Concert etiquette and us in US

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 04 Apr 2009, 19:54

May be this is too controversial and forum moderators will remove it. I won't be upset if they do.

As I have said before, I am trying to actively listen and expand my appreciation of carnatic music. I am able to identify many ragas now today compared to none a year ago. So, it was what I was trying to do last night at Sri. Neyveli Santhana Gopalan's concert yesterday, in Austin.

A mother (obviously well versed in music, she was putting thalam in sync with others.) with a constantly chattering 8 year old prevented me from concentrating. After 20-30 minutes, I glared at them. Didn't seem to have any effect. So, I gave up and moved to the last row, last seat during the break between songs.

As luck would have it, a teenager came and sat next to the organizer lady, a few empty seats away. They started chatting non-stop

I put a kumbidu (salutation) and asked them to stop with a hand over my mouth. The girl got up and went away. It was hilarious/pathetic to find them trying talk louder over the 'noise' of NRS's singing, to make each other understand.

In both cases many others didn't obviously enjoy the talk show; but all of them put up with it. I saw the same behavior during an Odissi dance performance by Nrityagram a couple of weeks back.

I know this happens all the time back home and people either tolerate or ask them to shut up.

This is in contrast with the school concerts at my kid's middle school. Many Indian parents/children come but there is pin-drop silence when the orchestra performs. Pity we are not disciplined when we are among ourselves.

I got something out of the concert. It was Rama Navami and NRS sang almost all songs on Lord Rama. I was able to identify about 6 ragas during the alapana phase itself.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 04 Apr 2009, 20:15

Enna _solven,
Enna SolvEn! (what can I say!). When we take pride in successfully transplanting CM to this land, we seem to have brought in the local weeds of behavior too, it seems. A keen listener like you (in multiples) is what those on the stage look forwfard to in a performance. All those songs on Rama went unheeded by some. RamA!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 04 Apr 2009, 21:11

Even those distractions did not distract Enna-solven from indentifying the ragas. That is great achievement.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Apr 2009, 21:57

Same experience with me, beyond an occasional whisper and cursory exchanges, that gets to be quite distracting. People's behavior is more inconsiderate in the less formal atmosphere like temple auditoriums ( especially in the back rows ). We have discussed the thala keeping sounds before, the organizers should make an announcement to the effect 'We understand that it is our tradition and practise to keep thalam, please do that without making any sounds. It is possible to do so'.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Apr 2009, 22:08

Enna_Solven, far from being controversial, you will find that we have often discussed bad audience behaviour.

No-one has a right to spoil your enjoyment; you should feel free to be as rude as you wish to those who do.

But who goes to a concert to be rude and engage in fights? Not even me, these days! Along with my driving yoga, I am practising concert yoga, to try and cut out the distractions, rather than react to them.

But a well aimed "shhh, please" need not cause a fight; many people will realise that they have forgotten themselves and take note --- but the perpetual chatterer, whether it is with the 8-yr-old child or the 80-yr-old grandmother, probably does need something sterner, and will quite likely go away thinking that you were in the wrong, not them!

Please, do your bit towards audience education, and thank you, it is appreciated.

VK... I'd like to hear that announcement!

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 04 Apr 2009, 23:04

What Nick says is what my wife says I should do. According to her the problem is with me

I should be able to tune out others completely. Either do that or buy concert CD's, close my room, put on the headphones & lose myself.

What bothered me more is the negative feelings that got stirred in me. Perhaps I am to blame equally? How to get rid of it? If I ask Thyagaraja, he would perhaps say, "ilAgani vivarimpa lEnu cAla svAnubhava vEdyamE!"

NRS sang for just over three hours with no break. S.D.Sridhara on Violin, Thanjavur Murugaboopathy - Mridangam and our local artist on Kanjira (I forget his name) accompanied him.

karunimpa - varnam (I could not identify the raga)
thulasi dalamulacE
rama bhakthi samrajyam
Raghuvara Nannu (This was very satisfying. For a few seconds I went: bhairavi, thodi, noooo, it is panthuvarali!)
seetha pathi na manasuna
nannu palimpa (main)
RTP (I could not identify the main raga, because of all the commotion and the reaction inside me) but pallavi had Anandabhairavi and Hamsanandhi.
kodhanda rama (Dikshithar, Kokilavaram - not heard this before)
seetha kalyana vaibhogamE
nanmaiyum selvamum (kambar)
rama nAmmamE thudhi
niraimadhi mukam ennum - thiruppugazh
Mangalam: KosalendrAya, pavamAna

I think I got the order right.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Apr 2009, 23:40

To put a different view on it, the problem is not with you, but the decision as to how it affects you is with you.

Possibly the ideal would be to get the message across that the person's behaviour is not acceptable, to do so in a way that educates rather than offends them, and to pass quickly on without the fire of temper disturbing one's own blood.

Ahhh.... ideals...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 05 Apr 2009, 00:50

Enna_solven,
Glad to know you enjoyed the concert in spite of 'rasikAs (?) interference. I suppose when you are keen on getting more familiar with the rAgAs, you naturally need a conducive atmosphere for it. It is not as if you were asking them to do you a favor. You were in a place where people had gathered to listen to music-not to chatter.
SUch a variety of songs on Rama Navami day.
karuNimpa in sahAna, unless there is another varNam starting with those words too. Youknew the other rAgAs too, I guess.

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 05 Apr 2009, 03:45

arasi wrote: karuNimpa in sahAna, unless there is another varNam starting with those words too. Youknew the other rAgAs too, I guess.

Yes Arasi,

I identified the ragas of songs other than Dikshithar's kodanda ramam (NRS announced the song name and ragam before starting it) and the RTP's main ragam & third ragam in the pallavi.

As for the varnam, the lyrics that I looked up in carnatic.com for Karunimpa/Sahana look like what I heard. There goes my confidence about sahana

Till now I was sure that I could identify sahana, neelambari, saranga comfortably.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 05 Apr 2009, 04:12

Enna_Solven,

Your observations are spot on - but, once you make concert going a habit, you will discover among the audience a group of people who are interested ONLY in the music, and, if you sit next to them, you will, for the most part, be able to listen without too many distractions. As parents who take their little ones to these concerts, an extra layer of difficulty gets added, because it would be unfair to both the kids and the serious audience to insist that the children stay inside for the whole concert! My friends and I would take turns to watch the kids outside, making sure they did not make too much noise and were safe, while the others listened to the concert. We would sit together, and none of us would speak. When we went out to relieve the poor soul outside, we'd let the person know the composition that was sung/played.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 05 Apr 2009, 06:37

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 05 Apr 2009, 08:34

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 05 Apr 2009, 08:42

srinivasrgvn wrote: I really don't know but the discipline, the interest and the decency are very much in abundance for Mylapore rasikas. For example, I went to a Vishaka Hari concert in Mylapore. Nobody even moved an inch till the end of the concert. But in the Vishaka Hari concert in Adyar, many people just stood up and went in the middle. I understand that leaving in the middle of a concert is each person's preference, but Mylapore audience seem to be much better regarding certain aspects.

I don't know about Visakha Hari concerts. But in general, I actually have a few contrary observations to make. Its often the Rasikas in Mylapore Sabhas who leave early before or during the Tani. Rasikas in the outskirts usually stay on till the end of the concert. So much so that I have seen some artistes making a request to the audience in Mylapore Sabhas to stay on, as they are most likely from the neighbourhood!

And PS : Am very much from Mylapore. So no bias

Sathej

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 05 Apr 2009, 09:19

sampoorna · Post by **sampoorna** » 05 Apr 2009, 16:50

My dilemma,

Regarding concert going, I am perhaps one of the offending kinds who has a couple children in tow. I enjoy music a lot and am trying my best to provide a good environment for my children. I take them with me to concerts and sit in the last few rows. My children love music and concerts but they are also very energetic. I take coloring, some snacks, etc. and administer them when I feel they are getting restless. They take occasional breaks by going outside. I have seen them progress very nicely with the help of their guru and with their exposure to music. I am amazed at their capability to absorb so much. Of course this is their mother speaking! They are no where close to the kids who win prizes at Cleveland but they are not too bad either for first generation singers. I am improving too! I feel that the exposure that they are getting is what is making them better along with their guru kripa

Getting to the point of this thread, I am so very greatful for the opportunity to attend the concerts with my children. I love that they are right there with me taking in the concert and trying to whisper to me "amma ... this song sounds like ... some song I learned". We are truly growing by listening and practing together (at home of course). I try to keep the whispering and other distracting stuff to a minimum. However, without the kind of concert exposure I would be at a loss. I do not have the right kind of contacts in the music world. This is one of the ways I am trying to get in. I pray that I will be allowed to continue this and also that the children become mature enough to be considerate of others' feelings. On one hand I feel bad and on the other hand I do not want to give up (keep them outside) so easily. What a dilemma caused by my selfishness.

Narayana,

Sampoorna

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Apr 2009, 17:52

srinivasrgvn wrote:I definitely support you all that being silent in concerts is necessary but a person has to talk, if some unwanted friend or relative lands up near you. Relatives clearly don't understand!! If I don't talk to them, they make such a big fuss later!!

Far preferable; only you have to suffer!

I have the perfect excuse; I try to tell people that, because of hearing problem, I cannot hear while the music is going on.

With foreign visitors, I keep a pad and pen handy for questions and answers.

Sampoorna: the most important word in your post is whisper --- you are doing a great job with your children!!

erode14 · Post by **erode14** » 05 Apr 2009, 18:07

just kiding:

srinivasrgvn wrote: If somebody is talking, just tell them to not talk politely first.

???? aleady they are not polite!

If rasikas who come to adyar, get up, unerstand they are from mylapore, hence, they reach safely before it becomes pitch dark!

If rasikas get up in a mylapore concert, let us understand they are from adyar! (nanganallur, ambathur, thiruvallur, kanchipuram!)

For artistes who are famous, most rasikas stay. The question is, whether Concert etiquette is maintained for performers of all the levels. Sometimes, people come to listen just the thukkadas and this can only be checked by singing the post thani songs first.

Once, in a concert of Madurai Shri Somasundaram, it was over crowded. He said, "sivaraman sir... I know what for they have arrived" and sang (as 3rd or 4th piece)marudha malai mAmaNiyE. Half of the people went away! This happened in a concert of Yesudoss too, in Erode. We organised a fund raising concert for veera AnjanEya svAmi temple and lot of common pepole, apart from the regular rasikas, bought the ten rupee tickets and stay for a while, just to look at him!

If some one talks in a concert in a disturbing manner, some rasika who sits 3,4 seats away can't express that much. If artistes stare at them, they slowly realise because, we can each other. But, people, while talking never look the sides as the talking itself happens because, they forget where they are.

I am sure, the rasikas of this forum keep the manners and stay as an example for other listeners or onlookers.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Apr 2009, 20:42

, erode

There is one exception to your rule. In concerts given by famous people, those rasikas who consider themselves important leave with more fuss --- namaskarams to the main artist; waves to the others; chats (standing, at the front) with people in the front row.

What can the artists do? Their next year's bookings may be in the hands of these people!

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 05 Apr 2009, 20:53

sampoorna wrote:My dilemma,

Getting to the point of this thread, I am so very greatful for the opportunity to attend the concerts with my children. I love that they are right there with me taking in the concert and trying to whisper to me "amma ... this song sounds like ... some song I learned". We are truly growing by listening and practing together (at home of course). I try to keep the whispering and other distracting stuff to a minimum. However, without the kind of concert exposure I would be at a loss. I do not have the right kind of contacts in the music world. This is one of the ways I am trying to get in. I pray that I will be allowed to continue this and also that the children become mature enough to be considerate of others' feelings. On one hand I feel bad and on the other hand I do not want to give up (keep them outside) so easily. What a dilemma caused by my selfishness.

Narayana,

Sampoorna

I have no problem with your method. I am not rude enough to say that only grownups should come to our concerts. In our situation where we get 6 or 7 concerts in a year in US, children learning music should get the opportunity to go to every one.

These moms/learning kids whisper and kids go back to listening or to their books. My situation is same as I take my older one to the concerts but not the younger yet. She says it is very hard for her to sit in one place for two hours. She has no clue about length of time yet. For her two minutes, two hours and twenty hours

are all same. My first one is old enough to sit still. Both are learning CM. I hope they can sing at least for themselves in future.

The issue I had was the mother made absolutely no attempt to quiet the child and she talked too, loud enough to distract people sitting near them. And of course I do not have to accommodate the 'talking organizer' and the teenager.

As the crowd is limited in Austin and the seats are not generally reserved, I am going to sit in the front row or second in future. Problem is that I have no clue about thalam (will drift away after a minute) and so I try to leave them for the folks wo are adept at this.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Apr 2009, 23:45

At a concert yesterday, the thala keeping sounds from the audience was in full bloom, much to my annoyance. I thought I would be saved from this during the thani because the 'main' was in misra chapu but thani was not taken for that song. It was later on for a 2-kaLai adi but fortunately, the mridangam sound was loud enough not to bother me too much.

But it got to be too cacophonic during RTP which was in kanda gathi. During some complex maneuvers typical in RTP, it got so bad I had to turn my head towards a couple of thaka-keeping kids ( whom I know ) in the row behind me and signaled them to keep it down. One kid, without taking any offense and smiling, pointed his head to a gentleman in the row behind him as the main culprit. That had the net effect of that gentleman taking it down a couple of nothces which made the over all situation bearable. Hmmm... 10-12 year old kids can be put to such good use, turn them from being a problem to the means to a solution.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 06 Apr 2009, 00:18

Raymond Chen, a Microsoft blogger, in his inimitable style, describes his experiences:

http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archi ... 75652.aspx

and

http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archi ... 26237.aspx

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Apr 2009, 00:32

If I am disturbed by a child, I do believe in trying to communicate with the child.

This is for a number of reasons, the most noble of which is that children are people too, and should be respected and addressed as individuals. The most practical is that, sometimes, a gentle shush from a stranger can achieve what a dozen shushes from the parent cannot.

The case of those who are unable or unwilling to control children that have no interest in the music, but want only to be in a playground, is different.

VK... that is a nice story. I have several times exchanged smiles at subsequent concerts with people I have shushed. I prefer not to fall out with people, even strangers!

One house concert that I attended last year was ruined by the music students (of the singer, I assume), putting talam. I think they would be happier marching on a parade ground. Rupaka talam was an agony: slam, slam, ___; slam, slam ___. There was an army of them, a sizeable percentage of the audience. I was defeated!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Apr 2009, 00:53

>Rupaka talam was an agony: slam, slam, ___; slam, slam ___.

Nick, the situation yesterday was along the same lines, but much worse given that the thalam was in kanda gathi. Each beat of the 7 beat cycle produced three sounds of kanda chapu, Slam, slam,slam,__, imagine the escalation of noise. The noise-keepers were all above average thala keepers but still there is that little variation among them causing a unacceptable smearing around the beat points. When the cacophony was at its peak, I feared for the artist losing the place in the thalam!! Full credit to the artist for taking this all in stride and not getting distracted.

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 06 Apr 2009, 07:33

I adopt Nick's method of using a note pad for exchanging information about raga, composer etc. with my wife sitting next to me. I require perfect silence, other than the performance, in concerts. I get really angry when people chit chat. First I try "sama" methods of staring at the culprits, followed by "shush". If these do not work, I wait for the gap between songs and address them quite loud "stop talking or get out". It may be rude, but that works most of the times.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Apr 2009, 14:39

stop talking or get out

Goodness... I can be quite forthright, but I think I'll have to wait until the day I can engage fellow audience members in fluent Tamil before going that far, and I regret to say that may be a very long way off.

The pen-and-paper is so obvious; I really don't know why more people don't think of it. The reason is that they don't think of why they should not disturb others.

VK... it sounds like you suffered the worst of the tala putters --- those who do not even recognise that a wave is a krya without sound! Adi talam, for instance, has only three claps; many think it has eight.

But hey, I think maybe the point will come when people say don't mention talam if Nick is around; he'll go on and on and on about it. Which is true <Blush>

raj-123 · Post by **raj-123** » 07 Apr 2009, 07:43

This is very important fot me too and I invariably find all sorts of creatures next to where I sit. I attend many dance performances and not so much music concerts in bay area. My experiences include the usual chatty kids and parents who have no intention to silence or discipline them. Ladies discussing silk sarees as usual as if this is the best place for it. I had <EDITED> people who stink extreme garlic when they open their mouth and I had to to go to other end of theater. yesterday was hilarious at ohlone theater in Fremont. A old chinese couple came with a while lady and sat behind us. The elderly chinese guy left apparently to bathroom for 30 mins. The chinese lady was so disturbed and kept slamming herself very loudly every 3 minutes much to the horror of my daughter. The elderly white lady kept shouting Stop it Stop it, but the chinese lady would keep continuing horrible behavior. we have to move few seats away. I glanced at them many times but no help. Ruined the excellent varnam for me. After the interval, the chinese people left and came a indian couple with 2 kids. Who are munching away a whole bag of potato chips as if this is the last day of world. I felt so angry that these people just come to show their face and have no interest in dance or music. The theater rule obviously is no food or drink. Maybe I should act as a police, but again in the theater I do not feel like screaming at them.

Music · Post by **Music** » 07 Apr 2009, 23:11

I have been on the other end of all this. I do try to go to a few concerts with my two little ones aged 6 and 3 yrs because I love attending live concerts. My kids love the music and love to sit through a concert. The one I attended was of TM Krishna and they were both listening with great interest. However, they do act their age and were fidgety, but their ears were all out for the music. I made sure I was sitting in the last row so the artists don't get any disturbance from the kids.
Some rasikas nearby were listening so intently in a meditative mode, that even the slightest noise/movement from the kids disturbs them. I get those stares. I can't blame those folks - they were really enjoying the kutcheri. So I do get in and out of the concert hall to minimise those stares and yet listen to the concert till the end. Was able to do some socializing with other rasikas outside the hall & we were already having a concert review discussion of the concert-in-progress while the kids got to run around.
On the other hand, there were rasikas who liked the way the kids were listening and advised me on bringing them to more concerts.
The thing I can't relate to is how even the slightest disturbance could irritate someone so much. I personally am blissfully oblivious of the noises my kids make whenever I listen to music - they trained me that way

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 07 Apr 2009, 23:26

Music wrote:I have been on the other end of all this. I do try to go to a few concerts with my two little ones aged 6 and 3 yrs because I love attending live concerts. My kids love the music and love to sit through a concert. The one I attended was of TM Krishna and they were both listening with great interest. However, they do act their age and were fidgety, but their ears were all out for the music. I made sure I was sitting in the last row so the artists don't get any disturbance from the kids.
Some rasikas nearby were listening so intently in a meditative mode, that even the slightest noise/movement from the kids disturbs them. I get those stares. I can't blame those folks - they were really enjoying the kutcheri. So I do get in and out of the concert hall to minimise those stares and yet listen to the concert till the end. Was able to do some socializing with other rasikas outside the hall & we were already having a concert review discussion of the concert-in-progress while the kids got to run around.
On the other hand, there were rasikas who liked the way the kids were listening and advised me on bringing them to more concerts.
The thing I can't relate to is how even the slightest disturbance could irritate someone so much. I personally am blissfully oblivious of the noises my kids make whenever I listen to music - they trained me that way

You should keep doing what you're doing - I know that 'sitting in the last row and popping in and out' feeling. My experience with live CM performances in the US is that these performances do not have audiences that fill the halls they are arranged in - so you should be able to find a corner where you can sit with your kids and be left alone!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Apr 2009, 02:06

The thing I can't relate to is how even the slightest disturbance could irritate someone so much. I personally am blissfully oblivious of the noises my kids make whenever I listen to music - they trained me that way smile

It is difficult to know how to reply to this, as it doesn't tell us just how much noise your children were making! In some situations the mother is hypersensitive to the smallest sound (which is how children know how to touch their parents' nerves right from the start); in others, the parent can be oblivious to a great deal.

Really, I guess your best meter is the responses of others. Remember that sometimes the voice of a child can carry further than you realise.

As rshankar says, usually it is possible to find a corner.

I am sure that we want your children, and many more children, to continue to enjoy carnatic music. Suppress every fidget? no. Stop them climbing on the chair, or running around? yes. Somewhere there is a middle path of reasonability.

Above all, I can say that I am much more often offended by the disturbing actions of adults who should know better, than I am by those of children ---- really, much more often.

I'd like to repeat the point that one can always address the child too. Ever found a child exercising their feet on the back of your chair? Of course! Ever sat in an auditorium with flip up seats, where a child has chosen to fidget with the seat next to you? Definitely! Ever tried simply asking them to stop? I have, and it works --- but we must be human, remember that the attention span of a child is not that of an adult, and we may have to repeat the request.

I can say one thing more --- I have never had to listen to a tedious lecture about "our tradition" from those children!