Significant innovations in carnatic music

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 19 Feb 2009, 18:13

What were the pathbreaking innovations in carnatic music since the time of the Trinity? Have there been any during the last two decades?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 19 Feb 2009, 19:11

To me an earth shattering innovation was the move to the current concert format (paddhati) - The 'ARI' mArgam. Most other changes are probably small changes that become large when we look at them cumulatively.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 19 Feb 2009, 21:55

True the ARI format was path breaking but I remain unsure about whether it was a turn for the better...others:

Incorporation of western instruments although the process had begun around the trinity's time
Jugalbandis/other forms of connecting with HM
Use of technology - sharing, archiving, teaching, selling, talking about(!) music

Note - I am not saying that all of the above are 'positive"

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 19 Feb 2009, 21:58

Violin and ARI's Paddhati for sure.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 19 Feb 2009, 22:19

Lec-dems
Sabhas
Artiste blogs

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Feb 2009, 22:24

Tamizh isai and Kannada isai.
That is CM concerts entirely in languages other than Sanskrit or Telugu!
Singing of songs other than bhakti.
Proliferation of superb vaggeyakaras.
Women performing CM concerts (unthinkable in the 19th century!)
Admission of non-brahmins (non-hindus) in the CM fraternity of vocalists.

CM competitions as well as award ceremonies!
CM tutoring for CASH!

Margazhi Raagam! (Digital simulcasts..)

rasikas.org

Music · Post by **Music** » 19 Feb 2009, 22:32

CM concerts and aradhana utsavams in many countries outside of India
Rasika forums

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Feb 2009, 22:37

Mandolin, guitar, synthesizers, electronic Sruti boxes, tamburas.

In clothes:
For men: panca kaccam vEshTi replaced by taTTu SuTRu (wrap around dhoti). Shirts in different style (some in fine muslin, others in khadi, collared or round-necked) to kurtas--ranging from simple to flamboyant ones.

For women: simple saris to grander ones, ranging from somewhat grand to dazzling ones, and of curse, jewelry to match.

silver kUjAs (water jugs with lids) to thermos flasks, water bottles.

sridhar_ranga · Post by **sridhar_ranga** » 19 Feb 2009, 23:40

1. Full length whistle concert (is it vocal? instrumental?)
2. Listening to John Higgins/ now Wesleyan students singing Trinity Kritis in almost chaste sanskrit/telugu
3. Learning from my (brick and mortar? flesh and blood?) guru face-to-face on weekends, learning from (e-guru?) Shivakumar Kalyanaraman on iPod while driving to work on weekdays?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 20 Feb 2009, 00:04

In Kerala one can see two or three tutorial CM classes in every block either vocal or instrumental in all streets of major towns taught by hindus or christians. At one time, the teachers used to go each students' home; but now I believe it is conducted in a centralized location for several students together.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 20 Feb 2009, 00:23

sbala wrote:What were the pathbreaking innovations in carnatic music since the time of the Trinity? Have there been any during the last two decades?

since Trinity - Amplification, recording, sabhas
last two decades (or less) - skype, e-gurus, talameters, music blogs, USB devices and ports which allow one to listen to a streamed kutcheri during train travel while simultaneously enjoying a chill beverage

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 20 Feb 2009, 01:57

I think the topic is "Significant Innovations in Carnatic Music", so all the pattu dhotis, Ipods, file sharing won't qualify, because these represent CM's adaptations to external developments.

These are innovations in CM:
- Origin of a kutcheri
- ARI creating a new format was an innovation
- Violin taking a major role in Kutcheri instead of Veena
- Instrumental Solo Kutcheris (started with lalgudi)
- Multi-talented musicians (someone talented in CM & HM, or like BMK, who has given vocal & violin or TNS)
- Vaggeyakaras & performing musicians (GNB, MDR, BMK & Lalgudi)
- Evolution of different styles (ARI, MMI, SSI,etc)
- Musical Education (well-defined education like BA, MA in Universities and various Art Schools)
- Integration of Classical Dance & Carnatic Music
- Usage of other western instruments like Mandolin, Piano etc (i am not referring to Fusion Music here..)
- Artists reaching out to rasikas (through on stage questions, blogs or interviews)(IMO this is an innovation as a musician's
personality changes & there will be a reflection in his/her performance)
- Experimentation in Kutcheris (This is not something new, there are some musicians who dared to experiment within the boundaries of tradition & there are many who stuck onto the traditional path throughout their lives)..These are the greatest innovators.

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 20 Feb 2009, 02:01

Vidya Raja wrote:Yes electronic media has globalised carnatic music and brought everything at one's door step

yes, but that cannot be considered as an innovation in CM. When we can execute financial transactions electronically & share important documents, we use the same format in music sharing.

But, i would agree that the availability of concert lists out in the public on a consistent basis is definitely an innovation. Because a musician is(maybe) compelled not to repeat his/her ragams/kritis often.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Feb 2009, 04:16

>- Musical Education (well-defined education like BA, MA in Universities and various Art Schools)

Couple of sub-plots under music education.

1. The wide variety of people, male and female, from the populace at large from different backgrounds, community and culture learning CM is probably a phenomenon after CM got out of the sponsorship of Royalty and Zamindars. Punarvasu mentioned in a different thread that females learnt music to the extent that they can sing a song or two on pre-marriage events. I am curious if even that practise goes back 100-150 years or so.

2. Carnatic musicians having regular education in addition to music. That is probably a 20th century trend. I vaguely remember SSI mentioning that those who were dedicated to becoming music professionals did not even go to regular elementary or high schools.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Feb 2009, 04:36

In short Non-Gurukula vaasam!

suma · Post by **suma** » 20 Feb 2009, 04:43

All of the above, nice discussion

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 20 Feb 2009, 08:39

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Feb 2009, 08:57

Kadambam,
you are right. Some of the things we have spoken about have to do with 'newness' as well as innovations! But no big deal...

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 20 Feb 2009, 10:36

This review in today's Hindu caught my attention;
there will be more such events specialising in various aspects of CM-like pallavi singing; thani Avrtanam,neraval, jAwalis and padams,may be one dedicated to varnams completely.
Date:20/02/2009 URL: http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/fr/200 ... 240200.htm

The concept of dedicating a full cutcheri to just one ragam, one composer, etc are already in vogue.
CM may become an industry/profession- and may be there will be centarlised bodies /universities drawing out full fledged curriculam and traing students etc.
Also there may emerge training institutes for the 'technicians' -like people who repair veenas-(mELam kaTTUbavargaL'), the mridangam, thambura and other instrument repairers etc.
Thambura artists as a breed is slowly disappearing; something must be done for that also. IMHO,nothing can replace a well tuned thambura .
These are some of the things that come to my mind.

saramati · Post by **saramati** » 20 Feb 2009, 11:49

although lack of sufficient knowledge prohibited me from contributing, i enjoyed reading all of the above discussions. very informative. congrats too all of you.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 20 Feb 2009, 17:04

Were varnams a later development? Did the Trinity compose varnams?

money · Post by **money** » 20 Feb 2009, 22:01

Perhaps the greatest innovation or the revolution to happen to CM, which I think has rejuvenated CM is the disappearance of the gurukula system and its replacement by the class room teaching.
Earlier, in the gurukula system the disciples were only errand boys and unpaid servants for the guru and his family. That some of them learnt and performed music was purely due to their personal greatness and quality and not any great effort from the guru to impart knowledge. You will hear most of the past vidwans mentioning that they learnt many a thing by listening to their gurus stealthily. I think it was Mysore Vasudevachariar who in his book mentions that Patnam taught him one varnam in several months- in full time teaching.
If in the recent past there is an improvement in both quality and quantity of performers, the greatest contribution is from the teachers who are willing to share their knowledge, expertise and experience with their students in a most unselfish way.
The rasikas should be indebted to the GNBs, MLVs, DKJs, PSNs,Calcutta Krishnamurthys etc for the top musicians being churned out in quantities.

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 20 Feb 2009, 22:02

Here's one

Singing Complex RTP's could also be considered as a significant innovation. Great musicians of the present day like Smt. Suguna(s),J Venkatraman, TNS & few others create complicated pallavis & sing them beautifully to our amazement.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 20 Feb 2009, 22:12

Interactive Carnatic concert - as mentioned in this news item:
http://www.hindu.com/2009/01/22/stories ... 990200.htm

(sorry, no clue what the term meant in this context)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Feb 2009, 22:13

kadambam,
Yes, they are certainly impressive but there were pallavi singing contests of formidable giants in the olden days, weren't they?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Feb 2009, 23:53

sbala wrote:Were varnams a later development? Did the Trinity compose varnams?

Varnams do predate the trinity. I am basing this on the one data point that Viriboni's composer is the guru of SS.

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 21 Feb 2009, 01:21

arasi wrote:kadambam,
Yes, they are certainly impressive but there were pallavi singing contests of formidable giants in the olden days, weren't they?

arasiji,

Yes that's true. But i thought it should be recognized as siginificant innovation, whether it was done from Tiger, Alathur and to the present day musicians.

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 21 Feb 2009, 03:13

sbala wrote:Were varnams a later development? Did the Trinity compose varnams?

Rupamu juci- Todi varnam- Sri Ramaswamy dikshitar and dayanidhe- Begada varnam- Sri Syama sastry come to mind. However, I think the major contribution to the galaxy of varnams available today has been from Patnam Sri Suramanya Iyer.

sureshjm · Post by **sureshjm** » 21 Feb 2009, 09:47

hindustani creeping in .

blackadder · Post by **blackadder** » 23 Feb 2009, 14:15

How can we not mention the December season and, more importantly, the sabha canteens? No innovation drew so many to the sabhas than this. Granted that many do not actually make it to the seats in the halls.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 23 Feb 2009, 14:56

Absolutely Blackadder! In fact the concept of public performances replacing the King/Landlord mehfils is in itself one of the landmark developments!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Feb 2009, 17:05

Vijay and Gnanambika...

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 23 Feb 2009, 21:11

Varnam as a main in Academy concert,Mangalam in Des,Chakkaniraja as the opening piece etc.

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 23 Feb 2009, 21:13

Also forgot,Carnatic classes through Skype.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 24 Feb 2009, 08:40

Globe trotting by carnatic musicians, coaching thro'internet, carnatiuc music hubs at Cleveland, sydney, singapore(of late) . Once upon a time ,Indian music meant only Hm, artists being Ravishankar, Bisnillah khan, etc.Now cm has taken the pride of place. Unfortunately oldenday greats like MMI,GNB, SSI, ARIYAKKUDI and many others could not visit foreign countries . for various reasons like travel expenses, mode of travel, by sea only ,being deeply religious, food habits and so on GOBILALITHA

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 24 Feb 2009, 10:12

Chamber concert is how it was...it is the public performance/auditorium that is an innovation!

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 16 Apr 2009, 06:33

Has anyone considered the possibility of using piano (or keyboard by extension) as a percussion instrument in a Carnatic concert? Note I am not talking about using piano as a melodic accompaniment but as a "talavadyam".

Recently, I was fortunate to chance upon a Jazz concert on the radio where a singer was scatting (i.e. singing nonsense syllables something like alapana but without any structure that I know of) and he got into a staccato phase where he was singing short syllables within a small melodic range (3-4 notes) but with somewhat complex rhythmic patterns (at least more complex than what I am used to hearing from Western singers). The pianist followed along beautifully and reproduced the sung line on the piano and he was playing _very_ fast. That made me wonder whether we could use piano as percussion as they do in Western music.

Pianists can certainly play fast enough to play along with Carnatic music (maybe not as fast as our best mridangam players but fast enough) and the sound would be great I think. Of course this would not use the huge range of the piano and this can be done with a small keyboard. No "gumki's perhaps but there are other possibilities that my mind is boggling at.

Unfortunately, my mridangam playing is pathetic and my keyboard fingering non-existent so someone else will have to start it (unless it has been tried already).

-Then Paanan

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 18 Apr 2009, 10:54

vijay wrote:True the ARI format was path breaking but I remain unsure about whether it was a turn for the better...others:

Incorporation of western instruments although the process had begun around the trinity's time
Jugalbandis/other forms of connecting with HM
Use of technology - sharing, archiving, teaching, selling, talking about(!) music

Note - I am not saying that all of the above are 'positive"

ARI'S paddhathi was even criticised by Rangaramanujaiyengar during ARI's life time itself.

Even some modification in presentation,Tamil isai,modulation and stress on voice culture also were given importance instead of just Kanakku and swaraprashtharm

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Apr 2009, 11:50

Generalizing the thoughts of thenpaanan, it will be interesting if someone adds to the overall timbre of the sound in the carnatic music context. The accompanying violin and mridangam provides that to a limited extent.

By timbre, here I mean, the overall color of the sound produced, while still keeping with the raga traditions and not any kind of fusion stuff. Adding to the timbre and maintaining the raga music should be mutually compatible. The orchestra type accompaniments are no good, I have grown to stay away from them. The commercially produced such albums even by top CM singers all sound the same.

I think the Jazz context that thenpaanan describes is a case of adding timbre to the vocalist ( among other things ). Bassists contribute similarly, they do indeed belong to the rhythm section of a band. Of course, our mridangam being in tune with the artist, provides for that timbre in addition to providing the rhythm support.

So, if another rhythmic instrument with some melodic capabilities is there which can be in tune with the main sruthi and is capable of various swaras ( or some of them even if plain notes only ), it can play along to the beats, explore the laya and add to the timbre and color of the overall sound without being disruptive. It should be interesting.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 18 Apr 2009, 12:17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrCH4rsV5J0

I was searching for gAnamUrtE and landed at this video. The singer is accompanied by a bassist.

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 18 Apr 2009, 13:01

The singer in Suji Ram's link is Suba Sankaran, Trichy Sankaran's daughter.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 18 Apr 2009, 20:37

Suji Ram wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrCH4rsV5J0

I was searching for gAnamUrtE and landed at this video. The singer is accompanied by a bassist.

Did nothing for me - felt a bit like the 'Hooked on Classics' album my room-mate used to be hooked on to years ago!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Apr 2009, 22:12

I think that the morsing adds timbre.

But then, perhaps you may say "He would say that!"

I also hate the orchestras (apart, of course, from the groups of kids that I used to play with). Take one flute, one veena, one violin and one tabla and --- instant dead music! How could anything be worse? It could. Add a keyboard!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Apr 2009, 04:02

Nick,
Funny!