In my journey to become more familiar with Carnatic music, the musicians, the composers, etc. I followed the usual path of graduating along a defined path: first , I liked (for whatever reasons) a particular song. So I listened to it over and over again. Then I listened to other songs by that artist. Somewhere it dawned that I also ought to listen to other songs in that ragam and I did that too, first by that same artist and then later by other artists. That led to further branching off...I'd very much have liked a tool that helped me with "If you liked this ragam...or this artist...then you may want to listen to these ragams...and these songs...by these artists..." but lacking that, I developed my own. I found certain ragams I liked were "Carnatic siblings" so I identified the parent and thereby, branched into the other siblings. That worked, it worked so well that I then branched off further into the "kissing cousins" ragams and the journey continues.
Along the way I often heard people say two things over and over again:
a) "Oh, if you liked this ragam then you ought to listen to..."
b) "Ahh, if you think Sanjay sang this song well you ought to listen to GNB (or <insert another artist>) singing that song (or ragam)...".
Sometimes you even hear veteran artists mention how much they like something delivered by another artist. These observations set me off on more quests...many of which were fruitful and enriched my experience. In their absence I'd have had to listen to many songs by many artists without leveraging what I and many others, including those significantly more knowledgeable, have already listened to and liked (or not liked).
Why do I share this? Because I believe there are many like me, and over the years ahead a lot more..., that aren't and won't be as savvy about things Carnatic as many of the rasikas here. And it'd be of immense benefit to them if the rasikas here can help put together two "reference lists" (bear with me for now on the terminology, please.)
This message is a call for the rasikas here to help make that a reality.
Here's how I can see that help others: if someone liked a particular song, say "Dwaitamu Sukhama", then they should be able to find (using the above "list" I refer to) the reference recordings of that song. It's likely Semmangudi will be in that recording and perhaps some others too. If they liked "Brochevare varu ra" the reference would be to GNB's rendition of that song. And so on...
If they liked Khamas or Ritigowla ragams then again the reference might be to the songs/artists mentioned above. Or others.
And to the sister ragams, related through janya and parent ragams (and I hope I'm using the right terms here), which vary from the ragams they already like in small ways, thereby enabling them to leverage what they already liked to expand into new territory.
Now I agree there won't be universal agreement on the best rendition of a ragam or song. We are not looking for the best so there's no point splitting hair over that. What would be helpful is a set, a bucket, of recordings on which there is *rough consensus* they are in a league of their own, different from other renditions (more pedestrian) of that ragam or song.
Along the way, I'd think this might even influence the Wikipedia (or equivalent) pages of artists or composers or ragams. I can see in MLV's page a section listing to her reference recordings. I can see a section on a ragam (or song) that listed the reference renditions. And so on.
Could the rasikas in this forum help make this a reality?
The Reference Recordings (or Renditions)
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srikant1987
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23
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Sam Swaminathan
- Posts: 846
- Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 08:45
Satish
Please try this site....I find it extremely helpful. My heartfelt thanks to the person maintaining this site for his contribution to the learners of carnatic music like myself.
Hope you find it useful as well....
http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivk ... nal/music/
Sam
Please try this site....I find it extremely helpful. My heartfelt thanks to the person maintaining this site for his contribution to the learners of carnatic music like myself.
Hope you find it useful as well....
http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivk ... nal/music/
Sam
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Satish
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 03 Dec 2008, 02:58
Sam, I've used Shivkumar Kalyanaraman's site, whose link you included, often and benefited from it. Yes, it is useful. And yes, kudos to how he has used what is obviously his love for the art to help others interested in it.
Does his site however address the problem and need I described in my message? If it does please help me understand how.
I've searched long and hard and haven't found any (yet) that address what I described in my message. Such a tool (or list or site...), I argue, will help many listeners (maybe not the super-savvy) of Carnatic music ranging from the newbies to those wanting to expand their repertoire. I don't have that expertise to put that list together and I believe it is (likely) beyond the reach of any one person and the answer is best arrived through a group process involving knowledgeable rasikas.
Does his site however address the problem and need I described in my message? If it does please help me understand how.
I've searched long and hard and haven't found any (yet) that address what I described in my message. Such a tool (or list or site...), I argue, will help many listeners (maybe not the super-savvy) of Carnatic music ranging from the newbies to those wanting to expand their repertoire. I don't have that expertise to put that list together and I believe it is (likely) beyond the reach of any one person and the answer is best arrived through a group process involving knowledgeable rasikas.
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vainika
- Posts: 435
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:32
... and then you may chance upon siddhIshvarAya namastE and fall hopelessly irrevocably utterly in love with nIlAmbarI as conceived by Dikshitar.srikant1987 wrote:If you like neelambari, you should listen to brovavamma. If you don't like, and fail to see why people like to so much, again you can listen to brovavamma. (I actually fell in the second case.)
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prashant
- Posts: 1658
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 09:01
As I have - truly, madly, deeply... what a song!!!vainika wrote:... and then you may chance upon siddhIshvarAya namastE and fall hopelessly irrevocably utterly in love with nIlAmbarI as conceived by Dikshitar.srikant1987 wrote:If you like neelambari, you should listen to brovavamma. If you don't like, and fail to see why people like to so much, again you can listen to brovavamma. (I actually fell in the second case.)
Last edited by prashant on 22 May 2009, 11:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Satish
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 03 Dec 2008, 02:58
Thank you, Coolkarni, for your detailed response.
I like having an open mind and not being (unduly) influenced by others. However, that approach you outlined is very time-consuming and for all of us, especially those with interests and passions, time is exactly what we lack. That explosion of technology you mention, with musical history at my feet, only compounds this problem for I, and I assume I can speak for many others too, lack the time to wade through all that.
Why has that concept of reference recordings, popular 30 years ago, passed away? Isn't it even more relevant today, given the greater demands modern life makes on our time?
Yes, the AIR wallahs and AVM-EMI bosses played the role of editors, thereby influencing (or limiting) who and what was heard and who/what was not. We don't run that risk today. Instead we leverage the social network of knowledgeable listeners to create a ref list of what's considered noteworthy, exemplary; another group elsewhere may create another list that may or may not overlap with what's created here but that doesn't dilute the value either list provides.
I like your idea of listing out the lifetime output of every artist, preferably joined at the hip with links to the recordings of the songs as well (for free or commercial download). In a way that would only compound the problem I'm describing. I'd be paralyzed and unable to act faced with a monumental list of SSI's recordings and would much prefer seeing that list in conjunction with "Here's what rasikas at rasikas.org recommend you listen to..."
I like having an open mind and not being (unduly) influenced by others. However, that approach you outlined is very time-consuming and for all of us, especially those with interests and passions, time is exactly what we lack. That explosion of technology you mention, with musical history at my feet, only compounds this problem for I, and I assume I can speak for many others too, lack the time to wade through all that.
Why has that concept of reference recordings, popular 30 years ago, passed away? Isn't it even more relevant today, given the greater demands modern life makes on our time?
Yes, the AIR wallahs and AVM-EMI bosses played the role of editors, thereby influencing (or limiting) who and what was heard and who/what was not. We don't run that risk today. Instead we leverage the social network of knowledgeable listeners to create a ref list of what's considered noteworthy, exemplary; another group elsewhere may create another list that may or may not overlap with what's created here but that doesn't dilute the value either list provides.
I like your idea of listing out the lifetime output of every artist, preferably joined at the hip with links to the recordings of the songs as well (for free or commercial download). In a way that would only compound the problem I'm describing. I'd be paralyzed and unable to act faced with a monumental list of SSI's recordings and would much prefer seeing that list in conjunction with "Here's what rasikas at rasikas.org recommend you listen to..."
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Satish
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 03 Dec 2008, 02:58
[I'm hoping this isn't limited to exchanges between CoolKarni and me, he knowledgeable and me far less so, as the topic merits others like him contributing what they consider as the quintessential recordings.]
Rough consensus may produce not necessarily "two or max three" but more, say ten renditions/recordings considered to be exemplary (for that ragam, or artist, or kriti). That's still ok; what's important is to differentiate those exemplary performances from the more pedestrian.
To add to what's mentioned earlier in this thread, here are a few I think belong to the list.
[Disclosure: my experience is limited and what follows was gathered from interviews/discussions with far more knowledgeable rasikas.]
Ragam: Khamas.
GNB's Brochevare varura.
Ragam: Yadukula Khambohi
Musiri's Pahi Ramachandra
Ragam: Ritigowla
SSI's Dwaitamu Sukhama
Ragam: Mohanam
Maharajapuram Santhanam's Nannu Palimpa
Ragam: Mukhari
SSI's Ksheenamai
Ragam: Kambhoji
TN Seshagopalan's O Rangasayee
Ragam: Begada
SSI's Lokavana Chatura
Rough consensus may produce not necessarily "two or max three" but more, say ten renditions/recordings considered to be exemplary (for that ragam, or artist, or kriti). That's still ok; what's important is to differentiate those exemplary performances from the more pedestrian.
To add to what's mentioned earlier in this thread, here are a few I think belong to the list.
[Disclosure: my experience is limited and what follows was gathered from interviews/discussions with far more knowledgeable rasikas.]
Ragam: Khamas.
GNB's Brochevare varura.
Ragam: Yadukula Khambohi
Musiri's Pahi Ramachandra
Ragam: Ritigowla
SSI's Dwaitamu Sukhama
Ragam: Mohanam
Maharajapuram Santhanam's Nannu Palimpa
Ragam: Mukhari
SSI's Ksheenamai
Ragam: Kambhoji
TN Seshagopalan's O Rangasayee
Ragam: Begada
SSI's Lokavana Chatura