I remember the immortal Mali. There never was a lack of attendance at his concerts in spite of his vagaries as well as no-shows. Folks knew his genius and were willing to tolerate anything. In temple festivals folks would travel miles just to hear him while nobody (even vocalists (barring MS) commanded such crowds. Mali was never an accompanist! He did not become famous through marketing either.
if you build it, they will come .. is not just true for baseball-parks...
What attracts crowds to a concert??
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srikant1987
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23
That's a very valid point, actually. (That also explains why you don't miss Professor Krishnan's programmes!) But I assure you, RKSK will not let you down with this. A friend of mine says Varadarajan is very good too.One problem I have is that when I hear violinists speeding in solos and duets, I am switched off, however beautiful their playing is.
A sample: http://sangeethamshare.org/tvg/UPLOADS- ... .64-MB.mp3
Last edited by srikant1987 on 22 Jan 2009, 21:47, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
- Posts: 3424
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41
Here is a possibility:
I hypothesize that in general rasikas want/prefer-to-have the ability to *easily* associate with the lyrics of the songs they are familiar with as someone sings it. This is even if they dont understand the meaning. While we have argued back and forth on how important sahitya is, I think in CM, the songs themselves play an important role of being easily recognizable. In other words, while you may like the raga kharaharapriya in its abstract forms (alapanas, kalpanaswaras), you have a special association with chakkani raja. You may not know the exact words but you have know enough to *easily* follow along closely. Even here in forum song lists generate a lot of attention (perhaps too much
).
I think this *easy* association gets lost in an instrumental music. Perhaps most of the audience find it them harder to associate to a violinist playing cakkani raja - vs. a singer singing. Even for people who know the song intimately, the nature of association is different.
For example, have you tried listening to instrumental versions of famous hits - be it film songs or western songs? Granted it is not exactly an apples-to-apples (as there is only original voiced version), but still your association with even the familiar song is at a different level.
Now take HM. I may be wrong but most music there - even ones with words, is improvisational (i.e. like an extended neraval). Hence this (proposed) advantage of easy association with vocal concert we find it CM is not there in HM. Now of course this does not explain why vocal in HM does not have equal footing
Arun
I hypothesize that in general rasikas want/prefer-to-have the ability to *easily* associate with the lyrics of the songs they are familiar with as someone sings it. This is even if they dont understand the meaning. While we have argued back and forth on how important sahitya is, I think in CM, the songs themselves play an important role of being easily recognizable. In other words, while you may like the raga kharaharapriya in its abstract forms (alapanas, kalpanaswaras), you have a special association with chakkani raja. You may not know the exact words but you have know enough to *easily* follow along closely. Even here in forum song lists generate a lot of attention (perhaps too much
).I think this *easy* association gets lost in an instrumental music. Perhaps most of the audience find it them harder to associate to a violinist playing cakkani raja - vs. a singer singing. Even for people who know the song intimately, the nature of association is different.
For example, have you tried listening to instrumental versions of famous hits - be it film songs or western songs? Granted it is not exactly an apples-to-apples (as there is only original voiced version), but still your association with even the familiar song is at a different level.
Now take HM. I may be wrong but most music there - even ones with words, is improvisational (i.e. like an extended neraval). Hence this (proposed) advantage of easy association with vocal concert we find it CM is not there in HM. Now of course this does not explain why vocal in HM does not have equal footing
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 22 Jan 2009, 23:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
rbharath has raised an interesting issue which is very important and very relevant too. For answering his question I went back in time to the 50s and 60s and collected my memories about the comments made by fellow rasikas as to why they enjoyed certain instrumentalists and not others. I also examined my own likes and dislikes. The following is a summary.
It appears that different sections in the audience reacted differently. But a trend could be seen that there were clear groups who ‘hero worshipped’ one musician or the other. The youngsters were fascinated by GNB’s speed, some by Ariyakkudi’s special treatment of ragas, others by Semmangudi’s krithi deleanation and intricate swara prastharams. Madurai Mani had his own fans while rasikas wanted good treatment of krithis avoided him. MDR fans were looking for intense slow moving music. MSS had her own female rasika following. Mali was crowd puller by virtue of his antics. Palghat Mani Iyer had his own charm on the stage which attracted a lot of rasikas. While many rasikas were involved in more than one group, there were also who were not involved in hero worship.
But one thing that was common was that all the popular musicians had the ‘charishma’ which pulled the crowds. The musicians were very active, visibly also, on the stage. They were actively interacting with the accompanists. Some of the ‘saval jawabs’ were intense and exciting. The experience was that of watching a musical contest. Some artist had dramatic hand and face movements which were so attractive that made the listener yearn for more. Musicians who did not develop this dramatic art did have the crowd pulling capacity. TNK had a special charm on the stage that attracted a lot of rasikas. Careful choice of items to satisfy all the sections of the rasikas, by including rakthi ragas, speedy compositions, devotional items etc., also contributed heavily in securing fans.
The decline of popularity of instrumental music could attributed to the lack of excitement in performance. Except perhaps Mali and Balachandar, instrumentalists generally could not develop this aspect of performance. Possibly because their hands were tied up in playing the instruments and their voice could not utilized. They could deliver the best of music but sans the drama. Dwaram was one of those who was not fortunate to have overflowing halls.
So far as solo violin concerts are concerned, the activity on the stage, which is the fodder for lay rasikas, would be missing unless the violinist is somebody like Kunnakkudi. That is why duets in violin fill in the gap and provide some watchable activity. While the Hindustani instrumentalist interact heavily with the tablist the vocalists do not, and that is why vocal music is on the wane.
Very few in the present day can be compared with MSG,TNK, Lalgudi. Sheer power of their years of practice and superb technique would be the two factors that place them far apart from others. Combined with it is their acute sense of audience psychology. Apart from it favourable comments from people like violinist Yehudi Menuhin give them a great mileage in popularity. Even today a violin solo can pull crowds if the concert is played keeping these points in view.
It appears that different sections in the audience reacted differently. But a trend could be seen that there were clear groups who ‘hero worshipped’ one musician or the other. The youngsters were fascinated by GNB’s speed, some by Ariyakkudi’s special treatment of ragas, others by Semmangudi’s krithi deleanation and intricate swara prastharams. Madurai Mani had his own fans while rasikas wanted good treatment of krithis avoided him. MDR fans were looking for intense slow moving music. MSS had her own female rasika following. Mali was crowd puller by virtue of his antics. Palghat Mani Iyer had his own charm on the stage which attracted a lot of rasikas. While many rasikas were involved in more than one group, there were also who were not involved in hero worship.
But one thing that was common was that all the popular musicians had the ‘charishma’ which pulled the crowds. The musicians were very active, visibly also, on the stage. They were actively interacting with the accompanists. Some of the ‘saval jawabs’ were intense and exciting. The experience was that of watching a musical contest. Some artist had dramatic hand and face movements which were so attractive that made the listener yearn for more. Musicians who did not develop this dramatic art did have the crowd pulling capacity. TNK had a special charm on the stage that attracted a lot of rasikas. Careful choice of items to satisfy all the sections of the rasikas, by including rakthi ragas, speedy compositions, devotional items etc., also contributed heavily in securing fans.
The decline of popularity of instrumental music could attributed to the lack of excitement in performance. Except perhaps Mali and Balachandar, instrumentalists generally could not develop this aspect of performance. Possibly because their hands were tied up in playing the instruments and their voice could not utilized. They could deliver the best of music but sans the drama. Dwaram was one of those who was not fortunate to have overflowing halls.
So far as solo violin concerts are concerned, the activity on the stage, which is the fodder for lay rasikas, would be missing unless the violinist is somebody like Kunnakkudi. That is why duets in violin fill in the gap and provide some watchable activity. While the Hindustani instrumentalist interact heavily with the tablist the vocalists do not, and that is why vocal music is on the wane.
Very few in the present day can be compared with MSG,TNK, Lalgudi. Sheer power of their years of practice and superb technique would be the two factors that place them far apart from others. Combined with it is their acute sense of audience psychology. Apart from it favourable comments from people like violinist Yehudi Menuhin give them a great mileage in popularity. Even today a violin solo can pull crowds if the concert is played keeping these points in view.
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Arun,
You are so right. Yes, words in the first line of a song and popular neraval lines DO get lodged in the minds of listeners, even if they do not know the language.
Shivadasan,
Many interesting points in your post which as an old timer I recognize. However, why do you say MSS had her own female following? Many men were drawn to her performances too.
You are so right. Yes, words in the first line of a song and popular neraval lines DO get lodged in the minds of listeners, even if they do not know the language.
Shivadasan,
Many interesting points in your post which as an old timer I recognize. However, why do you say MSS had her own female following? Many men were drawn to her performances too.
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rajeshnat
- Posts: 10144
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
For sure many of us attend lots of concerts , I think there is inertia in starting a new post in kutcheri reviews by 99% of the rasikas that is giving a notion that we are focussing on only few artists, by few people.
Unfortunately putting the song list is a big impediment that is not allowing many of us to get out of inertia.I suggest rasikas to use this link to get the song list so that they can over come that inertia . Of course one can always post reviews without song list , that requires memory, more flair for writing etc, which honestly I dont have.
The link of the almost exhaustive song list is http://www.karnatik.com/lyricstext.shtml
Why am I not attending all other non vocal concerts , I guess arun's response is spot on and I have more bias towards vocal as deep down I have this ego that I am singing .
Unfortunately putting the song list is a big impediment that is not allowing many of us to get out of inertia.I suggest rasikas to use this link to get the song list so that they can over come that inertia . Of course one can always post reviews without song list , that requires memory, more flair for writing etc, which honestly I dont have.
The link of the almost exhaustive song list is http://www.karnatik.com/lyricstext.shtml
Why am I not attending all other non vocal concerts , I guess arun's response is spot on and I have more bias towards vocal as deep down I have this ego that I am singing
.
Last edited by rajeshnat on 23 Jan 2009, 22:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Shivadasan
- Posts: 251
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52
arasi,
Many of my friends used to go to MSS concert just to see the bejeweled grandeur of the phenominal number of female fans who were at anytime more than the male followers. While going back almost all the ladies used to be discussing the saree, the ear rings, flower arrangements, her smile her manners and wondering how she represented and ideal female idol and not a word about ragas and swaras. Every girl in those days wanted to be like MS and sing like MS. MS's looks were a household discussion in every household whether they liked CM or not.
Shivadasan
Many of my friends used to go to MSS concert just to see the bejeweled grandeur of the phenominal number of female fans who were at anytime more than the male followers. While going back almost all the ladies used to be discussing the saree, the ear rings, flower arrangements, her smile her manners and wondering how she represented and ideal female idol and not a word about ragas and swaras. Every girl in those days wanted to be like MS and sing like MS. MS's looks were a household discussion in every household whether they liked CM or not.
Shivadasan
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Yes, MS blue being the 'in' color for saris and so on. However, they went to hear her music too, a large number of them. Nothing to compare with women (and men?) attending the concerts of several bejeweled, brocade silk sari-clad contemporaries whose attire attracts more crowd than their music--just as big star names draw crowds at the box office? Then there was DKP, and you found a good number of females attending the concerts of this simply clad, far from glamorous vidUshi too...
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ananth krishna
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 01 Nov 2008, 16:37
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LovingCM
- Posts: 18
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 01:16
Here is a different reason.
Even though I am a die hard fan of SriramKumar and Varadarajan, I did not read the Hindu on the day of RKSK's concert.
I had my cousin visiting me on the Day of Varadarajan's Concert and She did not want to leave, telling me that I go to way too many concerts and do not even bother about visiting relatives while I am in India. Ofcourse, I regret missing both the concerts because, I have been wanting to attend their Solo for a very long time.
Obviously, I am posting this late as i am catching up with Rasikas.org
and still regretting...
Even though I am a die hard fan of SriramKumar and Varadarajan, I did not read the Hindu on the day of RKSK's concert.
I had my cousin visiting me on the Day of Varadarajan's Concert and She did not want to leave, telling me that I go to way too many concerts and do not even bother about visiting relatives while I am in India. Ofcourse, I regret missing both the concerts because, I have been wanting to attend their Solo for a very long time.
Obviously, I am posting this late as i am catching up with Rasikas.org
and still regretting...
Last edited by LovingCM on 18 Mar 2009, 06:23, edited 1 time in total.
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munirao2001
- Posts: 1334
- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
This is indeed very important post from the point of view of expanding the base of CM rasikas.
I do not know whether any body has done MR/Doctoral thesis. A serious and superb study and publishing the paper on this would be helping all the Artistes, Organizers/event managers, opinion makers and rasikas. A well educated and dedicated professional/professional orgainizations has to do the study for meaningful results and actions.
At all the times-whether earlier two or three generations or the present two generations or in future- the fact will remain same. The fact is ONLY IMMENSELY POPULAR Artistes, whether they are Vocalists or instrumentalists, draw crowds- consisting of all categories of rasikas. With abundant luck/yogam-right place-right time-artiste gains popularity. In general, it's futile to find the right formula for success. It just happens. The reasons are known by analysing that particular happening, but sadly can not be replicated or applied for and by every body. Only scientific study can give empirical and objective factors for the success and can become effective practicing tools. Success, still can not be guaranteed.
Behind every successful/popular artists, there were/are hundreds of artistes of exemplary or equal calibre/vidwat and sadhana/practice to have missed the patronage of rasikas and success, becoming elusive for them.
I strongly feel that if MERITOCRACY - consisting of both Vidwat , art and craft of performing(delivering total satisfaction to the rasikas)- is given prime or the only consideration by all the concerned - Artistes,Organizers, sponsors, opinion makers and rasikas, we can see the change and change for the better. To determine the merit, a selection/ranking comittee, consisting of Great Maestro-Vidwan/Vidushi-respected music critic(with both lakshya and lakshana gnanam,)well respected representative of Organizers-deidicated sponsor(individual/Corporate/NRI)-reperesentative(s) from opinion makers(Individual,print and visual media,music recording co's)-Govt bodies(AIR/State or Central/Sangeeth Natak Acadamy)-representative rasikas, both knowledgeable and lay- to be formed, with a tenure of two years. The committee to evolve transperant methods of selection/ranking of both the current performing artistes and potential/up coming artistes. The artistes should apply for consideration, irrespective of their present status. The results of seledtion/ranking to be made public. The opportunities to be given to the ranked artistes. If the committee can also recommend min.remuneration/fees, it will be better.
munirao2001
I do not know whether any body has done MR/Doctoral thesis. A serious and superb study and publishing the paper on this would be helping all the Artistes, Organizers/event managers, opinion makers and rasikas. A well educated and dedicated professional/professional orgainizations has to do the study for meaningful results and actions.
At all the times-whether earlier two or three generations or the present two generations or in future- the fact will remain same. The fact is ONLY IMMENSELY POPULAR Artistes, whether they are Vocalists or instrumentalists, draw crowds- consisting of all categories of rasikas. With abundant luck/yogam-right place-right time-artiste gains popularity. In general, it's futile to find the right formula for success. It just happens. The reasons are known by analysing that particular happening, but sadly can not be replicated or applied for and by every body. Only scientific study can give empirical and objective factors for the success and can become effective practicing tools. Success, still can not be guaranteed.
Behind every successful/popular artists, there were/are hundreds of artistes of exemplary or equal calibre/vidwat and sadhana/practice to have missed the patronage of rasikas and success, becoming elusive for them.
I strongly feel that if MERITOCRACY - consisting of both Vidwat , art and craft of performing(delivering total satisfaction to the rasikas)- is given prime or the only consideration by all the concerned - Artistes,Organizers, sponsors, opinion makers and rasikas, we can see the change and change for the better. To determine the merit, a selection/ranking comittee, consisting of Great Maestro-Vidwan/Vidushi-respected music critic(with both lakshya and lakshana gnanam,)well respected representative of Organizers-deidicated sponsor(individual/Corporate/NRI)-reperesentative(s) from opinion makers(Individual,print and visual media,music recording co's)-Govt bodies(AIR/State or Central/Sangeeth Natak Acadamy)-representative rasikas, both knowledgeable and lay- to be formed, with a tenure of two years. The committee to evolve transperant methods of selection/ranking of both the current performing artistes and potential/up coming artistes. The artistes should apply for consideration, irrespective of their present status. The results of seledtion/ranking to be made public. The opportunities to be given to the ranked artistes. If the committee can also recommend min.remuneration/fees, it will be better.
munirao2001
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
With your first-paragraph analysis I completely agree --- In general, it's futile to find the right formula for success.
With your solution, if I may refer to it thus, I cannot agree, mainly on the purely practical ground that such a thing would never, ever come about in a very loosely formed community that consists of hundreds (thousands?) of artists and dozens of individual organisations and organisers.
Whether or not it would be beneficial if it did come about is another matter. I have two reactions that I will present as feelings, rather than as arguments --- one is that it would lead to a situation of the public, effectively, being told who we should and should not enjoy, and the other is that it gives me a formalin taste, that is that it could lead to museum jars of preserved specimens.
I appreciate, of course, that your wish is to preserve what you see as the finest and best aspects of carnatic music.
With your solution, if I may refer to it thus, I cannot agree, mainly on the purely practical ground that such a thing would never, ever come about in a very loosely formed community that consists of hundreds (thousands?) of artists and dozens of individual organisations and organisers.
Whether or not it would be beneficial if it did come about is another matter. I have two reactions that I will present as feelings, rather than as arguments --- one is that it would lead to a situation of the public, effectively, being told who we should and should not enjoy, and the other is that it gives me a formalin taste, that is that it could lead to museum jars of preserved specimens.
I appreciate, of course, that your wish is to preserve what you see as the finest and best aspects of carnatic music.
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karthikbala
- Posts: 221
- Joined: 05 Feb 2010, 09:58
While "meritocracy" is indeed desirable, it seems an unattainable Holy Grail in the CM context. The film industry for instance is by and large merit driven (people tend not to risk large investments on singers who emit one abaswaram after another), However, film music (the singing part, if not other aspects) is relatively simpler and notion of quality is more precise, with good voices, pitch fidelity being usually a given. Singers are changed/replaced at the drop of a hat if the track is not approved/satisfactory etc.munirao2001 wrote: I strongly feel that if MERITOCRACY - consisting of both Vidwat , art and craft of performing(delivering total satisfaction to the rasikas)- is given prime or the only consideration by all the concerned - Artistes,Organizers, sponsors, opinion makers and rasikas, we can see the change and change for the better...
munirao2001
Alas, in CM, a slap-dash kutcheri can be put together in a jiffy, for a pittance. It is acceptable if a performer lands up in the nick of time (sometimes breathless after a prior engagement!). Gate-collection is hardly an issue and is meagre in any case. If the artiste can hardly cobble together one decent sounding phrase, so what... reviewers can put any amount of spin on it later.
Unlike those who rant about CM being diluted by this and that, I do not believe innovation, experimentation (even spectacular failures) or even plain-ole-playing-to-the-gallery can dilute it. It is the over-abundance of RANK BAD SINGING that gives CM an unprepossessing image. "Three Tenors" shows did a lot to popularise opera in recent times, despite its gimmicky approach. Although I cannot sit through one today (their voices dont gel at all), I must admit being hooked by them initially.
Take AIR for instance: there is so much cacophony being broadcast by 'A' grade artistes who are long past their "use-by" dates. The grading should be reviewed every year or at least at some feasible interval. Senior artistes should be honoured and efforts taken for their immense vidhwat to be showcased and disseminated appropriately, and not by putting them on the spot where they end up tarnishing their own legacy and that of CM. In the good old days, bad recordings just went out of print and old copies got worn out. With today's digital media, the junk can linger around like non-biodegradable plastic.
For CM to become merit-driven, either (or both) it has to be driven by a larger population of rasikas voting with their feet and wallets, or driven by credible institutions that rise above amateurism and parochial, personal, petty, and nepotistic considerations. As I opined in another thread, the CM eco-system is a fetid patronage-driven one where merit is purely incidental.
We just have to look at any successful cultural institution in the world and it is obvious that we are a long long way from "meritocracy"!
Last edited by karthikbala on 08 Jul 2009, 19:13, edited 1 time in total.
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vallaki
- Posts: 81
- Joined: 02 Jul 2009, 20:45
srikant1987 wrote:The veena has probably been dismissed as too slow (so people like T R Venkataraman get dismissed too!), and the nadaswaram as incapable of producing accurate notes (including people like Mambalam Siva). The flute never really was popular, was it? Somehow, there's been monopoly in flute, I feel.rbharath wrote:. The fiddle too?
.
Ok, I am going to write something at the risk of getting very heavily criticized::
About the Veena -
It is not too slow. It depends on who the Vainika is.
Chittibabu gave the veena a huge lift , and a glamour quotient. Gayathri instills very deep respect and reverence. Rajesh Vaidhya 'Rocks' it !!!
Jayanthi makes the veena sing, And enough cannot be said of the Great Emani Shankar Shasthry.
But if Vainikas insist that it should only imitate the Human Voice (Which is an in built quality of the veena), Then that style of playing becomes limited.
Vocalists must sing the way that is best suited for human voice(Which is in many styles), and Vainikas must play the way that best suits this great instrument(Which also is in many styles). The instrument's secret sounds and resonance shall then be revealed in Resplendent glory.I have had the fortune of listening to Vainikas play at blistering speed, rendering me speechless.I have heard renditions that are slow and profound.And then the divine thanams that cannot be rendered in a comparable way on any other instrument or even the human voice!!!
(I am not a huge fan of the gayaki bani or any single bani). I think the Veena is very versatile to be associated with any single bani, which will make it look like a boring instrument.
Now , Why do people flock to certain kutcheris and not other ::
1)The Artist has to be immensely talented. This is a very essential quality.
2)Even though the artist is immensely talented, the choice of songs is not easily appreciated by a common kutcheri going CM Lover who is primarily a rasika , and not a vidhwan/student of CM.Manytimes, the song choice is such that only a musician's musician can appreciate.
3)There needs to be lively light moments , hillarity, and a sunny atmosphere. I for one love the 'Showmen' - (O.S. Arun, T.M.K , and othere, do continue the oohs and aahs you utter please).Irritating to some, lively to others, this sure draws attention. People 'TALK' about this and remember the artist/song. The more nicknames an upcoming artist gets, the better.This means he is gaining popularity. To an extent, we can call Aruna Sairam and Sudha show women, as they do have a sunny personality that is very appealing.(Please do smile a lot, we like it. OK. You can frown and shake your kudimi, and keep a poker face or the typical 'I am a vidwan- You cannot beat me face'- we like that too). But please do not always have a 'serious' face- that is boring!!!!! ( Other than sheer talent , Kunnakudi's gimmiks on stage too were hugely popular!!!). And yes , do also please bring on the pattu podavais, mALLIGAI POO, and vaira mookuthis and Vaira thodus etc AS WELL !!
4) Now, Even an ardent Rasika does not have an akshaya patram like wallet. I as a rasika strongly believe that , just as a dharmam,Carnatic musicians must give a few FREE ADMISSION kutcheris here and there, or atleast where tickets are cheap. (!!!!!). Then Do advertise that the Kutcheri is for free.(I will be there for sure if it is in NJ !!!!). Also , please ensure that the free kutcheris are in Venues where there will be also be elite,snobbish, nose in the air rasikas ( Now I love these funny rasikas too!!).
I can go on.. But am thinking , innum yezhidhina , seerupaddi tha kadaikum.
So please excuse me. This is just my personal opinion any ways !!!
Last edited by vallaki on 09 Jul 2009, 02:49, edited 1 time in total.
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VK RAMAN
- Posts: 5009
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ragam-talam
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
Not so. Popularity and vidwat (talent) are not correlated as such. What appeals to the gallery can often be difficult to figure out. The 'package' may be more important than the 'core quality'.1)The Artist has to be immensely talented. This is a very essential quality.
I won't name names, but there are examples out there today (as they were in the past).
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
A case in point:
MDR who is highly regarded by most at this Forum often played to empty houses.
On the otherhand KJY who is not highly rated (in CM) by many always draws a full house.
Will it be possible to analyze objectively what clicks and what does not (without drawing the ire of our membership!
MDR who is highly regarded by most at this Forum often played to empty houses.
On the otherhand KJY who is not highly rated (in CM) by many always draws a full house.
Will it be possible to analyze objectively what clicks and what does not (without drawing the ire of our membership!
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johnlovescm
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 07 Jun 2009, 18:40
MDR had a niche following. His music was not appreciated when he was alive. It was beyond understanding of a music lover of limited knowledge. Now people crave for his music. One of the members in another context had quoted elsewhere " Kazhudaikku theriyuma karpoora vasanai". We the Kazhudais are able to appreciate MDR atleast nowcmlover wrote:A case in point:
MDR who is highly regarded by most at this Forum often played to empty houses.
On the otherhand KJY who is not highly rated (in CM) by many always draws a full house.
Will it be possible to analyze objectively what clicks and what does not (without drawing the ire of our membership!
MDR sang for himselfKJY - Had a mass following. His film industry exposure attracted lot of crowd. Perhaps singing light classical songs in the concerts made it more attractive for a common man to appreciate his music.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
>The film industry for instance is by and large merit driven (people tend not to risk large investments on singers who emit one abaswaram after another)
I am on the same wavelength as karthikbala about CM singers and AIR. But in film music industry, the problem was, at least 10-20 years ago both in Tamil and Hindi, it was dominated by a very few singers. It is hard to imagine that there were not enough other singers out there in our vast country who could not sing at the same level or even better. A lot of talented singers did not get a chance. Meritocracy claim can be questioned on that front. I think there was a huge patronage aspect figuring there also, it is not patronizing bad singers but leaving out good singers. Also, with film music singers, though a good voice. sruthi suddham and singing the relatively simple tunes in an attractive fashion are necessary, proper pronunciation of words is not. For years they can mispronounce some common words and still continue to get chances to sing.
I am on the same wavelength as karthikbala about CM singers and AIR. But in film music industry, the problem was, at least 10-20 years ago both in Tamil and Hindi, it was dominated by a very few singers. It is hard to imagine that there were not enough other singers out there in our vast country who could not sing at the same level or even better. A lot of talented singers did not get a chance. Meritocracy claim can be questioned on that front. I think there was a huge patronage aspect figuring there also, it is not patronizing bad singers but leaving out good singers. Also, with film music singers, though a good voice. sruthi suddham and singing the relatively simple tunes in an attractive fashion are necessary, proper pronunciation of words is not. For years they can mispronounce some common words and still continue to get chances to sing.
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munirao2001
- Posts: 1334
- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
Nick.H.
- On practicality of the idea-professionalizing the management-with active co-operation and support for the ultimate Goal from CM Artistes Association(s), Federation of Organizations (by either merging or closing down of the mushroom iefficient sabhas) and few Trusts, special purpose vehicles, well funded by individual donors, corporate houses and Govt/Govt.undertakings/PSU's, will make it eminently practical. To get them accepted, the professionalism exhibited in management, is quintessential. It is possible. It has happened/happening for Western Music.
- On Choices and tastes - Braod based committee(s) with rankings, will continue to offer, better informed choices. Severe/stiff competition among the artistes to attain the top rankings, will ensure excellance and rasika satisfaction and music will not be of formalin taste, I am sure.
Karthikbala
- It is true feelings and genuine apprehension, with element of despondancy that CM practices are not conducive for merit. But this is becuase of failings on many fronts and poor management. My idea is a ways and means for correcting the maladies of ' cutcheri ' music in CM.
- novelty factor(s) will always attract and excites, but temporarily. Artistes will continue to be exploring to attract and excite the rasikas.
- with all the shortcomings and managerial limitations, AIR/DD continue to be the only institutions for giving opportunites to artistes, irrespective of the popularity quotient.. Remedial measures are to make them, autonomous, professional and competitive.
- basic elements of my idea is definitely, with limited knowledge, based on the orgainzational execellance of cultural institutions, serving the cause of Western Music.
-film music is not based on purely merit. The primary focus is on marketability of their film music and the film and becoming money spinner. The distributors/exhibitors, producers, directors and stars influence and bring pressure on music directors/composers. The maestro composers/music directors, continue to give meritorius music, inspite of the pressures/dictats/demands on them.
VKRaman
- Application of Marketing and Sales techniques and tools, professionally, will get tremendous boost with rankings. Community comprising of large and lay listeners will find it much simpler/easy for making their choices
-one of the strong reasons and causative factor for the quality sufferance in CM is 'tenga mudi'/free cutcheris. Temple music/concerts, will remain, by and large free. But my request for the rasikas is to take the 'arathi tattu' offerings seriously as a means of support to the organization/artistes.
cmloiver
- thanks for initiating very important aspect of analyzing the factors of 'clicking' and not 'clicking'. I wish all the rasikas post their serious and well considered posts on this thread. It will not only be useful but also very helpful for the decision making, by all the concerned.
- my observation and study revealed on the clicking factors
- above average talent, practice, presentation and performing skills.
- popularity of the Guru and well published blessings of the religious head(s).
- attractive voice, spontanity, ability to excite and good net working ability.
- hitting the platform, young and early.
- publicising the success and endorsements from successfull persons in the society.
- uncanny ability to understand the expectations and demands of the rasikas and fine tuning their
performances to meet the same. Effective communication with rasikas to arouse, arrest and keep
their rivetting attention on them and their music.
- high profile and show of wealth.
- above all, damn smile of lady of luck !
- On practicality of the idea-professionalizing the management-with active co-operation and support for the ultimate Goal from CM Artistes Association(s), Federation of Organizations (by either merging or closing down of the mushroom iefficient sabhas) and few Trusts, special purpose vehicles, well funded by individual donors, corporate houses and Govt/Govt.undertakings/PSU's, will make it eminently practical. To get them accepted, the professionalism exhibited in management, is quintessential. It is possible. It has happened/happening for Western Music.
- On Choices and tastes - Braod based committee(s) with rankings, will continue to offer, better informed choices. Severe/stiff competition among the artistes to attain the top rankings, will ensure excellance and rasika satisfaction and music will not be of formalin taste, I am sure.
Karthikbala
- It is true feelings and genuine apprehension, with element of despondancy that CM practices are not conducive for merit. But this is becuase of failings on many fronts and poor management. My idea is a ways and means for correcting the maladies of ' cutcheri ' music in CM.
- novelty factor(s) will always attract and excites, but temporarily. Artistes will continue to be exploring to attract and excite the rasikas.
- with all the shortcomings and managerial limitations, AIR/DD continue to be the only institutions for giving opportunites to artistes, irrespective of the popularity quotient.. Remedial measures are to make them, autonomous, professional and competitive.
- basic elements of my idea is definitely, with limited knowledge, based on the orgainzational execellance of cultural institutions, serving the cause of Western Music.
-film music is not based on purely merit. The primary focus is on marketability of their film music and the film and becoming money spinner. The distributors/exhibitors, producers, directors and stars influence and bring pressure on music directors/composers. The maestro composers/music directors, continue to give meritorius music, inspite of the pressures/dictats/demands on them.
VKRaman
- Application of Marketing and Sales techniques and tools, professionally, will get tremendous boost with rankings. Community comprising of large and lay listeners will find it much simpler/easy for making their choices
-one of the strong reasons and causative factor for the quality sufferance in CM is 'tenga mudi'/free cutcheris. Temple music/concerts, will remain, by and large free. But my request for the rasikas is to take the 'arathi tattu' offerings seriously as a means of support to the organization/artistes.
cmloiver
- thanks for initiating very important aspect of analyzing the factors of 'clicking' and not 'clicking'. I wish all the rasikas post their serious and well considered posts on this thread. It will not only be useful but also very helpful for the decision making, by all the concerned.
- my observation and study revealed on the clicking factors
- above average talent, practice, presentation and performing skills.
- popularity of the Guru and well published blessings of the religious head(s).
- attractive voice, spontanity, ability to excite and good net working ability.
- hitting the platform, young and early.
- publicising the success and endorsements from successfull persons in the society.
- uncanny ability to understand the expectations and demands of the rasikas and fine tuning their
performances to meet the same. Effective communication with rasikas to arouse, arrest and keep
their rivetting attention on them and their music.
- high profile and show of wealth.
- above all, damn smile of lady of luck !
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Most of our concerts are free... In fact I have to admit to greeting "the season" with a kind of meanness which asks, "why should I have to pay to do what I can do for free for the rest of the year?"! We Chennai-ites are spoilt!vallaki wrote:4) Now, Even an ardent Rasika does not have an akshaya patram like wallet. I as a rasika strongly believe that , just as a dharmam,Carnatic musicians must give a few FREE ADMISSION kutcheris here and there, or atleast where tickets are cheap. (!!!!!). Then Do advertise that the Kutcheri is for free.(I will be there for sure if it is in NJ !!!!). Also , please ensure that the free kutcheris are in Venues where there will be also be elite,snobbish, nose in the air rasikas ( Now I love these funny rasikas too!!).
Let us imagine that you and I have, for some years, been secretaries/chairmen/whatever-leading-lights of successful-enough-to-survive sabhas. We enjoy and take pride in our roles, and, as well as being sincerely interested in presenting good music, in our heart-of-hearts we should admit that we also rather enjoy our VIP-row status too. We enjoy our standing with the members and public, and even that the artists treat us with some deference (we are among those that put food on their tables). Like it or not, we have probably had to become practised at organisational politics to maintain our positions.munirao2001 wrote:On practicality of the idea-professionalizing the management-with active co-operation and support for the ultimate Goal from CM Artistes Association(s), Federation of Organizations (by either merging or closing down of the mushroom iefficient sabhas) and few Trusts, special purpose vehicles, well funded by individual donors, corporate houses and Govt/Govt.undertakings/PSU's, will make it eminently practical.
Then, one day, some committee is formed, for the better promotion and preservation (in their view) of carnatic music. Unfortunately, their view does not entirely coincide with ours --- and they want to merge us, or worse. You might have the humility and understanding to stand aside; I am afraid I am not such a perfect person, and I doubt that many are!
Hmmm... carnatic music by powerpoint. I remain cynically convinced that sales and marketing techniques have never done the world any good at all.- Application of Marketing and Sales techniques and tools, professionally, will get tremendous boost with rankings.
I have one point of hesitation in that view, which concerns the Chennai Season. It must surely be the biggest unheard-of event in the world! If some central body took it upon itself to, at least, advertise it, I think it would be good for Chennai.
Last edited by Guest on 09 Jul 2009, 13:30, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
That is a very good beginning. Though our Forum iis not exactly representative of the general population we do have enough knowledge and experience in gauging the pulse of the community to critically assess these points.munirao2001 wrote:- my observation and study revealed on the clicking factors
- above average talent, practice, presentation and performing skills.
- popularity of the Guru and well published blessings of the religious head(s).
- attractive voice, spontanity, ability to excite and good net working ability.
- hitting the platform, young and early.
- publicising the success and endorsements from successfull persons in the society.
- uncanny ability to understand the expectations and demands of the rasikas and fine tuning their
performances to meet the same. Effective communication with rasikas to arouse, arrest and keep
their rivetting attention on them and their music.
- high profile and show of wealth.
- above all, damn smile of lady of luck !
Let me add one important point particularly from a comparison of KJY vs MDR.
As one of you commented, MDR sang for 'himself' while KJY sings for the 'public'. I am not at all referring to any Filmy gimmicks here. Santhanam used to do the same thing who was not into the movies at all. Everybody who came to hear KJY thinks that he is singing to please him and gets fulfilled. MDR was too analytic and tried to present the fine classical aspect of CM which appealed to a select few whereas KJY focusses on the 'bhaavam' and is willing to sacrifice even 'grammar' to reach out to the audience. BMK does it to some extent. The music of one touches your intellect while the other touches your heart! Any day the heart trumps the intellect!
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kadambam
- Posts: 104
- Joined: 12 Jan 2007, 04:10
According to you!!!cmlover wrote: Everybody who came to hear KJY thinks that he is singing to please him and gets fulfilled. MDR was too analytic and tried to present the fine classical aspect of CM which appealed to a select few whereas KJY focusses on the 'bhaavam' and is willing to sacrifice even 'grammar' to reach out to the audience. BMK does it to some extent. The music of one touches your intellect while the other touches your heart! Any day the heart trumps the intellect!
TNS is too analytic and so is BMK. KJY definitely did have the bhavam, as long as it was "Harivarasanam..." But, if you compare a Ksheera Sagara Shayana of MDR's and KJY's, i think there is a sagar of difference, even from a bhavam perspective.
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vallaki
- Posts: 81
- Joined: 02 Jul 2009, 20:45
I Think you are making a good point here , that , 'Bhajana Music' , filled with 'Bhakthi' , Like KJY's Harivarasanam, MSS'S Kurai ondrum illai, Aruna Sairam's 'Theertha Vittala', Or even the commom folk music of Southern India rendered through Kavadi Chindus, or 'MAADU MEIKUM KANNE' type songs , will draw more people , than a spledind Ragam Thanam Pallavi no matter who the singer is.cmlover wrote:.. neither did MDR sing Harivarasanam for us to make a comparison! For every elite who would listen to MDR's Ksheera Sagara there will be fifty commoners who would listen to KJY's Harivarasanam! That is where he clicks!
Additionally, the above mentioned songs , still have lyrics , that can be easily comrehended even today, given that Languages like Tamil, telugu and Kannada have udergone their own evolution too. Most of the carnatic songs in the above mentioned languages, and SANSKRIT are Not comprehendable to a common music lover . Someone has to explain the meaning. Atleast for a vocalist, it is easy. The audience hears those words- But for a poor instrumentalist - the common folks cannot figure out saroja dhala netri is being played, unless he has heard the song before, or some one else in the audience points out...
Another opinion that is just mine - For me , the best vocal rendition of 'Endharo Mahanubavulu' is from the film Thyagaiyya, (1946 - Chitoor .V.Nagaiah). What I feel is that is probably exactly the way Thyagaraja swamy himself must have sung the song- with pure Bhakthi Bhava.
To Draw crowds to a more technicaLLY Glorious rendition , where there is Raga Bhavam, and Brilliancy ,We need to work on below.
1) We need more CM Educated Audience. How to get more CM Educated Audience is a bigger topic ,which will fall under how to promote CM.
2)May be , (Like how for me Endaro is etched in memory from the movie) , we need to experiment with the idea of music videos. Music videos which does not have the artists just sitting and putting thalam, but perhaps making the concerts Thematic, (May be now they have to become stage performers - taking a cue from western music). I think we can have a separate thread for this. It will be interesting to see if people come up with ideas for such videos, and which artist they percieve as doing what while rendering which song !!!! That will be a delicious discussion and a trouble making one as well!!! I did see glimpses of Margazhi ragam but that was just a Kutcheri. What I am mentioning is one with more 'KA BOOM'. This will probably take carnatic music back to it's roots - which was music meant for dance and drama. That will surely attract more crowds.
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vasanthakokilam
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- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
That is a good one-liner!
Tell us coolkarni if you have attended any such!
In fact if there is a crowd it is a big distraction for the Rasika who likes to enjoy the music all for him/herself! It is on record that MDR once performed a fantastic full concert for an audience of four. Perhaps you have got it!
VK
It is wrong to say that MDR is appreciated only after his demise. Suddenly folks have not become CM-wiser. There must be a reason for him being neglected during his times! Similarly Somu is appreciated now while he was totally ignored during his times. But he did draw better crowds than MDR (partly because he did sing lot of 'bhava-laden' Tamil songs.
Tell us coolkarni if you have attended any such!
In fact if there is a crowd it is a big distraction for the Rasika who likes to enjoy the music all for him/herself! It is on record that MDR once performed a fantastic full concert for an audience of four. Perhaps you have got it!
VK
It is wrong to say that MDR is appreciated only after his demise. Suddenly folks have not become CM-wiser. There must be a reason for him being neglected during his times! Similarly Somu is appreciated now while he was totally ignored during his times. But he did draw better crowds than MDR
(partly because he did sing lot of 'bhava-laden' Tamil songs.-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
>VK, It is wrong to say that MDR is appreciated only after his demise.
CML, the above statement may or may not be true but that was not my point. What I am saying is, the reason, during his life time, MDR was appreciated mostly by the 'knowledgeable' and not the 'commoners' ( sorry to use these terms which may mean different things to different people ) is not because MDR was analytical/technical/kanakku etc. because he was not, he was all about bhava and aesthetics. As you said, we can make some guesses about why he did not draw crowds. My guess is, as I wrote above, he is not 'hooksy', meaning 'not immediately attractive to the casual listener'. One has to persist with his music ( voice/style of singing etc. ) a bit to get to the depth he represented. Again not analytical depth but aesthetic depth.
CML, the above statement may or may not be true but that was not my point. What I am saying is, the reason, during his life time, MDR was appreciated mostly by the 'knowledgeable' and not the 'commoners' ( sorry to use these terms which may mean different things to different people ) is not because MDR was analytical/technical/kanakku etc. because he was not, he was all about bhava and aesthetics. As you said, we can make some guesses about why he did not draw crowds. My guess is, as I wrote above, he is not 'hooksy', meaning 'not immediately attractive to the casual listener'. One has to persist with his music ( voice/style of singing etc. ) a bit to get to the depth he represented. Again not analytical depth but aesthetic depth.
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gn.sn42
- Posts: 396
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:56
All this may be true, but the OP's question was "Why does a great violinist attract a miserable 5-30 people in the audience?"vasanthakokilam wrote:we can make some guesses about why he did not draw crowds. My guess is, as I wrote above, he is not 'hooksy', meaning 'not immediately attractive to the casual listener'. One has to persist with his music ( voice/style of singing etc. ) a bit to get to the depth he represented.
If the idea is that "the elite" are superior to "the philistines" and can appreciate such quality, why don't the elite attend these concerts?
Bashing the "commoners" is a red herring. By most standards, a crowd of 500 for a superb classical violinist is a decent turnout, while any popular musician will expect a few thousand to show up. So why don't 500 elites show up regularly for good quality concerts, at least in Chennai? The philistines do attend concerts they enjoy in large numbers.
Last edited by gn.sn42 on 10 Jul 2009, 03:58, edited 1 time in total.
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munirao2001
- Posts: 1334
- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
Nike.H.,
On your post/reply no.77,
1) I am very much aware that , the task is simple. I am not expecting all the individuals/organizations appreciate the idea or believe it's efficacy. Ultimately, the real driving factor is one's own ego's satisfaction/delight. The very idea of broad basing the members of the committee-Artists-musicologist-crtic-organizers-sponsors-media-govt-rasikas, is to act as good filters to remove the ego centric leadership or lack of leadership.
But, if the idea is thread bare discussed in a proper forum, with active participation of all the stake holders in serving the cause of CM and deeply committed in taking CM, to further glory, if the idea is accepted and successfully implemented in all the importanct centres, the idea will lead to results.
2) The great success of Western Music, all over the Globe, is the proof of success of application of Marketing and Sales techniques and tools. In the Indian context, the success in the event management of film music concerts and to lesser extent-HM, has the ingredient of the techniques and tools, over CM. If the CM has to be successful as music for the masses, high profile of celebration of success is a MUST. The masses will always identify with successful and high profile. The nos of rasikas flocking to celebrity concerts, most of the times paying, confirms my observation/comment/suggestion.
On your post/reply no.77,
1) I am very much aware that , the task is simple. I am not expecting all the individuals/organizations appreciate the idea or believe it's efficacy. Ultimately, the real driving factor is one's own ego's satisfaction/delight. The very idea of broad basing the members of the committee-Artists-musicologist-crtic-organizers-sponsors-media-govt-rasikas, is to act as good filters to remove the ego centric leadership or lack of leadership.
But, if the idea is thread bare discussed in a proper forum, with active participation of all the stake holders in serving the cause of CM and deeply committed in taking CM, to further glory, if the idea is accepted and successfully implemented in all the importanct centres, the idea will lead to results.
2) The great success of Western Music, all over the Globe, is the proof of success of application of Marketing and Sales techniques and tools. In the Indian context, the success in the event management of film music concerts and to lesser extent-HM, has the ingredient of the techniques and tools, over CM. If the CM has to be successful as music for the masses, high profile of celebration of success is a MUST. The masses will always identify with successful and high profile. The nos of rasikas flocking to celebrity concerts, most of the times paying, confirms my observation/comment/suggestion.
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munirao2001
- Posts: 1334
- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Good marketing folks know the golden rule: "Marketer makes the first acquaintance, the product makes the life long acquaintance'. So marketing in that limited sense of 'getting the word out' is an honorable profession.I remain cynically convinced that sales and marketing techniques have never done the world any good at all.
It becomes a major nuisance and annoyance is when something gets 'pushed' on your face.
Promotion and arts do not seem to go together. We need to change the focus and call it 'Introduction' in keeping with the above golden rule. I can imagine someone doing that tastefully with artists, whether they arrange for them to appear on TV or Radio, interviews, magazine articles or whatever. And then let the art take over in 'selling' the artists.
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munirao2001
- Posts: 1334
- Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35
Reading the posts on the ability of attracting bigger participation of rasikas-MDR and KJY, as a case for discussion- I wish to state that the musician with immense scholarship, ideas, ideals and uncompromising in their performances, offer music which appeals to the intellect/chitta. The music is demanding on the rasikas. The rasikas, with rapt/total attention, memorize the experience/immense pleasure attainted in such great music and derive the advantage of recall experiences of that orginnal experience. As the music makes demand on music appreciation, intellect, descipline and total attention, only limited rasikas are equip themselves. Naturally, they can not be crowd pullers or attract large audience/rasikas. It is essentially, quality of music with pandita ranjakatvam. But, if they are able to succeed to become crowd pullers or attract large audience/rasikas, their joy is boundless!
The artists who measure their success by reaching out to larger audience, fine tune their performance, compromise, contemporise, offer music on demand. Not demanding, music. Their music quality is either of pandita- pamara ranjakatvam or pamara ranjakatvam only.
I will post on my observations of the music of MDR and KJY, later, separately.
munirao2001
The artists who measure their success by reaching out to larger audience, fine tune their performance, compromise, contemporise, offer music on demand. Not demanding, music. Their music quality is either of pandita- pamara ranjakatvam or pamara ranjakatvam only.
I will post on my observations of the music of MDR and KJY, later, separately.
munirao2001
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ragam-talam
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
Western classical music is appreciated by a discerning, small population. So why should it be any different in CM?
Classical music and popular music are at two ends of the rasika spectrum.
People will pay $4000 and attend a Michael Jakson concert, while they will think twice (maybe even more no of times!) before shelling out even $10 for an SRJ concert.
This is reality and I don't expect it to change any time soon, if ever.
Classical music and popular music are at two ends of the rasika spectrum.
People will pay $4000 and attend a Michael Jakson concert, while they will think twice (maybe even more no of times!) before shelling out even $10 for an SRJ concert.
This is reality and I don't expect it to change any time soon, if ever.
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lifeisasong
- Posts: 53
- Joined: 19 Apr 2008, 23:36
I don't know-here in London western classical does manage to draw quite large crowds. And people of many different ethnicities and backgrounds are learning and performing it.ragam-talam wrote:Western classical music is appreciated by a discerning, small population. So why should it be any different in CM?
The acoustics definitely play a part. Recently attended some CM concerts in London where the mikes were blaring, the pumping volume more suitable to a rock concert. There were some people there who were listening to CM for the first time, or didn't have much exposure to it (Indian and non-Indian) but I suspect some of them were trying to recover from their headaches instead of concentrating on the music.