How do you view slips in performances?

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 17 Mar 2009, 07:38

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... ncert.html
(This is a general topic on why there is a lack of crowds in nadaswaram, veenai, flute and now even violin concerts.)
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http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... adder.html
(In this srinivasrgvn says people don't understand how tough the veena is to play.)
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In one veenai concert I attended by one of the seniormost vainikas today, the extremely rare slip was met with a ruthless cry of what seemed like disgust from some members of the audience.

I have attended a vocal concert by another very senior and knowledgeable vidwan, whose old throat couldn't dance to his vidwat's beautiful fancies ... it made a raga like ravicandrika I'd heard many times earlier take more than a minute to identify. This concert was attended by a packed hall, listening raptly.
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OK, the second hall consists mostly of very refined rasikas afaik, but nonetheless, I think some part of the whole thing is definitely due to a vocal-instrumental divide. I think people do cut more slack to vocalists when it comes to shruti slips.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 17 Mar 2009, 12:46

I agree Srikant.

Even small sruthi lapses can be quite jarring in intruments while it may go unnoticed while singing.

Again a bad throat due to infection or old age is taken as something over which you have no control and hence accepted.

We are conditioned to listen to vocal music and look for a similar experience in instrumental music also. May be we need to be trained in listening to instruments which are not a substitute for voice but a class by themselves.

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 17 Mar 2009, 14:08

Srikanth sir

Shall we stop this thread please through which we may try to expose good and reputed artistes being attacked or rebuked ? or even those of the past artistes ? Instead can we have a thread called Interesting Music Clips wherein we have excellent phrases being rendered by artistes just within a flash moment of time which accounts for mastery and artistry and delivery ?

In a public forum like this where sentiments and emotions rule very high it will be difficult to maintain this thread in an objective way and hence my above suggestion. While i completely accept your idea i am not for finding faults with musicians past or present.

Thanks for your understanding.

J.Balaji

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 17 Mar 2009, 15:00

There were similar opinions recently on a thread on light music concerts vs. classical. srikant1987's point is certainly germane. Any performance should be judged on its merits and not on the artiste's age/lineage, health or perceived vidhwat. Evaluation of a specific performance and the overall stature of a musician are two different things. Confusing the two just amounts to lowering the standards of our classical music.
There are plenty of stalwarts in Carnatic music, past and present, who can hold their own against musicians of other genres, when it comes to clean vocalisation. Carnatic Music is better off without the crutches, excuses, and fig leaves.
mridhangam's apprehension is understandable, but the notion of "good" is subjective. "Reputed" artistes should certainly be subject to the same level of criticism as anyone else IMHO. When the likes of Pavarotti have been booed on stage for below-par performances (rare, mind you!), musicians in India, if anything, are treated with kid gloves. If you pay $150-$200 for attending a performance, I daresay the situation would be different. There are full-time professional musicians of more than one genre in my family, so this is just my frank take; no axe to grind...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Mar 2009, 16:32

An old, black jazz musician on making mistakes in music: "There are two kinds; the regular kind, and the kind that don't sound so good".

Mistakes are part of the musical landscape: occasionally they may really jar, and I guess that whether they do or not depends on the knowledge and expertise of the listener, but mostly, the regular kind are just a part of that day's performance.

A couple of times I've seen an elder vocalist forget the song --- they get reminded and carry on.

More often, I've seen the percussionists not quite bring an answering calculation to its conclusion, or even miss a turn. For me it is a reminder that this is fresh, live, unrehearsed music happening, and a reminder of just how challenging what they are doing is. The small mistakes highlight the greater success.

The only thing that sticks with me, because it puzzles me, comes from my tourist days, and was a hotel performance. That it was a posh hotel perhaps doesn't mean to say that the musicians were of concert quality, I don't know. There would have been even fewer songs that I would have recognised, let alone put a name to, but (forgive spelling) Raga Vamsa Sudha is a very well known piece. So how is it, that the solo violinist was able to play one note consistently wrong? Did he mistake the raga? In which case, how did he ever learn it? As I say, I'm just puzzled by that.

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 17 Mar 2009, 17:06

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 17 Mar 2009, 17:14

Stop this thread!

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 17 Mar 2009, 17:19

srinivasrgvn

I think you have missed the direction of srikant's post. He was lamenting the fact that while small mistakes made by instrumentalists are frowned upon, vocalists are given more slack. He just used your observation to make a point.

Srikant, if you could reword the title to refelect your thoughts, many misperceptions can be avoided

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 17 Mar 2009, 17:29

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 17 Mar 2009, 17:48

mridhangam wrote:While i completely accept your idea i am not for finding faults with musicians past or present.

There's this saying which goes like, "A friend is a person who knows you, but loves you nonetheless."

My fanhood of my favourite musicians is something like that, but I recognise that it may not be the case with others here.

So yes, we can stop this thread. But I'll say a few more words before that: if my favourite artist puts up a shade less wonderful performance on some day, I blame the day for it, rather than find reasons to explain why it wasn't any less wonderful. We should have a stronger justification to change our standards on what is a wonderful concert.
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If my favourite vainika accidently plucks out a string when it's stopped at the pratimadhyama while playing hindolam, I don't look for treatises that say pratimadhyama is included in hindolam. I accept that slip for what it is.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 17 Mar 2009, 17:49

karthikbala wrote:Any performance should be judged on its merits and not on the artiste's age/lineage, health or perceived vidhwat. Evaluation of a specific performance and the overall stature of a musician are two different things. Confusing the two just amounts to lowering the standards of our classical music.

Yes, this is what I'm saying. Beautifully put!

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 17 Mar 2009, 19:06

srinivasrgvn wrote:
karthikbala,
I agree with you that a performance should be judged on its merits and not on the artiste's age. I am not telling you to praise an artiste because he/she is old even if he/she makes mistakes. I am sorry to say this but a sentence like "Carnatic Music is better off without the crutches, excuses, and fig leaves" is definitely not nice.

Actually, I had not responded to your post which was linked, but to the OP. I was expressing a general opinion on the wide latitude given to performers and the wide variance in quality of performances. I regret any unintended "harshness", eventhough I am not sure why the post should be perceived as such.

regards.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Mar 2009, 21:23

Cool,
Wonder what you think of this thread. I am thinking of RD's 'Sorry, Your Slip is Showing' Section!

'Hilarity' is one thing, but 'Slips'--are they necessary? In individual reviews, with particular instances, they have a place. But to discuss them in a thread solely devoted to slips alone...?

I suppose it is a good idea to look forward to positive elements in what is to come in CM than harp on old and established artistes on their shortcomings. An example for a positive approach is what I found in the sweet bowing by young Athira without any screeches at all, on the Podigai show. As Balaji pointed out, before the thread finds a way to individually attacking musicians, it is a good idea to close it. While analytical approach to CM is great (adds to our knowledge), to discuss artistes so critically by analysing them--comes in the way of our savoring their performances, in my thinking.

Yes, Uday. I agree with you...

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 17 Mar 2009, 21:31

I thought Srikant's point was to compare the allowance we give for vocal slips vs instrumental and not to start pinpointing artistes and roasting them... If I got the gist of the OP correct, I would venture to argue that it's easier in fact to maintain shruti on an instrument which has defined swarasthanas than in vocal where one might easily strike an off note. I also agree with rajumds that instrumental lapses are more apparent while in vocal, perhaps the combined sound of the violin, percussion, and tambura might override the vocalist's lapse (if slight). But I'm not so sure about all this.

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 17 Mar 2009, 21:31

we can as well merge hilarity and slip. let me narrate one such incident. a senior vidwan of yester years who was singing closing his eyes was grinding the air with his hand and by mistake pulled the bow of the violinist who was sitting very close to him. this was for quite some time before the vidwan opened his eyes and realised his mistake and remarked it seems 'oh! ithe pudugittena?' and the mruthangist was jocularly remarking it seems (pointing out the singer) 'intha pudungallukku antha pudungal paravaillai'!

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 17 Mar 2009, 21:32

@ EVERYONE

I do NOT want to criticise everyone who ever dared to get on stage and make some sound. I am not one to derive sadistic pleasure from doing so. It's such a useless thing to do!

On the other hand, I say that we should
(a) accept these slips, AND
(b) overlook them.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 17 Mar 2009, 23:52

@chalanata:

LOL and it was timely!

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 18 Mar 2009, 00:28

nick H wrote:The only thing that sticks with me, because it puzzles me, comes from my tourist days, and was a hotel performance. That it was a posh hotel perhaps doesn't mean to say that the musicians were of concert quality, I don't know. There would have been even fewer songs that I would have recognised, let alone put a name to, but (forgive spelling) Raga Vamsa Sudha is a very well known piece. So how is it, that the solo violinist was able to play one note consistently wrong? Did he mistake the raga? In which case, how did he ever learn it? As I say, I'm just puzzled by that.

This was a period in the 1980s when people were experimenting a lot with this kRti. I have listened to violinists, vainikas and nAgasvaram players introduce shades of R1 while playing R2, G2 while playing G3, D1 during D2 and N2 in N3, especially in the 1/2 speed of the SrmG rsR rmD dnG gpS portion of the svara passages and in the anupallavI II line.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Mar 2009, 01:28

Thank you so much! You know, it has stuck in my mind, and I have even wondered if they might not be having a private joke with the foreign tourists not knowing a deliberate mistake!

I could not even tell you now which part of the song it occurred in, but I think your explanation is very probably true. I can say that it didn't sound good! Or not to me, anyway.

I think that a lot of musicians who do this sort of work (one has to eat) playing for audiences that seldom include more than the occasional real listener, make the best of the situation by playing for themselves and each other, so perhaps experimentation might well have been on the menu.

Ashwin · Post by **Ashwin** » 18 Mar 2009, 03:02

karthikbala wrote:Any performance should be judged on its merits and not on the artiste's age/lineage

And if there is merit to be derived in an artiste's age/lineage? By way of elements other than voice, Sruti, and kaNakku? What is 'merit'?

Ashwin

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 18 Mar 2009, 10:41

Ashwin wrote: And if there is merit to be derived in an artiste's age/lineage? By way of elements other than voice, Sruti, and kaNakku? What is 'merit'?

Ashwin

I'm not sure I understand you... so if sruti, voice, and laya go for a toss, it is still possible to savour a satisfying performance, compensated by "merit to be derived in an artiste's age/lineage" ??!!!!???

The point I was trying to make is that evaluating a rendition is different from evaluating a musician. The merit of lineage/age (if any) is to be discovered in the process of listening and not from the biodata.
A wine should be judged by taste, not the label; hence the concept of blind tasting! A duck by Sri Tendulkar is as bad as a duck by a tail-ender, but is not by itself a significant commentary on his worth.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 18 Mar 2009, 11:50

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 18 Mar 2009, 11:56

Karthik, I agree with you - a bio-data or popularity is not an excuse for a shoddy performance and perhaps we are too gentle with our musicians. But I think Ashwin's point is that CM (or HM) can go beyond limitations of the voice. Indeed the quality of musical ideas is perhaps the loftiest goal of Indian classical music - Nedunuri, SRJ and many others are shining examples.

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 18 Mar 2009, 12:00

coolkarni wrote: I once witnessed Manargudi Eswaran start work on this Mridangam a full three hours before he was to leave for the concert hall.The tens and hundreds of numerous small things that went into preparation of his instrument.
And
Kalpagam Mami hugging her Veena and weeping -
"I am getting old and my fingers dont obey me - But do I have a life without this Veena ?
So Play I must .The good Lord (or my disciple) will bring the words to mind if I do forget."

Anyone remembers how she entered JJ s home for our concert.Not a single word of socialising , but straight to the designated place.

Let us not fool ourselves .These artists are indeed Angels who condescend to play for us. I cannot understand it any other way.

Well said Cool sir. You have always been a treasure of information and have provided proper direction. Even i maintain this system of deadline for mridangam preparation. I keep 3 days in advance for any mridangam to be ready for the concert and keep checking for the next three days for sruti variations. Members might wonder if the same thing can be done if i have concerts daily. Presume i have a concert on 20th - then i try to get the instrument ready by 17th. 21st- Instrument should be ready by 18th and so on. Just set the sruti of the instrument perfectly which takes about 1/2 an hour to one hour of setting playing resetting playing and then seeing the response of the instrument till the concert day --> all these things go a long way in preparation of the instrument. Even with all these preparations sometimes the instrument can play havoc due to excess light on the stage coupled with near-zero chillness in the auditorium.

Homework never fails.

J.Balaji

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 18 Mar 2009, 13:54

coolkarni wrote:These artists are indeed Angels who condescend to play for us

Amen! I often secretly check if their feet touch the ground as they walk in and out of the auditorium. I can swear that for some of them it doesn't.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 18 Mar 2009, 14:02

Cool,

So touchingly said

Ashwin · Post by **Ashwin** » 18 Mar 2009, 20:51

karthikbala wrote:
Ashwin wrote: And if there is merit to be derived in an artiste's age/lineage? By way of elements other than voice, Sruti, and kaNakku? What is 'merit'?

Ashwin
I'm not sure I understand you... so if sruti, voice, and laya go for a toss, it is still possible to savour a satisfying performance, compensated by "merit to be derived in an artiste's age/lineage" ??!!!!???

The point I was trying to make is that evaluating a rendition is different from evaluating a musician. The merit of lineage/age (if any) is to be discovered in the process of listening and not from the biodata.
A wine should be judged by taste, not the label; hence the concept of blind tasting! A duck by Sri Tendulkar is as bad as a duck by a tail-ender, but is not by itself a significant commentary on his worth.

Most of us did not have the chance to see the performances of great veterans and masters when they were in their prime. Today, they may lapse variously in sruti, voice, and kaNakku (I believe layam stays with a musician), but there is still much to be gained from their music (e.g. from their vidvat, pAThAntaram, stage presence, the nostalgic effect of their music, etc.). And musically: sometimes we must see what musicians intend to convey - this is an invaluable glimpse into the music of their prime, and is something potentially far greater than can be summed up by sruti, voice, and/or kaNakku, IMHO.

Ashwin

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 19 Mar 2009, 10:00

Ashwin wrote: Most of us did not have the chance to see the performances of great veterans and masters when they were in their prime. Today, they may lapse variously in sruti, voice, and kaNakku (I believe layam stays with a musician), but there is still much to be gained from their music (e.g. from their vidvat, pAThAntaram, stage presence, the nostalgic effect of their music, etc.). And musically: sometimes we must see what musicians intend to convey - this is an invaluable glimpse into the music of their prime, and is something potentially far greater than can be summed up by sruti, voice, and/or kaNakku, IMHO.
Ashwin

I agree with you, but would also think that a concert and a master class are two different things and cater to different target audiences.

narayan · Post by **narayan** » 19 Mar 2009, 15:19

coolkarni wrote: I still dont understand what is it that Srikanth was trying to open up , for a heightened level of perception.

Dear Cool,

I think Srikanth has said it quite explicitly in the last line of his post. We cut more slack for sruti slips for vocalists than for instrumentalists. Why is that? I think it is a valid query. rbharath and others have posed the extension of this in what makes for popular concerts, and lamenting the raw deal to instrumental music in CM, per se.

My conclusion is that the instrumental tradition in CM should develop distinct from kritis and their repeated rendering (I'm not disputing that Koniyadina is a great kriti, but there is far more to Kambhoji than any one or even all great kritis in that ragam). When we can have a little bit of pure music with whatever aesthetics we identify with the CM style, then instrumentalists will have a much bigger role to play and I look forward to that.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 19 Mar 2009, 17:07

@ Coolji

I regard Kalpakam Swaminathan and Mannargudi Easwaran as worshippable angels too.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 Mar 2009, 20:00

I think they are all human, very human.

Very wonderfully human!

But then, I've always thought that human beings were under-rated beings.

Of course, many of us are hovering around the normal or average markers. Great performers in any art show a glimpse of how much more great being human can be, as do great thinkers, great craftsmen, and sometimes even those whose accomplishments are only simple, but performed with great love and dedication.

I'm a great fan of humans

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Mar 2009, 22:00

I am too, Nick--of the ones who 'walk' but can elevate us by the way they tread the ground and inspire us to look up to them when their ideas, ideals or imaginaton make them soar...

Srikant,
My comments were not about what you were saying, but about...trolls?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 20 Mar 2009, 14:42

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 20 Mar 2009, 14:42

erode14 · Post by **erode14** » 20 Mar 2009, 15:04

dear coolji, if you get an error message while posting your reply, just copy the content(to be at the safe side) and refresh the page, that is what I did and it worked.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 20 Mar 2009, 17:42

@ Coolji,

I'm sorry because the "cutting more slack" thing is a term in the wrong direction. I think people get upset more easily with slips in an instrumental music than in vocal music (instead of paying attention to all the beautiful things instrumentalists play). I hope that is OK?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 20 Mar 2009, 18:00

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 20 Mar 2009, 18:30

coolkarni wrote: In Fact we have decided to make 2009-10(monthly concerts) as a year for Veena alone-.

That's great news Coolji

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 21 Mar 2009, 13:09

Slips in performances? They should be banned.

Oops, I was thinking of chits in performances.
Oh well...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 21 Mar 2009, 16:56

I think it is most improper to take any view of what a performer wears under her sari!

(slip as in petticoat, underskirt...)

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 21 Mar 2009, 17:48

nick H wrote:I think it is most improper to take any view of what a performer wears under her sari!

View! Another punster at work!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Mar 2009, 20:27

No, Nick is going back to the old and familiar Readers Digest (needs an apostrophe?) feature: Sorry, Your Slip is Showing--that's why I referred it to Cool, the great quoter at first. This segment of the magazine kept decades of readers in stiches--this 'slip', in stiches. Well, thanks to the dual drummers, pun and fun are very much in vogue on the forum now! Besides punnAgavarALi, 'pun' Agap pADuvadum (to sing in puns too) might get to be fashionable, who knows?

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 23 Mar 2009, 10:19

A relevant social experiment on audience perception of quality in classical music:
http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/bell.asp

Rather startling in its results, indicating that many listeners for classical music need to be reassured that they are listening to quality music either by steep ticket prices, posh settings, performer reputations, reviews etc. An interesting highlight is the reaction of the children which also ties in with my personal experience.
One wonders if instead of pretentious reviews taking up space in the media, we should just record ratings by kids and animals. plants too maybe... there was a plant-music demonstration by some researchers organised by carnatica (?) a while ago

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 23 Mar 2009, 11:52

If anyone wants to go further into that experiment and search, I think we did a thread about it at the time?

But has anyone made the point that everybody makes mistakes?

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 23 Mar 2009, 20:14

We may not have this problem in CM, notwithstanding coffee-table books and slick music movies...
The knowledgeable rasikas still go and listen to high quality music in modest locations, e.g. temples

Another recent example - Sowmya's top quality concert, in a very average setting:
http://rasikas.org/forums/post112531.html#p112531

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 23 Mar 2009, 20:54

@ Karthikbala

It's just that people may have some other pressing work to do as they walk on the road. Kids (and animals and plants) usually have more leisure in their lives, and so can just stand and stare. Though that's probably not true for Indian kids even! They'll probably be being taken to some class or another by their parents.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Mar 2009, 23:57

karthikbala wrote:A relevant social experiment on audience perception of quality in classical music:
http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/bell.asp

The previous thread on the Joshua Bell experiment: http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... -post.html

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 24 Mar 2009, 00:32

ragam-talam wrote: View! Another punster at work!

You must have meant "Whew!". This looks like a slip while posting

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 24 Mar 2009, 03:35

It wasn't a slip.
Nick wrote: "I think it is most improper to take any view of what a performer wears under her sari!"
And I was commenting on the wonderful pun (or is that double entendre?).

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Mar 2009, 03:37

Phew! And for all to 'view' too!
Are we getting giddy with grammar 'dunking' along with the pun ride? If this goes on, we all may have to take 'Rasikas' entrance exams before we post. Whew