Dr. Shrikaanth K Murthy

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 15 May 2006, 01:32

DRS, Could you please explain asaveri a bit.--

Lecdem on asAvEri

http://rapidshare.de/files/20465278/Lec ... y.wma.html

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 May 2006, 03:26

WOW! What a delightful treat. Asaveri was indeed a mystery raagam for me with the weird description of its avrOhana as also the bhASAngatvam. Thank you so much for the beautiful clarification of the trishruti riShabha. very well demonstrated. I have to listen to them more carefully to get the complete benefit from the lecdem.

DRS

You are a great teacher! You need to do more such lecdems for us. We are very very grateful to you!!

Did SS compose in Asaveri?
ArNAcala kavi's 'sriramachandranukku jaya mangaLam ...' was a very lovely asaveri mangaLam.
Pl cite other examples....

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 15 May 2006, 09:11

DRS
Thank you very much for providing a great lecdem on asAvErI!!
Now my doubts are clear..

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 15 May 2006, 14:26

DRS thanks a ton for that lec-dem.
Now your lecdem explains Trisruthi so well
Cheers

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 May 2006, 03:50

--do you have/know of any song that talks of the any of the individial battles of the Bharatha War - Abhimanyu's death, Satyaki-Bhurisravas, and the sort... other than Oothukkadu's Kalinga Narthanam, are there any other carnatic songs that are based on heroics in the mahabharata? --

Welcome ninja.
I am not aware of songs dealing with battles in the bhArata.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 May 2006, 04:15

Did SS compose in Asaveri?
ArNAcala kavi's 'sriramachandranukku jaya mangaLam ...' was a very lovely asaveri mangaLam.
Pl cite other examples....

SS has not composed any in asAvEri. I wish he had. He would have excelled in it. Other mangaLas in the rAga, Lakshman can provide a list iIam sure. Only if he sees this thread

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 May 2006, 04:25

jayamagaLam by A.P.Haran

I ferreted this out from the magalam thread in the General section. Here is the link to that thread, and to a list of magaLas in Lakshman's list

http://freepgs.com/carnatic/viewtopic.php?t=83

meena · Post by **meena** » 16 May 2006, 05:19

DRS

i listenend to the lecdem very nice/informative, thanku
If u take up all ragas that would be gt

CML/DRS
as suggested i have taken the liberty and added pics to DRS ramayana text.

DRS
pl. let me know if its ok.

UPDATED with pics: Story of rAmAyaNa by DRS

http://rapidshare.de/files/20490541/rAm ... S.doc.html

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 May 2006, 05:34

Thanks Meena for your appreciation.

As for the pictures, they are simply beautiful. Thanks for finding them.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 May 2006, 07:54

Fantastic Lec-dem on asAvEri, DRS! Thanks very much!! That is very educational. My prior vague way of relating to asAvEri was 'if it sounds like Thodi and Dhanyasi but if it sounds like neither one fully then it is asAvEri'

( about which you talk about at the end of the lecture ) but now I can attempt to get a direct idea on asAvEri.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 May 2006, 09:03

Meena
That is fantastic! Very nice pictures tastefully chosen! Thank you very much!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 May 2006, 09:12

DRS

asAveri means na sAveri (not sAveri) which is simplistic. There must be a reason for that name. Any ideas?

meena · Post by **meena** » 16 May 2006, 09:13

DRS/cml

thanku

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 May 2006, 18:48

Thanks DRS: I d/led the lec dem late yesterday and just hear it. The forum should really be thinking along the lines of 'dorakunA ituvaNTi sEvA'!

Isn't there a saying about the banks of the kAvErI and asAvErI (or is it sAvErI? I am sure you/CML will know it)?

Ravi

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 16 May 2006, 19:32

Sankar
I think thats about Kaveri and Saveri(They say that they are proud posessions of South India or it is tamilians?)

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 16 May 2006, 21:31

--do you have/know of any song that talks of the any of the individial battles of the Bharatha War - Abhimanyu's death, Satyaki-Bhurisravas, and the sort... other than Oothukkadu's Kalinga Narthanam, are there any other carnatic songs that are based on heroics in the mahabharata? --
Welcome ninja.
I am not aware of songs dealing with battles in the bhArata.

DRS Sir,

Thanks for the info.

I wonder, is it because the basis of the story is esssentially secular?

and, that was an excellent lecdem. I think I will eventually understand CM, after all!!!!!! Thanks!!

Cheers
ninja

ninjathegreat · Post by **ninjathegreat** » 16 May 2006, 21:41

CML/DRS
as suggested i have taken the liberty and added pics to DRS ramayana text.

DRS
pl. let me know if its ok.

UPDATED with pics: Story of rAmAyaNa by DRS

http://rapidshare.de/files/20490541/rAm ... S.doc.html

Excellent pics!

On a related note, my grandmother used to tell us an amusing story about her childhood. They were a huge family of 11 children, plus cousins living with them, and a bunch of relatives at any given time. So, the kids apparently used to put up plays for the elders. They had a cook who used to compose songs and set them to music. In one of the plays, my grandmother was Dasaratha; and the play was to portray Dasaratha's grief after he tells Rama to leave. Dasaratha (my grandmother) is striken to the ground by grief. Kaikeyi cames with food for Dasaratha, and he was supposed to strike it of fher hand, saying "chI chi pO po en kaNmunnirundhu pAvi dushTa kaikEyI!".. Well, the play being held close to dinner time, my grandma decided why throw away the food and started eating!!! Kind of destroyed the "grief" setting, according to her!!

Just thought I would share this... Don't know why..

Cheers
Ninja

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 May 2006, 21:43

'nathikaLukku kAvEri pATTukku sAvEri'
(for rivers it is kAvEri and for singing it is sAvEri)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 May 2006, 21:52

ninja
If she was innovative she should have taken the role of 'kooni' and as Dasharatha rejected the food exclaimed"
'enakku ini santhOShaM! Bharatthanukku paTTaM! naan vayiRu poDaikka SappiDuvEn'
(I am now very happy; Bharatha is to be crowned; I I can eat to my heart's content!)

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 16 May 2006, 22:04

Very nice joke...

CML
You have been very funny today all over the forum!!!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 May 2006, 22:50

asAveri means na sAveri (not sAveri) which is simplistic. There must be a reason for that name. Any ideas?

I am very cautious about interpreting names of rAgas in the way you suggest. Looking at it simply as sanskrit words with no corruption w=is simplistic yes. but in all likelihood erroneous.

Both are ancient rakti rAgas. Both asAvEri and sAvEri have same ArOhaNa(discounting for the caturaSuti RShabha in asAvEri) but that is where the similarity ends. That is not reason to call asAvEri as "not sAvEri".

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 May 2006, 22:51

Ravi
"nadigaLil sAvEri rAgattil sAvEri"

Perhaps to parody on this saying, tyAgarAja composed a kRti praining kAvEri in asAvEri- "sAri veDalina I kAvErini jUDare"

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 May 2006, 22:56

I wonder, is it because the basis of the story is esssentially secular?

Possibly. Songs on such themes will fit nicely in an opera or in dance. But CM is not all about devotion to God. It also deals with philosophical content a lot. It is more about spiriuality than religion.

If specific battles in the bhArata (not the entire war as such) had philosophical import, composers would have already sung about it. Also, kRShNa was not there in these specific battles.

venkatpv · Post by **venkatpv** » 16 May 2006, 23:19

TNS sang a pallavi in saveri with the words "rageshu saveri thireshu kaveri uchitamu"

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 16 May 2006, 23:39

Thats interesting venkat. Thanks for the info. As the pallavi is in sanskrit, I think the last word is ucitam(not ucitamu)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 May 2006, 01:07

pushpEShu jAthI puruShEShu viShNu
nArIShu rambhA nagarEShu kAnchi
nadIShu kAvEri rAgEShu sAvEri
gAyakEShu subbulakShmi (bhava) vAggEyakEShu shrIkAnta
kAvyEShu rAmAyaNa kavi kALidAsaH

The first two famous lines were responsible for the cALukya king pulikEsi to launch a vicious attack on south; the third line is famous among CM folks, the fourth is my personal opinion and the last is a universal truth!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 17 May 2006, 02:51

NICE!
Ravi

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 17 May 2006, 14:02

Wow CML

Nice Poem...

May be we all can take some sanskrit lessons from you..

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 17 May 2006, 22:02

Word to word meaning
sundara kANDa
rAga saurAShTra; (khaNda jAti) aTa tALa

Sanka- doubt/hesitation; illAde/illAda- without; anila sUnuva- son of the wind God/hanumanta;
Saradhi- ocean; phAra- to leap/jump;
huri heppinavu~n- him who inspired/urged/filled with courage;
lanka iDi- all of lankA/totally; kallOlu- havoc/ravage;
paNNi- doing/ wreaking;
swarAShTru- own country; vandavana- him who returned;
appinavu~n- him who embraced;
jinka- deer/fawn-like; jAnakiku^- to jAnaki; Ana- happend/occurred; aTTuLi- atrocity;
cittu- mind; naTTu^- piercing/taking to heart; aDaku- composure; tappinavu~n- him who lost;
sankEtamAna- that which was the token of recognition;
cUDAmaNi- crest jewel;
sOnki- touching; savari- caressing/rubbing; edeku^- to his heart/chest; appinavu~n- him who hugged.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 17 May 2006, 22:25

Sanketa=sanketi mudre?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 17 May 2006, 22:28

DRS,
My attempt at a running summary:
He (rAma) is without doubt the one that inspired hanUmAn to realize his potential and jump 100 yOjanAs across the ocean, destroy the kingdom of Lanka, and return to rAma, lakshmaNa and sugrIva. Embracing hanumAn on the successful completion of his mission, he (rAma) is the one that lost his composure on hearing about the atrocities heaped on doe-like jAnakI, and seeing her cUDAmaNI.

I have an old tape somewhere in my basement with Smt. Bambay Jayashree singing AK's 'kaNDEn! kaNDEn! kaNDEn! sItaiyai kaNDEn rAghavA!' in bhAgEshrI. I will unearth it, digitize it and post within the next couple of days - unless someone beats me to it....

I love the way he describes sItA's wan complexion: 'pani kAla vArijam (white lotus) pOla niram pUshi'....

Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 17 May 2006, 22:54

Very nice meaning Ravi. Adding on to it at the end,

"him who caressed and embraced to his heart, the cUDAmaNi brought by hanumanta".

rAma was extremely attached to sItA and was in extreme anguish when he lost sItA
Looking forward to kaNDEn kaNDEn

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 17 May 2006, 22:58

Sanketa=sanketi mudre?

Good catch suji. This is what I expect. :cheesy:

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 May 2006, 23:38

Here is the MIDI converted
http://rapidshare.de/files/20702158/Sou ... W.wav.html
with of course the 21 Gun salute

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 May 2006, 00:00

DRS

One has to be colour blind not to notice 'sankEta' in red letters in the lyrics

The Adya and antya praasas are very nice and fitting!

I will reserve my questions on the raga prayogams after you post the raga lakShaNam!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 18 May 2006, 00:03

CML
Iam not posting the rAgalakShaNa. will take specific questions. For the rAga lakShaNa, refer to the oDeyar thread.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 May 2006, 01:31

DRS

Just a reminder that in the JC thread under
SrI dakShiNAmUrtE namOstutE
rAga- saurAShTra
We had extensive discussions but no raga lakShaNa discussion!
(at least I don't have it!)
I need to confirm the aro/avro as well as the bhAShAngatvam!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 18 May 2006, 01:38

DRS,
I do not see any discussion on saurashtra except the dakShiNAmUrtE kriti.
it was an excercise going thru the thread

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 18 May 2006, 01:51

Ok
saurAShTra is a janya of the 17th mELa- chAyAvati/ sUryakAnta
scale

SR1G3MPD2N3S* | S*N3DN2,DPMGRS ||

It is a rakti rAga. Needless to say, some phrases do not strictly follow the scale:- "PMD,", "SRM", "PMR,". Previously, it was placed under 15th mELa, mAyA mALavagauLa and Suddha dhaivata was used. Now, Suddhadhaivata does not make an appearance at all in this rAga. It evokes bhakti rasa.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 May 2006, 04:27

Thanks DRS
That answers most of the queries!
SRJ gives aro as SR1G3MPMD2N3S* which would legitimize the PMD prayOgam. He also mentions that the kaisiki nishadam is used rarely. You have used the N2,DP liberally but effectively. It sparkles in the ciTTasvaram. I was also wondering about the SRM and PMR prayOgams. You mention they are exceptionally allowed. Is shuddha dhaivatam used at all as an anya swara?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 18 May 2006, 04:40

CML
N2 is not all that rare. It comes almost always when descending from S*. Avoiding this swara would leave little difference between sUryakAnta and saurAShTra. SRJ's scale would legitimize PMD but throw "PDN" out of the window. In such cases, always revert to the simpler scale. And bottom line is "Do not force a rAga into a straitjacket of mUrchane". Accept rAga as a living entity with its own form and that scales are only symbolic reprsentations. You must get out of the mindset to know scales for rAgas and trying to fit each and every phrase into it. That is an exercise in futility guaranteed to give dissatisfaction and frustration(both to the teacher and the taught).

And I did not say PMR and SRM are "exceptional". That is a misleading term. These prayOgas do occur and are not so uncommon. You will see an abundance of such prayOgas that dont fit into their scales(strictly) even in tODi, SankarAbharaNa or kharaharapriya. But that is as things should be. Scales do have flexibilities.

And I havent come across D1 in saurAShTra of today.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 May 2006, 05:39

Thanks for the clarifications and the sobering comment on the obsession for the scales in the ragas! Why is sauraShTram more popular than the parent SUryakaatam itself! I am recollecting your initial statement about the 'mangaLa ragas'. SaurAShTram is used both as a commencing and ending auspicious raga an honour not accorded to the parent raga or to many other ragas!
Is there any difference in the way this raga was handled between T vs MD? Is there an RTP available?

By the by does this raga have anything to do with saurAShTra? You have used it as svarAShTra; any special significance?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 May 2006, 05:47

DRS

I believe originally the presence of D! led SaurAShTram being janya of mayamalagoula. It is now forbidden to avoid the confusion!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 18 May 2006, 06:00

It is difficult to say if T and MD handled the rAga differently for the reasons you have already mentioned. D1 is not sung at all today, be it MD or T's kRti. Subbarama Dikshitar dutifully mentions about D1 and its prayOgas in the SSP. Going by what he says, D2 is the anyaswara and is used "exceptionally".

Theories do exist connecting saurAShTra to the region in Gujarat. while it is definitlt possible, no concrete evidence exists save the name AFAIK. And no svarAShTra is hanumanta's swarAShTra, not mine(unless it happened in the prehistoric past).

FYI sankEtis are believed to have migrated from North from the region of narmada basin before coming to the kAvEri basin(i.e even before we came to T.Nadu). No historic proof is there as this is a prehistoric event. But sankEtis pay their respects to narmadA as part of the sandhyAvandane. This is not seen in other comunities.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 May 2006, 06:12

Of course
'narmadA sindhu kAvEri jakE 'smin sannidhiM kuru' is part of every kalasha puja.
Could you quote the line in sandhyavandanam that relates to narmada?
How old is the term 'sankEti' itself? Does it occur in the sanskrit literature?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 18 May 2006, 06:28

Could you quote the line in sandhyavandanam that relates to narmada?

narmadAyai namaH prAtaH |
narmadAyai namO niSiH |
namOstu narmadE tubhyam |
trAhimAm vihasarpataH ||

ityOnnnamaH

How old is the term 'sankEti' itself? Does it occur in the sanskrit literature?

Dont know CML. Sufficient research has not been done in that direction. "sankEti" as a community and language is mentioned in
Rev|| F. Kittel's kannaDa-English dictionary of nearly 2 centuries ago. It also occurs in the various census reports of that time. "sankEti" as pertaining to community is recorded in the mammoth Tamizh dictionary brought out by the Madras University. As regards sanskrit literature, Iam not aware. You may be in a better position to comment on that. If you do find a reference, please post and I will be grateful.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 May 2006, 06:48

Good

Those lines are part of our sandhyavandanam greetings facing North. I have never been told we have any sankEti connections. In fact it is the standard mantra taught for many SI brahmins. I had queried my AcArya why we particularly pay tribute to narmada and never got an answer! Again seeking protection from snakes at the sametime is somewhat puzzling. Is it possible that the exodus took place because of attacks from venemous snakes. Very interesting! I will think about it and also look actively at Sanskrit literature. There must be a deeper meaning to the word 'sankEti' granting its sanskrit origin and since it certainly is not of Tamil origin. Now not to interrupt Ramayana we will pursue the discussions (maybe language thread..) after we conclude Rama PaTTabhiShEkam! We may have a larger audience, hopefully...

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 18 May 2006, 06:50

Thats interesting CML. But no. The other kannaDa brAhmaNa communities do not say this mantra. So I guess we share it with Iyers.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 18 May 2006, 06:54

And even among Iyers, only the vaDamas says it. So says kanci paramAcArya I quote

There is one proof to show that "Vadamar" originally belonged to the Narmada valley. Only they, among the Brahmins[in the South], recite the following verse in the sandhyavandana.; it is a prayer for protection from snakes.

Narmadayai namah pratah Narmadayai namo nisi

Namostu Narmade tubhyam pahi mam visa-sarpatah

Heres the link

http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part6/chap11.htm

Looks like he was not aware of sankEtis too saying this mantra. But he was very fluent in sankEti and used to converse freely in the language.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 18 May 2006, 07:06

Way back when, I was taught that too...It was buried very deep in the recesses of my memory! So yes, Iyers (at least some) also say it...
Gives new meaning to my mother's claim of being vaDa dESattu vaDamA..LOL.
Ravi