Fleeting Shruti-Bhedam Quiz #3

[uday_shankar]

This time while recording, I played the shruti to myself out of a pair of headphones while I recorded the flute bare with a external mike. Later on I mixed two different shrutis for the two clips. Feel much better about playing with shruti, unlike the last couple times.

Here's the "original" rAga
http://www.sendspace.com/file/zwmj87

Here's the "fake" rAga
http://www.sendspace.com/file/qa95vi

Instructions:
1. Listen to the clips in any order.
2. Each clip is preceded by 45 secs to 1 minute of just the tampura. Meditate on the tampura sound and perhaps articulate the Sa-Pa-Sa to yourself during this time. If necessary, play the first 45 seconds of each clip again and again to soak in the shruti awareness.

Questions for self-examination:
1. Did you recognize the rAga in each case ?
2. Did you notice anything funny about the "original" at any time ?
3. Did you notice anything funny about the "fake" ?
4. Is there a connection between the clips ?
Hint for question #4
The flute portion of the "fake" is a subset of the original. Can you guess approximately the time window of the fake within the original (not with pitch graphs please ) ?

USUAL DISCLAIMER:
Please treat these games lightly.

[bilahari]

1. Yes (especially the fake )
2. Not really
3. No
4. ~ 1.55-2.10 ?

[uday_shankar]

Aah! On the path towards "Self" realization ?!

[bilahari]

Uday,

[arunk]

1. Yes
2. Yes - sort of. I could be wrong here and being led on a wild goose chase on a trick question , but the stamp was very obvious in most places except I thought in descent patterns (reaching mandra pa?) felt a bit "different" - cannot explain more. It is probably just me overanalyzing
3. Yes - started well but at the tail end (1:27ish) it felt odd for a bit and started resembling the original raga. This is specifically w.r.t the first couple of swaras of that pattern. Again, I could be wrong.
4. I shouldnt have seen bilahari's answer but I think I probably would have arrived at the same pattern

All in all excellent demo and quiz !

Arun

[uday_shankar]

but at the tail end (1:27ish) it felt odd

Hmmm...that's a bhashanga svara (not frequently used) which is a cute parallel to the original raga's bhashanga svara.

[arunk]

I get what you mean but i think I don't mean that. Unless I am deciphering incorrectly I think how it was "ascended to" felt odd to my ears - i.e. immediately original raga crept back up in my mind when I first heard it (and even now I can still see it). I had none of that feeling in the earlier parts as well as later parts.

Arun

[ramakriya]

Uday, it was a very nice one!

Questions for self-examination:
1. Did you recognize the rAga in each case ?

First one hopefully, second one for sure.

2. Did you notice anything funny about the "original" at any time ?

Nothing so much the first time, but the second time I heard it (after listening to fake), when I came to the fake segment in the original, ears latched on to the fake, and resisted getting back to the original, until towards the end when I returned to sensing original.

3. Did you notice anything funny about the "fake" ?

Nothing - May be I should listen to it a few more times to see if there indeed is anything funny! The bhAshanga swara, I consider an integral part of the 'fake' rAga.

4. Is there a connection between the clips ?
I guess this has been answered already.

-Ramakriya

[uday_shankar]

Nothing so much the first time, but the second time I heard it (after listening to fake), when I came to the fake segment in the original, ears latched on to the fake, and resisted getting back to the original, until towards the end when I returned to sensing original.

Excellent. This is an ideal response. The intent of the "fake" segment is for it to be as seamlessly integrated into the original as possible and unless you're alert it should pass along pleasantly with only a small thematic variation. Then, after the experience of the Arundhati nyaya of being pointed out, it should stand out as the different theme that it is (while playing this segment, I was mentally conjuring up the rAga svaroopa of the fake and it's only connection to the original were the sounds of the notes themselves but not the actual notes!).

vasanthakolilam,
This is a little wink of a shruti bhedam .

[uday_shankar]

i.e. immediately original raga crept back up in my mind

I would like to know if this is the same experience after a completely fresh listen after a few days with a conscious effort to "forget" the original.

[arunk]

I will certainly try but the association of the whole piece itself with the original piece, I have a sense would be impossibly to break completely !

I listened to just the fake after a 1-1.5 hour break. And as I listened I wasn't paying attention to the time elapsed (so I couldn't know what was next). At the end I did think "it sounded odd there" for a couple seconds. Then the brain once again made the association "ah! similar to that original raga" .

In other words this time there was a slight gap before the association with the original raga. The first time it was almost instantaneous. In fact, I remember thinking that this is why you didn't feature a longer piece in the fake in you perhaps thought that "the other parts were too original to be fake".

(with all this original, fake, original fake. Boy! Talk about speaking in riddles! )

I think all this probably means that I am not familiar with this particular phrase (i.e. swara combo used) with the bashanga swara here (or I am still sensing it wrong). I do know of the one I think is quoted commonly i.e. I can relate to that - if I am not mi staked, that is not featured here.

So if this was actually played in the raga itself (i.e. fake as the original), I may have just thought "that sounded different" but wouldn't have associated with the original above. This is a guess but this would be the answer to your question. That "it sounded different" would again reflect by unfamiliarity.

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

I got the two ragas fine ( will have to see if I got the original one correctly but I am pretty sure )

>unless you're alert it should pass along pleasantly with only a small thematic variation.

For me, Iit passed through pleasantly in a couple of listens until I read all these response. Then I thought I sensed something different in the fake section of the original but not much though.

Excellent demo, Uday. This is getting better with every demo.

[vainika]

Uday great demo, but I wonder why you choose to privilege one rAga by terming it the original, and dismiss the other as a fake

[arunk]

In that recent concert of kalpagam mami uploaded by vainika, at time index 00:24:25, I think she plays a phrase very similar to this one. I think I have familiarized myself with it now

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

Since enough time has elapsed, can the original/fake raga be discussed? I got it clearly as Yamuna Kalyani/Bilahari ( that self-realization comment by Udai was reinforcing! ). Am I right?

You needed to shift the sruthi down by 4 notches. Going the reverse way, the shift is equivalent to Mohana-Shankarabharanam becoming Suddha Saveri (?)( S R2 M1 P D2 S)-Kalyani, right? I am confused if it is indeed suddha saveri swaras for the arohanam now. But we will use that as a placeholder for now.

What is the Arohanam/Avarohanam of Yamuna Kalyani that makes it adaptable to a structure of Suddha Saveri-Kalyani. I know yamuna kalyni uses M1 but when I looked around for a nominal Aro/Ava of YK, it is not close to a Suddha Saveri-Kalyani. Or it just happened that the portion you chose for the fake matches the corresponding prayogas for Bilahari but if the fake contained the whole thing, it would not have sounded like Bilahari all the way.

There was a mention of bhashanga swaras. Are you referring to N2 of Bilahari and M1 of YK?

Quite surreal that both ragas came out in tact so beautifully. Your rendering of the original was quite soothing.

This is a little wink of a shruti bhedam

You mean, some people would have gotten the fact that you switched to Bilahari during that fake-extract portion while listening to the original ( with out an explicit switch in tonic? )
I did not get that switch in raga, I was fully drawn into the original raga.

That is what is still not clear to me. Upon repeated listening, I see you try to provide a kArvai on the purported sa of Bilahari but to me it sounded like you are staying on a single note of YK.
So I am still on that question from before: If a kArvai can sometimes cause a sruthi bedam impression, how does the audience NOT get that impression during non-sa, non-pa kArvai that happens a lot of times in a concert?

[uday_shankar]

vk,

Yes .

1. The "original" was yamuna kalyani.
2. The "fake" was bilahari.
3. The segment is approx. 1:50...2.16.

Bringing suddha saveri/sankarabharanam into this discussion may confuse many things may not be relevant. Please read the discussion of Yamuna kalyani carefully - you cannot do some of these shruti bhedams without taking subtle but permissible liberties with arohana/avarohana structure which may be possible in one murchana but not another.

On yamuna kalyani
==============
I don't know much about this rAga and I'm not sure of the ArOhana/AvarOhana or that there's even a strict arohana/avarohana. I've just heard enough of it to feel comfortable playing snatches of it and sneaking in a small bilahari-like refrain within it. Nominally, I think the arohana/avarohana is identical to kalyani with a bhashanga M1 thrown in. In actual usage (from what I've heard), however, things are different from the strict ArOhana/avarOhana. If we're stuck with a strict arohana/avarohana the fleeting bilahari shift would not have been possible. So what are the actual usage aspects which permit a bilahari shift:

1. Instead of SRG we very often play NRG, almost as if it were a nishadantya raga, along the lines of yaman. This NRG usage is one factor which permits the bilahari shift (corresponding to GPD in bilahari). But wait, there is another, subtle, usage liberty which needs to be snuck in.

2. The second usage aspect is more subtle and needs to be artistically executed or will lead to a loss of identity of yamuna kalyani. This is in regards to dropping the madhyama in the arohana. Normally, sangatis progress per arohana as G M2 P, etc.. but when executed carefully and artistically (I hope ), we can do N R G P, , , P M G R. This usage is absolutely essential to sneak in bilahari because that NRGP in YK corresponds to GPDS in B (if you insist on NRGMP in YK that would translate to GPDNS in the shifted tonic which is strictly prohibited in bilahari). Go back and listen to the clip and notice how in the initial stage of the rAga I have played NRGMP and then changed to NRGP . All this has to be understood aurally and not intellectually.

[vainika]

2. The second usage aspect is more subtle and needs to be artistically executed or will lead to a loss of identity of yamuna kalyani. This is in regards to dropping the madhyama in the arohana. Normally, sangatis progress per arohana as G M2 P, etc.. but when executed carefully and artistically (I hope ), we can do N R G P, , , P M G R. This usage is absolutely essential to sneak in bilahari because that NRGP in YK corresponds to GPDS in B (if you insist on NRGMP in YK that would translate to GPDNS in the shifted tonic which is strictly prohibited in bilahari). Go back and listen to the clip and notice how in the initial stage of the rAga I have played NRGMP and then changed to NRGP . All this has to be understood aurally and not intellectually.

Good point Uday.

Since I'm a probably little more conservative than you - in this respect at least - in yk I would probably not execute N R G P landing on P, but just do g P,mG or g dpP, mG.

I would also exploit two relatively unusual facets of bilahari PdN; pD,P (see anupallavi of hATakEshwara) and the bilahari snrs-snndD which have yk equivalents in RgM;-rG,R and pmdp-pmmgG respectively...

Uday, this is becoming addictive... I want to try it out too.

[ramakriya]

Uday, this is becoming addictive... I want to try it out too.

Vainika, same case here waiting for your quizzes too!