sounds of hindustani and carnatic violin playing.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Apr 2009, 08:40

When you listen to a Jugal bandhi of of carnatic and hindustani violin ( one that I heard N.rajam and T.N.krishnan playing) , what really makes that distinguishable difference in sounds even if the notes are the same. Is it that MEEND way of treating all the notes in hindustani . I could hear that even in fast swara playing ... and there is always a great difference in the way each note sounds.
Does some one know how they treat each note for a raaga like Shankarabharan for instance?

Ganesh

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 05 Apr 2009, 12:11

G_M, EXCELLENT question! I've been wondering about this myself.

T.T.SRINIVASAN · Post by **T.T.SRINIVASAN** » 05 Apr 2009, 20:55

Dear Sri Ganesh Sir, The common thread between the two systems is the concept of raga and tala but there is a significant difference in approach, technique, expression and presentation. The exchange of ragas and certain tool of embellishment, such as gamakas and swarams started long ago with stalwarts like Ustad Abdul Karim Khan and Bade Ghulam Ali Khan visiting south India and getting influenced by certain aspects of Carnatic music and our musicians doing the same. But now with the mutual acceptance of certain compositions and even stylistic peculiarities the two systems are seen complementing and enriching each other. Jugalbandi of two are now becoming increasingly common. And the results are mostly happy since there are basic commonalities between these two types of Indian music even though one must admit that they are not as satisfying as a jugalbandi of two Hindustani or two Carnatic musicians who are then working towards a more homogenous, common musical philosophy.
Listening and watching Hindusthani musicians violin suggests a good amount of practice lessons to our carnatic music
I have myself seen some famous violinists who are adept in playing both systems of music start with "sa" near the frog (ie., near where we hold the bow), and go over the octave 8 times, without changing bowing directions, and it would still sound perfect and swaras being absolutely clean, a quality carnatic musicians often express admiringly of Hindustani musicians.

T.T.SRINIVASAN · Post by **T.T.SRINIVASAN** » 06 Apr 2009, 09:02

The difference in sounds for the same note produced by two violins may be different for the following reasons.
1. Tonal quality of violin changes from violin to violin.It depends on the type of wood used to make the violin, positioning of the bridge and the sound post ,bowing of the artist, handling of notes and the like.
2. Actually when you measure the frequency of the same note prouduced by different violins using C R O , eventhough it is same ( + or - 10%) quality of note is different as it depends on the instrument.
3. In a violin duet concert played by most experienced people also you can observre this variation, so also in the case of flute duet.
4.It is very difficult to get the same quality of sound for any swara even the same type of construction for different instruments is employed.
5. you can also observe the variation when same artist plays the same note in diffrent instruments.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Apr 2009, 14:20

I suspect that slight differences in the harmonics produced by an individual instrument play a part in this?

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 06 Apr 2009, 19:26

No nick No

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Apr 2009, 01:46

No?

But it is harmonics that give voice to all instruments. It is harmonics that make a flute sound different to a violin playing the same note.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 07 Apr 2009, 07:21

Nick,

when you listen to a carnatic duo and and jugalbandi of carnatic and hindustani, you can make the distinctive difference.

In a carnatic duo there is a slight difference but in a jugalbandi there is a vast difference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajtglYDx ... re=related

And dear Nick, the above piece is one of my all time favorites. That is played by N.Rajam , sister of the violinist T.N.Krishnan. Listen to that to see how different the music itself sounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJr-oehp ... re=related

The second is played by Dr.Kala ramnath daughter of Dr.N.Rajam

Every time I listen to these hindustani pieces I am literally awestruck by their hardwork and discipline that totally lacks in our Carnatic music. Sorry folks, truth is bitter always.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 07 Apr 2009, 08:53

The common phrases or sancharas used for the same raga in Carnatic and Hindustani are different. Also the way gamaka is rendered for each note is different.

I think this is the topic of Dr M. Narmadha's PhD thesis.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 07 Apr 2009, 08:56

ganesh_mourthy wrote: Every time I listen to these hindustani pieces I am literally awestruck by their hardwork and discipline that totally lacks in our Carnatic music. Sorry folks, truth is bitter always.

I think this statement is a bit harsh. You are not comparing apples with apples.
Our forum members will be able to cite numerous examples of Carnatic music that the show excellence Carnatic music which is produced by a combination of knowledge, discipline, hardwork and aesthetic beauty.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 07 Apr 2009, 09:10

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 07 Apr 2009, 09:41

Mohan, is Dr. Narmada's thesis available in the public domain?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 07 Apr 2009, 10:35

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Apr 2009, 10:54

It looks to me that in post #4 above, the points mentioned by Srinivasan were about differences in harmonics of different instruments. Those points are general ones and not about HM-CM differences. Post #3 is where he addresses the HM-CM differences.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 07 Apr 2009, 11:26

bilahari wrote:Mohan, is Dr. Narmada's thesis available in the public domain?

Not that I know of.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 07 Apr 2009, 11:38

Going to gallows or going to a concert is a total personal choice

(someone in the forum shoudl take note that I smiled with a smiley- so no serious feelings

) My opinion is that whether we are hooked to carnatic and lesser to hindustani is mostly to do with our orientation.

I once asked Sanjay, if he ever listened to Hindustani music. And his reply was he sometimes did.
He said " being a South Indian I prefer idli dosas to pulkas and roti. I can relish rotis and chapathis once in a while but cannot totally accept it as my everyday partaking"

It is a simple case in Sanjay as he is a performing musician with less time in his hand practising he should rather practise and enhance his music and system. I am with him in his case.

But as a connoisseur of music, how many of you listen to chinese , korean , japanese , or polish musics. We are mostly happy with our own precious and greatest superior devine carnatic. We neither can understand or have the knowledge to compare.

So listening to a particular artiste is a subjective term and it varies from person to person. But the flaw seen in a music is definitley a FLAW. When I mention the playing of these 2 artistes what is also conspicuous and noteworthy is the precision of note sound even in gamakams. The perfection with which the brihas are cascading at higher speeds. You could see a similar awe inspiring control in MSG.( whether one likes msg or chowdiah is a personal taste) This precision of sounds sounds musical to me. Just that they start it slow does not camouflage their skills.
So , does our carnatic music which quickly gets to sangathis with quite many screeches here and there whithout the note clarity here and there could be considered worthy?

I am not against these quick phrases but prefer to listen to these phrases crystal clear rather than rattling sounds at times. I dont ever confuse music with preferences and styles. Harsh it may sound but this is my firm opinion.

We should not condone serious lapses with sentimental abstractions. I may not understand chinese or polish musics but this difference in carnatic and hindustani is clear and quite perceivable and hence I opined.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Apr 2009, 12:13

I watched the way that the young girl whose house concert Coolji organised last year, and asked her about it. She told me that TNK, her guru, had insisted that she take Western violin lessons to achieve the sound quality and disciple of play in bowing etc.

My impression, although lacking the experience of you guys, is that the sound quality of the current generation of violinists is pretty excellent, whilst I have heard, and even seen, some rather scratchy stuff from elders.

(Just dropping in, I'll be back to check the links later!)

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 07 Apr 2009, 13:38

Yes Nick . very true. Once we are out of our prujudices that old is the Only gold our music system would march perfect. Some olds very truly gold but not all. I feel that some even hampered healthy acvancements in certain ways with their conservative thnking or out of self intersts. Quite of us know quite some of it . but let us leave it here owing to decency.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 07 Apr 2009, 14:18

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 07 Apr 2009, 14:43

OK. all right . I read them

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 07 Apr 2009, 15:54

@ coolji

Yes, Dr Rajam's violin presentations do indeed seem different from vocal HM I've heard (I haven't heard much of either, but yes, there is some difference).
---

@ ganesh_mourthy

Have you never heard a pitch-perfect Carnatic musician (especially violinist) who has had no exposure to Hindustani music?

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 07 Apr 2009, 16:32

fellow rasikas,

There is always this problem that we take the fringe ideas seriously in this forum.

-----------

We had an accountant in my Friend's company who was too peevish about everything from rooms nt being squeeky clean, colleagues not with friendly air, watch man not on time, but was too frivolous about the indescrepancy that would occur during his final tally of accounts. But he fails to understand that he is a an accountant more than a whistleblower.

------------------------------

It is the same here too. we miss a lot in tonal quality comparing our north Hindustani music. But talking of this subject irritates everyone.

It is a leave it alone and dont care attitude.

More of " neither we have it, nor we can get at it and let us not irritate ourselves talking of it."

But I stongly feel that the tonal quality is the base of any music and ornamentation with a poor structure is a mere waste. Any no of complex sangathis or kanakku does not embellish a poor shruthi music in my opionion. Of course for many vidwat without refined clear music is fine only in carnatic music.

Being a south indian and admirer of our music system I feel that it is more tolerable when we amend it with our own healthy criticism rather than an outsider pointing at it sarcastically. ( and we all know that it happens)

Even a mediocre HM musician has more control of his music than our stalwarts.

I recently listened to one dharmavathi piece by HM singer and a famous CM artiste and there is a lot to be desired from our brethren in terms of shruthi sudham.

And dear Srikanth , sure I have heard , but just 2 or 3 musicians from our lot does not represent our whole system.

Wheras N.Rajam sure can as most and most Hindustani musicians have this clarity in delivery.

And dear dear Coolkarni,

I am afraid you have mistaken . I am not against our music system. I am against our tolerance to shrudhi asudham in many musicians. Correct this and we can pat ourselves for having a world class music.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 07 Apr 2009, 16:47

@ g_m

One way in which you can help CM achieve this is to not attend concerts of an artist you know for shruti imperfection, except occassionally to check if things have changed.

But strangely enough, you often stress on "shruti perfection with gamakas in fast speed" -- where as you say complicated sangatis and kanakku are not required. Why do you want gamakas and fast speed more than you want many sangatis and kanakku, when the latter two are indeed one aspect of CM? Please think about it!

That said, tonal quality is something at least vocalists can't do a lot about. Pitch perfection, on the other hand, is very important, and good practice can certainly achieve it (minus, of course, a few slips).

And then, I don't think pitch mistakes are as common among Carnatic violinists as you make it out to be. Do look at my "slips in concerts: how do you view them" thread.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Apr 2009, 18:56

Two clips listened to so far

ganesh_mourthy wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajtglYDx ... re=related

And dear Nick, the above piece is one of my all time favorites. That is played by N.Rajam , sister of the violinist T.N.Krishnan. Listen to that to see how different the music itself sounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJr-oehp ... re=related

The second is played by Dr.Kala ramnath daughter of Dr.N.Rajam

Every time I listen to these hindustani pieces I am literally awestruck by their hardwork and discipline that totally lacks in our Carnatic music. Sorry folks, truth is bitter always.

It is certainly different. I just do not have the ear or the experience to talk about how, and I would certainly not try to to compare.

As always, my response to music is just personal. I very much warmed to (by) N Rajam's performance. Kala Ramnath (leaving aside what and how she was playing) produces a note from the violin that is more akin to the western violin sound. We have the benefit of seeing KR in a workshop demonstrating some of her own techniques; we also have the written note of the film maker that these techniques were beyond the students present in the class.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 07 Apr 2009, 19:04

Again to Srikanth,

You all uniformly misunderstand me. All that I say is shrudhi sudham is basic and essential and adding sangathis and kanakku to a not so shrudhi shudham music is somewhat so repelling to me.
but imagine how beautiful all those sangathis woudl be shoudl you be able to hear those phrases more sudham than shaking all notes where a few notes goes out of shrudhi.

I wish people understand the underlying message clearly. Or rather I was straight!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 07 Apr 2009, 19:07

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 07 Apr 2009, 20:27

Coolkarni,

Thanks for your understanding.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Apr 2009, 20:41

I think I understand what you are saying, but I'm afraid that my ear is just not good enough.

I've heard people with 'perfect pitch' say that it is not a gift, it is a curse. Maybe I should just be be happy that I am not aware of these things.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 07 Apr 2009, 21:07

true to some extent, Nick.

I remember reading this somewhere but I dont remember.

There was this curious person sitting next to Balamurali in the flight gushing at him with his doubts about music.

He worriedly told balamurali, if he could only understood music much better and every aspects of it he would be in a better state of enjoyment and appreciation.

For which Balamurali quipped , I wish I were you .

if you understand all the aspects of music you would neither appreciate nor enjoy any music and all that you hear would be a set of flaws and chaos.

I remembered this when Nick is so satisfied with his limited knowldege.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Apr 2009, 21:39

Satisfied? No... but I can appreciate how hard it must be to be better informed, and I can really believe that BMK story.

coolkarni wrote:Nick
This is one for you to checkout - Lalgudi-Chaurasia-Hamasadhwani for about 45 minutes without the beats
http://www.esnips.com/doc/c03bdfab-7f73 ... amsadhwani

That was very nice.

(Now... was it only because I knew that it was Hamsadvani that I, several times, felt that they were about to break into Vatapi --- or has one raga started to set itself in my brain cells?)

Do you have the rest of that? I'd like to hear it.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 08 Apr 2009, 06:56

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 08 Apr 2009, 08:20

T.T.SRINIVASAN · Post by **T.T.SRINIVASAN** » 08 Apr 2009, 08:45

Sri coolkarni sir, Namaskara ! May I know the artist's name ( if you have no objection ) who has played that shuba pantuvarali? Thanks in Advance.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 08 Apr 2009, 08:50

Coolkarni,

. very many thanks for that clip .but speak from your heart . does a few pieces like these stands reference to the whole playing lot? You have to swim deep to dig some pearls like this out

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 08 Apr 2009, 08:50

Yes I can guess the artiste.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 08 Apr 2009, 08:53

Dear Coolkarni,

Is there a way I can download that clip? I thnk i can only listen from esnips.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 08 Apr 2009, 08:53

Dwaram?
Or MSA?

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 08 Apr 2009, 09:25

Dear Bilahari,

Dwaram and MSA ( parur) are 2 entirely different playing styles.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 08 Apr 2009, 10:06

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 08 Apr 2009, 10:07

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 08 Apr 2009, 10:58

Dear dear Coolkarni,

Again from your list of treasure troves I am not happy with particurly one. It is more noise and apasruthi than music. I dont want to pin point. Dig on to musical instinct and you can make out.

by the by I saw a pic of a smart boy with salt and pepper hair name chennai rasika ( in esnips )who is also 30 year old. who could that be I dont know!

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 08 Apr 2009, 11:06

About the clips of dwaram I feel that it is more clear notes and less gamakams. But our music evolved a lot after his period with the advent of the Frios . not trios.

But I dont really understate the music of dwaram. The sophisticated cars that we sit and travel is just a development of another car 20 years back. the same applies here. But should we not retain the quality rather than spoiling it.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 08 Apr 2009, 12:30

I vaguely remember an interview where MSG has expressed great fascination for Dwaram's music. Dwaram had such sweet bowing!

G_M, I was a bit confused because it didn't seem totally Dwaram-like but MSA also has a pretty different playing style from MSG from what little I've heard- don't you think?

But I guessed it to be Dwaram first because I know how much Coolji loves his music!

T.T.SRINIVASAN · Post by **T.T.SRINIVASAN** » 08 Apr 2009, 14:18

Dear Sri coolkarni , Your presumption is right. I am son of Sri T.S.Tatachar. Thanks for welcome. Since rasikas were discussing about violin strings, change of gurus etc., I thought I could supplement what little I know. About the recording eventhough I guessed it to be Sri Dwaram & Smt.Mangathayar, at some places I got doubt because of obvious reasons. I have heard many concerts of Sri Dwaram
( both in person and otherwise ) but this recording is slightly different.
I am wondering whether we know each other.Have we ever met? Because you have addressed me as T T S which is how people known to me address me. Thanks .

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 08 Apr 2009, 14:45

http://images.google.co.in/imgres?imgur ... n%26sa%3DG

dear T.T.S Sir,

It felt nice tracking a pic of your in hindu friday review. i am glad you are with us. Could you acknowledge.

Cheers,

Ganesh

T.T.SRINIVASAN · Post by **T.T.SRINIVASAN** » 08 Apr 2009, 14:54

Dear Sri Ganesh,

Thank you very much for your compliments ... regards . .. T.T.S

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 08 Apr 2009, 15:05

No bilahari, msg and msa are pretty the same in style. You hardly get to see such disciplined duo or trio in our carnatic music. I could see that when the msa . mas, and mak playing too. And again when Msg and Narmada play. Kumaresh and Ganesh play too but they are of a somewhat different genre.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 08 Apr 2009, 16:43

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 08 Apr 2009, 17:42

MSG and MSA differ quite distinctly in their accompanying styles. Their 'technique' as such is the same, yes. But the way they accompany in concerts is rather different.

Sathej

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 08 Apr 2009, 19:39

but they synchronize so well during duo