Popular ragas/kritis you don't care much for...

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 20 Feb 2009, 21:17

IMHO, Bhairavi is the top among the BIG 5 ragas of Carnatic music for me - Bhairavi, Kamboji, Sankarabaranam, Thodi, Kalyani in that order.

Mukhari the colonial cousin of Bhairavi is same for me - Karu baru, Enta Ninne, Emaninne - (BM and Ramnad), Pahimam Ratnachala nayaka, Ossosi, Vadayasi - Astapathi are my favorites.

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 20 Feb 2009, 21:36

My Top 5 would be:
Kalyani, Varali, Aarabhi, Thodi and Shanmukhapriya in that order.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Feb 2009, 21:48

Uday,
Cheers to you for starting this thread. Not only is it 'jing chaka??ing along, it has stayed with the topic without straying even after fifty posts!
'Don't care much for' has various degrees of reactions--from don't care to dislike to hate to can't stand it!

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 20 Feb 2009, 22:03

arasi,

once in a while even a nut hits a squirrel. BTW, "can't stand it" holds only for non-negotiable entities - non-veg food, tawdry commercial cinema, deforestation, etc... Even a sincere karnaranjani is preferable to tawdry commercial cinema for example !

annamalai

Your order of raga preference is EXACTLY the same as mine. Are we the same person ?! Judging from your handle, if you're a Bhagavan RM bhakta it gets spookier

.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 20 Feb 2009, 22:06

Uday_Shankar wrote:Are we the same person ?!

Hmm, and I thought multiple ids are not allowed here!

On a more philosophical note, we are all the same...
Bhagwan RM would concur on that.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 20 Feb 2009, 22:07

Seeing so many posts -ranging from don't care to don't like to hate- I think it is better to change the title of the topic to 'Unpopular ragas/kritis you dont care much for'.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 20 Feb 2009, 22:15

ragam-talam wrote:Bhagwan RM would concur on that.

Indeed! Nice to meet so many kindred souls who are not "different" from me

!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 20 Feb 2009, 22:44

Great going guys - good to see so many honest opinions! My order among the top ragas (Big 6 and not Big 5 please) - Kharaharapriya, Kalyani, Kambhoji, Thodi, Shankarabharanam, Bhairavi, ....save for another 4-5 ragas these are also my favourites. I think all of them would be in the top 10. BTW I made 3 changes while ranking!

Gowla - please listen to Sanjay's Thyagaraja Palayasumam before you commit yourself. Ah, and Dudukagala is my fav Pancharatna after the Varali...of the five it is the one in Nattai that I find the least appealing although I still like it.

Mohanakalyani - another raga I don't care much for (funny, considering how much I like Kalyani and Mohanam!). Nalinakanthi is OK as a filler, though.

Ashwin · Post by **Ashwin** » 20 Feb 2009, 23:02

Wow, Uday, you've really opened the flood gates on this one. Aren't we supposed to be saying that all rAgA-s/compositions are equal?

Anyway, bhO Shambho - uggh, shoot me now.

Ashwin

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Feb 2009, 23:14

I guess we have been holding our breath and waiting to exhale all these years for Uday to open the flood gates. Good therapy thread!!

Imagine the plight of an artist who wants to play to this gallery!!

While I am still fuming at the defaming of my sacred cows in this thread and wishing for the proper punishment meted out either in this life or the next

,

this thread will hopefully desensitize people who take offence at the personal opinions expressed in the concert review threads.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 20 Feb 2009, 23:22

Ashwin fully with you on Bho Shambo!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Feb 2009, 23:26

here is another sacred cow being put down: Those stre.....tchy padams with lyrics not exactly uplifting, and where you have to scratch your head and go "so this ALSO is supposed to be sahana? kedaragowla? And where does one line stop and the next line begin in all this stretchiness?"

! (But I must say, that they really dont have the same effect on me as a hamsanandi/sindhubhairavi)

Regarding gowLa: one of my favorite is SrImahAgaNapatiravatumAm. I also love the tune of a subhramanya kautuvam in dance - which has the most catchy, (rhythmically) funky sollus - very attractive when those sollus are sung in gowLa.

Arun

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 20 Feb 2009, 23:26

vasanthakokilam wrote: Imagine the plight of an artist who wants to play to this gallery!!

Ha ha ! Carnatic music as we know it will have ended !

Ashwin, nice to meet you online. Hope you are continuing to "electrify" the audience. I will make sure your opinions on bHo Shambho and undeniably unequal ragas are conveyed to the venerable professor

.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 20 Feb 2009, 23:42

hmmm

Looks like I am a very late entry...

About Vasantis and Sumaneesha Ranjanis, Shivaranjanis, revatis of this world, I am OK as long as the song is a quick ( read less than 5 minuits) dEvaranama or something like that!

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 21 Feb 2009, 00:26

keerthi wrote:
{ordinary AlApana, bad krthi rendition,horrible neraval and atrocious swarakalpana; it is so un-aesthetic, it makes you wish you were on an-aesthetic};

Friends,

I have say keerthi has hit the nail on the head. The versions I have heard have been really atrocious. Not that I have heard many. I have a few in my list: Smt MSS (very poor audio-makes me cring!) and other artistes. I don't know what the other artistes are trying to achieve. They are rendering it like an complicated exercise/drill. Thats the whole reason why I'm disappointed at ths kRti/rendering. kambhOji, along with simhEndramadyamam, was the raga which brought me to my knees in front of karnATaka music. This was Smt MSS at the Carnegie Hall in New York. But at the same time as coolji pointed out, I have been given an over dose of SrI TVS's kambhOji since childhood. Thats probably why the aversion. I don't mean to say bad things about SrI vIna kuppayyar or the kRti.

Uday: I haven't heard the AlatUr sahOdarar recording. I might change my opinion after I hear it. But I dont know why you want to bar me out of the forum? I dont think I have caused any "trouble" since 03/20/2005. Is this such a big crime?

vasanthakokilam: talli ninnu nera is definitely a beautiful song. But there are so many kalyANi recordings in my collections very few renderings stand up. One RTP by Smt MLV, bhajarE rE chitta by Smt MSS, kamalAmbhAm by SrI GNB and abhayAmbhAm by Sri DKJ. Otherwise IMHO, I'm getting bored of kalyANi in general.

Does any one know of a rAgam tAnam pallavi in SrI? I'm never satiated by SrI. LMAO, I'm such a hypocrite

to kalyANi.

Arasi: Thanks for you kind words. But I'm not a scholar at all. CML, DRS and others are the ones who are rightful onwers of that title in this forum.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Feb 2009, 00:34

ksrimech: Making the obvious explicit, any comments about your personal opinions on ragas and krithis were all in jest!! This is an exhaling thread, sort of like a confessional, any personal opinions expressed here can not be held against you

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 21 Feb 2009, 00:44

vasanthakokilam wrote:ksrimech: Making the obvious explicit, any comments about your personal opinions on ragas and krithis were all in jest!! This is an exhaling thread, sort of like a confessional, any personal opinions expressed here can not be held against you

Thank you. Even though I'm the "oldest" member in this forum, I'm not still well versed in the art of leg pulling. Thats why I don't know how to react.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 21 Feb 2009, 02:57

I agree with a bit of everyone - good to know we share some likes and, even better, some dislikes! One thing that happens with me is that when I see a particular composition I dislike presented in a very visually appealing fashion, in a dance performance I tend to change my mind. A case in point was the kALinga naratana slOkam of Sri OVK (yamunA taTAka....is it really a tillAnA?) that I had disliked very much (first heard in a vocal concert where it sounded like either the singer or I were suffering from a bout of petit mal) - when presented as a vigorous, beautiful depiction of the subduing of kALiya, it actually was very appealing.

I agree with Arun (100%, now isn't that scary!) regarding his experience with krishNA nI bEganE bArO (usually on my hit list)...but how many of you will not change your mind after seeing this clip with a caraNam that is not heard usually? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdMHEJSvWHY

Padams - couldn't agree more (with exceptions - I like the ones I have seen as visual poetry).

While I am OK with abhangs, I would rather choose a viruttam, or certainly a tillAnA if given a choice.

And, along the lines of Ramki (vaiNika) I am put off by professionals mis-pronouncing words - a big one is 'paNDurIdi' - can't stand it, or 'anubamaguNAmbudi'.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 21 Feb 2009, 03:06

rshankar, thank you so much for the video clip! I agree, that is such a lovely rendition. The 'jalakreeda' line is sung - and danced - so beautifully.

The clip says "Malgudi days - The Performing Child". Is this from a Kannada movie based on RK Narayan's book?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Feb 2009, 04:34

Thanks Ravi. That is a wonderful clip.

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 21 Feb 2009, 05:04

Balamma & kRSNA ni bEganE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axuq7ncvjYE

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 21 Feb 2009, 05:18

Ragas : MohanaKalyani, Jayamanohari ,Bindumalini & NaThabhairavi. In addition the Valaji, Malayamarutham.
Compositions: Entamuddo (I do not see the melodic or musical point of this raga and the composition). Krishnam bhaja manasa -(Even if Dikshitar comes and swears that he wrote it I would be inclined to disbelieve him and don't ask me why) . The reason for the above non-preference is that my personal (and hence biased) conception of what constitutes ragatva is in conflict with the above ragas and they seem to be a dance up and down on a scale and nothing more.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 21 Feb 2009, 05:49

Here is a rendition of bindumalini raagam by Charulatha Mani : http://video.aol.com/video-detail/charu ... 3875467640 - I wonder what is missing in this melody

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 21 Feb 2009, 06:12

Ravi, thanks for the link to that charming clip! I agree with Prashant that KVN can breathe life into Krishna Nee, especially when he sings the pallavi as a mini-neraval (I think this rendition is on Sangeethapriya). Purist, I have indeed listened to MMI's famed Meenakshi Memudam, but my opinion didn't change at all! I have never been moved by this raga.

Dudukugala Nanne is one of my favourite pancharathna krithis too! Pity it's hardly performed. Jagadanandakaraka is my least favourite too. In decreasing order of preference, mine would be: Varali, Gowlai, Sri, Arabhi, Nattai. For the Big 6, it would be: Bhairavi, Kharaharapriya, Kamboji, Shankarabharanam, Kalyani... Thodi.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Feb 2009, 06:36

VK Ramanji, though you can attempt to change someone else's impression on items that are dear to you, given the number of such sacred cows that are taken down here, you will be quite busy

( just joking ).

It will be a personal test for everyone who gets shaken by all this to make sure they still enjoy their favorite ragas and krithis the same way. ( why not? but it is easier said than done ).

sureshvv opined early on in this thread that many of these dislikes are due to overuse and the consequent loss of freshness and originality. I think there is a lot of truth to it. For me, Kalyani sounded very fresh after not listening to it at all for a couple of years.

Also, the tastes of our friends here are skewed in the direction of depth, heaviness, original, classical. 'set apart from the masses' etc. Some from outside would even fault that as 'elite' and 'snobbish'. So be it. But I am curious about those who mainly like the immediately attractive hooksy songs view the heavy ones.

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 21 Feb 2009, 07:34

Have people run out of ideas for a constructive and meaningful discussion.

It is a disgrace to see people talking low of some of the kritis that have been considered to be masterpieces and the vaggeyekaras who have created them.
Most of the kritis mentioned as boring/sleepy or whatever are some of the great creations (koniyadine, emaninne, thiruvadi charanam .....)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Feb 2009, 08:43

musicfan,
In all this explosive exercise, don't forget that these are serious lovers of CM (their fervor sometimes frightens me!).
Of course, they are not bashing the compositions or the rAgAs even. It is all about what they experience in a performance.
And, don't be fooled by their likes and dislikes either. They can be fickle. I am an example too. I have come a long way from disiking bhairavi and yes, viribONi is one of my favorite varNams too!

Vijay,
gowLai is the next on the agenda for me.

VK,
Your enthusiasm is obvious. I bet you feel refreshed and are going to go back to some of the 'blahs' in the course of time and are going to feel energized by listening to them.

Songs in performances is what this is about.This fun ride was NOT about the krutis, their composers or the rAgAs. Funnily enough, and I know you lot, tALams have not been beaten to smithereens by the gnAtAs. Weekend spirit prevails too and so they are puffing along merrily.
Such a fun ride, scholars, performers and serious rasikAs are taking part in it and having fun, refreshing themselves before diving into more music...

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 21 Feb 2009, 09:04

keerthi wrote:madhyamAvatI-s with nn-rr-mm-nn-RR phrases.BOOOOOOOOOoooooooooOOOOO!

There are some people who probably never played this thing for madhyamavati.

I feel it suits andolika more. But some people overdo it there too!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Feb 2009, 10:01

arasi
It is nice to see the Chennai crowd having fun bashing ragas and kritis and you becoming the guiding spirit. I am too scared to join in being afraid that musicfan(atic)s will target me. Of course I can trust Uday to always come to my rescue since the acid in his tongue has not gone dry yet

OK! My bugbear is the 'pancaratna' since they are always group rendered as I weep (as I sure believe Thyagaraja (PBUH) in heaven too) hearing the shrieks and shouts

Yet to hear one decent group rendering starting from the mikeless days of yore to the electronic gizmos of today!

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 21 Feb 2009, 10:03

I completely can't believe some of you who said that "Meenakshi Me Mudam" hasn't moved you!
Come on, Purvikalyani is so superb!! And Meenakshi is one of the masterpieces in that raga. I love MSS's rendition the best. Even "Anandanadamaduvar" is nice. Come on Purvikalyani lovers, defend me!!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Feb 2009, 10:49

srinivasrgvn, I will defend you definitely since I am in your camp with respect to Meenakshi Me Mudam. But I think the krithi does not require our defense in this thread.

It is interesting to read the distress people feel that someone else does not like a masterpiece or their favorite. May be we should add a PG13 warning for this thread

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 21 Feb 2009, 11:43

I edited my first post and took out the name of one of my favorite artistes. The reverence I have for him does not give me the license to ciriticize him in public.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 21 Feb 2009, 12:39

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 21 Feb 2009, 12:45

Amongst all this talk about ragams, poor Talam got left out! (remember, I am ragam-talam!)

Misra chapu rules!!!

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 21 Feb 2009, 12:49

Here is one more that causes me to turn off automatically: gnAnamosagarAdA rendered in pUrvikalyANi. I cannot sit through it after hearing the shaDvidamArgini version.

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 21 Feb 2009, 12:53

keerthi wrote: I will go to Hanuman temple and get Ayush-homam done for Gaula, Sree and KoniyAdina..

Too good, keerthi!

I just love gauLa especially. Such a treasure of lovely compositions - a grand aTa tALa varNam of vINa kuppayyar, Celimi kOri - the adi tALa varNam. tyAgarAja pAlayAshu mAm - especially rendered as it should be, in a stately 2-kalai gait, mahishAsura mardani, bhajarE mAnasa shri raghuvIram of WVB, and any tAnam; this rAgA is just made for singing tAnam.

Sorry, I know this thread is supposed to be about ragas we don't care much for... I will stop now!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 21 Feb 2009, 13:16

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 21 Feb 2009, 15:08

PG13 caveat notwithstanding, the crazy, relationship I have with some pieces and/or ragas evoked that slightly hysterical, very visceral response.. This is turning out to be very unusual thread, and I only feel more and more miserable when I see darlings being sentenced to ignominy.

srinivasrgvn,
I do feel gaula is very human and deserves 'humane' treatment from both artists and listeners. You neraval post has me foaming at the mouth; but I will post a less rabid version. Neraval represents the acme of artistry in carnAtic music, along with tAnam and the padam.[Am tempted to say 'and koniyAdina', but will abstain]
While AlApana and kalpanaswara can be accomplished effectively on the basis of technical skill and vituosity; good,effective rendition of tAnam, neraval and padams demands an emotional dimension,which very few can incorporate into their music.

ragam-talam,
a) it is good to find a champion for KoniyAdina and sree.
b) re the detective story with rAga characters, you may want to read Vidya's short story? with the older ragas sitting around and reflecting on their past glories, while younger rAgas preen themselves in the background.

Arasi,
Have seen an ad for a BAlachander RTP Sree CD.

Vidya,
Vasanthakumari has given excellent renditions of NAtabhairavi,for SrivallIdEvasEnApathE and also several pallavis; in which she has actually elucidated the unique rAga-swarUpam. There is a remarkable piece by that Wizard - PUchi S. AyyangAr - parulasEva, which underscores the elusive rAgaswarupam of this nice rAgam.

Prashant,
your note on Gaula was a real pick-me-up. I haven't seen or heard the Ata tAla varnam. Isn't chelimi also by kuppayyar? Nor have I heard the walajapet song. KAmajanaka by sWathi TirunAl is a good piece.

To whomsoever it may concern; Emani ne nI mahima is a top class composition, like all of Subbaraya shAstri's faultless, crystal-faceted gems.

Will I find myself plea-bargaining in this lunatic fashion for ever. Ayyayo vegatA!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 21 Feb 2009, 15:30

If there's an annual award for the most interesting thread, it should go to this one! (How about we institute one?? Mods, are you listening...)

This thread has a nice mix of arattai and seriousness.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Feb 2009, 15:57

That is a wonderful idea! Let us make a 'thread of the month' award. The honour goes to collectively to all the participants. Just spell out the ground rules and the process. There should not be contentions and competitions (We shudder st Cleveland

Banter of course is not ruled out

Criticizing artistes is definitely a no no ! But raga bashing, tala bashing, ragam-talam bashing

is OK!
Ready ?

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 21 Feb 2009, 16:00

Despite the fact that I do like hindolam, I get tired if I listen to it too frequently. This happened recently during the Dover Lane Music Festival in January when 3 artistes presented Malkauns, 2 presented Jog and 3 others sang Sohini - all within a span of 4 days! After a point it didn't matter whether it was a vocal recital or instrumental.

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 21 Feb 2009, 16:01

Not just bashing, but some sha-bashing and bhesh!-ing, and some basher-bashing. criticising artists would be bashing dirty linen in public...

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 21 Feb 2009, 16:08

cmlover wrote: ragam-talam bashing is OK!

cmlover wrote: Tyagaraja (PBUH) !!

Hahaha !!!

cmloverji,
You may pretend to have neutralized the H2SO4 on your tongue and I'll take it at face value. But the N2O certainly hasn't disappeared from your breath

.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Feb 2009, 16:14

Uday!
My hats off to you

(though it may not fit your size

...since it is shrunk

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Feb 2009, 16:18

Threads of this kind are highly cathartic and therapeutic where one lets go his/her pet aversion. In that process he/she reveals the inner personality. It may look 'ugly' or even shocking to one who adores that aspect which may even be his/her sacred cow. The 'intellect' demands to know a rational explanation; but there is none ! Have you ever contemplated murdering your grand ma ?
Freud must be turning in his graves!

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 21 Feb 2009, 17:10

There are some krithis that have been d ealt with so many times that I don't want to listen to any more. Sri Subramanyaya Namathe, Meenakshi Memudam, Sri Krishnam, Dasarathe, Vathapiganapathim etc. I don't have a problem with any raga per-se, but more with the krithi's that are rendered.

Weird to find so many people not liking Mohanam, one of my favourites:) Though not Nannu Palimpa please.

Even when listening to concerts at home, I have started moving on once the main piece or RTP is over, I have no liking of *any* thukadaas. Unless there is a virutham or slokam.

Pancharatha krithis - my favourite is Jagadanandakaraka in Nattai.

narayan · Post by **narayan** » 21 Feb 2009, 17:56

My non-favourites: Nannu vidachi in Ritigoulai, by DKJ, with micro variations in the nannu and then the whole nine yards of the kodandarama, pattabhirama...
Bhajare re manasa in Abheri, where I sort of tune out when it comes on
It is top 5, not top 6, because one of the prereqs is that there should be a Dikshitar song in the ragam, so sorry Kharaharapriya!
I like dudukagala and actually all the pancharatnams, but would now like to hear it in concert in a sharp rendering, rather than a group of people chugging along, dominated by one or two loud voices in the group renderings these days.
Narayan

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 21 Feb 2009, 18:04

Answer this question:
May I criticize Chembai?

If your answer is NO, STOP RIGHT THERE and don't read further! You have been warned!
If your answer is YES, read on!

I love Chembai Vaidyanatha Bhagavatar as much as the next person here, but I found his rendition of the "Sarasijanabha" Kamboji Atta Tala varnam quite unmelodious.

On the other hand, I was completely blown away by "Rakshamam Sharanagatam", which Chembai has sung like only he can!

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 21 Feb 2009, 18:21

What I dont care that much?

In mAnd vAnathin meedu is a big bore . This krithi is not at all classical

In bilahari , patnam's paridanamachittE

In YamunAkalyAni - krishna nee beghane, jambupathE

In nAttaikurinji(love this rAga)- mayammA of shayama sastri.

in chencukAmbOdhi - vararAgalaya

in hemavati - shri kAnthimathim

In bilahari - kanukOntini

In begada - nadopasanA

In shankarAbharanam - devijagajanani and aluru kuriyaga

In lAtangi - venkataramanA and pirava varam

Over a period of few years my dislike list has come down significantly, meaning I have been just liking more rAgas and krithis that I did not like that much. For eg nijadasa varada in kalyAni in the last one year I am liking it, though I did not like it that much for years before

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Feb 2009, 23:07

keerthi wrote:Will I find myself plea-bargaining in this lunatic fashion for ever. Ayyayo vegatA!

See if this helps. For every comment like 'I hate this raga', ' I can not stand this krithi', there are 1000 other silent rasikas who love it ( and probably get offended/hurt too ). By default, we should assume so and use that as a balm

This is a unique thread indeed and should be treated for it is. These are strictly individual opinions and have not much to do with anything inherent in the raga or krithi. I would not even characterise/sugarcoat it as 'These impressions are formed due to bad renditions or performances'. Why? Some people just do not like certain ragas or krithis, popular or otherwise.

But your plea-bargaining is fun to read and please continue