Keeping Tala in Violin

[suhasm]

I have been learning violin from the past 2 years. I have not yet been taught by my violin teacher to keep tala. I've seen flautists keeping tala by some system of tapping their thighs. This lack of knowledge of tala is greatly affecting my violin playing. I find it hard to know when to pick up the next part of the song as i dont know where the tala is. For songs which i know quite well , this tala has become sort of internalized. What i mean is that , i internally know when a tala ends and when the next one begins without having to keep conscious track of the tala. Also , I have seen several violinists (including my guru) who never seem to indicate tala in any physical movements , but still manage to get it right everytime.

My violin guru says that keeping track of tala in violin is only taught at a later stage. Can anyone guide me in this aspect?

[Nick H]

I can think of one member who is likely to have something to say about teaching methods --- and very well qualified he is too.

Which I am not. At all.

My personal shot-in-the-dark feelings, though, are twofold...

Tala and its theory are is half of the prime building blocks of music; I cannot imagine it not being taught, from the start, by any vocal or instrumental teacher.

On the other hand, if your teacher feels that you should develop an internal sense of timing without having to make any physical show of it, then that seems very reasonable and laudable.

It will be interesting to know what others say.

[bilahari]

Suhasm, I'm in the same situation as you. My guru never taught me to put tala using my feet at the outset but suddenly as we launched into krithis told me to keep beat with my feet. He told me not to worry about laghu and drutham initially but just maintain the beat. Somehow it has been very challenging for me to remember to keep my foot tapping! I just can't seem to make it a subconscious habit. To help me along, I've recently bought a talameter and am starting from scratch from the first, simplest varnams and trying to keep beat along with the talameter to train myself. The going has certainly been tough! But the talameter is proving very helpful in providing a steady beat reference. One thing I have found to make plenty of difference in putting tala internally/ with feet is knowing the composition inside-out. I have not memorised most of the compositions I've learned, and any time I play a composition looking at my notes, my tala putting goes awry (since my concentration is elsewhere on reading the notation correctly). However, with a few pet compositions that I know by heart like vAtApi and viribhOni, I can focus better on and my adherence to tala are much better.

[suhasm]

@bilahari ,

Since we are in the same boat , i also have one more question :

How do you manage to learn the sahitya for various krithis/ varanams ( for proper bowing)?

I have always found that extremely tough. It is pretty simple for well known krithis like vatapi or raguvamsha since i already know the sahitya.
However , i am unmotivated to learn the sahitya of virtually unknown krithis in obscure ragas (like saravana bhava in pashupatipriya).
I have virtually no clue about the sahitya of the varnams (their long elongated ookaras and akaras are too tough in sing in the mind). I have literally memorized the notes and bowing for entire varnams.

I have found that is much easier and also sounds much more melodious if i play the song singing the sahitya in my mind rather than the swaras...
I can do this (ie. singing sahitya in mind) when i'm playing the simpler sangathis at a slow speed. However , everything breaks down when i'm playing the more faster and difficult sangathis and my mind reverts to the swaras. This makes the song sound cut-cut.

So what are your suggestions in this matter?

[bilahari]

Suhasm, there too I have a problem. Now that I no longer have a teacher and have to learn by myself, I have the advantage of learning krithis I know very, very well (i.e. I have internalised the musical and lyrical frame of the composition well), and this really helps me in setting aside the swaras and playing according to the words. When my guru was teaching me songs I really didn't know that well, like gOvardhana giridhara or dAsana mADiko, I really never got the grip of the compositions until/unless I got a good grip over the sahitya (by listening to vocal renditions countless times). The best way to mimic the vocal style is not only listening to clear vocal renditions (KVN, MSS for me), but to listen to violin renditions which pay close attention to sahitya (TNK and LGJ are particularly noteworthy, though I find LGJ more difficult to follow because his brighas are often difficult for me to decipher). Listening to good violin renditions gives me ideas on how to best articulate the vocal form on the violin, i.e. where the bowing is more forceful, where the bow reverses, etc. My teacher told me very frequently that the best way to improve "gayaki" techniques on the violin is to accompany recordings of vocalists. Even though I'm an amateur, he said the value of picking up even one or two ideas and sangathis from accompanying vocalists can be over the long run extremely beneficial. For the violin, there is really no substitute for accompaniment.

These days, as I try to replicate on my violin one or two nice but tough phrases I heard in a concert, I'm becoming increasingly aware that gaining mastery over an instrument is much like gaining mastery over a foreign language. For a long time when I was learning French (I started when I was 13) as a third language, I had the tendency to translate/transliterate my thoughts from English/Tamil to French, and compositions used to be really quite bad (wrong grammar, bad syntax--you name the mistake, I committed it). As time went on, however, I consciously undertook an effort to start thinking IN French and only composing sentences as I thought them in French. My sentences were initially simple three or four word sentences, the ideas expressed really simplistic and primitive, but my grammar and syntax were correct. Over time, I started to speak and write French in an increasingly complex manner, introducing even local idioms, etc.

With violin (or any instrument), it seems to be much the same thing. Right from the outset, we should (in my opinion) try to minimise converting swaras to musical phrases, thinking in terms of swaras rather than sahitya, trying to think of swaras' positions on the fingerboard and thinking about the instrument as if it were a foreign, external construct, and even eventually stop translating "vocalistic" intentions, thoughts, and conceptions to instrumental play (when I see expert violinists respond with such amazing alacrity, I really cannot but conclude that their brain is actually directly circuiting effectors to their fingers such that there is no intermediate between their musical conceptions and their physical manifestation via the instrument). I'm not expressing myself clearly here, but my point is essentially that mastering an instrument requires us to start thinking in TERMS of that instrument to the extent that it even becomes an organic component of our own selves. And that kind of mastery takes a hell of a lot of focus, dedication, and sheer hard work! Not to mention the greatest challenge for those of us who've started on this process late and have come to these realisations belatedly--unlearning and relearning.

This is a thread that better captures what I've been going around in circles trying to say:
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... swara.html

[srikant1987]

Like bilahari says, there are basically two parts to keepint talam:

(a) each "beat" being maintained of uniform duration: like the 8 beats of an adi talam being evenly spaced,

(b) knowing the "count" of the beat you are in: to know whether at a particular moment the third beat of the cycle is beginning or the seventh

For the cApu tALas (khaNDa, rUpaka and miSra) , it's mostly (a). But for others, it's (b) and (a).

I think vocalists need to take particular care about (a), as that's something one can go wrong in even with both hands free.
(a) needs to be internalised, there's no alternative whatsoever.

For (b), vocalists have their hands, but instrumentalists need to consciously keep track of that in addition to everything else. Basically I think it's practice. When you play your first song, say Shri gananatha, you'll have to do some thinking as to where ma is, where pa is, and stuff. Eventually these just happen automatically. Like this, (b) too should happen with rigorous practice.

[suhasm]

I think (a) has already been internalized by me. I only need to learn how to keep count of the tala (b).

So should i start from sarale varase again and start keeping tala until it is internalized ?
Or should i develop some technique to keep tala by tapping my foot ?

[T.T.SRINIVASAN]

Tala and sruti are two basics of carnatic music. If an artist is a good artist then he must be good in tala and sruti. It should be taught from the first day when one start with sarale varse.For a violinist all beats are shown in his left leg and counting and reverse in right leg. For a student to be good in tala he must be taught to play sarale varse from speed 1 to 3 and come back to speed 1. one has to check then whether he has landed in the firsr speed same as when he started playing.This should be repeated for all sarale varse, janti, alankara etc. Even though this is a long process and takes more time it helps in the long run. For sahithya bowing one should study the script. For one beat , if there are four swaras,then sahitya ned not be there for each swara. If sahitya is a single letter for all the four swaras, then we should put single bow covering all the four swaras. If there are two sahitya letters for four swaras, say for three swaras one sahitya letter and for the fourth swara another sahitya letter then put one bow covering three swaras and another bow for fourth swara.One should start singing sahitya and and as per sahitya bow is to be used.Initially it may be tough, we get used it as we advance.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Dear TT Srinivasan sir ( are you the performing violinist TTSrinivasan). thanks that was valuable. But as you say starting from saralee varisai makes a lot of sense.

[srikant1987]

@ suhasm

What is necessary is that you should keep track of it consciously: as you do so, perhaps your foot might automatically tap in some way. Another option is to tap your feet in a predetermined manner for the particular talam. Here again you are in essence doing the same thing.

It will be good to have someone with you to put talam initially to just be able to verify. But try to not look at them: if it's becoming too tempting, ask them to not put it in a showing manner except when you want to check back.
---
Starting with ata tala varnams should be good for this, I think.

Kritis include a bit of (a), and for adi and capu talams, the intuitive feel is too strong. Alankarams again, have set meter and use one swara for beat.

[suhasm]

I have tried tapping my foot for each beat and its possible with a reasonable amount of practice. But i find it difficult to differentiate different parts of the tala thorugh tapping. I have tried tapping my right thigh for the first 4 beats of adi tala and left thigh for the next 4 beats.
But it becomes too complex to keep track of when to switch the tapping from one thigh to the other.

Do you suggest that i use a metronome or something similar? Does it really help?

[vasanthakokilam]

msakella, our teacher member extraordinairre, has said that you should never practise without a metronome.

[ganesh_mourthy]

yes Metronome really helps to keep the tala. but tala metre is also good. You slowly get to internalize the pattern for each tala.

[suhasm]

btw , whats the difference between a metronome and a tala meter?

are they the same or does the talameter have some extra stuff?

[Nick H]

I think talameter counts as metronome, the salient point being that it is an external, unforgiving rhythm to pitch (ha! no pun intended!) oneself against.

One of my problems is that I have a personal speed, with which I feel comfortable, putting tala, saying konakol, etc. This may be fine for memorizing, but it is not good practice for accompaniment, where, of course, we do not determine the tempo, but must adjust. A metronome/talameter can be a good master at this practice.

[svkashyap]

suhasm and bilahari, I am also in the same league as you two. About a few months back i bought a talameter from Radel http://www.radelindia.com/User_Products ... px?catid=3.

Now i can comfortably play some kritis with the talameter. And ofcourse, only those kritis that I know and dont need notation.

However, I find playing varnas is very difficult with the talameter. Generally, I observed that my speed gradually increases and when a human is keeping tala there might be a slight involuntary adjustment. With talameter, its too strict as Nick mentioned.

I did try to set the talameter to some concert recordings and found that the speed generally increased towards the ending of a kriti, especially in 2nd speed kalpana swaras. My experiment is still in primitive stage and there might be some human errors that I am committing.

But I still wonder whether such a strict timeline as maintained by talameter is necessary.

[srikant1987]

I have tried tapping my right thigh for the first 4 beats of adi tala and left thigh for the next 4 beats.

Actually even when singing, for example, in the ata tala, you need to keep track of whether you are in the first laghu or the second!

Putting tala, even with your hands, isn't reflex action: your brain instructs them to move.

However, singing is itself more of a reflex action than playing most musical instruments, and so you're left with more of your thinking brain for keeping track of tala.
---
It's mostly violinists who get so perplexed with this issue. I feel this must be because they need to follow and reply to other instrumentalists -- and even singers.

[vasanthakokilam]

>However, singing is itself more of a reflex action than playing most musical instruments, and so you're left with more of your thinking brain for keeping track of tala.

Good point. I am not sure if 'reflex action' is the right characterization, but I know what you mean. There is that direct connection in singing especially while singing from memory-recall ( repeat what you already know ). And tala keeping is much simpler whether it is straight forward stuff or some crazy eduppu. It all falls naturally.

Instrumentalists have it tough. It is not just violin but flutists have to work on it too. In addition to brain activity invovled, our body is naturally conditioned to work together. Like the foot and the hands are connected to work together autonomously ( without conscious thinking ). So if your fingers do some fast action to execute at a different kAlam, the foot also tends to follow that motion. It requires some brain activity to disassociate them. But I think after some training, conscious brain activity is not needed to keep the foot going at a steady rhythm. ( I have not achieved that )

[suhasm]

@ vasanthakokilam

That was exactly the point that i also have in mind.
I can keep tala somewhat properly through my feet while playing in a single speed.
However , when the speed changes in a krithi , my legs also are urged to speed up or slow down and thus upset the tala. I guess this can be controlled by hard practice.

[srikant1987]

If it's a simple doubling or halving of speed, you should be able to see the underlying normal rhythm, and should keep that in mind. Practising it by singing first will give you the will power to continue putting talam the normal way, and as you sing the faster phrases putting the original slower talam, you can understand the underlying slower rhythm in the faster phrase (or vice versa).

[musicloverrr]

I have a doubt. Hope someone here would be able to explain it to me.

Why do violinists or instrumentalists in general tap the foot just for the first beat in dhrutham/anudhrutham while putting talam? How exactly does it help in maintaining tempo/rhythm? I know few schools bend their toe for finger counts and turning the palm. But I was never asked to bend for counting. Just tap for 1, 5 and 7th beat for adi talam for example. I'm able to maintain the tempo while playing violin without putting talam. But my guru always insists me to try it. But putting talam just for the first beat in dhrutham/anudhrutham seems really challenging, actually not a problem if u have to do sing/play slowly because can be easily done if u concentrate on it. It just doesn't seem to be natural. Its easier to maintain equal beat. Say for adi talam it has 8 counts why can't we put for all of it just like we do for singing? Am I supposed to count on head. Interestingly, I noticed my guru in his concert performances always taps his foot for all the eight counts.

[anandasangeetham]

most teachers insist that vocal learning is mandatory while learning any instrument. I presume that this is to condition the mind in getting the lessons perfected and then attempting in the instrument. by this method since the mind is already conditioned you will make very little mistakes and these can be corrected by the teacher in the next class. I have also seen many vocalists who do not visibly keep the tala. eg. Sri BMK, Smt MS in later years.... in one video of Sri Somu singing the atana kriti rama namamu.... he remembers his guru and tries to sing like him (enjoying himself and not visibly keeping the tala) and comes back to the tala with forceful slap on his own shoulder...more of internalising.....forum member pls correct me if I am wrong...Percussion artists too vocalise the sollus by keeping the talam memorise and THEN attempt the same in the instrument (while practicing ) so that the sequence is well set in the mind with the tala intact so that the reproduction throught the instrument is easier...


this is also the reason why most teachers initially only teach the swaras without actually asking the student to concentrate on the tala. once the basic swaras are memorised with the same kalapramana as the taught by the teacher then the student is asked to MATCH his mind with the physical beats.....I interacted with some teachers and the reason they give is ...try reversing..that is first get the tala right and then try to match the singing / playing...it will be next to impossible to get it right.....so the bottomline is to get the music internalised...then everything will follow.

[musicloverrr]

Yeah, that makes sense. But I don't have problem as far as the internalizing part goes... my question is if we take instrument why can't we put tala just the way we do when we sing.

[srikant1987]

But I don't have problem as far as the internalizing part goes... my question is if we take instrument why can't we put tala just the way we do when we sing.

Because we don't have our hands free?

It is instinctive to "tap" one or both feet for every single beat. However, this won't allow differentiating third beat from the seventh. We should mark different beats differently.

Indeed, even when singing putting the Adi tALam, we might by mistake miss one of the two dhrutams in a cycle, or add a third dhrutam! With the two-laghu, two-dhruta aTa or the three-laghu dhruva, mistakes like this become even likelier.

[musicloverrr]

Because we don't have our hands free?

Haha. duh...I meant why can't we just tap for all the eight counts maintaining an 'even' beat.

We should mark different beats differently.

So it is for the purpose to know where you are in the cycle eh? But it gets tough as the speed increases. I suppose it requires lot of concentration. You still have to mentally remember the count and as you said if the number of laghus is more than one(dhruva and ata tala) it will obviously be difficult. I was not taught to mark different beats differently. I tap them in the same manner.

[msakella]

Everybody knows that the brain is the central point to control each and every limb of the body. Unless the brain is trained properly in any aspect the brain, in turn, cannot direct any limb to act upon and ultimately the limb, in turn, cannot act accordingly to the requirement. That is why learning vocal is mandatory even for the instrumentalists. While learning vocal the brain, at the first instance, will be initiated to deal with Shruti and Laya. In general, in the traditional method of teaching, all the music-teachers are used to start with Saralee-svaras in Adi-tala. If we simply analyse this we can understand that the poor aspirant is compelled to expose himself to four implications, 1.Rhythm 2.Angas of the Tala 3.Solfa-syllable of the note 4. Sound of the note. Just to minimise this number of implications to two Jati-alankaras have been brought into the modern system of teaching. Right from the first day of the music-lesson, if the aspirant is properly initiated to render these Jati-alankaras and the remaining of 28 Special-Laya-exercises on his own along with Metronome the sense of rhythm will certainly be increased instilling confidence into the aspirant. Thus, the aspirant should be initiated to learn up to 6 Gitas and, then only, the aspirant should be initiated to start Violin-playing. Even, in initiating the aspirant to learn Violin-playing, there are umpteen easy methods basing upon different levels of the apirants. Unless the aspirant gets reasonable control over Chaturashra and Trisra-gatis there will not be any use in learning Violin. All these things are possible to get reasonable acquaintance if the aspirant starts learning before 12 years of age.

Take around 4 inches of elastic tape of 1 inch width. Meet both ends of the tape and stitch it. Try to get a small-bell tied to the neck of the calf. Stitch it to the elastic-round-tape. Tell the aspirant to insert his left foot into that elastic-round-tape. Ask him to render beats with his left foot @ 4-units per each second which is 120 bpm of the Metronome. Right from the first day of the music-lesson if the aspirant is properly initiated to do things of rhythm in a disciplined manner he will certainly gets the needed rhythmical sense to get through the music field. If not, at one point or other, he remains stranded. amsharma

[Ramasubramanian M.K]

What a wonderful explanation.Thanks for enlightening the rasikas. I had always heard Violinists like Laludi Sir say that every instrumentalist should learn vocal music first before embarking upon the instrument. Your piece has given the theoretical construct behind the well-worn statement(the main argument against learning vocal music or lyrics was that the instrument cannot distinguish the lyrics anyway--TNR always used to dismiss the notion of lyrics importance with a flippant remark).

Palghat Mani Iyer always quoted Swami Sivananda saying that Layam is embedded in God--the Ultimate Master of time. While acknowledging artistes with superior layam , he used to say that one should have Brahma Layam--an exalted state of Layam(indirectly he felt that he --- PMI had that divine grace that set him apart from other Mridangists of his time.
Thanks for the wonderful post.

[vasanthakokilam]

Akellaji: That is great little gadget for learning to keep thalam with the foot. Quite creative. . I have a little application for the iPhone where you can tap it at regular intervals and it will tell you the BPM but I still can not use it with my foot Thanks.

[msakella]

Dear brother-members, Ramasubramanian M.K & vasanthakokilam, Thank you for your kind appreciation.

Always I have a very sad feeling that why all the so called elders in our music do not feel the responsibility of truly bringing up our kids in a disciplined manner like our Great GNB? Even though I have seen him in person for only two times I have heard many things of him showing his greatness in so many ways. I am truly inspired of him and I personally feel him as the only all time great.

Though not all, had many of our stalwarts properly thought of the high importance of the rhythm, formulated relevant rhythmical exercises, made all of them compulsory and initiated all the aspirants right from the first day of the music-lesson our music-field would have been in an entirely exalted position. Only after having the rapport with all my violin-students continuously for 40 years, I could realize the high importance of the rhythm in shaping the aspirant and bring out the Jati-alankaras and the relevant 28 Special-laya-exercises. Now, I feel very happy to find even a single music-institution, Swara-bhangima at Secunderabad is truly and truthfully working on the lines of the modern methods in teaching music from which more than 60 students are able to render all these Laya-exercises successfully. You all can find the amazing results by going through the URLs of the video-clippings furnished in the 303rd and other subsequent posts in the sub-thread AMS Easy Methods 2007 CD -Teaching and Learning Methods of the main-thread Music School. amsharma

[Tamizhisai]

I have been a silent reader of this forum. I appreciate Akellaji's contributions. The idea of tying bell in the leg is an age old thing. Even Lalgudi Sir used to tell in his interviews that he was trained in this fashion by Shri Gopala Iyer.

But I disagree with the view on age of initiation for classical music. Akellaji's views should not discourage late bloomers. Age is no bar for learning classical music. I was initiated into classical music only at the age of 18. Several of my classmates come from a rural background with no exposure to classical music. Some of them could actually get admission only in BA music because of very low scores in +2. But we slowly started taking interest, thanks to the excellent faculty. They were very understanding and we could overcome our shortcomings because of their support. By the time we were in final year, we participated in several competitions at all india level and won prizes. One of my classmates who lacked both sruthi and rhythm sense at first, secured first rank with her sheer hard work. Also in our college, students who graduated in science and other arts used to take MA Music. Some of them started learning in their early twenties only and they also had no prior back ground in music. One of them is now a music professor. This is proof enough that age is not a bar to start learning music.

Akellaji has singled out GNB. In olden days I think several artistes like Alathur Bros gave great importance to rhythm. Nadhaswaram and tavil vidhwans are very strong in rhythm and have expertise in intricate tala calculations. They maintain a very low profile and media doesn't hype them.

[msakella]

Instead of belittling the age old habit of tying a bell to keep rhythm to the left foot of the Violinist it would have been very apt if some other alternative is also prescribed in the interest of the aspirants.

Now I am 73 years old. I have been acquainted with music since my 3rd year and I was a Mridangist, Harmonist, Vocalist, Violinist and Musicologist. As I have started learning Violin very late from my 17th year that too in the useless traditional method of learning and also from a Violinist of Instrumental-style but not of Vocal-style I was compelled to gather different finger-techniques of Violin on my own residing in a music-desert of Andhra-pradesh having no music environment at all. Thus, as my entry was very late and difficult as a Violinist I was compelled to make an early exit to avoid any paralytic-stroke as I was used to strenuously practice the MSG’s finger-techniques of Violin-play. Unless I make my exit so early there was every scope of getting a paralytic stroke than music concerts. Apart from others, this is one of the causes to give up my artiste career.

In my regular and close rapport with hundreds of my students as a Violin-teacher in the Govt. Music Colleges for 35 long years I have very regularly made umpteen experiments upon them and, to tell the fact, they all have become my true-gurus in my life than any other so-called Gurus. It is not at all any exaggeration if I tell that for all my developments in the methods of teaching they all are my sole Gurus. While the Almighty is the only ultimate and all others are only part of HIM I, like all others, am also a part of HIM. But, by HIS grace I know many things in respect of teaching than any other music-teacher on the globe and, till now, no other music-teacher had ever produced better and quick results than me. By all this and being in the music-teaching-profession for more than 50 years with a regular and close rapport with my hundreds of students I have my own strong convictions in respect of the problems of teaching and I am not at all ready to agree with any other music-teacher of either vocal or instrumental on the globe unless he/she proves himself/herself better than me in the methods of teaching in making the process time-bound and result-oriented unlike in the past.

I need not discourage late bloomers. Their age will naturally discourage them to proceed further even though they are unaware of it. In general, it is not that easy even to a professional-music-teacher to find in which way the progress of the aspirant will be hampered. More over, in violin-teaching it is still more difficult to find such hindrance. There may be few exceptions but I certainly feel that age has its own bar in learning music or dance.

Having accompanied hundreds of artistes of Vocal or instruments of all levels right from small kids to giants and stalwarts of music for more than 50 years and having come across many A-grade artistes, Top-grade artistes, concert-artistes and professors who are much deficient either in Shruti or Laya or both I found that expertise should never be evaluated either by qualifications or designations or awards or titles.

I feel sorry to tell you that your last paragraph has no relevancy with my version. amsharma

[Tamizhisai]

You have misunderstood my post. I have not belittled the practice of tying a bell on the leg. I also stressed the fact it is an age old practice. Unlike you I will never mock at traditional methods of teaching any subject including music. How did our forefathers impart rhythmic sense to students? They set very high standard and produced several stalwarts, generation after generation. Did they use any metronome those days? My post is only a contrasting view and not an opposing view. I have not commented about your teaching methods. I just mentioned that there are skilled teachers who encourage late bloomers and groom them. I still stick to my view that age is not a bar for learning music.

"I know many things in respect of teaching than any other music-teacher on the globe and, till now, no other music-teacher had ever produced better and quick results"

Your rambling sounds very senile and not to mention it is in a unpleasant taste. There were/are many great and unpretentious gurus in our country. They don’t blow their own trumpet. At any point of time there are gurus who give great emphasis to tala, Alathur Venkatesa Iyer in the recent past generation and T.R.Subramaniam, Chengalpet Renganathan, J.Venkatraman in your generation to name a few. Even though they are not performing artists they are acknowledged as great teachers. As I already mentioned the Tavil and Nadhaswara vidwans fall in this group. The kind of stuff with them is not known to lot of people in this world. It is like the hidden treasure brought to light from Padmanabaswamy temple. These humble people always maintain that we should never think too high of ourselves nor should we look down upon others. Coffee seed has to be roasted, ground and brewed to make a tasteful cup of filter coffee. Any quick result may taste like instant coffee.

“Always I have a very sad feeling that why all the so called elders in our music do not feel the responsibility of truly bringing up our kids in a disciplined manner like our Great GNB?”

I too feel sorry to state that my last paragraph was very much relevant. It was in response to the quoted context. Do you think without strict discipline such level of proficiency in laya is possible to achieve in music?!

[msakella]

When you wrote ‘the idea of tying bell in the leg is an age old THING’, naturally I thought that you are trying only to belittle the idea. How can I take it for appreciation? Taking the advantage of your anonymity now you are modifying it conveniently to ‘age old PRACTICE’. Very nice, indeed.

You may call it traditional or non-traditional or some other thing you like but when there were no proper facilities people were used to walk all the way to Varanasi by foot and, now, people mock at such deed. Of course, you may not mock? Very well, don’t do so but appreciate.

Being a music-teacher, I shall certainly condemn any method of teaching music if it is not properly useful in making the aspirant knowledgeable.

Having worked most of my life as a music-teacher in the Govt. Colleges of Music, Andhra Pradesh, I mostly belong to the institutionalised system of teaching which I, seriously and sincerely, feel the best (far better even the so called Gurukula system). I have almost all the syllabi of Karnataka-music followed by umpteen institutions of all the four South Indian States. But, all these syllabi very clearly prove that none of our fore fathers who worked as teachers either in the Music-colleges or in the Music-departments of several Universities had ever cared to impart any rhythmical exercises to any of their students.

Recently I had been to one of my friend’s house who is a reputed musician and at that time he is surrounded by nearly 15 of his disciples. On enquiry he told me very proudly that they all are his disciples and all are A-grade and concert-singers. I felt very happy of it and gave them a little rhythmical-exercise to render then and there. But, to everybody’s surprise, each and everybody failed to render it successfully. The person remaining on the terrace of a building having 10 floors only can observe the things happening on the terraces of all other lower buildings but not the person remaining on the terrace of the buildings having only 2 or 3 floors. Metronome is meant to maintain disciplined precision in rhythm and always a well-disciplined person only can find any indiscipline but not an undisciplined person.

Elsewhere in some of my posts I have already mentioned that, most unfortunately in our music, there has never been a yardstick either to assess the level of knowledge of a music-teacher or to assess the level of knowledge he/she has been imparting to the aspirant or to assess the level of knowledge the aspirant has been getting in the process of learning. Even though it is not at all difficult to make a yardstick in all these aspects all the music-teachers unanimously oppose to follow it telling different kinds of cock and bull stories. That is the pity of our music-teachers.

You can still stick to your view that age is not a bar for learning music but, if it is needed, I, as a professional-teacher, can very well prove that age has its own bar in learning music.

Even though your anonymity facilitates you to write any thing you want many of my posts in this forum obviously reveal that I am not a person to blow my own trumpet. Had I been such a person I would not have given up my lucrative artiste-life right from the date of retirement unlike any other artiste on the globe and taken up the propagation of the easy methods in teaching as a mission for the rest of my life. If there are really great Gurus you kindly bring them out and make them teach you, the late-bloomers and groom in the traditional method of teaching, upload your videos to ‘youtube’ and furnish the relevant URLs in this thread at the earliest.

I am very much surprised to know that Alathur Venkatesa Iyer, T.R.Subramaniam (my good old friend), Chengalpet Renganathan and J.Venkatraman are not performing artistes but teachers only. This itself indicates your knowledge in this music-field. At this juncture I do not know in which group the Tavil and Nadaswara Vidwans fall.

Even though I don’t have the habit of taking coffee I always have a feeling that anonymous people must always be roasted and ground to keep others peaceful.

While I wrote about feeling the responsibility in bringing up our kids, funnily, you are talking about discipline like a person who started eating chutney but left the idli. amsharma

[appu]

How sad. Another interesting thread going down the toilet......

[Pratyaksham Bala]

Ditto.

[vasanthakokilam]

appu, I agree. Akellaji's idea, whether it is known before or not, is a great idea and let us celebrate that. Hope people put the idea in to practice and get something very useful out of that.

Changing the topic a little bit but still relevant, my colleague's 18 month son dances to a simple metronome. You start the metronome, his attention immediately switches to that, his face lights up and he starts moving his body to the beat. It is fun to see.

After reading Akellaji's idea, I am now thinking that the Indian practice of putting on anklets with bells on babies and children would have the same effect, of synching their movements to sounds and getting them on the rhythm bandwagon early on.

[msakella]

appu & Pratyaksham Bala: Sorry dear, many a time I am being pushed into this toilet by the ‘anonymites’. Of course, in one way, they are also afraid that we may gradually forget about the outlet, toilet. As this outlet has already been built in our body itself, they want to remind us about it and make us not to forget it. Thus, accordingly, in one way, they are also needed to the society just like toilets and pigs of our society. Just like the discipline and indiscipline are inter-dependants and none among them could survive without the other these ‘anonymites’ are also needed for our recreation and betterment. Without criticism everything will become stagnated without development. So, let us not feel bad of it negatively but positively enjoy this hot among the sweet.

vasanthakokilam: I am extremely happy to read your post and about your colleague’s son of 18 months who intuitively responds to the metronome. In the same way, I had also exposed all my three sons from their childhood to the inspirative rhythmical intricacies and by all this their rhythmical sense was developed abundantly and, later, they were far better even than the staff-artists of AIR to render the intricate Talas of RTPs while I was practicing Violin to play them by AIR, Hyderabad. In spite of all I did not teach music to any one of my sons thinking that, as per our tradition, I may not teach my students properly if I start teaching my own sons. That is another story. However, my 2nd son, Chi. Bhaskar Akella has become professional-leading-tablist of cine-music-field. amsharma

[msakella]

vasanthakokilam: In continuation to my last post I would also like to state the following.

Getting the initiation from the Nobel Prize winning theory held by Roger Sperry who won a Nobel Prize in 1981 (search Google for details) I have made some experiments along with my disciple, Chi. Sow. Sandhya initiating some kids of a school, here at Hyderabad, in some rhythmical-exercises and found very encouraging results. This experiment reveals that one among the four parts of the kid’s brain positively responds to music, dance, poetry, acting singing, painting, art & craft and the kids could very well be exposed to all these things even before the age 6 yrs. Of course, due to some other constraints we had to stop this project.

However, basing upon the above encouraging information, since September, 2010, I have started initiating two kids of around 7 & 8 years of age residing in US, Adithya and Padmini. Till now, while both of them have completed nearly 25 of the 28-special-laya-exercises and are able to play and sing even the 3rd complicated-daatu-svara in all the 32 Avivadi-melas (some of the URLs of the video-clippings are also furnished in the sub-thread, AMS Easy Methods-2007-CD-Teaching and Learning music in the main-thread, Music School), Adithya is able to play and sing 8 Varnas also and Padmini, being a little bit slow, is able to play and sing two Varnas. In the same manner, on 17th of last month, when I have also started initiating Chi. Rishabh Ranganathan of 7 yrs. of age (who resides in US but presently in Chennai) now he is able to complete up to 22-special-laya-exercises and is ready to proceed further quickly.

By all this, I shall be very happy if many of the parents of the aspirants try to purchase one piece of Casio-MA-150 or LK-230 and keep it nearer to their kids to expose them even before their 6th year of age making them simply listening to the rhythmical-inspirative-instrumental-music emanating from Casio. Or the parents can even download the contents of my AMS Easy Methods-2007-CD and play the 1st & 2nd tracks of it repeatedly to expose their kids to listen to the same. Fortunately, they need not approach any Karnataka-music-teacher who, in general, discourages to use the Casio, but can do this very easily on their own. amsharma

[Tamizhisai]

I sent an email and requested the moderators to start a new thread titled age for learning music and move some of the conversations to it, to avoid further digression. I said I will my post my response to Akellaji there. But since they have not taken any action I’m forced to reply here. My apologies to the members.

Unlike other forums that are strictly moderated where off-topic conversations are curtailed this site encourages all kinds of discussions and self promotions that push interesting threads down the toilet. If you see, my first post #30 was presenting a contrasting view in a decent manner. I have not remarked anything about his teaching/methods. But he suddenly started boasting that he is the greatest teacher in the globe. I found his attitude to be appalling. I had to return in the same coin.

Akellaji, I’m posting in my real name. I’m not anonymous. With your deep roasting and hard grinding I will soon become a popular NAME in this forum. Most people avoid crossing your path. But I will not.

I reiterate if my intention was to belittle the practice of tying the bell, I wouldn’t have mentioned greats like Lalgudi were trained in the same fashion. You are simply nit-picking my wordings. Also you tried to market the bell idea as your own. When it was praised as a creative idea, you kept mum and accepted the compliment heaped on you. Only when I associated the THING with Lalgudis, you started accepting it as an age old habit.

You claimed no teacher is better than you in the globe. So I quoted a few names who are highly respected masters of laya to counter your claim of a global leader. They are more revered as gurus than performers. For that matter every music teacher gives an occasional performance, but people don’t refer them as performing artists/stars because their main profession is teaching. You are trying to deflect the discussion. We don’t know they are in which floor. You claim that you are in the tenth floor. Instead of explaining your position viz-a-viz these great teachers you duck the point and try to escape. Tavil and Nadhaswara vidwans also pass on their rhythmic skills and tradition to the next generation with all dedication. You don’t have heart to acknowledge their mastery over rhythm. Several great performers acknowledge that they have acquired certain skills after listening to the night long nadhaswara concerts during festivals in the Kaveri delta. I do not know about the people from the musical desert.

If there are really great Gurus you kindly bring them out and make them teach you, the late-bloomers and groom in the traditional method of teaching, upload your videos to ‘youtube’ and furnish the relevant URLs in this thread at the earliest.

I complimented a few teachers and you could not digest it and you have rushed to the toilet. At their peak and age, they need not prove their ability, especially to you.

In every conversation you degrade teachers, performers, the staff artists and graded artists of AIR and you generalize everyone. Individuals do not respond to these generalizations. May be they are aware that crossing your path amounts to entering a gutter.

I am not a person to blow my own trumpet. Had I been such a person I would not have given up my lucrative artiste-life right from the date of retirement unlike any other artiste on the globe and taken up the propagation of the easy methods in teaching as a mission for the rest of my life.

You are still blowing your trumpet. If you are doing a great service, as you boast in every thread, let your work speak for itself. Recently Shri MSG has complimented a leading female violinist that she is doing a great service to music by offering free classes. She never boasts about it.

I think you have done enough promotion for the AMS method. Now permit people to look into it and let it gain acceptance. What you are doing is nothing short of spamming!

If you twist words to your convenience nobody can help.

[msakella]

I did nowhere tell that typing bell is my idea. Here, many artistes know this. As I also did in that manner I had simply furnished the same.

At this old age and, only by the grace of the Almighty, being well off in every respect I never need to boost myself. In fact, I need not speak of my easy methods. Even the results of them speak volumes themselves.

Of course, only by the grace of the Almighty, I became more knowledgeable than many others and I also wish to share this knowledge with the aspirants to guide them properly. But, recently, every time I am encountered with one or other unscrupulous elements diverting my attention towards unnecessary and useless conversation which is mostly encouraging me only to keep myself mum. However, sometimes, I am again trying to furnish some rare details to the readers and, in the process, again instigated by one or other unscrupulous element. At this old age and when I have sincerely and seriously been trying to properly utilise each and every second of my most precious time for my sacred mission, I am really vexed of this kind of intruding garbage. Hereafter, I had to restrict myself to respond still sparingly. amsharma

[vasanthakokilam]

I sent an email and requested the moderators to start a new thread titled age for learning music and move some of the conversations to it, to avoid further digression. I said I will my post my response to Akellaji there. But since they have not taken any action I’m forced to reply here. My apologies to the members.

Well, you did not wait long enough A topic about 'age to start learning carnatic music' will be created.

Akellaji's points and opinions are well known and there have been debates about this in the past. Two things annoy people about akellaji's opinionated posts. 1) His low opinions, put downs and characterizations of the current CM teaching methods, teachers as a whole and the disservice he thinks that is being done to the students. 2) His strongly held opinion that learning music should start at a very young age. And starting to learn music after a certain age is not going to get you to professional levels.

These are definitely controversial. Speaking for myself, I am not sure if I agree with all that 100% but I definitely see where he comes from. A debate about this can be conducted in an appropriate manner without calling each other names. For example, 'senile' to describe him is totally inappropriate and disrespectful. So what if his opinions and thoughts are at odds with others and vice versa. That is what makes things interesting. Look at the totality of the person's position, his other contributions and not focus on a narrow sentence or two here and there. Debating those issues with proper respect to each other and without getting all upset and uptight is THE mature thing to do.

I am not saying this just to Thamizhisai or I am saying all this in support of Akellaji. This is something I see in a lot of us, including myself, that we do not know how to handle disagreements without getting our blood pressure up and getting all up tight. Some, who do not go on the offensive so as not to be unpleasant, deal with disagreements in a passive aggressive manner which in effect is no different. The key mantra is "We can still disagree without being disagreeable.". Another thread, another topic, we may be in so much agreement that we want to hug each other

Having said all this, we can move the rest of the debate to other threads and leave this thread for techniques about keeping tala by instrumentalists.

(EDIT: The topic http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16942 about age of starting to learn CM has been created )

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam, What you wrote is absolutely true. Being elders, we all must behave in a decent and ideal manner and I myself, being the oldest among many of us, must remain more vigilant, patient and careful in this respect. Youngsters may, naturally, be more impatient than us but we must be more patient than them, I felt later. Having more experience and having become more knowledgeable in course of time than many others, unless I possibly answer their queries properly who will educate our people. That is why I again entered into the picture.

Dear brother-member, Tamizhisai, I shall certainly give my answers to all your queries but may not be to your satisfaction.

I did nowhere tell that typing bell is my creation. Here, many artistes know this. As I also did in that manner I had simply furnished the same. Does that mean that it is my creation?

Almost since last 3 years I have been writing a number of posts in the sub-thread, AMS Easy Methods-2007-CD-Teaching /Learning music of the main thread, Music School, bringing out all the details of the modern methods of teaching along with the details of the video-clippings of my students who successfully rendered various intricate rhythmical exercises uploaded to ‘youtube’. Time and again I have also made fervent appeals to the teaching community to train their respective students also in the same manner, upload their video-clippings to ‘youtube’ and give the details here for the benefit of the aspirants. But, till now, as no such details have ever been posted in that thread, I feel that there is nothing wrong if I think they all are neither willing to follow these methods nor capable of training their students in this intricate rhythmical-exercises and also to declare myself efficient in doing so than all of them only to instigate them. Even now if any of them comes forward and does the same efficiently I welcome and do not need to declare myself efficient than them. Is anybody ready to take the responsibility in making them do in this manner even for the true benefit of our kids? Nobody is ready.

I did nowhere claim myself the global leader. But, knowingly or unknowingly you have made me the global leader and I thank you for the same.

I have every respect to our masters of Laya like all of us. Yes, I agree with you that they are highly efficient in performing. But, after testing their disciples only I can tell their mastery in teaching. Only after 40 years of close rapport with my students I found myself an inefficient teacher. Teaching is a super-sensitive topic and a very highly efficient teacher only can locate a true teacher but not others at all. Now, having come this far in teaching, if you bring any teacher along with his meritorious disciple I can certainly point out the lacuna of the teacher.

Being a professional-performer-cum-teacher, I always acknowledge the skills and bow down to all the stalwarts. Anybody may think me in any way he likes but I am least bothered. But, in making all our kids highly knowledgeable, if these stalwarts do not feel the responsibility of doing the needful to train them in a proper manner very quickly and efficiently I can’t and don’t spare any one of them.
While It is extremely difficult to grow a plant in a desert it is far easier in a fertile land like Kaveri Delta.

Only after 40 years of close rapport with my students I found myself an inefficient teacher. Such a super-sensitive topic is teaching. We can find umpteen stalwarts and maestros in performing music but you do not know that it is almost impossible to find even a single efficient, honest and reliable teacher. Again you will become ready to find fault with me if I tell that I have been trying my level best to find such a teacher since last 15 years but I could not yet find even a single one. That is the real scarcity of teachers in this invisible-art, Music of the universe.

While in my service, at one place, there were 15 students in my violin-class and after 4 years of study only one student became efficient and passed the Govt. examination with distinction but all others passed in general category. In my introspection after my retirement, when I analysed this incident, most surprisingly, I realised that I could not properly disable that particular student who passed the examination in distinction but disabled all the remaining 14 students successfully. I have later found that many a time the same thing happens even in respect of many reputed teachers leave alone all other ordinary teachers.

‘Vidvaaneva vijaanaathi vidvajjana parishramam’ - An efficient teacher only can locate another efficient teacher but not each and every Tom & Dick.

Yes, I agree that I always degrade all the performers in music as all of them have become highly selfish without doing the needful in respect of our kids dutifully. There is nothing wrong in becoming selfish as a professional performer up to some age-limit. But, all these performers mostly prefer to perform until their last breath but make teaching also in their lean time only to earn money. You do not know that none of them are true teachers. But, with my 40 years of teaching experience as a critical teacher, I can very easily locate an efficient teacher. If you show me a truly efficient, honest and reliable teacher I shall bow down to him at any time. Everybody is becoming ready to blame me that I have always been degrading all the teachers but not a single one of them is able to bring out even a single efficient, honest and reliable teacher before me. That is the pity of them. amsharma

[Tamizhisai]

But, knowingly or unknowingly you have made me the global leader and I thank you for the same.

"I know many things in respect of teaching than any other music-teacher on the globe and, till now, no other music-teacher had ever produced better and quick results"

Sorry, I will never do it even forgetfully. I only said you claim so. I am quoting your exact words.

I have every respect to our masters of Laya like all of us. Yes, I agree with you that they are highly efficient in performing. It is almost impossible to find even a single efficient, honest and reliable teacher. If you show me a truly efficient, honest and reliable teacher I shall bow down to him at any time. Everybody is becoming ready to blame me that I have always been degrading all the teachers but not a single one of them is able to bring out even a single efficient, honest and reliable teacher before me. That is the pity of them.

I have quoted the three names of T.R.Subramaniam, J.Venkatraman and Chengalput Rengathan in your generation who have earned a reputation and acclaim as great Gurus. I have purposely excluded performers like T.N.Seshagopalan. You are beating around the bush. Your post reveal that you are an incurable narcissist. You still duck some points raised by me. There is no purpose in continuing the dialogue.

Let the sole plant grown in the desert lead to growth of more plants around it and create an oasis in the desert. My good wishes.

I thank the moderator for heeding my request and starting a new thread http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16942. Some healthy discussion is going on, thanks to the absence of Akellaji there. His presence curtails healthy dialogue and members avoid participation.

[msakella]

Tamizhisai: You are writing that I still duck some points raised by you. Would you kindly take the trouble of listing out your points and furnish them serially to enable me answer them, dear? amsharma

[vasanthakokilam]

Your post reveal that you are an incurable narcissist.

See, this is the kind of thing I am preaching we should avoid. What is the point? Do you just want to shut up Akellaji from claiming his methods are great or you want to shut him up from claiming other Gurus are not doing it right ( or doing it for money, cheap fame or just plain incompetence ) or you are just very much annoyed about him promoting his methods, you are just venting? If it is any of these, you are going to be disappointed. But if you genuinely want to know why Akellaji makes those claims and debate that, then I can see something productive coming out of it. But the vibe of such debate has to be vastly different from how it is now.

Back to the topic,
The violin issue is resolved, right? OK. What is remaining?

Akellaji put up a challenge to show him examples of great Gurus. Thamizhisai has put up TRS, J. Venkatraman, Chengalput Ranganathan. It is a fair response given Akellaji's challenge... But till now the discussion has been very general but this takes us into talking about individuals of great repute. I suggest we do not dissect the teaching methods of individuals in the heat of this thread since it will vastly distract from the main point and especially from this thread.

[cmlover]

Let the focus be on the topic than on the individual (or actually the mannerism of the poster). By that we gain genuine knowledge on the issue. By ad hominems we destroy the thread and 'jokers' move in to make a mess and folks start blaming the mods for action or inaction.

[Tamizhisai]

I feel sorry to say this. There is definitely a bias toward Akellaji, even if the mods may vehemently deny this. I have not responded to terms like unscrupulous elements, intruding garbage etc. When someone questions his attitude he writes "they are also needed to the society just like toilets and pigs of our society". Mods conveniently ignore it and have not warned him even once. I wanted a healthy debate and suggested a separate thread. In every post Akellaji denigrates artists and teachers as parasites, cheaters et all, all offenses under Indian Penal Code committed by these unknown people if Akellaji is able to prove in a court of law. The mods are not taking this as offense. I have been telling that if his methods of teaching are the greatest, why not he be patient for it to be accepted. Let posterity speak high of him. We talk about Puranadaradasa and Ariyakudi as pioneers and path breakers in certain aspects. Let Akellaji also be heralded like that. Let him not generalize and denigrate contemporary teachers as not sincere, reliable or honest. He rants in every post and that we are not able to bring out even a single efficient, honest and reliable teacher before him. I quoted some names who are mainly renowned for teaching and who don't teach only for money. It is well known in the field. He says he agrees that they are efficient performers. But he cannot decide and comment about their teaching ability without testing their disciples. When he is so uncertain why make such sweeping generalizations? Akellaji's generalizations and accusation in one of the popular carnatic music forum offends even such people and their well wishers. It should not be allowed. Music is an ocean. Most of the masters say "I am still a student who has a long way to go". We should not think of ourselves as the greatest or consider all others as inferior to us. In this context he can certainly be labelled as narcissist. It is only a statement of fact and not offensive.

If Akellaji continues his tirade against all teachers I will again reappear in this forum.

[vasanthakokilam]

Tamizhisai, I agree that the toilets and pigs reference is something I should have caught and done something about.

Instead of denying that I am biased, let me state it this way: We have much more experience with Akellaji, his immense contributions to us, his helpful nature and a general idea where his heart is. Turning our back to him on a challenge from you by quoting one liner here and there is not a cool or dharmic thing to do, and if that is what you perceive as bias, so be it, for now.

But these are all straw man issues, at best secondary and tertiary issues. The key point is, Akellaji's method is drastically different from the standard curricula of CM that thousands of kids go through. A great bunch of them drop out with nothing to show for. Among the remaining bunch, a good bunch learn to sing a lot of songs after numerous years of training but their capability is limited to what they learned. A small minority attain enough skills after these numerous years to be self-sufficient. Why does this pathetic state affairs exist? That is because, the focus itself is not self-sufficiency from the beginning. They do not focus on laya first. Because Laya strength gives them the courage and confidence to develop on their own after a few years. They do not focus on teaching kids how to cook, they give them food.

For me, that is the essence of the AMS method and it is worthy of a great debate among scholars, if they so wish.
I also wish Akellaji has better Public Relations oriented way of writing about the state of CM teaching , but it comes with the package.

His method is a quite radical idea in CM circles and I am not at all surprised that it is not that readily embraced. I have some hope that the more laya oriented masters will see the benefit of the AMS method.

You do not have to disappear to reappear. You do not have to define your role in this forum as providing a counter point to Akellaji. If you have other contributions to make, stick around and do so. Who knows, you and Akellaji may have a common ground on a different topic.

[msakella]

vasanthakokilam & cmlover: Thank you for the timely needed rational analysis and thinking. amsharma

Tamizhisai: My dear, if you take ‘toilets and pigs’ in a bad sense I can’t help. Somebody casually wrote this word in his post and I just pointed out its importance too in our life. But I did not write it in a bad sense. Please wait and just think it for only two seconds positively in a peaceful manner. We can somehow manage even without food and sleep for some time but, by nature, we cannot manage without toilets and their close relatives, pigs. That is what I meant and if you take it seriously I can’t help.

I too want a healthy debate. Why should I invite an unhealthy debate at this age? Are you my enemy? Did we ever quarrel each other like small kids? What serious business we have to remain as enemies for ever? No. It is too bad and everybody is laughing at us. Please mind that and become cool.

My dear, I never prayed any music-teacher on the globe to kindly accept these novel methods of teaching and I never crave for such things in my life. Even though, at the first instance, I have refused to receive, having been persuaded by Pappu Venugopalarao I agreed and received the TTK award expecting that they help for the propagation of Talaprastara and the easy methods in teaching that too for the benefit of our kids only but not my benefit. But, as per their tradition, they didn’t act accordingly. Except this I have refused even lucrative cash awards and a number of titles. No one can believe me if I truly say that this ‘Talaprastara’ and so many hundreds of things including these novel methods of teaching are showered upon me by the Almighty and it is HIS look out to do the needful in this respect. And if HE decides to destroy and makes them vanish who am I to stop? I am least bothered about that but I always do my duty of their propagation until my last breath, only for the benefit of our kids but not for my self benefit.

Knowingly or unknowingly you have used the word ‘path breakers’ of YOUR PIONEERS and you do not know that your path breakers are the real path-breakers of our music in a negative sense. At this age I cannot write all those details here but you do not know that I can very successfully prove it beyond any doubt in any meeting at any place and time.

Yes, I was also one among those parasite-music-teachers squeezing money from the public but giving back nothing even up to the date of my retirement. You do not know that all these parasite-music-teachers are squeezing money from the public under the guise of the useless traditional methods of teaching elongating the process and successfully escaping from the responsibility of inculcating the knowledge of Manodharma-sangita in the poor aspirants. You do not know how much damage has already been done since many centuries but I very well know better than any other teacher on earth. I am ready to prove it beyond any doubt at any time and place if it is needed. My heart burns of it like anything if I just think of it, you do not know. Many people are ready to accuse me of these allegations on music-teachers but are unable to produce even a single efficient, honest and reliable music-teacher along with his/her best-disciple for testing.

Many of our people think great of our stalwarts and I also feel the same that they all are stalwarts but in respect of performing only. Many of us do not know that none of them are efficient, honest and reliable teachers. For all general public every music-teacher is efficient but not for me. If you bring the best-disciple of any music-teacher I shall test the disciple and basing upon the result only I shall evaluate the greatness of the teacher. At this age and experience I cannot simply go on the reputation and acclaim of any performer or teacher. You do not know that many of the so-called reputed teachers are able only in shaping the B-high or A-grade Vidwans but not the younger kids starting from abcds of music. If your efficient teachers are truly capable let them train the kids in a time bound programme and make them perform efficiently like Shreenidhi of Chennai. Can’t they do it if they all are so efficient in teaching? You do not know that they all are efficient only in performing but not in shaping kids. The defect lies in thinking but not in them.

I also always feel myself as a senior-student and I wrote the same many a time in a number of posts. But, as a senior-student, I always want to help our kids but not to squeeze them without giving them anything back.

You need not take the trouble of leaving and re-appearing again but bring a single efficient, honest and reliable teacher of your own choice along with his/her best-disciple for test. amsharma

[Nick H]

I feel sorry to say this. There is definitely a bias toward Akellaji,

let me state it this way: We have much more experience with Akellaji, his immense contributions to us, his helpful nature and a general idea where his heart is. Turning our back to him on a challenge from you by quoting one liner here and there is not a cool or dharmic thing to do, and if that is what you perceive as bias, so be it, for now.

It's a loosely-knit family. In fact, perhaps the knit of some of the members who have been here (and encountered each other on previous forums) is not so very loose: we have been interacting for quite a long time.

Thus, we mostly (with the occasional quarrel, and, sometimes worse) accept each other as we are. None of us need to be told about families; we all have one. You may appreciate your brother-in-law's advice on finance or law, but always leave his house angry at the way his children behave. That's life. It's forums too. There we go, or not, as the case may be: unless we go so far over the line of what is allowed to get ourselves banned, it is our choice.