Meaning- Meera Bhajan: Jo tum todo

Agraja · Post by **Agraja** » 19 Jun 2009, 13:58

Could someone please explain the meaning of the Meera Bhajan titled "Jo tum todo piya". From what my friends have translated for me, the direct translation comes out to be "Whatever you break, my love, I will not..". This however doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe I'm missing the symbolic significance... Any suggestion/explanations??

krishnaa · Post by **krishnaa** » 19 Jun 2009, 16:41

please post the lrics if possible. i will try and translate it.

jo tum toDo piyA, mai nAhi toDu
tO sO prIta toDi kRSNa kaun sang joDu
the line means "my beloved! even if YOU break the relation between us, i will not. for who else will i join my love to if i break it with you? (meaning that kRSNa is obviously most worth of receiving mIrabAi's love. once broken with him, no one else is left...)

please post the rest of the lyrics if possible otherwise i can transcribe from the tape i have.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 19 Jun 2009, 17:45

jO tum tODO piyA main nAhi tODU rE
tOri prIt tODi krSna kaun sang jODU
tum bhayE taruvara main bhAyI pankhiyA
tum bhayE sarOvara main tErI manchiyA
tum bhayE girivar main bhayI cArA
tum bhayE candA ham bhayI cakOrA
tum bhayE mOtI prabhu ham bhayI dhAgA
tum bhayE sOnA ham bhayI khAgA
bAyI mIrA kE prabhu brij kE vAsi
tum mErE ThAkur main tEri dAsI

krishnaa · Post by **krishnaa** » 19 Jun 2009, 21:03

here is the translation:

jO tum tODO piyA main nAhi tODU rE
tOri prIt tODi krSna kaun sang jODU
my beloved!(piyA) even if (jo) YOU(tum) break (toDo) the relation between us, i(main) will not(nahi toDu). for who else(kaun sang) will i join (joDu) my love (prIt) to if i break (toDi) it with you?

tum bhayE taruvara main bhAyI pankhiyA
tum bhayE sarOvara main tErI manchiyA
if you (tum) are (bhayE) a grand tree(tuaruvara), then i am(main bhaiyI) a bird(pankhiyA). if you are a lake(sarovara), i am a fish(manchiyA) in it.

tum bhayE girivar main bhayI cArA
tum bhayE candA ham bhayI cakOrA
if you are a hill(girivar), i am a stream(cArA). if you are tyhe moon(candA), then i am the cakora bird.
[the cakora bird is known to stare at the full moon continuously]

tum bhayE mOtI prabhu ham bhayI dhAgA
tum bhayE sOnA ham bhayI khAgA
if you are a bead(motI), i am the thread(dhAgA), and if you are gold(sonA)....

mIrA kahe prabhu brij kE vAsi
tum mErE ThAkur main tEri dAsI
mIrA says(kahe), my lord(prabhu), who resides in vrajadhAma(brij ke vAsI), you are my(mere) lord(Thakur) and i am your servant (dAsI)

corrections welcome.
Agraja, hope this helps you.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 19 Jun 2009, 21:37

krishnaa, very nice!!

krishnaa · Post by **krishnaa** » 19 Jun 2009, 21:42

Thanks Ravi!!

the audio of this bhajan sung by Vani Jayaram is really wonderful... i remember seeing it online somewhere, if i remember, i will post the link.
otherwise, if anyone else knows it, please post it so that it can be relished by other rasikas...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Jun 2009, 00:02

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERb61NmBCPs

krishnaa · Post by **krishnaa** » 20 Jun 2009, 00:17

Thanks cmlover! Thats exactly the one!

Agraja · Post by **Agraja** » 20 Jun 2009, 02:12

Lakshman sir, thanks a lot for the lyrics! Krishnaa, thanks a lot for your effort to translate the entire composition! Really appreciated! I finally understand what I missed... the context of the first line lies within the second. Query satiated!

However, I do have some questions... from the video cmlover has provided (many thanks for that!

), the lyrics sound slightly different from the one Laksman sir has provided.. example being the second line in Laksman sir's version: "tOri prIt tODi krSna kaun sang jODU", and in Krishnaa's version where it goes as : "tOsO prIt tOD krSna". I believe the one Laskman sir has provided belongs to the song of the same name from the movie "Jhanak Janak Paayal Baaje" as opposed to Krishnaa's "Meera".

So what I'm getting at is, which one is the correct version? I'm not so adept in Hindi so can't classify which one's the original version and which is the "Hindified" version. Someone please clarify on that.. Also, from some other sources, the lyric to the second stanza, first line is "...patIyA" rather than "...pankhiyA". Again, which one is right? Please advise.

Thanks again everybody for the great effort!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Jun 2009, 02:27

The word is suhAga--a happy state of being a wife (sumangali). sOnA (gold) and suhAg go together.
tarvar and pankhiyAn which seek shelter in the tree.
Yes, Sandhya singing it in jhanak jhanak pAyal bAje in Lta's voice.

Agraja · Post by **Agraja** » 20 Jun 2009, 02:50

Exactly Arasi, with "pankhiyAn", it affirms that in Lord Krishna, Meerabai seeks shelter. With "patIyAn", it shows that Meerabai considers herself a small part of Lord Krishna. Either way it makes sense!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 20 Jun 2009, 04:04

tOsO - in the dialect would translate into tum sE (from you) in Suddh hindi, while tOrI would be tumhAri (your), and both could be used with the phrase that follows: 'prIt tODi krshNa', but I think that in this context tOsO is more appropriate. It probably is tODi identifying the composer as female.

patiyAn and pankhiyAn can be used interchangeably.

And yes, like Arasi states, it is suhAgA - suhAgan - 'if you are/become (bhayE) gold (sOnA), I will be the auspicious one (suhAgA)' - is gold an essential part of rAjasthAni mangal sUtras? In the tamizh tradition, if I understand correctly, the yellow thread is what is essential - the gold in it can be replaced with a tuber of turmeric at a pinch.

Krishnaa can correct me if I am wrong!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Jun 2009, 04:53

So, all the love for gold in southern women perhaps came from vaDakkattiyAr (the northerners)

krishnaa · Post by **krishnaa** » 20 Jun 2009, 15:37

You are right Arasi, the correct word is suhAgA, i also was thinking that something seems to be wrong with the line...

And yours and Ravi's explainations are correct.

I hve heard the word tOsO more frequently and i think it is the corect one. SonA and suhAgA have been explained. and as for patiyan and pankhiya, they both make perfect sense but i have heard pankhiya more often...

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 20 Jun 2009, 22:27

http://www.acidplanet.com/components/em ... 855&T=4731

Agraja · Post by **Agraja** » 21 Jun 2009, 03:37

Thanks everyone! Didn't expect such a great response to this thread!

V K Raman, thanks for the link! It's taking a rather long time to load, though I see the lyrics match those provided by Krishnaa.

Krishnaa, I agree with you. "tOsO", as Ravi says, is derived from pure hindi. So my assumption goes that it is the original version, in what I believe to be Marwari, which itself must be a modification of pure Hindi. "tOri" is likely to be the "Hindified" version. About "pankhiyAn" and "patIyAn", I agree, they both make perfect sense. However, the meaning of each has greater dissimilarity than meets the eye.

By comparing herself to a leaf, she demonstrates her LOVE for Sri Krishna . She proves that whether anyone likes it or not, she'll always be an inseparable part of Sri Krishna. This resonates amongst her other lines, such as "tum bhayE sarOvara main tErI manchiyA" and "tum bhayE mOtI prabhu ham bhayI dhAgA". In both cases, the latter's existence without the former is meaningless. She shows that her life, without Sri Krishna, has no meaning, and cannot exist. She demonstrated pure assimilation into Sri Krishna. Her love, her devotion, has no compulsions.

By comparing herself to a bird, however, she shows her FAITH in Sri Krishna. Faith that he'll protect her from the predators that haunt her ( the general society). This enforces the feeling that she comes to him as a refugee, seeking his shelter. This also implies that she has submitted into Sri Krishna, rather than assimilate herself into him. A bird, other than a tree, has many options to seek shelter from. A leaf however, has none other... it's a part of the tree, always to be identified with the tree. The moment it detaches from the tree, it's existence becomes meaningless. In this case, by comparing herself to a bird, her devotion can be classified as compelled, by the society and other sources. And from history we know, this is not true. Meerabai had her love for Sri Krishna since childhood, her problems began after marriage. This shows that she didn't seek Sri Krishna for refuge from problems, but just for the pure love for him in her heart.

I hope I'm succeeding in showing you the actual implication of each.

Arasi, thank you for your explanation of suhAgA earlier in the thread! On a lighter note, about the love for gold amongst women, I'd say it's genetic! It's a love shared by all womankind

Nothing wrong with it! ItÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s an attribute that makes them even more endearing!

Ravi, thanks for the breakdown of the words. Although I do think that "tODi" refers to the bond "prIt" between Sri Krishna and Meerabai, rather than Meerabai herself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but let's say that if "prIt" was replaced by "prem", then what would fit is "tOra". This implies that "tOri" contextualizes their bond, not the protagonist's gender (Meerabai).

Again, suggestions are welcome.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 21 Jun 2009, 04:36

Agraja wrote: Ravi, thanks for the breakdown of the words. Although I do think that "tODi" refers to the bond "prIt" between Sri Krishna and Meerabai, rather than Meerabai herself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but let's say that if "prIt" was replaced by "prem", then what would fit is "tOra". This implies that "tOri" contextualizes their bond, not the protagonist's gender (Meerabai).

Agraja - this is what I meant - tODnA is the verb. If a male were saying '(if I were to) break the (bond of) love (between us) krishNa', the phrase would be 'tOsO prIt tODa...', while a woman would say 'tOsO prIt tODI...". I hope I have made myself clear - it is not the root of the verb (tODnA) that makes a reference to the gender of the composer, but the use of tODI. In this context, even with prEm, it would be tODI...

Agraja · Post by **Agraja** » 21 Jun 2009, 14:51

Ravi, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here. Consider this, if Meerabai were to use "prem" instead of "prIt", then as per what you say, the sentence would become " tOsO prem tODI "... which simply doesn't sound right! Also as you said, "tOsO prIt tODa", doesn't sound right either. From the little Hindi I know, "prIt" is a feminine word, irrespective of the who uses it. Same goes for "prem", which is a masculine word, since both being verbs, have their own characteristic gender quality. If I am correct, "prIt" is the name for a woman's love, while "prem" is that for a man's.

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 21 Jun 2009, 23:51

Agraja wrote:Ravi, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here. Consider this, if Meerabai were to use "prem" instead of "prIt", then as per what you say, the sentence would become " tOsO prem tODI "... which simply doesn't sound right! Also as you said, "tOsO prIt tODa", doesn't sound right either.

You're right about this part, prem tODA and prIt tODI would be the right answers in a match the following quiz!

the verb takes on the gender form corresponding to the subject most directly related to the verb, {prIt/prEm is what is being toDO-fied, who todO-s is secondary; hence the verb takes the gender and number(sing./plural) of the former}

However...

Agraja wrote:From the little Hindi I know, "prIt" is a feminine word, irrespective of the who uses it. Same goes for "prem", which is a masculine word, since both being verbs, have their own characteristic gender quality.

prEm and prIt(i) are Abstract nouns (i.e, nouns that depict a feeling or emotion) and they take on gender by being nouns (like gAdi and kalam and billI).. verbs aren't intrinsically engendered [yet!] in hindi..

Agraja wrote:If I am correct, "prIt" is the name for a woman's love, while "prem" is that for a man's.

This, too isn't very accurate.. both are words for love, coming into hindi and other languages from Sanskrit..

And, are at all there things such as a man's love and a woman's love... How would they be different..?

Agraja · Post by **Agraja** » 22 Jun 2009, 13:38

Keerthi, thanks for your opinion. I agree with you on most part...although you render me confused with this:

keerthi wrote:the verb takes on the gender form corresponding to the subject most directly related to the verb...hence the verb takes the gender and number(sing./plural) of the former...

On the other hand, you say:

keerthi wrote:.. verbs aren't intrinsically engendered [yet!] in hindi..

So....what exactly is your stand on verbs' engenderment?? And about prIt and prem being used by females and males respectively....just a wild guess...looking at their gender characteristic

Rajani · Post by **Rajani** » 22 Jun 2009, 18:48

Lovely discussion! Thanks to all who translated and interpreted.

I have heard the expression "sOnE pE suhAgA" often in spoken Hindi, meaning one good thing over and above another good thing, a double blessing etc. Somewhat like "pazham nazhuvi pAlil vizhundAR pOl".

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Jun 2009, 20:44

Rajani,
Exactly. Even your rare appearances bring home the meaning!

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 22 Jun 2009, 21:51

Rajani wrote:Lovely discussion! Thanks to all who translated and interpreted.

I have heard the expression "sOnE pE suhAgA" often in spoken Hindi, meaning one good thing over and above another good thing, a double blessing etc. Somewhat like "pazham nazhuvi pAlil vizhundAR pOl".

We have something similar in the following:
'ponmalar nARRamuDaittu'-meaning a golden flower-that too with fragrance
'parutti puDavaiyAi kAyttadu'- meaning from the cotton plant, you directly get a sari.

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 22 Jun 2009, 21:58

You said -

"prIt" is a feminine word, irrespective of the who uses it. Same goes for "prem", which is a masculine word, since both being verbs, have their own characteristic gender quality.

1. I think we agree that both aren't verbs..They are nouns..

1a. their gender arises from their being nouns..

2. verbs do not have an intrinsic gender.. nouns do.. Verb forms however have a gender connotation corresponding to that of the subject they describe..

To illustrate - 'KarnA' is a verb, and has no gender.. However in these examples, the verb-forms do take on the gender of the subject in the sentence..

Active voice examples : main JhAdU-pOnChA kartA hUn..

gItA daftar me kAm kartI hai.

Passive voice examples : BPO me din-rAt kAm kiyA jAta hai.

kanchIpuraM me acchi karIgarI kI jAtI hai.

the subjects of each sentence - main, gItA, kAm and kArIgarI govern the gender taken on by the verb-form..

Does it make significant-enough sense; or does it seem to be a case of hair-splitting..?

Rajani · Post by **Rajani** » 23 Jun 2009, 05:33

Thanks, Arasi and Punarvasu. "Ponmalar..." - such a lovely thought!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Jun 2009, 07:55

Ah, gilding the lily, I would say. Why not take gold for yellow? minnuvadellAm ponnalla.
And I am partial to silver!

Agraja · Post by **Agraja** » 23 Jun 2009, 12:37

Keerthi, your explanation is flawless. I fully understand now. Thanks a lot! Arasi, Rajani & Punarvasu, thanks for your additions!

smala · Post by **smala** » 23 Jun 2009, 14:06

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERb61NmB ... .......one of Hema Malini's worst performances - risking some wrath of aficionados maybe.....a stony lacklustre performance - no expression nor any involvement with the beauty of the lyrics or the song, the only action is of stiff walking around, that too - fast -- as if riding out the song...some sitting here and there, carrying the tambura around like a play-sword -- poorly directed song sequence IMHO. I have not seen Meera, Tamil version, but feel it must be superior to this one, knowing MSS and her penchant for understanding and involvement.

Rajani · Post by **Rajani** » 23 Jun 2009, 16:59

Arasi - I was referring to the imagination of "ponmalar" having a sweet smell "nARRamuDaittu". Silver would be fine too!