Style is not TRADITION !

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 06 Mar 2009, 11:53

Style is NOT Tradition
Article by Sri. S.Madhva Muni Rao

Reading of the opinion of Great Maestro and Genius Dr.M.Balamuralikrishna on Tradition in Karnataka Music prompted me to share with the readers/rasikas/practioners of Karnataka Music the correct position on the Tradition in Karnataka Music as written in an article for the special issue by the Hindu and published by Late NMN, as part of performance review of Sandhyavandanam Srinivasa Rao(with his consent), doyen of Karnataka Music. In fact, DR.MBK had received lots of information and guidance from SSRao, when they were associated with AIR, India, as told by Dr MBK himself.
Tradition is not Style. Tradition is perceived and recognized as Classical-Excellence, time-tested and everlasting. Excellence is determined by the achievement of cherished goals of Indian Music - DehaSudhi- cleansing of the Body( Folk/Fast beat based other forms), KarnaSudhi - pleasing the Ears( light music, with greater emphasis onlyrics), Manas Sudhi- cleansing of the Heart( judicious mixture of melody and bhava) and Chitta Sudhi( Melody, with greater emphasis on Nada/Nadanubhavam-pure and noble sound). The Original, creative and innovative works of the Great Composers are encapsulated in their composition. It is a crystallization in music which has captured the vision of eternity gained by the great Masters in their sublimely creative moments.
The need to pursue this course of ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“Style' would not have arisen if the significance of what is Classical/Tradition had been deeply and profoundly understood by the artists. That which is truly Classical needs no updating, since it is not dated. It is eternal . It is so, because each masterpiece of the Classical legacy embodies immortal music . The task of preserving their immortal excellence is rendered immensely possible for the artist(s), who is musically sensitive and capable.
The pursuit of Pata Integrity rendered it possible to pass on priceless works with the flame of their creator burning in them. It was a path in which creativity was not shut out as commonly understood. Pata is repetitive, no doubt, but when the artist comes to it anew every time with artistic character of his intensely dedicated musical heart, he sees it as fresh as ever and presents it with the passion and ardor of the first romance with it .
In the task of preserving the Tradition/Classical Excellence, the Stylists have not been helpful and successful. They adopt the masterpieces and great works to fit in with the very personal propensities and idiosyncrasies of their talent. This is was/is an enterprise in which they freely tamper the great works, retaining only the skeleton and the broad sketch of the compositions and push their style in to the substance and improvisations(sangati ornamentations) of the works. With the growth of Styles and personal interpretations, the ideal of Pata Integrity suffered eclipse. This is the major factor,which has contributed to the decline in the Excellence and quality of Classicism in the cutcheri music.
Goals of the Indian Music, are
a) attaining theSat-Chit-Ananda(Reality, fresh, creative and unconditioned mind and pure Bliss),
b) Entertainment of the Rasikas.
Artist entertaining the rasika does not deviate or dilute the Tradition by accepting Money !
The contributer of this aricle may be contacted at:
SANDHYAVANDANAM MADHVA MUNI RAO
S.Madhva Muni Rao,
Son and Disciple of Late Sandhyavandanam Srinivasa Rao,
170/C, 3rd E Cross Street, 3rd Stage, 2nd Block,
Basaveshwarnagar, Bangalore-560079
Tel:80-23229151. Mobile:9845336203
E-Mail/MSN:munirao2001@hotmail .com

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 12 Mar 2009, 21:30

Thanks for sharing Vidwan Sandhyavandanam Sreenivasa Rao's thoughts with us. The subject is a fascinating aspect of sociocultural evolution.

Other articles that come to mind include
Music in South India: The Karnatak Concert Tradition and Beyond
Experiencing Music, Expressing Culture by T. Viswanathan and Matthew Harp Allen
http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/s ... escription

The Social Organization of a Music Tradition: Hereditary Specialists in North India by Daniel M. Neuman www.srinivasreddy.org/summer/Neuman%202.pdf

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 17 Mar 2009, 11:28

Dear Knandago2001,
Thanks for the comments. Besides the aspect of sociocultural evolution, the MAIN AIM of this article is for removing the MISCONCEPTIONS on the much discussed topic of TRADITION in Carnatic Music and to bring CLARITY and DEFINE the TRADITION in CARNATIC MUSIC( actually, Karnataka Music - During British rule times, the region of Karnataka , became Carnatic and music of Karnataka was also coined as Carnatic Music !)

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 09 Jun 2009, 12:19

Dear Rasikas,
Except for the posting of Knandago2001, there are no other posts on such important topic/article on the much misunderstood TRADITION in Music, Karnataka Music, in particular.
I will be keenly looking forward to feedback/comments/posts on this subject from my fellow RASIKAS.
Thanks
S.MADHVA MUNI RAO

narayan · Post by **narayan** » 09 Jun 2009, 15:06

Dear Sri S.Madhva Muni Rao,
I'm not sure whether this is the feedback that you are looking for, but here it is anyway. Anything that is written in stone, soon acquires the characteristic of stone, at best capable of inspiring awe, but not something that lives and grows. I myself have a taste for some of the older, classical compositions and ragas, but I am convinced that unless a human of today can make it part of her/his creative journey, it will be a museum relic and perhaps worth studying, but not lively and attracting the practice of the art. In that process of interpretation, how much liberty is to be taken is subjective (my taste is usually for less as opposed to more, but there must be something, otherwise it is plain boring). Pleasing to the ear itself is such a subjective matter. Elevator music by nicely tuned electronic means is pleasing, but who can listen to it for more than 4 floors worth of time. It is the imperfect human trying to come to terms with the values of the art and constantly trying to shape it that is interesting.
If my views are too flippant, pl ignore and move on (there are more than 7000 rasikas registered on this site now, so I hope there will be quite a variety of views of those who choose to express them!).

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 09 Jun 2009, 15:48

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 09 Jun 2009, 17:56

There is an interesting book by Eric Hobsbawm called 'the Invention of tradition'. Invented traditions "are responses to novel situations which take the form of reference to old situations, or which establish their own past by quasi-obligatory repetition." Scottish kilts were initially a new fashion and style but over time the kilt has come to be associated with Scotish traditions.

Consider the place of the violin in Carnatic music today: it is considered an essential part of the Carnatic concert but at one stage it was probably thought of something new, copied from the British and perhaps some of 'traditionalists' of the day would have frowned upon its introduction to Carnatic music. Today it is looked as a traditional instrument of Carnatic music.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Jun 2009, 20:37

How did the violin become mainstream? How was drawing water from the well displaced by getting water from faucets within the house? Village to town, geographic and historic changes, march of times, our adapting to them, and so it goes. What was reality in those times becomes relics of today and what was unthinkable becomes mainstream.
This is where art is different and amazing. The best of it survives (tradition), still burning bright. It goes on, in a small way or gloriously, dependent upon the times and of its practitioners. Why? Such artistes understand the content of their chosen art, see it afresh (it is the most crucial bit, I think), keep the flame alive, adding their own imagination to it without bringing it down--at best, enhancing it.
To an untrained mind like mine, style might merely mean something which comes in handy for recognizing the school of a particular performer by way of his guru paramparA or, his own style of rendering. That does not say it all: GNB, MLV, Sudha; MMI, TVS, Suryaprakash. That is not all, is it?
The problem arises again in understanding the import of the words in the english language by which we all are bound and share our views. Style can mean so many things. Is it the manner in which an artiste expresses herself? Something which has a distinctive or characteristic expression of school, a particular region, etc? Style also means convention. Is that where it is thought of as tradition?

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 10 Jun 2009, 07:36

There is a word 'Pani' that was being used by musicians. May be that word can be substituted for the english word 'style'.

It appears that any activity that survives three generations becomes a tradition.
There are many shades of traditions between modern traditions and the age old traditions.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 13 Jun 2009, 11:21

Dear Mr.Narayan,
Thanks for the comments. I wish to clarify that Tradition does not stand for and mean to shut out manodharma/creativity and is against change for it connotes, freezing or fossilizing the stream of ideas/thoughts. Tradition is CELEBRATION OF EXCELLENCE (true, in the sense factually new creative additions, not the modified with cloak of New/fresh ideas/expressions/communications)
I request you to once again have second serious and careful reading of the article. The answers are there.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 13 Jun 2009, 11:39

Dear Mr.Coolkarni,
Thanks for the comments. The 'Style' relevant to this article and subject , refers to the distinct, unique expression/communication of musical phrase , interpretation and mannerisms of the performer(s). Such interpretations and mannerisms, even if it gains the popularity, does it meets the Goal and Objective of Musical Excellence, time tested and everlasting ?
Your comment is based on the interpretation and method of Style is as one of the mode and mean of execution. For Musical Excellence, the Goal is - Sat-Chit-Ananda, as explained in the article.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 13 Jun 2009, 11:50

Dear Mohan,
Thanks for the comments. Tradition, means the celebration of Excellence, time tested and ever fresh, lingering with near total recall experience of Ananda(Bliss) and ever lasting. Any creative innovations/ideas , meeting the Goal, naturally becomes Tradition.
Introduction and adoption of the Violin instrument, in Karnataka Music, is one of the good case example of Tradition

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 13 Jun 2009, 11:56

Dear Arasi,
Thanks for the comments. Some of my replies to the other esteemed rasikas comments may clarify or meet the requirements. Style can become convention, depending on the popularity of the performer, but can not become Tradition !

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 13 Jun 2009, 12:05

Dear Shivadasan,
Thanks for your comments. One generation means 33 years. Anything which has survived three generations, i.e.99 years, need not become Tradition, if it does not meet the Goal
Bani(not Pani) is not substitute for Style. Musical practice and performance, distinctly identified with a Geographical region, e.g.Thanjavur, Mysore and Andhra etc, is known as Bani.
Tradition is not restricted to times- like Age-old and Modern etc.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 13 Jun 2009, 17:20

A style copied by a lot of people becomes a tradition in due time.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 13 Jun 2009, 17:32

We have stylish traditions as well as traditional styles!

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 15 Jun 2009, 11:38

Dear srkris,
Thanks for the comments.
Tradition is not Style. Tradition is perceived and recognized as Classical-Excellence, time-tested and everlasting. Excellence is determined by the achievement of cherished goals of Indian Music - DehaSudhi- cleansing of the Body( Folk/Fast beat based other forms), KarnaSudhi - pleasing the Ears( light music, with greater emphasis onlyrics), Manas Sudhi- cleansing of the Heart( judicious mixture of melody and bhava) and Chitta Sudhi( Melody, with greater emphasis on Nada/Nadanubhavam-pure and noble sound).

A style copied and re-produced, remains Style only, even if it is popular ! A style is always identified with the Originator, but can not be construed as Tradition, unless it meets the cherished goals of Excellence.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 15 Jun 2009, 12:21

Dear Ragam-Talam,
Thanks for the comments.
Tradition - Bani - Style are distinct and seperate. If understood clearly, clarity comes and enjoyment is total. Bani and Styles identified with a particular geographical region, a school of Music/Guru and the unique manner of expression and presentation, even if repetitive, can not be construed to have become Tradition. To become and identified as Tradition, the Goals of Musical Excellence have to be achieved, to give the rasika, true Nadanubhavam - leading to Bilssful experience( transporting from outer self to inner self), giving unalloyed joy and cheers, for the first listening experience and continuously capable of giving recall pleasure, of the same intensity of the first experience.
While Bani is in serious pursuit of Classical Excellence, Style's objective is to please the rasika(jana ranjakatvam), relatively easily and create the habit of getting pleased, with minimal efforts(on the part of rasika) and for expecting and demanding the excitement, every time of listening to the Stylists renditions.
Your opinion of stylish traditions and traditional styles can not be accepted, as Style and Tradition are totally distinct, clear and remain seperate. Styles, if popular, are being imitated or followed with limited objective of rasika's acceptance and patronage. With total committment, dedication, practice(sadhana) and clear vision, one can measure up to the highly demanding Goals of Classical Excellance, the Tradition. Such practioners and performers realise and benefit from the fruits(Phala) of Tradition and also pass on the benefit to the Rasika, who takes efforts to realise or actualise !

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Jun 2009, 14:17

Tradition can be trivial, and meet none of the very high demands of it that you set out.

Would you accept that the current concert format is tradition (although it is not an ancient tradition)? I guess it has has stuck, because it works in many ways, but carnatic music itself would not be massively changed, and its potential to uplift and inspire or its embodiment of classical value and discipline would not be altered greatly if we were to start with a tillana, and turn the entire program upside down. But could we begin with mangalam? No; it would be an obvious nonsense, but a nonsense of a very basic and practical kind, like profusely thanking one's host for the delicious meal before it has beeb served.

I think that style and tradition are closely related: is not our current concert format the result of somebody's style?

Everything, sometime, has to be new, has to have a beginning, be an innovation. Those things that work well may become tradition; to use they English expression, they stand the test of time.

Unfortunately, I'm not so sure that we can always equate tradition with quality. When you say "the highly demanding Goals of Classical Excellance, the Tradition.", I do not think this is the right use of the word. Is it traditional now to have 3-hour RTPs in our concerts? It is not. Unless you you are using the word, in this context, in the sense of some great achievement that once was and should be strived for. The striving and the sentiment I completely agree with; the use of the word, I don't.

It would be wonderful if tradition was always the result of the high ideals of which you speak, if only the best from the greatest masters was allowed to influence it; unfortunately it may often not be the case.

sampoorna · Post by **sampoorna** » 15 Jun 2009, 16:48

Just some thoughts that have come to my mind on the very interesting topic of what is tradition.

I have been reading this thread since its inception and mulling over it trying to collect my thoughts. The definition of what is "tradition" has been bothering me. Even though expressed in so many words it seems a little vague. The "starting point" seems very elusive and that is what the comments also seem to be indicating. In this regard, I had this conversation with my father and what he said made sense to me. I'll try to recollect as best as I can.

He said that our hindu tradition is apurushaeya (beyond man) and kalatita (beyond time). I hope I used the right words. In other words, our tradition as we know it is what is in the Vedas. Anything else is not tradition, it is just what we do. He gave the example of a family which for many many generations has been drinking water from a particular well. It is not a tradition.

Seeing Sri Muni Rao's definition of tradition, he does state that tradition is that in which the goal is sat-chit-ananda whose precursors must be deha suddhi, karna suddhi, manas suddhi, chitta suddhi, etc. He uses words like excellence, everlasting, etc, which are better explained in the Vedas. So I am guessing that he is referring to that tradition in the Vedas. In fact, for hindus, if the goal is oneness with Brahman as per the Vedas, then they are following tradition no matter what profession they choose. If they deviate from the Vedas a molecule, then it cannot be considered tradition. Now, what does it mean to "follow what is in the Vedas" is something that learned people like the periavals have to address.

I had another thought. Then what is "tradition" for non-hindus? I think it is what they define as their starting point, e.g., bible for christians, etc. Of course the better defined a starting point is, the better are the results. But eventually it everyone should stick to their own traditions/guru with utmost faith and that will take them towards the ultimate goal, even if it takes several janmas.

Please excuse me if my thoughts have taken me in the wrong direction or if I have hurt anyone through them.

Narayana,

Sampoorna.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 15 Jun 2009, 19:42

coolkarni wrote:I am intrgued by the rigid description of a Stylist , here in this article.
And the pride of place to a traditionalist.
It is quite obvious why there are not many responses .The case for Tradition vs Style has to be made in a bit more detail .

IMHO everyone brands themselves for identity and that is what style is.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 15 Jun 2009, 20:27

I completely disagree with the stipulation that 'tradition' has to be associated with excellence. While in an Utopian society, it may be so, in reality, traditionally, 'tradition' is something that bears the stamp of approval of the 'old boy's club', or the 'old mAmI's club'

! And I am 'unanimous' in my opinion (fans of 'Are you being served?' will surely relate!).

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Jun 2009, 05:26

>But it may be right to say that all styles are not traditions

Right. That is indeed the title of the thread, almost.. it should have said 'Style is not necessarily tradition'.

I agree with ravi and srkris that excellence need not be equated with tradition as it is commonly understood.
I guess the key point to contemplate is, how any non-excellent thing becomes a tradition. (Style need not even be in the picture. )

There is always a carrot vs stick equation in establishing such traditions.

This carrot and stick can involve God, King, Authorities, Elders or just simple peer pressure.

( btw, eating fish can be considered excellent too given the health benefits... but I digress...that is a different dimension )

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Jun 2009, 06:57

Ravi,
Are You Being Served? and Keeping Up Appearances are great examples of how tradition needn't necessarily mean quality of life, excellence in the arts and so on. Even in the indian context, 'nAlu pER enna SolluvArgaL?' (what will others think) explains this. Keeping up with the Joneses becomes tradition in the course of time.

srkris,
kaDal vAzhaikkAi is a classic example of traditions born out of displacement. I am struck by the way ketchup has become a condiment with traditional indian food both at home and in restaurants in India now!
In CM, what we knock today by saying that it is way out, will become a tradition at a later date. CM history proves it too. Anything which has excellence survives, anyway. Certain other lesser things will prevail too, whether we like them or not.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 16 Jun 2009, 10:06

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 16 Jun 2009, 12:26

Dear Nick.H,
Thanks for the comments. My humble rejoinder is, as follows:
1) Tradition can not be trivial. But, trivialization takes place, when tradition is not fully understood, practiced , with lack of vision and deep commitment. Unfortunately, Stylists largely contribute to the trivialization.
2) Concert format is determined and constrained by the Time factor, which rasikas are willing to commit The Performers/Artists and Organizers should set the standards first for rasikas to appreciate and demand more and extend unstinted support. Even with the time constraint, Great Maestros offer, music of very high quality and excellence, upholding the values of tradition.
3) Style is a method of delivery, but Tradition is the very substance.
4) Tradition is to be correctly understood that it demands innovation ( based on the manodharma), true, but not different way of offer of the existing and established.
5) Great Vaggeyakaras and Great Maestros bestow pregnant classical music, meeting the ideals and goals of Excellence. Rasikas should demand constantly excellence, encourage and support for the continued enrichment and total satisfaction.
6) Yes. Prevalence of Good-Bad-Ugly is nature's order, for all times. All the concerned should devotedly strive for encouragement of Good, irrespective of the popularity.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 16 Jun 2009, 12:51

Dear Sampoorna,
Thanks for the comments.
1) Veda means Knowledge. Knowledge is Experience - Direct and Indirect. Vedas are declared Apurusheya, only because they are conveyed and written by many authors/Maharishis.
2) Tradition is not time bound. Hence, no need for the starting point. It is a crystallization in music which has captured the vision of eternity gained by the great Masters in their sublimely creative moments.
3) Ideal is to achieve the Goal in this Life, not beyond !

4) That which is truly Classical needs no updating, since it is not dated. It is eternal . It is so, because each masterpiece of the Classical legacy embodies immortal music . The task of preserving their immortal excellence is rendered immensely possible for the artist(s), who is musically sensitive and capable.
The pursuit of Pata Integrity rendered it possible to pass on priceless works with the flame of their creator burning in them. It was a path in which creativity was not shut out as commonly understood. Pata is repetitive, no doubt, but when the artist comes to it anew every time with artistic character of his intensely dedicated musical heart, he sees it as fresh as ever and presents it with the passion and ardor of the first romance with it .

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 16 Jun 2009, 12:59

Dear VK Raman,
Thanks for the comments. Intention, Comfort and Convenience of the performer, takes a distinct and discernible pattern of rendition. When accepted, appreciated and supported by the Rasikas, the rendition becomes a Syle. It establishes the identity, no doubt.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 16 Jun 2009, 13:21

Dear rshankar,
Thanks for your comments.
Unfortunately, you have not correctly understood the meaning and the values of Tradition. It is emphatically not 'Old- Mama and Mami's Club' s demands. Rasikas who crave for recall experience and to relive the Joy and to derive the total satisfaction of blissful experience, of Classical excellence, demand such music. Unfortunately, it is nowadays associated with "Old Mama and Mami's Club'. This category of Rasikas give time, effort and commitment for Music appreciation.

Other category of Rasikas/Fans, who proclaim ' fans of 'Are you being served?', look for excitement, momentary happiness , derived with least or minimal efforts and go by the dictum, all that is good, if it is popular !
I urge you and the other rasikas/fans who share your opinion/view to attend to Music Appreciation programe being conducted by Smt. Radha Bhaskar, to equip your self to truly appreciate and enjoy the Classical Execllence. I hope you will become a valuable member of "Old Mama - Mami's Club', to use the popular coinage, irrespective of your age.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 16 Jun 2009, 13:28

Dear srkris,
The Tradition in KM is not bound by Time, ritual, practice or life style, but it is beyond ! When the cherished goals of KM are met, Tradition is established and is followed to continue to derive the Blissful experience.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Jun 2009, 14:04

Tradition ... ... ... is the democracy of the dead.

One of the most powerful quotes I've seen in a long time!

3) Style is a method of delivery, but Tradition is the very substance.

Further discussion, especially of the semantic kind, I cannot do until I get back to Chennai (too busy to even read the preceding posts properly), but this point from Muni Rao, I think, expresses very simply what I think he is saying, and rings very true. I still can (and will

) argue about the language though.

Society has many "tradtitions" which are truly horrible!

Shalu · Post by **Shalu** » 16 Jun 2009, 14:46

srkris wrote:A style copied by a lot of people becomes a tradition in due time.

Would agree with srikris - there has to have been a genesis to tradition, which can change along with changing times.The purity and pristiness/excellence of tradition is not for a moment disputed. But if it has to reach all across time, then it has to keep pace with the changing world to prevent itself from being lost in oblivion. Otherwise while the wealth and weight is huge, it will only be restricted to that strata of society, get funnelled down and ultimately fade away. The custodians can only hold on for that long. But if it is open to continual scrutiny/learning, then different styles can be evolved, which simplifies, without taking away the essence because only then can it have the reach. Just like all other complex situations/activities are being simplified for easier consumption, tradition is no different.

Sorry folks if I am sounding too simplistic here but as a deep lover of our this special carnatic music, it pains me at times to see many of my western counterparts not even wanting to venture listening to some rigid compostions (which rightfully demand the complexities of a traditional music system) simply because its heavy and goes 'six inches over our heads'. But however, when the traditional pieces are broken down into simpler renderings, it reaches deep down and then the same group says 'oh we love your carnatic music'. All I say is that let us not be putting ourselves up in silos in the name of tradition.

With due respects, Shri Rao, truly appreciate your starting this thread with such a thought provoking topic for us culture steeped souls, grappling with the situations of playing dual roles of sticking to 'tradition' and keeping abreast of the world's technological advances.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 16 Jun 2009, 14:55

Shalu wrote:Sorry folks if I am sounding too simplistic here but as a deep lover of our this special carnatic music, it pains me at times to see many of my western counterparts not even wanting to venture listening to some rigid compostions (which rightfully demand the complexities of a traditional music system) simply because its heavy and goes 'six inches over our heads'. But however, when the traditional pieces are broken down into simpler renderings, it reaches deep down and then the same group says 'oh we love your carnatic music

This may have something to do with differing value systems.

Here in India we like things that go over our heads. It fascinates us so much to know that we can't understand/reach something, that we develop a sort of respect for it. Whatever we can understand/access easily, we view with disinterest/contempt ("it's no big deal").

In other parts of the world, perhaps people are so self-centered that anything they cant understand without much exertion is not worth probing into ("Someone get me interested in carnatic music if possible").

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 16 Jun 2009, 18:18

Lock up you up in a dark room and torment you with carnatic music. Will that get you interested in carnatic music?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Jun 2009, 19:37

Quoting Cool quoting Maugham: Tradition is a guide, not a jailor...
Guide as in Guru, jailor as in 'pickle it for the future, and no more'...

All through history, every nation has had, and still has those who parody flaws in the social and cultural modes of society. Humorists, cartoonists continue to do so today. Looking at the above mentioned british programs 'literally' is as if someone who views mahAbhAratam thinks of it as a treatise on war and nothing more!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 16 Jun 2009, 20:20

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 Jun 2009, 20:29

munirao2001 wrote:Dear rshankar,
Thanks for your comments.
Unfortunately, you have not correctly understood the meaning and the values of Tradition.

Really?? As someone who struggles with the meaning of 'tradition' in not just music, but with the impact of this on life in general (and to determine what should be passed on to the next generation in particular), I am familiar with all the arguments and have been guilty of making several of the ones you make as well. As I undertand it, there is no easy way of determining what constitutes tradition, and tradition to one may be a mere style for another, and completely meaningless to yet another. You have stated your views - some agree, and some don't. Anyone who insists that their view is the only correct one runs of risk of sounding patronizing!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 17 Jun 2009, 02:44

This thread seems to be mostly 'Much ado about nothing'

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 17 Jun 2009, 06:13

R-T, I agree!!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Jun 2009, 06:55

The bard might belong to Tradition, but he is pretty cool. Yes, 'Much Ado About Nothing' is right. There may be better 'indian' expressions, but I will stick with the old man of Avon, and need I say it? He is always in style, everywhere on earth

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 17 Jun 2009, 12:03

Dear Shalu,
Thanks for the comments.
1) Any listener first likes to hear and appreciate Music, which he is either familiar or the same resembles the familiar and excites. If listener takes efforts to understand the basics, if not intricacies, he can well appreciate, any kind and form of Classical Music. Success of Great Maestros of Music in popularizing the Music, all over the Globe, is sufficient proof.

2) The pursuit of Pata Integrity rendered it possible to pass on priceless works with the flame of their creator burning in them. It was a path in which creativity was not shut out as commonly understood. Pata is repetitive, no doubt, but when the artist comes to it anew every time with artistic character of his intensely dedicated musical heart, he sees it as fresh as ever and presents it with the passion and ardor of the first romance with it .
In the task of preserving the Tradition/Classical Excellence, the Stylists have not been helpful and successful. They adopt the masterpieces and great works to fit in with the very personal propensities and idiosyncrasies of their talent. This is was/is an enterprise in which they freely tamper the great works, retaining only the skeleton and the broad sketch of the compositions and push their style in to the substance and improvisations(sangati ornamentations) of the works. With the growth of Styles and personal interpretations, the ideal of Pata Integrity suffered eclipse. This is the major factor,which has contributed to the decline in the Excellence and quality of Classicism in the cutcheri music.

3) Tradition demands creativity, innovoation and rich additions to the wealth of experience and knowledge. It does not shun the New, as is commonly understood. It is definitely not creating, putting the Music in 'Silos' and locking it for ever !
I now urge you to uphold the true Tradition of absorbing the Best of the Technological changes, which enables you to meet the challenges and goals of KM. History and development of KM gives sufficient proof.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 17 Jun 2009, 12:13

Dear srkris,
What you have observed and stated is the Global phenomenon. The listening, appreciation and support vastly varies for the kind of Music- Classical and other forms.
Music is of three categories - Pandita ranjakatva ( pleasing the learned), Pamara ranjakathva ( pleasing the lay listener/rasika) and Pandita Pamara ranjakatva ( pleasing both the learned and lay listener/rasika)

Appreciation and support to Classical form of Music in the Western Music is also restricted and not popular, when compared to other forms of Music.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 17 Jun 2009, 12:16

The wise speak because they have something to say.

Fools speak because they have to say something.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 17 Jun 2009, 12:24

Dear Arasi,
See what happens if Maugham Quote is " Tradition is a Guide, not a jail. Guide as in Guru(like true Guru, who propels you for unending pursuit of knowledge, after providing the knowledge and kindling your deep interest). Jailor as 'reformer' for the future and no more"

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 17 Jun 2009, 12:27

Dear rshankar,
This thread restricts to KM only. Having invited and welcomed all the rasikas, like you, I can not be patronizing !. I am only urging you to go serious in to the meaning of the Tradition in KM.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 17 Jun 2009, 12:32

Dear Arasi,
I will stick with the old man of Avon, and need I say it? He is always in style, everywhere on earth, constantly searching for the bard, belonging to the Tradition, to stay Cool !

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 17 Jun 2009, 12:37

Dear coolkarni,
What all I want to say is 'Having Silver coins, go for the Gold'

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 17 Jun 2009, 14:04

munirao2001 wrote:I am only urging you to go serious in to the meaning of the Tradition in KM.

May I request you, if possible, to condense to a maximum of 3 bullet points, the essence of what you intend to convey.

Regards

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Jun 2009, 15:05

munirao2001 wrote:Dear Arasi,
I will stick with the old man of Avon, and need I say it? He is always in style, everywhere on earth, constantly searching for the bard, belonging to the Tradition, to stay Cool !

There is absolutely no question, even to a relative newcomer, and foreigner, such as myself, that tradition plays a huge part in carnatic (and probably many other serious music forms, even folk) music.

For those of us who have have even a small experience of being a student, tradition becomes even a bigger reality; the sense and flavor of those who went before, of those who taught our teachers and our teacher's teachers.

The rest is discussing the meaning of a word, which, whatever it may say in a dictionary, has different meanings to all of us.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 17 Jun 2009, 16:01

Nick, you are no foreigner!
I can bet there are lots of lads growing up in India for whom CM would be a 'foreign' idea!
As far as CM goes, you are 100% desi!

(Now, when it comes to the English language, that's a whole another question! Aha!

)