Carnatic music is an open systems architecture???---An artic

[eppramod]

An article written by Guitar fame Prasanna

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... XfxM=&SEO=
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The saptaswara existentialism


Muthuswamy Dikshitar
Prasanna
First Published : 19 Apr 2009 12:04:00 PM IST
Last Updated : 19 Apr 2009 09:32:16 AM IST

When Muthuswamy Dikshitar carnaticised the British Anthem God Save the Queen into Santatam Paahimam or brought in unmistakable Hindustani meends into south Indian classical compositions like Neelotpalambikayam in the raga Purvagowla, I am pretty sure the reading on the ‘innovatometers’ of the early 19th century must have been "peak"

[srikant1987]

Well, in physics, there are ways to judge any new theory that comes in. Barring computational difficulties, relativistic mechanics gives a better picture of things than classical mechanics. You can do impersonal experiments to demonstrate your point.

Music is more personal, but ... maybe how a three-year-old finds some music is a good measure of its qualities.

[cacm]

To be technical & general about it Quantum Mechanics is needed for things at atomic-small-levels - & Classical mechanics works for larger levels. The theory of everything (TOE) eluded even Einstein & theories like String Theory are still to be proven.....VKV

[harimau]

The only two instruments depicted with the Gods of India are the bamboo flute and the veena.

All other instruments are foreign to Indian music and should be given grudging acceptance, not overwhelming approval.

The only way Saraswathi is going to play the guitar is if she dresses in hot pants and a halter top.

Prasanna can either learn to play the veena or be known forever as a part of the fringe element in music who has to earn his living through the film world. Any amount of nonsense about "open systems architecture" is not going to sway the knowledgeable.

Saxophone, mandolin, slide guitar, guitar, harmonica, etc., have the same place in Carnatic music as the kazoo or the xylophone.

PS. Prasanna should play abhangs on the guitar to try and improve his popularity. He may succeed with the Mylapore mamas and mamis!

[arasi]

Or inspire the mamas and mamis to 'play' the guitar...
Honestly, Harimau

[sbala]

Very nice article. Thanks Pramod.

[sampoorna]

> Well, in physics, there are ways to judge any new theory that comes in. Barring computational difficulties,
> relativistic mechanics gives a better picture of things than classical mechanics. You can do impersonal
> experiments to demonstrate your point.
> Music is more personal, but ... maybe how a three-year-old finds some music is a good measure of its qualities.

Just some thoughts .... more to clarify my own thought process when I read the excerpt above ....

Whether it is music or physics, at a low level, one can do impersonal experiments to quantify or assess the
"correctness". However, as one goes deeper, the ability to take the observer out of the picture becomes
more and more difficult. That was the difficulty faced even in physics when going towards quantum mechanics.
The books Web of Life by Capra and Brighter than a Thousand Suns by Jungk (and many others of course)
explain the interconnectedness and the awe faced by the early quantum physicists upon their discovery.
So it depends on both the observer (rasika) and the observed (vidwan), eventually going towards the
same goal of melding the mind into that which is being observed (music).

We can discover the beauty of physics or mathematics in the same way we can for music. However, for
physics or mathematics, it requires rigorous training and understanding the rules before one can appreciate
the beauty. For music the beauty can be appreciated intutively (without knowing any rules), but it still needs
to be delivered while following some basic rules/protocols. The open architecture suggestion seems like
a good analogy. It would be inetersting to see what the various layers are and where the flexibility
to change is allowed.

Narayana,
Sampoorna.

[sureshvv]

PS. Prasanna should play abhangs on the guitar to try and improve his popularity. He may succeed with the Mylapore mamas and mamis!

No. You should re-read the article after doubling your morning laxative dosage. You may become sufficiently loosened up!

[harimau]

PS. Prasanna should play abhangs on the guitar to try and improve his popularity. He may succeed with the Mylapore mamas and mamis!

No. You should re-read the article after doubling your morning laxative dosage. You may become sufficiently loosened up!

You have just proved that the wrong end of your alimentary canal is open.

Do suggest to the locals who are building a temple that you would like to see Saraswathi depicted not as veena-pustaka-dharini but as guitar-music-notation-dharini. Let us see how far that suggestion flies.

There ought to be limits to which one wants to stretch ancient arts to accommodate modern sensibilities.

New vistas in music are explored by popular music and film music. Guitar Prasanna is right in employing his talents in film music. He just needs to stop telling others that classical music needs to be morphed into something it should not be just so that he can get recognition as a classical musician.

The classical music marketplace has decided how much it is willing to tolerate guitar as a medium for classical music. In a music season which boasts of 2,000 concerts in December and January, I would be surprised if guitar is featured in 10 concerts; that is one half of one percent.

Prasanna needs to accept the vote of the marketplace and walk away with his guitar to the nearest film studio where he can and does make a far better living than the average classical musician.

As to Deekshithar writing lyrics to the tune of "God Save the Queen", that was done when he was a youth living in Manali not after he learnt classical music from his guru in Benares.

Deekshithar was not a revolutionary in musical terms. In fact, he represents a continuity in musical tradition as his compositions are based on the then prevailing standards for raga lakshana which was Venkatamakhin's asampurna mela paddhati.

[vasanthakokilam]

The only two instruments depicted with the Gods of India are the bamboo flute and the veena.
All other instruments are foreign to Indian music and should be given grudging acceptance, not overwhelming approval.
The only way Saraswathi is going to play the guitar is if she dresses in hot pants and a halter top.

That is quite an ignorant stereotype of guitar players but leaving that aside, what is the status of nagaswaram, jaladarangam etc. in your opinion?

[uday_shankar]

There ought to be limits to which one wants to stretch ancient arts to accommodate modern sensibilities.

And who sets these "limits"?

Anything that's intensely felt, genuine, deep and is expressed with great love is good art.

Nothing needs to be "preserved" by force, including classical music. If people's spiritual seriousness is "preserved", all good things will be preserved automatically. And the "preservation" will be a dynamic and live one, not a dumb automatonish one.

One of the great innovations of the last century was the revival of the old idea of a "slide vina" aka gotuvadyam aka chitravina. The idea has existed in ancient times but if Shri Sakharama Rao had not experimented with a little piece of wood on a tampura, the instrument may not have been revived in modern times. Hd did and the rest is history - we have one of the most exquisite instruments of Indian classical music and an exponent who is a definining paradigm of Carnatic music.

Innovations do not usually attract a large crowd from among the cultural detritus of Mylapore and Mambalam. Or it appears, San Deigo, or wherever the heck Harimau is from . The great violinist L Shankar was a pioneer in melding polyphonic themes with Carnatic music. His recording of ragamalika swarams in a Savitri piece in 1980 is a high point in musical innovation so far matched by few other Carnatic musicians. But such ideas seem beyond the comprehension of the average Carnatic "connoisseur" of Mylapore Mambalam or San Deigo. But who cares?! The people who comprehend it are lucky and enjoy it, others carp about it and life goes on.

[arasi]

Uday,
Words fail me. Hope you can visualize my ear-to-ear grin of approval

[arasi]

By the way, is nAradA considered divine enough--so that his tambUrA too can be included in the list?

[Always_Evolving]

There ought to be limits to which one wants to stretch ancient arts to accommodate modern sensibilities.

And who sets these "limits"?

Why, Harimau of course! Don't you know he is the ultimate arbiter of what is good art and what is not?

Nothing, not one jot of substantive critique of the original article was seen in his post. The only point seen was that Harimau doesn't like the guitar and also has opinions on what Prasanna "should" do to get recognition as a Classical musician. It doesn't seem to me that the latter is desperate for recognition at all from the likes of Harimau!

Hot pants?!! Dead give-away that one is stuck in some 60s-70s paradigm.

[arasi]

Always_Evolving,
Let us not overlook 'retro' in fashion statements

[vainika]

By the way, is nAradA considered divine enough--so that his tambUrA too can be included in the list?

Not to question nArada's divinity, but his instrument appears to have more mundane, and decidedly non-subcontinental, roots - in the family of long-necked lutes originating in central Asia. These lutes, some fretted and others fretless, include the Sumerian pandur, Persian tanbūr, Kurdish tembûr, Baghdad tunbūr, Uzbek dombura, and Tatar dumbira.

[arasi]

Ramki,
So, Narada chose a mere drone of an intrument. Was it because he was not as divine as others? Or, was it because he was fooled into thinking that 'imported' was better than homegrown?

[vasanthakokilam]

Or his boss Hari forgot to warn him on the faux pas

[uday_shankar]

Not to question nArada's divinity, but his instrument appears to have more mundane, and decidedly non-subcontinental, roots in the family of long-necked lutes originating in central Asia. These lutes, some fretted and others fretless, include the Sumerian pandur, Persian tanbūr, Kurdish tembûr, Baghdad tunbūr, Uzbek dombura, and Tatar dumbira.

Excellent ! Nothing is more needed in Carnatic circles than objective historiographical facts. Central Asian hordes may have ravaged the subcontinent in search of loot but were obviously not wanting in terms of lutes !

[arasi]

Salutations to all innovators from all over the globe. andariki vandanamu...

[harimau]

The only way Saraswathi is going to play the guitar is if she dresses in hot pants and a halter top.

That is quite an ignorant stereotype of guitar players but leaving that aside, what is the status of nagaswaram, jaladarangam etc. in your opinion?

I can assure you that I am NOT stereotyping guitar players. After all, I wouldn't want to see a man in hot pants and a halter top, though one may sight one in a Gay Pride parade!

One would think that the nagaswaram was an attempt at fashioning an instrument that produced a large volume of sound so that the sound would carry to long distances. Playing Carnatic music on it is natural.

On the other hand, Indian music on the jalatarangam is like Indian music on piano... except that it is harder to play!

Jalatarangam rivals the guitar in popularity during the December season, if you know what I mean.

If there were no other programs and there was a jalatarangam or guitar concert in Madras, I would doubt if 15 persons show up.

PS. So why are the innovators in Carnatic music ignoring the trombone? At least the tuba has the disadvantage of being rather large in size but the trombone is compact.

[uday_shankar]

So why are the innovators in Carnatic music ignoring the trombone?

Don't be too sure .

[coolkarni]

..

[harimau]

There ought to be limits to which one wants to stretch ancient arts to accommodate modern sensibilities.

And who sets these "limits"?

Why, Harimau of course! Don't you know he is the ultimate arbiter of what is good art and what is not?

Nothing, not one jot of substantive critique of the original article was seen in his post. The only point seen was that Harimau doesn't like the guitar and also has opinions on what Prasanna "should" do to get recognition as a Classical musician. It doesn't seem to me that the latter is desperate for recognition at all from the likes of Harimau!

Hot pants?!! Dead give-away that one is stuck in some 60s-70s paradigm.

You obviously do not realize this but you need a course in English Comprehension.

You say, "Nothing, not one jot of substantive critique of the original article was seen in his post."

I pointed out that Deekshithar wrote his sahithyas for Western tunes when he was a young boy, not after he had been formally taught classical music. That was a rebuttal to Prasanna's claim that [the reading on the ‘innovatometers’ of the early 19th century must have been "peak"

[srikant1987]

Harimau, the flute was very recently adapted for Carnatic music. So your Flute-Krishna-God-Carnatic doesn't hold much weight. The veena of course, has been connected with Carnatic music for centuries.

[Always_Evolving]

huh? Post no. 4 had no substantive critique. Post no. 9 as an afterthought came up with all the statements you quote.

Prasanna wrote:

... Dikshitar (....snipped) brought in unmistakable Hindustani meends into south Indian classical compositions like Neelotpalambikayam in the raga Purvagowla

So in your comprehension of history these were not innovations and your powerful brain says they were done before discipleship with his guru?

J S Bach also wasn't an innovator? And if I am to accept your argument that Dikshitar was not, well there have been enough others no. Where does Oothukadu Venkata Kavi stand on your innovatometer?

one would be reasonably correct in presuming that "choice of instrumentation" would refer to his peculiar choice of the guitar and hence seeking approval and recognition for it.

Why would one be "reasonably correct in presuming"? There have been many innovations in instruments in the post "Gods of India" era. The most significant was the violin, introduced into CM by Dikshitar's brother Baluswamy and since then a permanent presence on the CM stage. In addition there have been (in no particular order) , the nadaswaram, the chitravina /gottuvadyam, the viola, the keyboards, the whistle, the double-violin, the saxophone and in recent times the piano as well. Why would you "presume" that Guitar Prasanna in writing this article is defensively asking for approval for his own instrument?

YOU or for that matter I, may not think that these above instruments are worthy innovations but I don't see how you can question that they have gained acceptance in the mainstream of CM... in particular the mandolin and saxophone?

Prasanna to my knowledge does not even play traditional CM. Seems to me that he has rejected the Harimau/ Mylapore mindset as his chosen audience, by migrating to the west. But before him, Sukumar Prasad was very much a guitarist respected in CM.

I am not asking you to like guitar. But your critique is lost amidst the sarcasm and patronizing statements like:

Prasanna can either learn to play the veena or be known forever as a part of the fringe element in music who has to earn his living through the film world.

[rajeshnat]

Has anyone here, heard Prasanna in a concert or a Carnatic Album ?
Any Leads to some recordings ?

I have attended prasanna's concert once
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... h2006.html

[uday_shankar]

the flute was very recently adapted for Carnatic music. So your Flute-Krishna-God-Carnatic doesn't hold much weight.

Excellent point! Hahaharimau !

huh? Post no. 4 had no substantive critique. Post no. 9 as an afterthought came up with all the statements you quote.

Indeed that's the point. People like Harimau simply don't have the grace to admit mistakes and move on. I think you should stop arguing with him.

[srikant1987]

Prasanna to my knowledge does not even play traditional CM. Seems to me that he has rejected the Harimau/ Mylapore mindset as his chosen audience, by migrating to the west.

I don't think you meant it, but fond dwellers of Mylapore might find it offensive. Some of them could be fans of Prasanna too!

[coolkarni]

..

[srikant1987]

@ coolji,

Well, I find his music quite all right for the most part. I've listened to his recorded music only. Fifty years (or maybe a hundred) after he dies, people will probably say he'd mastered tradition before innovating too.

[arasi]

All I can say about Prasanna is this: Quite a few years ago, we did buy a cassette of his (cm music) and listened to it. The quality of the tape was poor and the guitar sounded not as appealing. His playing perhaps was better than how it sounded on that tape.
A few years later, we happened to be unloading our suitcases from the taxi at Boston airport, a kind young man offered help, walked in with us, being pleasant all the while. Curious as I was, I asked him: you carry your guitar on your back as my my son does. Do you dabble in it? He said he was going to India for a concert. When I asked his name, he answered, 'Prasanna'. A kind young man, have to listen to him in a concert rather than through an old ill-produced tape, I thought. Hope I can do it in the near future and make up my mind about his music. Such a nice young man...

[Always_Evolving]

Coolji

Though I have taken up cudgels and seem to be defending the article, I actually don't think the article is earth-shaking either. It's so-so and definitely can be critiqued.

But Harimau's post No. 4 was not a good critique. It simply claimed that only instruments played by the "Gods of India" should be played. I would like to ask Harimau how many veena concerts get featured in a typical December season. I would not be surprised if they were outnumbered by the mandolin and probably soon, by the synthesizer.

And I got riled by the patronizing / sarcastic tone.

[coolkarni]

..

[srikant1987]

I haven't listened to Prasanna's Carnatic music. I've listened to some of his fusion (in which Carnatic music is also "fused"), and he does it reasonably. Compared to the little fusion I've come across on TV, this was more "fused": the ones that came on TV just seemed like a lining up of various things. Now this real "fusion" is something I like better than the line-up.

There also seems to be more spontaneity in his fusions, which naturally forms a nerve centre of Indian classical music.

---
Well, people maybe forgotten in posterity, but it's unlikely an artist, as against a politician, may be insulted in posterity. In their days, MMI and GNB may have been harshly critiqued very often, but now they're among the "past masters" of Carnatic music.

[gn.sn42]

the bane of psuedo intellectualism through which one can hook up ones own halfbaked work in the classical arts to the likes of the big names quoted here.
Prasanna would be better off , making his music talk .

That's quite harsh, coolkarni. My impression of Prasanna is that he's a very talented, multi-faceted musician, who's doing excellent work at the junction of jazz, rock, and Carnatic music. To me, his Carnatic albums (and there are a few available out there) are well worth listening to, but more importantly, I find his educational efforts such as his online articles and his DVD explaining ragas to a guitar audience valuable. One production that I did not care for was "Carnatic Pep Album" (but that was a Sowmya production - and Sowmya's another artist I admire greatly).

Opinions will vary; but I do encourage you to listen to his music. I for one will continue to do so.

Shalini has put up a number of videos here: Prasanna on YouTube. Some of these are Carnatic, others are jazz and fusion.

Prasanna's web site is here: Prasanna's web site.

[coolkarni]

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[coolkarni]

..

[chalanata]

Has anyone here, heard Prasanna in a concert or a Carnatic Album ?
Any Leads to some recordings ?

I happened to listen to him live in Shanmukananda hall Mumbai more than a decade back. It was not very impressive.

[gn.sn42]

coolkarni, there was no need to modify your comments.

I don't understand jazz or rock either - for that matter I don't understand CM. I just feel that Prasanna is worth listening to. I get the feeling you're an open-minded person, particularly in music - so why don't you check out the YouTube videos, for example? There are some CM pieces there.

It's fair to dislike his music, of course; but to say that articles - any articles - are a bane of the world is a bit extreme.

[inconsequential]

Thanks coolji, for bringing in some sanity to this thread. The (indiscriminate) cheering for innovation is as tiring and bothersome as the so called traditional/conventional (the narrow Mylapore mindset as some here would like to put it) rasikas, who are accused of frowning upon anything new on CM stage. The orthodox practitioners are as important as (may be more than) the 'innovators' for the preservation of any art form.

>>>>It is these ‘new’ listeners, the iPod generation with their eclectic music tastes that I would like to see Carnatic music reaching out to, alongside the ‘seasoned’ listeners<<<<

It seems the author has a plan - and he is working according to it. Let him take from CM what he has to. Let him not be under the illusion that he is taking CM to any particular crowd. Why do we break our heads here?

Knowing this as his goal, the rest of the article is just rubbish. Bach, Ramanujam, Adi Sankara it seems. Let him be assured that if his innovations(??) are of such grand sweep and benefit mankind, he will surely be remembered for a long time.

Regards
-R.Varadharajan

[coolkarni]

..

[rajumds]

I have heard Prasanna live once and on TV once. Nothing spectacular. Sukumar prasad was way ahead both in control over the instrument and music.

[coolkarni]

....

[gn.sn42]

So why are the innovators in Carnatic music ignoring the trombone?

Don't be too sure .

Here's a related post: Carnatic brass

[gn.sn42]

Ofcourse I dont deny the right to anyone to speak out his mind.When I say it is a bane , it is only because such a nice moment to uphold traditions is missed , and sacrificed at the altar of modernism.

That's a fair opinion. I think I get the gist of your post - you do not approve of the choices made by Ravishankar and U Shrinivas and you wish for traditions to be maintained.

I can respect that even as I stick to my contrary views.

[harimau]

Coolji

Though I have taken up cudgels and seem to be defending the article, I actually don't think the article is earth-shaking either. It's so-so and definitely can be critiqued.

But Harimau's post No. 4 was not a good critique. It simply claimed that only instruments played by the "Gods of India" should be played. I would like to ask Harimau how many veena concerts get featured in a typical December season. I would not be surprised if they were outnumbered by the mandolin and probably soon, by the synthesizer.

And I got riled by the patronizing / sarcastic tone.

Get prepared to be riled more!

Just at the Music Academy in December 2008, we had:

Jayanthi Kumaresh - Veena and D. Balakrishna - Veena in the Senior slot,
Jayashree Aravind - Veena in the Sub-Senior slot, and
Manjari Chandran Ramesh - Veena in the Junior slot.

In addition,we had N. Ravikiran on the Gottuvadhyam in the Senior slot.

We had U. Srinivas on the mandolin in the Senior slot.

Mercifully, the synthesizer was not offered a slot, thank God!

In addition, the following Veena vidwans have been awarded the Sangeetha Kalanidhi:
Vidvan Mysore V Doreswamy Iyengar
Vidvan Karaikudi Sambasiva Iyer
Thanjai K.P. Sivanandam.

Vidvan Budalur Krishnamurthi Sastrigal also got the Sangeetha Kalanidhi for his Gottuvadhyam playing.

Mandolin players have not yet been awarded any title by the Music Academy.

You can look through the December Season Programme book which contains all the concerts and post information on how many veena concerts in total and how many mandolin and or synthesizer concerts in total were held in and around Madras.

[srkris]

Get prepared to be riled more!

He said "And I got riled by the patronizing / sarcastic tone", not by the content of your critique.

Let us not step on others' toes, however insignificant (in whatever way) they may be.

[uday_shankar]

Coolji (and Harimau perhaps),

I must apologize for entering this discussion without having read the original article by Prasanna (still haven't) or for that matter listening to him! I've heard the Carnatic pep album by Prasanna, Sowmya and others and found it quite cute. Other than that I really have no opinion (yet) on Prasanna or his music or the article.

That said, without going into specifics, I believe we must consider the following possibilities:

1) "Traditional" music on "traditional" instruments does not automatically guarantee that the music is deep or reflective or soul-stirring.

2) Musical "innovation" such as non-traditional idioms or instruments can be deep, intense and genuine.

So, isn't classical art that merely upholds "tradition" without imparting life and intensity to it sort of dead on arrival ? And is there no place in "classical" music for a non-traditional but genuine and soulful musical expression ?

Needless to say, much of all this is subjective. For what is deep and intense for one may be shallow to another. But I cannot help feeling that at least some of the knee-jerk reluctance to even countenance a "break" from tradition (some of it a mere 100 years old) does not stem from a well-formed opinion but rather a refusal to even give it an open hearing with an open mind.

[coolkarni]

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