comfortable with Sa Pa Sa for a sans Pa scale?

[ganesh_mourthy]

usually when I play a raaga like lalitha or hindolam or those without Pa I turn of the pa in the pitch box. I am comfortable and find it really soothing that way. but the other day my friend was practicing with Pa in the pitch box coupled with high volume of the pitch box and it was tough for me to stand it. though I am used to it in concerts it is a compromise of my taste. I may not relish fully.

What do musicians practisng music here do? play with Pa on ?

[uday_shankar]

You're right, everyone turns off panchama shruti when singing panchama varjya ragas, be it an electronic or real tampura or the vina/chitravina tAla strings. Your friend needs to be sent to sensitivity training .

[vijay]

I know some pros who don't bother to change it....Akellaji had railed against it sometime back!

[ragam-talam]

Would you set it to Sa-Ma-Sa instead?

[ganesh_mourthy]

yes i do.

[srikant1987]

Sa Pa Sa is perfectly fine for me in any case. I love the eerie feeling when the sadharna gandharam or a stretched shuddha madhyamam is sounded with this.

Not having Pa sound may also be OK, but having ma sound instead is very shady. We might confuse with madhyama shruti, and all that. And what about niroshti? What if your raga has pratimadhyama? We'll have to keep inventing new drones if we use sa-ma-sa for hindolam and all.

[ganesh_mourthy]

though it is not a wide practice to have sa ma sa and can be easily confused for madhyamshruthi, i have no problem. I think it is a personal development.For me SA and Sa is enough in case of no Pa raagas.

[vijay]

Sa ma seems to me more reasonable for Hindolam...I have found the Panchamam quite obtrusive when I've heard it in concerts. In HM, they usually use 2-3 notes on theTanpura depending on the raga.

For Hamsanandhi what would be the solution I wonder - maybe a plain sa.

[ganesh_mourthy]

yes Sa and SA

[msakella]

Dear brother-members, Once a bus-conducter called his daughter and asked her to move him forcibly while writing a post-card. In the same manner another person having lived most of his life beside ‘Koovam-river’ in Chennai and having become mostly acquainted with the emanating foul-smell could not stay in some other area without it. Any musician who cannot sing any Panchama-varja-raga without Panchama in Tambura also belongs to the same category. amsharma

[uday_shankar]

Very funny, akellaji. And a bit caustic .

Actually, panchama is not necessary even in sampUrna rAgas. Tyagaraja probably used the "mendicant's" tampura which had just a single sArani thanthi.

Nagasvaram players use shruti boxes these days but traditionally their shruti was only the otthu-oodal which is a plain Sa held by the co-player.

I think having the panchama can be a hindrance in some cases because it railroads some swarasthanas into certain fixed values. This may be good for the 12-tone Hindustani system but not so for the more delicately nuanced Carnatic gamakas.

To illustrate just one one case where the panchama shruti intereferes: Kalyani NI.

Now Kalyani has a plain NI which can be played in some sangatis (but often overdone in alApanas) but the real grace of kalyani comes when the NI is played as an anuswara of shadja. When this is done, if the panchama string of the tampura is generating the plain NI (15/8), that could interfere with the dynamics of this gamaka. The situation is different with Raag Yaman in Hindustani which has only that plain NI and so hearing it emanating from the panchama tanti of the tampura adds to the effect.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, Uday_Shankar, Even a powerful horn of a car does not clear the most indisplined traffic then what is the use of having a soft-sounded horn. Unless the sugercane is crushed it never gives out the juice. In the same way the most indisciplined habits cannot be removed even by quoting such caustic examples and the very highly indisplined habits of Shruti and Laya in the guise of so called ‘tradition’ are also of the same. The usage of ‘Kampitas or Gamakas’ in any music is just like adding ‘salt’ in a highly displined way to the eatables and everybody is aware of its indisplined way of usage. In fact, in making any music soothing to the listeners’ ear there is much need of a rational discussion in respect of these drone-instruments though futile. amsharma

[vainika]

Your friend needs to be sent to sensitivity training .

lol, what's next: designated panchama-free zones?

[vasanthakokilam]

Now Kalyani has a plain NI which can be played in some sangatis (but often overdone in alApanas) but the real grace of kalyani comes when the NI is played as an anuswara of shadja. When this is done, if the panchama string of the tampura is generating the plain NI (15/8), that could interfere with the dynamics of this gamaka. The situation is different with Raag Yaman in Hindustani which has only that plain NI and so hearing it emanating from the panchama tanti of the tampura adds to the effect.

Uday, as a point of reference for the Ni that is an anuswara of shadja, would the 'Ni' in 'nIyE' of Unnaiallal be one? ( as in here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeAmAW-I ... re=related )

BTW, what is the meaning of anuswara in the contexts you use it? Prior to seeing your usage ( here and in another thread where you referred Thodi R as an anuswara of S ), I understood that as something that is not part of the raga syntax but brought in for gamaka purposes and, on instruments, for bringing out the sahitya enunciation and bhava.

[uday_shankar]

vk,
That's a good example. For what it's worth here's a clip I just recorded, trying to demo exactly what I'm talking about. The first part of the clip employs the "anuswara" concept and the second part (not equal halves in time) the plain NI.

http://uploading.com/files/LM0PTNPM/kalya-NI.wav.html

[rbharath]

I guess, it is a question of personal convenience and practice.

I have tried singing in madhyama sruthi with the normal panchama sruthi still on the tampura. i dont seem to be very troubled with the presence of panchama string...

[Kailash]

Yes Bharath, I second, its personal convenience and is the individual's feeling and the sense of comfort.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Sometimes or many a times it is very comfortable for us ,not for the listeners. One of my friends when practising says 'wow i am so satisfied today singing for long hours in shudshrudhi'. I have to have a high threshold of tolerance to be one with him. I become yes man so that I let him to have his " AHAM" intact.

[vasanthakokilam]

vk,
That's a good example. For what it's worth here's a clip I just recorded, trying to demo exactly what I'm talking about. The first part of the clip employs the "anuswara" concept and the second part (not equal halves in time) the plain NI.

http://uploading.com/files/LM0PTNPM/kalya-NI.wav.html

Wonderful demo, Uday. I understand now. Thanks very much.

[srikant1987]

I think that more strictly, the flat-note nyAsa svaras of the rAgam should be the deciding factor.

Those notes shall have some tuning on the tanpura which causes them to resonate ... BUT THIS TUNING MAY INCLUDE NOTES NOT PRESENT IN THE RAGA.

One of my friends said Pt Bhimsen Joshi once tuned his tanpura to shuddha madhyama and KAKALI nishada before singing malkaus.

[rbharath]

Sometimes or many a times it is very comfortable for us ,not for the listeners.

thats true however. I have seen my friends totally being lost, when i set off on a madhyama sruthi ragam without changing the tampura...