Carnatic vocal music with a muted/absent violin

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Feb 2009, 13:10

Shivadasan, a fascinating historical perspective, very interesting to read even though some names are not known to me (too young, and/or grew up in wrong country).

I'm reminded of watching All-in Wrestling on the television as a child. Did we watch it for a good, clean fight? No! We watched it for the bad boys, for the drama --- Mick Macmanus, the man they love to hate. I am enjoying a fantasy of Mylapore audiences of old (especially the ladies; they were always the worst in the wrestling audiences) cheering on the musicians in every worsening displays of violence! And the referee, trying to enforce discarding rules, and often being set upon by both contestants; who shall we cast in this role? The mridangist? The Sabha secretary? The chief guest?

Hey-ho... better bring my imagination under control and my mind back to the subject...

One of my favourite aspects of carnatic music is the team work and the astonishing demands made on those who accompany the unpredictable. I appreciate that that team harmony is sometimes not there, or there to lesser or greater degrees; this is one of the things that keeps some concerts on the ground, or differentiates between a concert that soars and one that merely flies. To run a marathon is amazing; flight is a miracle; we cannot be dissatisfied because every concert does not soar.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 26 Feb 2009, 07:59

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 26 Feb 2009, 09:07

Thanks Cool. Effortless singing and brilliant accompaniment.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Feb 2009, 09:56

Satish,
Sorry to say this, but a loud mrudangam can be as disruptive to my listening pleasure as a violin seems to bother you. Even the best among them put me off when they thirst for 'more' amplification.
Personally, I don't think a CM concert is complete without a violin. Yes, a violinist who leads, underplays and is simply bad don't help a good vocalist at all. Yet, how a good violinist enhances any concert!
Is 'harping on' the same thing finding a new expression among us--'fiddling on' something? Fiddle dee dee!

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 26 Feb 2009, 11:04

Thanks Cool,

Wonderful Shanmugapriya. Voleti is one of my favourite singers

Satish · Post by **Satish** » 26 Feb 2009, 23:11

After reading through the many responses provoked by my original posting and thinking through the diverging points of view I've come to a new understanding of the use and misuse of instruments on the Carnatic vocal stage. While to my ears the violin (often) sounds harsh and not complementary to the voice I considered especially my positive experience at some performances where the violin added value to the concert and rounded up the voice without attracting attention to itself (e.g., in recent times Embar Kannan in accompanying Sudha Raghunathan or Sowmya.) I'm now open to acknowledging that the difference lies as much in the violinist's skill as in how the violin sounds to my ears. I guess my (and some others too, from what I read here) preference is for the violin (and mridangam) to maintain a low-key presence so it may be a while before I get to appreciating performances where the violin is unmuted and assertive. I'm not yet where you are, CoolKarni, Voleti-Lalgui notwithstanding!

Arasi, I agree, a loud mridangam does disrupt my listening pleasure too. In my experience the violin has been more at fault on that count than has the mridangam (or ghatam or moorsing!) and there are any number of reasons to explain that, I suppose.

I also learned from this discussion that the sub-genre of CM vocal music involving dual vocalists is something that would appeal to me, given my bias. That lit a spark in me as in the past I've enjoyed dual vocalists very much so I'm already off and about in that direction. It would have taken me a long time to come to that conclusion on my own so you saved me time and effort and I appreciate that very much. Happy listening, folks!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Feb 2009, 00:25

This was posted by devalangi in the "Big 6" thread. You will know the relevance to this thread once you watch the videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfN4xItZTh4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xscN9RP4j0M

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 27 Feb 2009, 09:17

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 27 Feb 2009, 14:30

An over-loud (over-amplified, usually) percussion instrument is always the most disruptive thing. Other instruments may drown out, but they lack the high peaks of sound that a drum produces.

These peaks of sound are equally ugly to ear and recording equipment: just watch the meter!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 27 Feb 2009, 19:22

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 28 Feb 2009, 02:19

coolkarni wrote:they were on a tight leash.Not a gram of individual space for them.That was the kind of intense focus he,the vocalist ,demanded. Closer home , I think MS's music comes closest to this genre , if one may call it so.

Well the leash was held by some one not on the platform (LOL). MLV also had a pretty strong hold. Pattu Paatti (DKP) was very soft in my opinion.

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 07 Apr 2009, 17:02

Satish wrote:Funny thing is, I have already done (and for some time now) what Money suggests: listen to recordings of big name musicians where their voice and singing dominates and the violin is a low-key accompaniment and in some cases, even absent. E.g., Musiri singing Pahi Ramachandra, KVN and Arunachalanadam, etc. Their voice, the swara kalpanas, the neravals, and so on were simply divine. I didn't feel the violin, in its absence or low profile, detracted from the quality of the music at all. And no, they didn't sound like novices at all to me. In every way it was music of the highest order.

I don't buy the argument that Carnatic music without a violin is a bhajanai. Imagine Carnatic music before the violin made its advent. Did it lack the complexity, intricacy, or the richness it has today in the vocals? Was it nothing more than just bhajanais?

If one were to consider a spectrum wrt richness and complexity, bhajanais and shlokams/stothrams at one end and kritis at the other end (with neravals, etc.), isn't there a space for one gets the complexity and intricacy present in a kriti but where the violin is absent or low in profile?

Hindustani music, which shares a common foundation with Carnatic, has it and doesn't lack in quality or creativity. Where in Carnatic can I find it?

In James Rubin's collection,we can listen to MSS singing to the accompaniment of Veena by KSNarayanswami and also MSS herself playing which is very soothing and makes us appreciate the nuances in MSS Gamakas

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 18 Apr 2009, 22:14

HNBhagavan
I have read with interest the debate about violin accompaniment in vocal concerts.I feel without good accompaniments vocal will be monotonous.That is the case with female vocalists who are not accompanied by good ones. The swara pattern exchange say in TVS concert if a good violin accompaniment is not there would be difficult even to think of.
I request Rasika forumites to respond to new entrants also. I found that my posts have been practically ignored.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 18 Apr 2009, 22:28

^^^

I think you've misunderstood. We're not debating whether any accompanist will do for a good enough main artist. The debate is whether a violin accompanist should be there at all.

Swara (and neraval -- and alapanai and tanam) exchanges can be done with a fellow vocalist / musician playing the same instrument.

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 19 Apr 2009, 09:20

srikant,
My personal opinion is that violin enhances a music concert.Hence It is better not to disturb the present structure. I have heard vocal without any accompaniment in temples,functions etc,but it sounds monotonous
Thank you for your response.
HNBhagavan.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 21 Apr 2009, 16:05

niramayan · Post by **niramayan** » 21 Apr 2009, 17:37

What a divine post Coolkarni sir .. !! Thanks a ton !

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 21 Apr 2009, 20:11

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 22 Apr 2009, 07:57

Srikant1987 said,
"I think you've misunderstood. We're not debating whether any accompanist will do for a good enough main artist. The debate is whether a violin accompanist should be there at all.
Swara (and neraval -- and alapanai and tanam) exchanges can be done with a fellow vocalist / musician playing the same instrument."

Coolkarni's latest esnips Bharavi record has once and for all settled the issue. Carnatic music can be enjoyed fully in a sober manner even without any accompaniments ! Coolji must be congratulated for giving us the record.
The voice itself is so tuneful and divine that it would have shone even without the sruthi box . Very few can boast of such a perfection in sruthi. Is it DKJ's voice ?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 22 Apr 2009, 08:37

niramayan · Post by **niramayan** » 22 Apr 2009, 12:10

coolkarni wrote:it was my pleasure.
I will see if I can handle one more tonne of thanks , since I have one more such track

okay .. here it comes in advance : Thanks a ton again !

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Apr 2009, 20:11

Our Internet DJ coming through big time! Thanks Cool.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 23 Apr 2009, 07:51

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 23 Apr 2009, 15:34

coolkarni wrote:http://www.esnips.com/doc/9fb6738e-b0ea ... iravi-HOME

For cienu and others (in case you dont have it)

Played this for my mother who is with me in Bangalore and she was moved. She said that it never occured to them in those days to record the innumerable practice sessions with Semmangudi at the music room in Kalki Gardens.

Thanks Coolji.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 23 Apr 2009, 17:42

kaapi · Post by **kaapi** » 24 Apr 2009, 20:22

Coolkarni

I heard the Bhairavi last night. I am still searching for words to thank you. The whole of today Bhairavi has been swirling in my head. For ardent Semmangudi fans this is a double treat. With his Karaharpriya slant SSI rarely sang Bhairavi in public concerts. If he sang Bhairavi it was kamakshi with no alapanai. Thank you once again for a wonderful Bhairavi..

I just want to know if there is any possibility of uploading any javali by SSI under similar settings.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 24 Apr 2009, 22:06

rajeeram · Post by **rajeeram** » 24 Apr 2009, 22:44

I echo kaapi's sentiment on that Bhairavi:) Thank you Coolkarniji.

Might be a dumb question...though I can listen to it, am unable to download, should I say,snip it,from esnips. Any ideas? Or am I in need of some serious sleep? (I do have an esnips account)

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 25 Apr 2009, 07:46

kaapi · Post by **kaapi** » 25 Apr 2009, 17:17

Thank you once again.

There is a lot of difference between thinking about the wine that you have tasted in a party and carrying home a bottle and taking a sip wherever you like to.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 26 Apr 2009, 18:45

cienu wrote:Played this for my mother who is with me in Bangalore and she was moved. She said that it never occured to them in those days to record the innumerable practice sessions with Semmangudi at the music room in Kalki Gardens.

Ah Kalki Gardens sessions with Semmangudi (probably with MS too right?). May I know you mother's name?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Apr 2009, 19:42

srkris,
It is Radha Viswanathan.

R2 · Post by R2 » 27 Apr 2009, 15:12

Hello, Rasikas!

I'm a new member and a vainika.

The reason for the violin sounding harsh is that it is played at one octave higher than the vocalist's pitch. it is also, by nature, a loud instrument. Further, it is seen that some violinists want the volume of the accompanyting violin to be equal to that of the vocalist. Naturally, this causes irritation to the listener.

On the other hand, the veena is played at the same pitch. When a veena is played well, one can almost feel as if someone is singing.
The main reason for the veena becoming unpopular as an accompaniment is its low volume.

Today, with electronic veenas available, this drawback is not there any more. It has quite an amazing sustenance and can sound very natural. I have myself accompanied vocalists at concerts with very good results.

I think vocalists should start using veena (electronic veena) as accompaniment and see the difference.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 27 Apr 2009, 16:01

Loud? Often we struggle to hear the violin at all!

vganesh · Post by **vganesh** » 27 Apr 2009, 18:00

Little tangential. I went through msstribute.org and read about kalki gardens. I really felt Kalki gardens could have been preserved as one of the symbol of CM. Even now I feel in Tamilnadu, CM do not get the attention it deserves

rajeeram · Post by **rajeeram** » 27 Apr 2009, 19:18

Thanks again coolkarniji for your generosity.