profile, detracted from the quality of the music at all. And no, they didn't sound like novices at all to me. In every way it was music of the highest order.

I don't buy the argument that Carnatic music without a violin is a bhajanai. Imagine Carnatic music before the violin made its advent. Did it lack the complexity, intricacy, or the richness it has today in the vocals? Was it nothing more than just bhajanais?

If one were to consider a spectrum wrt richness and complexity, bhajanais and shlokams/stothrams at one end and kritis at the other end (with neravals, etc.), isn't there a space for one gets the complexity and intricacy present in a kriti but where the violin is absent or low in profile?

Hindustani music, which shares a common foundation with Carnatic, has it and doesn't lack in quality or creativity. Where in Carnatic can I find it?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Feb 2009, 23:20

satish,

You cannot find what is not there (atleast in concerts)

! Anyway, the concept of accompaniment obviously attracted the support of its consumers and hence it has reached to this level.

Your problem seems lot to do with your physiology and psychology rather than something inherently wrong with the concept of carnatic accompaniments. What is some one else cannot stand the "intrusiveness" of tampura? Anyway, one possibility is to use Audacity to "edit out" most of the violin parts or say play around with frequency filters. It will be less than perfect but maybe better for you (it also requires a lot of time

).

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Feb 2009, 00:05

Imagine Carnatic music before the violin made its advent. Did it lack the complexity, intricacy, or the richness it has today in the vocals?

Satish: I know you asked that rhetorically but it is still worth pondering. When I listen to some really old recordings of vocals, the intricasies in terms of certains gamakams are absent, they sound quite rough. A case in point is Nannu Palimpa of an yesteryear great from the early days of recording, it is quite a different mohanam, much rougher and lacking in many of the Mohanam gamakams that we are used to today. Of course, I can not claim for sure that the violin accompaniment contributed to the adoption of those gamakams but we can not rule it out either. It is a complex process of mutual influence by which the practise of music evolves over time.

Satish · Post by **Satish** » 21 Feb 2009, 01:43

Can someone explain why gamakams influenced by the violin can't be delivered without the violin's presence? Surely gamakams influenced by the veena, arguably more (South) Indian and even more influential than the violin, are delivered without requiring the veena's presence on stage.

Put another way, my original question is: the veena has no place today in the Carnatic vocalist's stage. Why then do we require the violin's presence?

My (mild) hearing loss aside my original posting was prompted by a feeling that there must be others that share my penchant for hearing the human rendered as a musical instrument. Undiluted by the violin. Accompanied only by the barest minimum e.g., mridangam or tabla for the beat, tampura or sruti-box for sruti. I realize that goes counter to the crowd (and when it comes to India, we are talking zillions) and I have no alternative today than to accept the status quo. As Arun says, we have what have today because the consumers and masses are comfortable with the violin's presence. Who knows, maybe downstream we'll have the sax competing with the violin and vocalist!

Today in Carnatic music we have violin, flute, veena, even saxaphone performances where that emphasis is on that instrument and its performer and there's no contention with other instruments/performers. Perhaps one day we'll have vocal performances with just the mridangam and tampura for beat and sruti and without the violin accompaniment. That way we'll appreciate the voice in all its splendor, much as we do in Hindustani music. A matter of time...and hopefully soon. I don't think I speak only for myself and I'm sure Srikant (among others) will be in the audience as well.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 21 Feb 2009, 01:47

I hear the (ghastly) harmonium in hindustani music concerts - as much as I hear violin (maybe even more) in CM concerts. And it doesnt bother me (and trust me, I despise the harmonium as much as you do the violin). So perhaps you just have to "get over it"

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Feb 2009, 02:06

Satish: My point was more a technical one on that narrow issue.

I do not want to generalize all violin accompanists but I am with you to some extent on the vocal alapana. When I am focussing on the vocalist's ideas and thoughts during the alapana, the vionist sort of completes the thought which is annoying. During the song, with good violin accompanists, I barely notice the violin because they are so one with the vocalist and I think it adds to the overall sound color and texture which is good from my point of view. I adore the violin when their turn comes during Alapana and during niraval and kapanaswarams. That back and forth dynamic is something we do not want to get rid of, it is too precious.

It will be interesting to hear a full vocal alapana without violin.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 21 Feb 2009, 02:45

I think I have a glance of what is being said now!

I too love the violin's alapana turn, even on occasions, enjoying it more than the preceding vocal --- but reading vasanthakokilam's post makes me realise that I do find some of the violin "fillers" during alapana to be intrusive, or, at least, unnecessary.

Afterthought... I don't mean the fillers where the vocalist simply wants to take a breath, I mean the moments in his/her alapana that might be better silent, rather than filled by the violin

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 21 Feb 2009, 06:29

I agree that the violin sometimes takes away from the vocal effort. I too enjoy some silence between vocal phrases in the alapanai, and although it's technically laudable for the violinist to replay the sangathi exactly, I think it's unnecessary sometimes. But I also think the violin enhances and inspires the vocalist much more than it detracts from his/her music, i.e. violinist maintaining a long mandra sthayi bowing of the note the vocalist is holding on the higher octave, etc. One place I think the violin can definitely interrupt the music is during krithi renditions, where each vocalist has different nuances for the same krithi and the violinist plays according to his own style, and the synchronicity just isn't there. This is especially evident when the vocalist is singing a composition the violinist does not know and the violinist tries his best to keep up but ends up playing wrong notes here and there and then I really get irritated. That said, I cannot imagine doing without violin accompaniment in vocal concerts because it adds much more value to the concert than it removes! I really cannot picture vocalists just singing passage after passage of swaras by themselves, or singing a fast neraval sequence without the violinist cut bowing on the central note in the background, etc...

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 21 Feb 2009, 06:50

bilahari wrote:I really cannot picture vocalists just singing passage after passage of swaras by themselves, or singing a fast neraval sequence without the violinist cut bowing on the central note in the background, etc...

To get the requisite relaxation (though solo violinists and vainikas are never asking for it, somehow), there can be two singers, exchanging neravals and swarams, etc.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 21 Feb 2009, 09:03

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 21 Feb 2009, 09:51

I was thinking of the same thing a couple of days back, and Satish's first post here comes as a deja-vu for me, for I wanted to raise the same topic here too.

I like to hear the violin separately, vocals separately, but when they both perform at the same time, as in kritis, also in alapanas, I dont particularly relish the mix.

The violin still appears to me to be "a foreign presence" in a carnatic vocal concert. Concerts where the violinist is the main performer are fine though.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 21 Feb 2009, 09:57

coolkarni wrote: It is here that the so called next rung vilionists come to mind ... Usha Rajagopalan , Nagai Muralidharan ,Thirupparkadal Veeraraghavan....

Well, Cool ji..but I would think the three artistes you've mentioned have rather different methods

but maybe its just me!

Sathej

Satish · Post by **Satish** » 21 Feb 2009, 10:00

srikant1987 wrote:
bilahari wrote:I really cannot picture vocalists just singing passage after passage of swaras by themselves, or singing a fast neraval sequence without the violinist cut bowing on the central note in the background, etc...
To get the requisite relaxation (though solo violinists and vainikas are never asking for it, somehow), there can be two singers, exchanging neravals and swarams, etc.

Nor, if I may point out, do vocalists in the Hindustani tradition ask for it, engage as they do too in equally fabulous exercises involving the voice. There's no violin to give them a break after their alaap and that doesn't seem to hurt them either.

What a delight it is to hear two singers, exchanging neravals and swarams, without the violin rearing its head! A special rare treat when the vocalists are of opposite genders as have been some (rare) recordings of Charumati and Trichur Ramachandran. One of my favorites is their rendition of Ilalo Pranatarti in Atana. What joy!

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 21 Feb 2009, 10:07

Srikant, that's an interesting concept. Maybe the duos should try a concert or two without the violin. Satish, do you not object to the mrudangam?!

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 21 Feb 2009, 10:30

The inherent nature of Carnatic music, which is "Manodharma-driven", makes it difficult to achieve synchronization (on which subject there has been some discussion here lately), which would probably explain Satish's grouse about the violin's (sometimes) intrusive presence.

Not a few would feel the same way even if the Veena were the primary accompanying instrument.

The reason why Coolji liked his experience at Sri NSG's house was most likely because NSG was playing the Veena himself.

Similarly if we could listen to an artist singing and playing the violin at the same time, we may like it much better, because of WYSIWYP (What you sing is what you play), to paraphrase a similar usage in modern day computing

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 21 Feb 2009, 10:42

Good point, Girish.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 21 Feb 2009, 10:45

Continuing, one of the things that I don't like accompanying violinists doing is that during Swaras, they do not wait for the leading musician (vocalist or instrumentalist) to completely sing or render the anchor-phrase at the end of each swara cycle.

It is a little irritating not to be able to savour the full melody of the music, when, for example, the violinist takes off even while the vocalist is still at "Vatapi Ga"...the incomplete phrase leaves you somewhat unsatisfied.

shanks · Post by **shanks** » 21 Feb 2009, 19:38

There was an article in 'Sruti' (the magazine) a few months ago questioning the role of violin as an accompaniment in a manner lot more than the harmonium accompaniment in HM. It was a very an interesting article starting with the roots how this practice may have started and where it is today - painted the picture both in terms of positives and the negatives. Sruti seems to have changed its online model - could not find it on their website.

girish-a wrote: It is a little irritating not to be able to savour the full melody of the music, when, for example, the violinist takes off even while the vocalist is still at "Vatapi Ga"...the incomplete phrase leaves you somewhat unsatisfied.

In swara patterns within a single avarthanam of the talam, when the vocalist sings some patterns the take-off or starting point becomes pretty important and hence the violist has no choice but to start even before the vocalist has finished. By the way, the vocalist starts off without waiting for the violist to complete too - but this is seldom noticed.

money · Post by **money** » 21 Feb 2009, 19:57

It is a good question as to what was done before arrival of violin in concerts. I have several times asked this to a few musicologist friends.They say that wind instruments like flute was used. Veena was also used occasionally, but wind instrument was preferred because of the continuity of sound produced which helped to fill the gap in the vocalist singing and provided a continuous background.Gaps while singing can be very distracting both to the singer and the listener. Such silences in between can also affect the manodharma of the artist.
Violin scored when it came on the scene perhaps because it had a rich tonal quality as well as produced continuous and uninterrupted sound. Flute again depended on the blowing ability of the player for a continuous sound. Another aspect of the flute is that many a time there is a slight sruti variation in the hands of not so accomplished player, which could affect an artist who has sruti sudham singing and hurt sensitive ears badly.
Veena being a plucked instrument possibly was given up at some point of time for want of tonal continuity.
Surely there must have been many more virtues in the violin which made the musicians opt for it in the first place, to replace whatever was there at that time.
Question being raised is whether violin is required at all, inspite of whatever virtues it has.Well there are many answers depending on ones preferences and choices. There may be some who do not prefer the mridangam as the beats interfere with the voice, as anything accompanying the voice is a distraction if it is not accepted by the ear.
Satish should excuse me if he is a concert vocalist.It seems that many leading vocalist of the day desire only a subdued violinist and accompanists are told quite clearly they should play only a second or third fiddle. The day may not be far off when he can look forward to enjoy concerts without the disturbing violin.
Finally why not a keyboard instead of the violin as it can play any instument of ones choice?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 21 Feb 2009, 20:16

It is true that I find the violin mostly is subdued --- if not by its player, then by the sound engineer!

suma · Post by **suma** » 21 Feb 2009, 20:50

Violin can either add value or ruin the concert depending on the violinist. Traditionally, violin is supposed to be used as an extension of the voice. When the vocalist is singing upper stai phrases in a krithi and cant hold long enough due to breathe, that's where the violinist comes in. Also, after a big swaram when the vocalist comes back to the starting line of the krithi from where he started his swaram, violinist blends in and picks up, thereby giving the vocalist time to breathe and think of the next set of swarams. During a krithi rendition, if the padatram is same, violinist would add a lot of value. If it is different, then, the violinist is supposed to give a supportive blend and not dominate with a different padantram. If a violinist balances himself and blends in with a vocalist, it would be very enjoyable. If he tries to outsmart the main artist, he will bring down the entire concert. There are instances where a violinist actually elevates a vocalist when the vocalist makes mistakes by covering up. Recently, I went to Vedavalli mami's concert in the season. A very well established violinist accompanied. He played very soft throughout the concert. That in itself is an art to play "very soft". After the concert, I called him up and asked why did you play so soft? He said, "you must never dominate the main artist. If the artist is singing soft, you should not interrupt by playing loud."

Bottomline, the violinist can either add value or disrupt a concert. The correct balance comes through experience and guidance from the teacher.

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 21 Feb 2009, 21:28

The "proof of the pudding" in this case is in "the serving". Of late ( I do not wish to name them) many popular accompanists, be it violinist or mridangist, DEMAND that their playing be amplified more and more to such an extent as to DROWN the main artist ! This leads to almost "chaos in the concert". If the accompanists realize that their role is to ACCOMPANY and not DOMINATE, then much of the problem being discussed here will disappear. I do appreciate the role of violin accompaniment, and in many instances I have been able to identify difficult ragas in AlApanai only AFTER listening to the viloin response. Thus the violin accompaniment could be a boon or a bane !

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Feb 2009, 22:49

in many instances I have been able to identify difficult ragas in AlApanai only AFTER listening to the viloin response.

Yes, same with me on many occasions.

Regarding the duo concerts ( xyz brothers, abc sisters etc. ), yes it provides each one with some breathing room but from a musical aspect, since they know each other so well and probably they learnt from the same guru, their approach to music tends to be in the same neighborhood. Whereas with seasoned violinists, having accompanied so many different musicians from various bANis and schools, they provide a rich variation. This is amply evident during alapana as well as the kalpanaswara.

So the only three changes I would suggest is

a) Do not complete the thought of the main artist during alapana
b) Play softly and not overwhelm the main artist.
c) During manodharma related sections during the song, stay out as much as possible and wait for your turn. ( providing support during kArvai is fine )

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 21 Feb 2009, 22:57

Good points VK- (c) is especially important for me because I hate the interference when violinists try to play along with the kalpana swaras and mostly have a time delay and get it wrong! They should just hold sa-pa-sa and wait, but that is what most of them do anyway. I generally think that many violinists we have today are aware of what it means to accompany and are not usually intrusive. So credit has to be given. And they do inspire the vocalist as well, and to what heights! The way Mysore Nagaraj kept spurring Sanjay on in the Vani Mahal concert last year is an indicator of how much the violinist can elevate a concert.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Feb 2009, 00:00

VK, Bilahari and Girish,
All of you have echoed my feelings about how the violin can be a help or hindrance to the vocalist. anuSaraNai is the key. One who lacks it sounds as if he is interfering with the vocalist--taking over from him mid-sangati sometimes.
Yes, while playing along with a kruti, I appreciate minimum playing from the violinist. If sangatis differ and he plays along all the time, it sounds as if the violin lacks melody. I don't like violinists who 'lead' the vocalist either, however proficient they are.

Satish · Post by **Satish** » 22 Feb 2009, 00:09

To answer the question posed me I have no problems with the mridangam or tampura sharing the stage (and my attention span) with the vocalist. In most cases they are in the background and don't jump out (barring the occasional mridangam player or two!) More important I see them serving a purpose in the delivery of the music: the mridangam player serves to keep the beat and the tampura player the sruti (so the vocalist and the audience can lose themselves in the voice and music with the beat and sruti in the background). I don't see the violin player serving any such primary purpose that aids the vocalist in the delivery of the his/her talent and the music. And what's not needed, if maintained (and powered by the human mind!), will only interfere. As it does.

suma wrote:...When the vocalist is singing upper stai phrases in a krithi and cant hold long enough due to breathe, that's where the violinist comes in. Also, after a big swaram when the vocalist comes back to the starting line of the krithi from where he started his swaram, violinist blends in and picks up, thereby giving the vocalist time to breathe and think of the next set of swarams. ...

Funny how Hindustani vocal performers don't need the violin or other instrument to "give them time to breathe and think of the next set of swarams." I argue the violin has been wrongly placed in the Carnatic vocalist's stage and aside from detracting from the music, serves to the counter-purpose of the vocalist's development. Without recourse to the violin's relief the Carnatic vocalist will pay more attention to the development of their voice culture in their training, allowing them to hit what they need to on their own without the assistance of the violin or other instrument, as do Hindustani vocalists. The audience will also pay and appreciate the voice more, not distracted by the violin's virtuosities in what is a vocal performance. And those vocalists whose voices are superior musically will stand out from the rest....

And the violin performers can stage their own performances where the equivalent will apply. Who can persuade me to believe this is not in the interests of Carnatic music, the performers, the audience, ...?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Feb 2009, 00:57

Satish: While I see the forceful points you are making which are all quite valid, I do not understand why you are taking a strong stance against violin itself as an accompaniment. Sure, a vocal concert without violin can be quite interesting and has all the benefits you point out quite well, we do not want to get rid of it summarily from the CM concert stage. Its presence definitly adds to the color and texture of music and adds a significant level of dynamism. So let us add and not substract. I do emphathise with you that there are not that many opportunities for you to listen to a CM concert without violin. ( btw, this incessant comparison with HM vocalist is getting quite tiresome ).

But if you aruge that over a period of time, CM vocalists' voice culture has deteriorated due to the violin, that is an interesting debate point. I think the opposite has happened but I do not know for sure. It is worth a healthy debate.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 22 Feb 2009, 01:15

Satish, I think you're exclusively concerned about the negatives of the violin as an accompanying instrument. If indeed you see nothing positive in it, I'm rather sorry for you because I do not see the violin vanishing from the CM scene in the near future. Maybe you would be happier sticking to HM which is clearly near and dear to your heart.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 22 Feb 2009, 01:20

Also Satish, I really don't believe the mrudangam functions to simply keep the beat in a concert, especially since the vocalist is well able to keep tala by him/herself. And with the advent of an electronic tambura/ shruti box, there is no need for a tambura player either. Strictly speaking, accompanists do not serve any specific necessary function in a vocal concert so the vocalist can well sit alone on stage with the electrical tambura and sing by him/herself.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Feb 2009, 01:26

Bilahari, that brings to mind vividly children singing in the tygaraja utsavam festivals in the U.S.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 22 Feb 2009, 01:30

VK, it was PRECISELY the image with which I wrote that sentence! I would never pay money to attend a vocal concert without the violin/mrudangam.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Feb 2009, 01:33

I argue the violin has been wrongly placed in the Carnatic vocalist's stage and aside from detracting from the music, serves to the counter-purpose of the vocalist's development.

Well well well - this is indeed a far cry from your very first post in this thread. Now, you are basically trying to find "logical" (as in non-emotional) justifications for your strong preferences - nothing unusual (as I find all of us doing that one time or the other).

Arun

suma · Post by **suma** » 22 Feb 2009, 02:03

bilahari wrote:VK, it was PRECISELY the image with which I wrote that sentence! I would never pay money to attend a vocal concert without the violin/mrudangam.

Me Too

)

suma · Post by **suma** » 22 Feb 2009, 02:04

vasanthakokilam wrote: Bilahari, that brings to mind vividly children singing in the tygaraja utsavam festivals in the U.S.

You Bet!

suma · Post by **suma** » 22 Feb 2009, 02:08

Anything in excess in bad.
Satish, may be you had a few bad experiences that make you to believe that Violin is bad in a concert.
I have seen and heard Vocal artists tell me that the Mridangist is distracting by experimenting wrong korvai's and they had to concentrate on their talam and song to keep up the concert.

I think the "key" is team spirit. If their is understanding between accompanists and vocalist, the overall outcome will be good. May be if the vocalist tags along with a certain violinist and mridangist for a few concerts in a year, then, they would get the feel for each other and deliver a very good concert.

lifeisasong · Post by **lifeisasong** » 22 Feb 2009, 02:32

Well, some of us North and West Indians brought up with Hindustani don't like the harmonium all that much! It can be fairly intrusive too, though it does depend on who is playing it. As far as I'm concerned, the more muted it is, the better. I prefer the violin because I think it's able to pick up the nuances of our music better. The dearth of support for the sarangi is to be greatly lamented, IMHO.

Satish, may I suggest Musicophilia by Oliver Sacks, if you haven't 't already read it, it has interesting sections on how people with hearing disabilities react to different sounds.

Satish · Post by **Satish** » 22 Feb 2009, 02:33

Ooops! My last post must have come stronger than I intended. It conveys my opinion (and I understand reasonable people can hold vastly different opinions) but can do better in its tone. Let me try again, please.

First I agree there's a place for the violin in the Carnatic world. In some cases, not as often as I'd like, it has "completed" the voice and offered the equivalent of "umami"; those instances are rare and less frequent as time goes by, as violinists see themselves as performers in their own right with tradition and training equivalent to the vocalists. So it's no surprise the violin often dominates, even distracts, from the vocalists performance and that, I believe and contend, is to the detriment of the vocalists tradition and development. In due time perhaps we'll see performances where the performers deliver their talent, voice or string or wind or other instrument, and the audience gets to enjoy/appreciate it without the distraction (or relief) of the other. Meanwhile I understand the violin is not going to get of the Carnatic vocalist's stage and I'll live with it (as I have for a while now; grumble mumble...!)

Second, the comparisons with the Hindustani tradition were well meant. Inarguable, as well (unless one takes the equivalent of the low road to ask that anyone that compares so stick to Hindustani music). If we are to appreciate the voice, and it is an important, even foremost , instrument in the Carnatic tradition we don't lose by exploring what it'd take to develop it further, who has done it (especially within the traditions of Indian music) and gone further down the road, all without the relief of accompanying instruments. Many of the positions taken to defend the violin on the Carnatic vocalist's stage are, I find, indefensible when one's perspective widens to include the Hindustani tradition.

Third, talam and sruti were elemental, as was the voice, to the Indian music tradition. Hence we have the instruments to provide/maintain the beat and sruti and they accompany the voice. They go back, way way back, than does the violin or veena or sax in accompanying the voice. So they don't seem to distract (unless of course the mridangam player wants to force himself onto the performance) And yes, as I mentioned earlier, the sruti-box does obsolete, and has already to a large extent, the tampura player. There was no storm over that, was there?

Factually, and please without resorting to personal slams, how can one argue that the Carnatic vocalist's voice development would be richer, better, etc. without the ready relief of the violin (or other instrument)? And why isn't that better for the tradition, the music, the audience, the performer...?

Lastly, don't we all find "logical" reasons to justify our preferences? Some prefer the status quo and would find the absence of the violin a shock; some would prefer change, even a throwback, and won't be shocked with the violin given a stage of its own. Each provides their own framework to support their position and there's nothing wrong with that and perhaps over time, the better framework wins (though that doesn't always happen.)

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Feb 2009, 03:09

Satish wrote:Funny how Hindustani vocal performers don't need the violin or other instrument to "give them time to breathe and think of the next set of swarams."

I may be wrong, especially as I hardly know Hindustani music, but I don't think they do anything approaching the depth and complexity of Carnatic swara kalpana. Moving on from that, I don't think carnatic musicians do need time to think of the next set; they are, simply, qualified at their job, and very well able, and prepared, to sing swaras in the ragas they themselves select. If they couldn't, the violin would be a huge distraction!

Improvisation only goes so deep. There may be moments of spontaneous inspiration, and I would argue that these are likely to be more given the violinist's presence --- as long as the violin does not just precisely parrot the vocalist. The violinist is the one thing that cannot be there in all the vocalist's practice, study and experimentation, and a good dialogue between vocalist and violin is a great thing to see and hear.

I argue the violin has been wrongly placed in the Carnatic vocalist's stage and aside from detracting from the music, serves to the counter-purpose of the vocalist's development.

Argue, by all means, but I think that you have moved away from valid points of personal preference into very unsound ground

Without recourse to the violin's relief the Carnatic vocalist will pay more attention to the development of their voice culture in their training

You mean like opera singers? Who have both a huge science and tradition of voice development --- and an orchestra, including a dozen violins, to both support them, and to provide a certain level of sound against which the singer must have the strength and projection to be heard.

allowing them to hit what they need to on their own without the assistance of the violin or other instrument, as do Hindustani vocalists.

No; sorry... if Carnatic tradition is week on voice training and development, and it has been said by many that it is, that is a problem with the tradition and practice of carnatic vocal music and its training --- to blame it on any other aspect of the music, or any other person on the stage, is just wrong

The audience will also pay and appreciate the voice more, not distracted by the violin's virtuosities in what is a vocal performance. And those vocalists whose voices are superior musically will stand out from the rest....

And the violin performers can stage their own performances where the equivalent will apply. Who can persuade me to believe this is not in the interests of Carnatic music, the performers, the audience, ...?

Well, nobody, probably, especially as you have now gone so far out in your premises.

Let vocalists be accompanied by nadaswaram --- then we shall have to see some strong voices being developed. And some strong ears in the audience!

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 22 Feb 2009, 07:26

The topic is quite valid in the present day when there exist many a violinist who does not care for the main artist and his method of manodharma. But to place the blame on violin itself or on the mridangam would be very short sighted. In the era when music concerts were held in not in concert halls but in houses and temples, the mridangam was there but the stringed instrument was not a necessity.

Just because people wanted to hear maestros like Thirukkodikkaval Krishna Iyer or Malikkottai Govindaswamy Pillai they were added in the concert. It is said that Krishna Iyer used to put his violin and the bow in a bag and go for the concert. From what I had read about him it appears that he had a fantastic speed but did not bother about the tonal beauty. The violin must have been harsh to hear but it passed off because there were no mikes to amplify them ! All the violins could be endured because of lack of microphones. Once the microphone came in people started to look for tonal beauty and that was what brought MSG, Lalgudi and TNK to the fore. The trio was known not only for tonal beauty but also for able, subdued accompaniment. They never crossed the limit in the early period in the 50s and 60s. While these were young boys, the musicians were elders and veterans. Dwaram had and excellent tone but by then the concert style had changed and the expectation on the violinist to produce gimmicks and intricate laya patterns had come about. So he was sidelined. Mysore Chowdaiah and Kumbakonam Rajamanicam Pillai had plenty of these and they also shined.

Had it not been for this trio, combined with the likes of Palght Mani Iyer and Palani Subbudu, CM would not have achieved the popularity that it enjoys today. ARI could not have modified the brisk paced concert pattern without the support of the instrumental accompanists. Apart from it, the interaction between the violinists and the vocalists provided were great examples of sharp memory, flash reaction, and ability to match the seniors swara to swara. This was one of the most attractive component of concerts in those days. There used to be fights (totally unexpected) between the violinist and the vocalist. I had seen Rajamaniccam Pillai and Chowdaih get into a clash with Madurai Mani Iyer when they disturbed the trend set up by MMI. The violinist continued in their own trend and MMI had to simply sit and watch. Many people have witnessed the clashes between Mali and the violinists. It is reported that in one concert Mali even took the violin from the violinist and completed the concert on the violin. All these events raised the interest of the public and induced them to attend the concert. It cannot be denied that the interaction between the accompanist is the element that had contributed to the popularity of CM among lay people. Listening to a vocalist without accompaniment is possible only for those with a good knowledge of CM.

With the advent of the micropone and the inability of the sabhas to maintain correct amplification of all participants, added with the fact that the violinist were more senior than the vocalists, set up a trend of the accompanists asking for greater amplification. In Hidustani music even though there was no such problem with the stringed accompaniments, there were very hot clashes over the volume of the Tabla. I have witnessed many concerts where the tabla sound drowned the voice.

What we require is not abolition of the violin, but accompanists of the caliber of MSG, Lalgudi and TNK. Sriramkumar is doing wonderful work as a subdued accompanist.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 22 Feb 2009, 07:43

It's unfortunate that several people paint such a pessimistic picture of current violinists. I, for one, have been very impressed by the able accompaniment of RKSK, Varadarajan, Charulatha Ramanujam, Embar Kannan, Padma Shankar, Lalgudi Vijayalakshmi, Sriram Parasuram, Narmada, and several others. I have not heard any one of the artistes I have mentioned, in any one concert, ever try to overwhelm the main artiste.

In any event, the original poster's original question was where he could find violin-less CM. The question has been answered early in the thread with suggestions that he listen to yesteryear recordings with low violin volume, use Audacity to mute the violin, etc.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 22 Feb 2009, 07:44

It is reported that in one concert Mali even took the violin from the violinist and completed the concert on the violin.

Wow!

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 22 Feb 2009, 07:48

Srikant, there are recordings on Sangeethapriya where Mali admonishes T Rukmini openly, and also a recording (Begada RTP) where he and TNK enagage in an extended verbal duel during thanam after each one tries to flummox the other with difficult glides traversing several octaves! He must've been a difficult artiste to play for.