What artists owe the rasikas, their hosts, and the art

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 13 Apr 2009, 11:46

Let me give a little bit of background so that readers have some idea about where I am coming from.

I have hosted a variety of artists in North America over a period of years in some of the cities I have lived in. Artists have lived in my house for a week at a time or more in between concerts and I have driven them thousands of miles between cities so that a few hundred dollars can be saved in airfare so that a struggling organization in a small town can have a concert. I continue to be plugged in into what is happening in tours because I have eyes and ears in several cities who report to me the confidential matters that never see the light of day.

Contrary to the rosy-hued lenses through which rasikas (who have no contact with the artists except at the concert venues) view their favorite artists, I have seen them all close up with warts and and all. I can tell you that the vast majority of them don't care a hoot for art... for them, music and dance is a way to make a living - as it should be. And if in the process they can skim off a few extra dollars at the expense of their sponsors/hosts, they have no hesitation in doing so - not quite as it should be.

I remember one pair who made $400 in long-distance calls to India in three days and never reimbursed the host. The tour sponsor was presented with the bill. Can you imagine how much it would amount to when they probably did the same thing in 20 cities over three months? Do you think the tour sponsor had $8,000 in profits?

I know of a case where a very famous vidwan -- held in great reverence by rasikas and musicians alike -- arranged and performed at a private concert in the same city where a local organization had arranged for his concert. He took home an extra $1,000 or so from the collection at the house-concert which, if it had not been held, would have gone to the organization which was incurring a loss to host his concert. By the way, he did this to the sponsor who has been financially helpful to him for a decade or more! (I was at this private concert some 15 years ago. Anybody in San Jose willing to talk about this?)

The question that arises is: if a musician claims that he/she could not perform well because of jet lag/illness (or any other reason), should he not refund the money spent on him? Should he at least offer to perform for free at another time at that venue? Or perform free at some other venue so that the sponsor has some financial recompense?

I can see people countering that a person who claimed jet lag at a southern California city actually performed up to audience expectations. Why would that artist then trot out jet lag as an excuse?

I do recall another incident about fifteen years ago. K J Jesudas had signed on to a six-city tour of the US and the average fee a local sponsor paid was $6,000. As three or four concerts had been completed, KJY received word that he had been selected for the President's Award for the Best Playback Singer. He informed the sponsor that the date of the last concert at Dallas conflicted with the award function in New Delhi and he would therefore cancel the concert. When the sponsor countered that the income from the last concert was needed for him to make ends meet, KJY not only paid him the amount agreed upon between Dallas and the sponsor in NY but paid all the money that had been spent in advertising, hall rental, etc. That is a rare instance of honor or "gauravam" taking precedence over bank balance but KJY is like that. He holds his head high while remaining extraordinarily down-to-earth in his dealings with the sponsors and rasikas.

However, it is the haughty ones that have no "gauravam". After all, "gauravam" does not feed a person; money does.

PS. I started a new thread because I didn't want my response to be buried in page 5 of some stupid rant by people who have never had financial responsibility for a concert but who feel that they got their money's worth (all of $10, the price of their ticket) if they got to hear "Vishamakkara Kannan" even when croaked in a frog's voice.

vganesh · Post by **vganesh** » 13 Apr 2009, 12:02

Dear Harimau; First request. You should continue to be there in this thread and be part of this discussions/ writings till this takes its logical conclusion as you are morally responsible for starting this. (Your other thread continue to run wherein you were not to be seen anywhere in between

). Because persons like me take the discussions/ topics seriously and try to understand the world through people like you who have more experience and seen more. Hope you would be around.

vganesh · Post by **vganesh** » 13 Apr 2009, 12:14

I also heard from friends/relatives that the musician go from here try to take advantage of the host's situation for a few dollars more. Hence many people in US try only to be rasikas and they are afraid of hosting the artist.
The answer is artist do owe it to the host. And it is applicable more if they are outside their native land/country/state. Because orgainising any public event is not a joke. It involves more passion, sweat and money. Returns are most of the time bricks... You have to be little thick skinned. That is why people became more commercial ( we call them professionalism).
I feel you are doing a great job. hats off.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Apr 2009, 12:52

It would be nice if 'becoming more commercial' equated to 'professionalism', and I'm sure that many promoters would agree.

In Chennai, carnatic music is cheap. Most of the year, thanks to sponsors, concerts are free for us, and I do not imagine that, other than a few hall-filling 'stars', very much cash is earned by the musicians, especially the accompanists. I think this contributes to the overseas tour rush, and I have no doubt that there is as much intention to fill the pockets with cash as to present to the art.

Of course, as a one-time Londoner, I was only too glad that, for whatever reasons, artists did come!

As to things like international phone calls, did it occur to the host to simply say 'No --- you may not run up my phone bill'. Well, maybe it did the next time! Or maybe there wasn't a next time; I know of one (Indian-origin) Londoner who admitted two dancers as guests, and felt so used and taken advantage of that she simply said never again.

If the music was to be on a commercial basis, these people would be in hotels and trains, but then... if the music had to be commercially successful , it would collapse. How many performing arts in the world survive except through grants and sponsorship, worldwide?

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 13 Apr 2009, 13:06

Dear Harimau,

It is not OK in any case to cross the threshold of decency when discussing about a named artiste in public. This is our prime concern here. Civility is not optional, and as the admin of the forum, I feel entitled to voice my concerns on this; even though I accept the truth of all you have had to say. I have an issue only with comments that could be viewed by the majority as personal attacks on named persons.

You are perfectly entitled to hold your opinions and to put them forth to others only as long as it is not slander. I am not saying your comments have been slanderous at any particular instance, but many of your comments are getting pretty close. I have already emailed you on this.

It can adversely affect the forum's credibility, and we dont need to do that just so one member feels content he has cried his heart out, damaging scores of relationships in the process.

What is more important than the truth is how it is told.

This is a voluntary forum, and we believe in a policy of minimal moderation. We frankly hate to curtail anyone's freedom of expression.

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 13 Apr 2009, 15:22

vganesh wrote:I also heard from friends/relatives that the musician go from here try to take advantage of the host's situation for a few dollars more. Hence many people in US try only to be rasikas and they are afraid of hosting the artist.

I have heard of various anecdotes etc. but it is unfair to generalise and tar everyone with the same brush. I think it is sad that in the first place artistes have to be put up at homes as opposed to hotels as is the case with more box-office-friendly musical genres. Looking at some of the artiste tour schedules on their websites, I am amazed at their stamina in spending 2-3 months living out of a suitcase shuttling from host to host. If one takes into account the time invested (as opposed to number of concerts) I doubt that the financial return is all that great for many of the artistes. Light-music show organisers for instance fly in performers to North America just for the weekend or (maybe two at the most).
The sad thing is that Carnatic music in general has been cheapened as pointed out by "nick H" with amateurs, dilettantes, and wannabes queering the pitch for full-time professionals with active abetment by the media. So unless the field attains the status of a serious professional pursuit, I dont see how there can be much change for the better.

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 13 Apr 2009, 15:25

Srkris

I am also aware of certain things you have written. Of course i have great concern for what mr.harmau has written. On the hind side i hv scores and scores of stories to tell about the travails of artistes at the hands of hosts abroad? and i am sure many of my fellow artistes will concur on the treatment meted out to them at the hands of some haughty and arrogant hosts. cn i pour out as a rejoinder and in support for my fellow artistes ? After that it will turn into a sour debate ... who doesnt need money these days ? tell me sirs ... if an artiste demands more money he is thought of as a cruel person or if the artiste finds a way to earn an extra money he is looked down upon. Whereas the same thing is not true in many parts of our day to day life.

We have to take it as what Goundamani says in a movie : Arasiyalla idellam sagajamappa ...

Or vadivelu says "Idellam kandukrapadadu"

Just because 90% of the artites dont talk in this forum and give vent to their feelings please dont put the blame on artistes alone. If Mr.harmau's comments on money alone i think he fails as every one wants money and artistes are no exception and he cannot take that as a ground. If it is some behavioural aspects like telephones etc they can be sorted out with the artistes themselves instead of generalising and trying to tarnish the image of all the artistes who travel abroad. After all they travel 2 or 3 months to give pleasure to innumerable rasikas leaving their family behind. What is wrong if a few calls are made ? (if it goes overboard you have got every right to say it boldly).

If an organiser or host finds it difficult to handle the artistes it is better that they find an alternative. If it is for the love of music let it be so.

J.Balaji

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 13 Apr 2009, 15:45

I have been running NZ Carnatic Music Society for the last 15 years and scores of artists have come to this beautiful country and given some wonderful performances. They have always stayed in the homes of the committee members. I can, with my hand on my heart, say it with all honesty, each and every artist has behaved with diginity, gauravam and with lot of respect. Thankfully, we have never experienced the kind of instances the author of this thread has described in his submission. In life, there are always exceptions to the rule, there are always bad apples but that does not necessairly mean we can take the broad brush to all the artists based on a few stray unfortunate incidents. Even if such incidents have happended, we can discuss them in this forum in decent tones with out resorting to any name calling and coming down on people from dizzy heights. I hope to see this thread coming to natural conclusion with out the need for the moderators to jump in and close this prematurely. Regards....Sam

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 13 Apr 2009, 16:07

Sam Sir

I think your version itself will put a stop to this thread and moderators need not close this down.

JB

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 13 Apr 2009, 16:25

Mridhangam,

What you say is right. It is not going to do any of us any good to cast aspersions on particular persons in public. If at all the intention is to highlight any flaws, it has to be discreet and to the point.

I honestly do not see how singing (or croaking as one member above put it) "Vishamakaara Kannan" is related to running up the host's phone bills to the tune of several hundred dollars! Maybe we are mixing up irrelevant things. The host could very well lay down the terms on which he provides accommodation to the artiste concerned. Maybe the host himself treated the artists as idols by not being vocal about the misuse of his phone, and decided to complain against them now in public advising others to not deify them.

Whatever it is, the moral of the story is - this forum is not the place for any mudslinging. We don't want to know who the black sheep are, whether they be musicians, rasikas, organizers or hosts abroad.

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 13 Apr 2009, 16:37

Srkris

Why i mentioned this is there are two sides of the coin. If artistes behave badly there are organisers who are haughty and arrogant to the core. I just wanted to emphasise the fact that there is an other side also in existence. And my other point is that 90% of the artistes dont talk here or take part in these discussions and hence much of the support from the artiste side will not be there for this topic and hence i just plunged in at the initial stages itself.

J.B

kedharam · Post by **kedharam** » 13 Apr 2009, 18:29

deleted

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Apr 2009, 18:41

Good.

Both stories told. There are travelling artists who take advantage of their sponsors and hosts; there are organisers and hosts who treat the artists badly --- and the all important "third side", there are professional artists and good organisers.

That's about it, really, isn't it?

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 13 Apr 2009, 18:43

To mridhangam:

What is it a host owes an artist?

He owes him a lift from and to the airport/train station/bus station.

He owes him a comfortable setting where he can rest before and after the concert.

He owes him meals that he himself eats.... not necessarily meals at fancy restaurants.

He owes him some way of passing time, such as taking him to local places of interest... provided it doesn't conflict with the host's job or other responsibility.

He also owes him limited amount of telephonic communication with the tour sponsor as well as his family back in India.

If a visiting artist does not get these, he can complain to the tour sponsor about his treatment at the hands of the local host.

The artist should not expect that his least wish would be carried out with alacrity by the host.

It is also imperative that the artist not hold the local host captive to his whims and fancies.

I have seen the aforementioned who refused to leave on time for the venue of the concert. No excuse was given except that the rasikas would not mind the wait once the concert began because they would be blown away by their performance. How about the fact that the janitor would be closing the auditorium at the appointed time? Would the host be right in throwing the artists out on their bums? (They were not.)

Just one recent incident in Chennai: A famous bharatha natyam artist cum movie actress was being honored at the annual function of an organization. At the appointed time, the honoree did not show up. After about fifteen minutes' of waiting (allowing for Indian Standard Time), the organizers called to find out what the hold up was. The honoree demanded that a car be sent to bring her to the venue. This is a woman with a couple of cars in her driveway. Even if she felt that she should have been taken care of by the organizers, what was the right time to bring up the issue?

If you hear about the behavior of other artists with no gauravam, it would curl your hair.... or, uncurl the curlies!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 13 Apr 2009, 19:01

I have been an overseas organiser of Carnatic concerts for around 15 years. Just as we meet many people in life, we come across many artistes. Some are people who you would like to host again and others, you would certainly have second thoughts about.

Unfortunately the patronage of Carnatic music in places like Australia and USA is not big enough otherwise artistes would merely be picked up by a limo and taken to a top hotel, then they would perform and leave. If they want to do site seeing, they do this on their own. This is basically what happens when artistes perform in some European cities.

Here (in Oz) we host artistes because the alternative (keeping them in hotels) is too expensive. Sure, there have been some unpleasant experiences but by the large the experience for the host has been a good one.

Satish · Post by **Satish** » 13 Apr 2009, 20:04

nick H wrote:Good.

...There are travelling artists who take advantage of their sponsors and hosts; there are organisers and hosts who treat the artists badly --- and the all important "third side", there are professional artists and good organisers.

If I were an artist or a knowledgeable rasika I'd say "Bhesh!" and shut up. Not being either I wish to add more...

Sunlight is the best disinfectant and in this era--the past decade plus--of easy, affordable communication, what's preventing the organizers (rasikas all; who would take up that responsibility otherwise?) from sharing these anecdotes amongst themselves so artists that behave with "gauravam" are recognized, differentiated from those without? Awareness that a sense of entitlement will have its costs will have its moderating influence on artists and organizers without "gauravam".

It's not clear however if the incidents Harimau described are (widely) prevalent today. It may have changed shape in some ways, it's likely to have decreased, but surely we can't fall into the trap of reacting to today's performers based on our experiences with yesterday's.

How much of Harimau's reaction, say to Sudha Raghunathan, is conditioned by what he experienced a decade (or more; or less) with another artist? And how much does Harimau realize for every one of his anecdotes it's likely there is an explanation (or alternate version)? Surely we can out the pompous artists (and organizers) that operate with a sense of entitlement selectively, carefully. Harimau, how about casting the net so it catches what you want to catch, without affect the entire ecosystem out there?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 13 Apr 2009, 20:11

Obligations and expectation lack dignity when you love music. Every one of us owe it to ourselves to be the best rasikas and best musicians. Rasikas opinions are opinions only

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 13 Apr 2009, 21:25

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 13 Apr 2009, 22:22

Oh the poor self-righteous tiger having to deal with croaking frogs!

I have not heard of a single office-going person who refunded paychecks for the days that they were performing below par due to a sore throat, jet-lag or plain old "off days". Do you Harimau?

It's part of the risk of organizing concerts or even attending -- that on a given day, things don't turn out as great as you expect.

As for the rest of the "stupid rants"

1. "A vast majority of artists don't care a hoot for the art". Huh?
2. 15 years ago some artist played a house concert in the same town as a hall concert. Even harimau attended it. Did you also pay your $10 for the hall concert? Whatever....
3. Some other artist ran up a phone bill. Yeah inconsiderate. Like they come in all other professions, some percentage of artists are top class jerks. Great revelation. Ho hum.
Just to put on record: I have stories form touring artists about being left in unfurnished bare rooms without a hot meal or phone connection. As mridhangam says who speaks for them on fora like these?
4. Harimau doesn't like vishamakara kannan. You'll get over it.

edited as a "sore throat" does not help the voice "soar"

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Apr 2009, 01:08

After reading all this, and having heard several stories from rasikAs and artistes in the past so many years, having witnessed uncivil behavior from both groups a few times, I think there is nothing drastically different about these situations from the ones in our every day nitty gritty life.

RasikAs are very much like artistes, except in being as proficient and creative like them in music.
Artistes are very much like the rasikAs, but they are at the mercy of rasikAs more than it is the other way round. Yet, because they are artistic, a few of them may possess whims.
Just like some among us are particular about money, some artistes are too.
The performers have more clout because they draw crowds. On the other hand, the performers are dependent on the rasikAs for their income.
As Balaji points out, how many performers are members on the forum? Even those who are on the forum are not going to speak up about their grievances. Would we bad mouth our bosses evn by the water cooler, let alone in a public forum? All right, they don't work for us, but rasikAs collectively provide livelihood to performers.
'Prima donna' behavior is not unheard of in any genre of music--even given super attention, hotel suite, first class travel, limo and such. Even with all these perks, away from their families, away from home, eating at odd hours, going without meals, being at the mercy of your hosts--can all be an ordeal to our performers.
srkris hit the nail on the head when he spoke about artistes being idols in some cases and being fought over by hosts when it comes to where they would lodge! At the end of it, there may be tales of how 'difficult' the idol was! And all these gossip morsels are good munchings in a dinner party.
When I go to a concert I want to attend, I do not say 'for all the money I paid, it was a poor performance'. We do not pay for the concert AFTER we have heard it, basing our contribution according to the merit of the concert! The same goes for the artistes. They do not
give a mediocre or half-hearted performance because it is a small town, low-paying concert. This is it. Here, both the rasikA and the artiste prove what is ideal--our mutual love for CM.
As with everything else, it is give and take. Give respect, get it back too. Courtesy works both ways. No nonsense business sense on both sides;cClear-cut explanations about an engagement; no undue expectations on either side. I can go on, but I have said enough!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 14 Apr 2009, 02:07

Arasi, I agree 100% with your views. I also want to point out that over the past few years that I have been involved in hosting/arranging the hosting, I have to say that the current crop of performers are so easy to deal with - in my daughter's words, they're 'cool' - very accomodating, have very cosmopolitan palates/tastes, and are generally a joy to host. I do not disbelieve harimau's description of the incidents he details, but I think those kinds of behavior are not very common thankfully, and over all, the joy of hosting more than compensates for some petty inconveniences.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Apr 2009, 02:56

>When I go to a concert I want to attend, I do not say 'for all the money I paid, it was a poor performance'. We do not pay for the concert AFTER we have heard it, basing our contribution according to >the merit of the concert!

Very true.

There is another related dimension to this though it may not mean much for these isolated cases of organizers suffering in the hands of artists. Coolkarni had quoted his dad's saying before: When you pay 10 bucks for a great book, you are at best paying a token amount. The real value is much more. If its true value is only ten bucks to you, then it is not valuable at all to you'. ( <-- my paraphrase )

To a significant extent, it applies to CM concerts. There is a big difference between price of admission vs value when it comes to classical fine arts like CM.

Also, it is just a blessing that the cost/price structure works out the way it does. A group of top artists who had spent decades perfecting their skills pay a visit to where we live and we get to listen to them for ten bucks. A lot of people probably spend much more in getting to the concert ( baby-sitter, dress, travel, eats etc. ) than the concert itself.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 14 Apr 2009, 03:42

The initiator of the first post seems to be burnt out due to his noble work to the community and perhaps he believes this is the platform one can vent out. Inspite of all his irritable experiences, I am sure he will continue to serve the community in the interest of music we dearly love.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 14 Apr 2009, 05:36

When the thought enters the rasika's mind that music is a commodity and he/she is a consumer, then he/she will start looking for his/her money's worth.
As arasi said, many a time, what you a feel/enjoy AFTER a good concert IS MUCH MORE THAN WHAT YOU FELT AT THE CONCERT!. For that feeling/bliss ,are we going to pay royalty to the artist?
It is inevitable that some artists behave in a manner which leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
It is true of the hosts, rasikas also.
As rasikas, for us, the art is more important than the artist.
We respect the art in him/her, even if we do not respect the artist as such.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 14 Apr 2009, 07:06

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Apr 2009, 09:38

A few years ago, Sanjay did the same in Krishna Gana Sabha. 'Many are standing outside. There are empty seats. Why don't you ask them to come in?', he asked. A good day for a number of rasikAs...

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 15 Apr 2009, 03:32

VK RAMAN wrote:The initiator of the first post seems to be burnt out due to his noble work to the community and perhaps he believes this is the platform one can vent out. Inspite of all his irritable experiences, I am sure he will continue to serve the community in the interest of music we dearly love.

VK, totally true....in spite of the odd irritating experiences, people like Harimau, will be out there hosting the next concert, because they love music and they do what they do, for the sheer love of doing it. If NA is experiencing such a good harvest of good young musicians it is because of the efforts of people like him working hard promoting our music in such far off places. May their good work continue. cheers

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 15 Apr 2009, 18:09

Overall I think the main reason is poor funding at the remote location venues.

A simple average s/w engineer (passed MCA with 70% marks) NOW gets a
$35 perdiem per day,
individual (1 bedroom) accomodation on actuals,
and a rental car.
If he doesnot have license, then any travel is on actuals.

I remember in 1990, we were provided with
$100 perdiem per day in Dallas
with a rental car
And we take care of accomodation staying with multiple people to reduce our cost.

This is the remote location cost apart from the salary at India.

If an average guy can get this, the top class vidwan should get lot more.
By putting him in a localites house, making him travel in organisers car takes
away the privacy of the artist. What Harimau explined in his first mail is
an unprofessional treatment of the artist at the expense of saving money for the
local funding sabha.

And I donot expect an artist's basic human nature any different from a
common man. He need not be an example citizen. Definitely his skill is extraordinary.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 04 May 2009, 00:12

As usual, we have clueless folks weighing in comparing code coolies to musicians.

OK, so a code coolie gets a per diem, a hotel room and a car.

The code coolie gets his two weeks of hotel accommodation (after which he has to find himself a reasonably priced apartment), two weeks of car rental or taxi fare and a per diem because those are all factored in by his employer when quoting a rate to the contracting company in the US. And he will be spending 6 months or longer on the contract so that his Indian masters can be confident that this initial investment will pay off. If in fact the contract gets cancelled, most American companies are very reasonable about reimbursing costs.

Compare that to HCL Technologies asking its sales manager to work out of his bedroom while trying to drum up business. Don't believe it? Ask around.

I can name any number of $2 billion companies such as HCL, Infosys, WIPRO asking that their sales managers work out of their homes. Is Dallas a new territory for HCL? Why should a new manager transferred to Dallas asked to work out of his home? Why won't HCL pay for a nice office with conference rooms for customer meetings and a secretary to answer the phone?

You can go to Edison, NJ and walk into a shared services building where a single secretary answers the phones for all tenants, there is a shared Xerox machine and coffee center, and find every Indian software company - at least the ones that have graduated out of working out of bedrooms - pretending to have a real office.

When an artist comes to the US, what is the guarantee that there will be enough programs to pay for all the expenses?

As it is, sponsors find it difficult to make ends meet. Most generically named South Indian Fines Arts Associations are lucky to have $2,000 in the bank at the end of a year. Most have been run at a loss for years and nobody has paid back all those past office-bearers for the money that they had to spend out of pocket.

Your average code coolie has no compunction about going to the nearest MickeyD's and chomping down on a cheeseburger. Would your average musician settle for anything other than a meal of sambhar, rasam, koottu, and appalam?

rajaglan blames the sponsors for not treating the musicians on par with code coolies. But let a musician be seen eating an egg and there would be enough of you saying, "Apacharam, with the mouth that ate an egg, he is singing of Rama and Krishna! What has the world come to? Kali kaalam!"

You would like the sponsors to put the musicians up at a hotel? Fine, who is going to be running room service with Indian food? You? No, you would be seen nowhere near anyplace where some actual work might be involved.

<Obnoxious statement edited out by Admin>.

So, find out the facts before you start writing crap!

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 04 May 2009, 00:22

A famous dancer known for her movie roles as well showed up in the US for a series of dance programs.

For her last program in Houston, a few hours before the program she demanded of the local sponsor that she be paid an additional $4,000 before she would go on stage. She even concocted a story that she was gypped by the tour organizer of this amount of money.

The program was being held on a weekend and there was no way any person could even go to a bank and get the cash, which is what she demanded, for her. When asked if she could wait until the program began so that she could be paid out of the proceeds of the ticket sales, she refused.

The local sponsor called his friends and raised $4,000 in cash and gave it to her before she would perform.

<Mod action: Inflamatory sentences ( that are possibly not directly related to the topic ) are quarantined for review by admin. No further discussion on this mod action will be allowed here. Please communicate with the admin by email for any such discussions>

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 04 May 2009, 14:55

It's quite annoying to find someone visiting this forum occasionally, posting very provocative and offensive stuff here, then vanishing - only to return here after a gap, to do the same thing again. I am not sure what the value-add is to this forum of such activity.

Repeating references to 'code coolie' and the use of the word 'crap' we can do without. I hope mods step in and remove these from the posts above.

Finally: why the 'anticipatory bail' type of comment by mod above? So you allow someone to go ahead and write such offensive stuff, but nobody can respond to it?

<Mod: Ragam-Thalam, we have communicated in general and to you specifically not to discuss any mod action in the thread. Please take it up with the admin by email or using the Alert Moderator button. In this case, you have misunderstood. The anticipatory bail is for discussions on the mod action itself since we do not want that to be the focus of discussion here. We regret adding this eye-sore of a big note here since this is precisely what we strive to avoid and in fact the main reason for the above note in the first place. The admin/mods have the discretion to edit and/or delete such posts on mod action without any further communicaton/explanation/apology to the poster. No offense is meant by such edits or deletions. The policy of the forum is any discussion/gripe about the mod action or alerting the mods about other posts need to be conducted by email or using the Alert Moderator feature>

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 May 2009, 16:02

Let's paraphrase post #30

Somebody went from country to another and behaved very badly causing potential financial and social problems and threatened not to fulfil their contract

Not much help, really, to know that, is it?

In the absence of names, the post is a heap of hot air.

If names are named, then others will get upset --- and probably this is not the place to launch an attack on an artist for something they might have done in the past.

I love a good controversy. This is not a good one

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 04 May 2009, 16:40

harimau wrote: Your average code coolie has no compunction about going to the nearest MickeyD's and chomping down on a cheeseburger. Would your average musician settle for anything other than a meal of sambhar, rasam, koottu, and appalam?

rajaglan blames the sponsors for not treating the musicians on par with code coolies. But let a musician be seen eating an egg and there would be enough of you saying, "Apacharam, with the mouth that ate an egg, he is singing of Rama and Krishna! What has the world come to? Kali kaalam!"

You would like the sponsors to put the musicians up at a hotel? Fine, who is going to be running room service with Indian food? You? No, you would be seen nowhere near anyplace where some actual work might be involved.

So, find out the facts before you start writing crap!

I think it is you who is writing crap here.

Indian musicians who travel to Europe are usually invited by Western organisations there. They are paid handsomely, they are put up in good hotels usually in the city/downtown area. Their food is provided by the hotel they are staying in and they manage with what they get. If they want to do sightseeing then they take a tour on their own. All this made possible by the decent renumeration they get in the first place.

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 04 May 2009, 21:10

harimau wrote:As usual, we have clueless folks weighing in comparing code coolies to musicians.

OK, so a code coolie gets a per diem, a hotel room and a car.

.
.
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rajaglan blames the sponsors for not treating the musicians on par with code coolies. But let a musician be seen eating an egg and there would be enough of you saying, "Apacharam, with the mouth that ate an egg, he is singing of Rama and Krishna! What has the world come to? Kali kaalam!"

You would like the sponsors to put the musicians up at a hotel? Fine, who is going to be running room service with Indian food? You? No, you would be seen nowhere near anyplace where some actual work might be involved.

In fact, on the day a concert is to be held, if there is theater showing "The Whole Nine Yards" (nope, that movie does not involve madisar mamis <Edited by mod>), you would be going to the movie.

So, find out the facts before you start writing crap!

Except the proper nouns in the above posting, everything else is purest form of JUNK and junk thoughts .

Akshara · Post by **Akshara** » 04 May 2009, 21:27

Somewhere down the line, looks like Harimau is having the last laugh always...by stirring up a 'controversial' topic, why its in quotes is because the way he begins it with verbose arrows, which nudge and provoke and elicit response,while he is suddenly missing but the imbroglio continues, and its a while before all of us realise that we could do without this topic.

Having seen and experienced both sides of the coin, please give both sides the benefit of doubt..that people, situations and things have evolved. We have some exemplary behaviour from senior artistes, for whom the Orgnazations/Organizers are willing to pay any amount, we have gushing stories from those who have hosted them, we have absolutely overwhelmed rasikas writing of their experiences. We also have such fine conduct from upcoming artists, such magnanimity on the part of organizers to accomodate and uplift them and an encouraging rasika crowd.

Why should one mudsling in total and overshadow all the above complimentary situations. The very act of initiating and funding on the part of the organizers and traveling, leaving their homes, taking care of their health and voice amidst different climatic conditions by the artists...these are efforts and contributions done in mutual benefit for the sake of art, for the sake of traversing our culture across and beyond.

There certainly needs to be some material benefit for both sides...life is all about living and sustenance, so be it. The degree varies under different scenarios and am sure there would be some reason (as one member in this thread rightly pointed out). Are we here to continously bicker or are we here to also highlight the positives and probably think of way in which 'disturbing' situations can be gently communicated to those whom we feel are contaminating the environment? Then there is a purpose in such rampage. Then it means that the forum members are gathering to discuss so that we can do our bit in making the world a better place.

Continued mudslinging and accusing will only put the stakeholders off and like another member in this thread put it, they would just go about in their own way and we will do nothing but rant parallely.

Am sure that much could be done to continue hearing great Indian music in all corners of the world.

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 05 May 2009, 07:33

Mohan is abso. right -- most Indian concerts in Europe are organized with a professional fee, hotel stay etc. and "manage with bread and pizza" food arrangements. People pay a respectable ticket price to get in. Artists tolerate the food and feel happy about the interest in CM being evinced by native Europeans who are the organizers.
In north America the scene is different. 90% of the concerts are organized by emigrant S Indians. They still have the memory of paying Rs. 10, 25, 100 or (gasp) 300 in the mylapore sabha and have a stereotypical image of a typical vidwan's lifestyle -- simple panchakacham wearing pious vidwans entering the M.A. by cycle rickshaw, tambura in peril of breakage, etc. The audience also comprises of 95-98% emigrants -- from "code coolie" to the settled in NA for 3-decades / 2 or 3-car garage house-owning "kAn-sert" going professional. Who wouldn't pay as much for a CM concert as a movie. So the organizers struggle to sell even $10 tickets. Even a respectable strength in the audience earns them barely enough to pay the artist, leave alone fly them into town, accomodate them in hotels and give them some "space".

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 05 May 2009, 08:12

Asian Indians in U.S are no different from Indians in India - sabAsh.