Carnatica Bros

sridharn · Post by **sridharn** » 14 May 2006, 07:58

Carnatica brothers were less than average, and they seemed very pleased with the manner in which the concert came off.

Mahesh, I don't know if there is some malicious intent in your putting down the Carnatica brothers. Your statement about their being 'very pleased with the manner in which the concert came off' suggests that. Having said that I somehow find it quite hard to believe that they were less than average. I heard from three different friends (one of them is a musician who I am sure is more knowledgeable than you and I!) that their concert was extremely classical both in the song selection and the manner it was delivered. I heard the brothers a few times during the Chennai music season, and it appeared to me their musicianship is far greater than most of the so-called stars of today. If they lacked anything, it was only showmanship. But one can argue that showmanship is only a camouflage for lack of real stuff (ever heard of empty vessels making more noise?). Every musician has his/her off day, but when the basic standard is above average, the concert can hardly be less than average!

They got a loooooooong way to go. They dont deserve a peak-time concert in my considered opinion, irrespective of all the activities they r involved with outside of the concert stage.

It would be superfluous for me to question your malicious intent again, but your above statements only reinforce it. Sorry pal, in my considered opinion you have lost your credibility completely with your references to their activities outside of the concert stage.

sridharn · Post by **sridharn** » 14 May 2006, 08:36

I am surprised that neither the moderator or anybody else hasn't jumped in here like they did in the Sowmya thread. Or are people only concerned if a 'star' gets bashed up?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 14 May 2006, 08:45

I am surprised that neither the moderator or anybody else hasn't jumped in here like they did in the Sowmya thread. Or are people only concerned if a 'star' gets bashed up?

No surprises here sridhar. There is no comparison between Mahesh3's post and the other post. mahesh3 is talking of a particulr concert. The other post on sowmya was completely irrelevant to the topic, was slanderous and refrred to some "recording" that no one here know about. I am sure you are able to appreciate the differences yourself. it is perhaps your admiration of the carnatica brothers that is blinding you.

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 14 May 2006, 08:47

Sridharn,

What I posted is my opinion, and I STICK TO IT. Carnatica brothers got a long way to go! I would not go to another concert of theirs...there is no malice! That was the first time I ever saw them, and no, they dint have an off-day.

Their selections in the concert were good, weighty krithis. Unfortunately, they just dont have the ability or the class to pull off the krithis they selected. Rendering swarams for everything does not a good concert make. "Diwakara" was butchered, as was another krithi in "Bowli". RTP was ok, just barely, barely tolerable, thanks to the great VR playing during the taanam

As I said, the brothers seemed pleased with the way their concert came off, I obviously was not. Its my opinion having spent a good three hours that morning listening to the non-cohesive, disjointed format of music they presented. To me, they did not even follow the basic fundamentals of singing "in concert"..the very term implying that they are supposed to seamlessly sing in tandem with the accompanyists.

Goodluck to you, and goodluck to them. It is heartening thet they have faithful fans like you and your friends (musicians or otherwise). If the brothers really are as good as you and your friends contend, my opinions should not matter. This is the last I will write on this topic, considering I dont have anything more to say.

sridharn · Post by **sridharn** » 14 May 2006, 09:45

Well everybody who posts here seems to be a loyal fan of someone or the other. This seems to typical of all Carnatic BBs. There seems no attempt to be even remotely objective about any musician or their music. On the one extreme we have the Aravinds blatantly pitting a Sowmya against a Sudha, and there are the Maheshs of the world who, under the guise of being decent posters, either go overboard with their praise of one musician or subtlely put down another with irrelevant remarks about their 'off-stage' activities. Now before people pounce back and accuse me of being 'blind' in my admiration for the Carnatica bros, let me clarify that my opinions about their formed only after hearing them in 3-4 concerts. I don't know them personally and have nothing to gain or lose by standing up for them here. In general I do make a genuine attempt to give every musician a fair hearing before I form opinions on them. To me, the Carnatica bros appear to be extremely solid in their musicianship and also possess the now-rare quality, ie. humility in their approach. Therefore it surprised me to see their music being described as less than average!

To now go to Mahesh's post:

What I posted is my opinion, and I STICK TO IT. Carnatica brothers got a long way to go! I would not go to another concert of theirs...there is no malice!

I'm sure it isn't going to be their loss.

That was the first time I ever saw them, and no, they dint have an off-day.

Now, if you have never heard them before, how would you know if they were having an off day or not? I would expect a little more open-mindedness in accepting that anybody may have off-days!

Their selections in the concert were good, weighty krithis. Unfortunately, they just dont have the ability or the class to pull off the krithis they selected.

Once again, don't judge anybody's ability based on one hearing!

As I said, the brothers seemed pleased with the way their concert came off, I obviously was not. Its my opinion having spent a good three hours that morning listening to the non-cohesive, disjointed format of music they presented. To me, they did not even follow the basic fundamentals of singing "in concert"..the very term implying that they are supposed to seamlessly sing in tandem with the accompanyists.

You keep saying they seemed pleased with the way their concert came off. What exactly do you mean by this? Was it something in their manner? If you were in a court, you would be reprimanded for bringing in irrelevant/immaterial things into the picture!

And pray, tell me, why should anyone sing seamlessly in tandem with the accompanists? It should be the other way round - the accompanists should provide seamless support! It doesn't matter whether it is a PMI or a LGJ or a VR or a TNK. The burden is on the accompanists, and not on the main artiste. I personally think a VR-Srimushnam combo would be odd, as I can't imagine their styles gelling very well. I wonder how they gelled with the artistes on that day!

Goodluck to you, and goodluck to them. It is heartening thet they have faithful fans like you and your friends (musicians or otherwise). If the brothers really are as good as you and your friends contend, my opinions should not matter. This is the last I will write on this topic, considering I dont have anything more to say.

I am proud to say that I am a fan of their music just as I am a fan of any good music, whoever the artiste may be. The bros have all the qualities I look for in anyone's music. Classicism, variety, originality, passion, no unnecessary ostentation, and above all, humility, which only truly superior artistes seem to possess.

nivedita · Post by **nivedita** » 15 May 2006, 09:22

Here's the song list for the Carnatica Brothers' Cleveland concert:

1. calamEla (varnam) - nATakurinji - Adi - Moolai Veedu Rangaswamy Nattuvanar
2. vinatAsuta - jayantasEnA - Adi - Tyagaraja (S)
3. kshaNamEva ganyamanyE - bauLi - Adi - Oothukkadu Venkata Kavi
4. entani nE - mukhAri - Rupakam - Tyagaraja (R,N,S)
5. mummUrtulu - aTANA - Adi - Tyagaraja (S)
6. ninnu ceppa - mandAri - Adi - Patnam Subramanya Iyer
7. pariyAcakamA - vanaspati - Rupakam - Tyagaraja (R)
8. divAkara tanujam - yadukulakAmbhOji - Chatusra Ekam - Muthuswamy Dikshithar (S)
9. ambA paradEvatE - rudrapriyA - Khanda Chapu - Krishnaswamy Ayya
10. RTP (nATTaikurinji enbAr) - nATakurinji - Adi (2 kalai)
tanam, swarams in nATakurinji, nATTai and kurinji
11. inI enna (padam) - sahAnA - Rupakam - Subbarama Iyer
12. jagadOdhAraNa - kApi - Adi - Purandaradasa
13. samayamidE (javali) - behAg - Rupakam - Patnam Subramanya Iyer

Contrary to the claim that the brothers rendered swarams for "everything, all over the place", they sang swarams only for four of the eight pre-RTP kritis.

Considering the fact that divAkara tanujam and kshaNamEva ganyamanyE are very beautiful compositions themselves and that the brothers have sung the former kriti about a thousand five hundred times ever since they learnt it when they were four years old and the latter kriti a few hundred times, it does seem slightly difficult to believe that the kritis were "butchered"!

mahesh3:
Can you tell us in what way the yadukulakAmbhOji kriti was "butchered" and what you found so un-bauLi-ish about bauLi? Or in case you have recorded the concert, can you please put it up so that we can analyse it rationally?

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 15 May 2006, 20:05

Admin/Mods - can you please move the Carnatica Bros. review into a separate thread? Thanks.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 16 May 2006, 05:53

Sashikiran (one of the Carnatica brothers) says:

... not all critics give [an] honest opinion, simply because they are afraid of the repercussions. If the review is negative, the offended performer might call up and question the reviewer's erudition itself.

from http://www.hindu.com/fr/2006/05/12/stor ... 760200.htm

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 16 May 2006, 23:49

Also:

He also insists on voice culture everyday, on akaara sadhana in different ragas to improve raagalapana and kriti renditions. Practising saraliswaras or alankaras in three kaalas should remain a daily exercise even after reaching advanced levels.

Shashikiran seems to be a good-quality chap. I have never heard him perform but hope to in the near future.

Indeed these days the alapanas instead of having good akara or even i-kara and Om-kara, are mostly made up of "ta-da-ri"-kara. There are few more demoralizing aspects of a concert than to see a karnatak musician start an alapana with an effeminate "ta-da-ri" rather than a strong akara. Balamuralikrishna often began his alapanas with something that sounds like "Hari" (a devotional utterance) but after that it was almost pure akara with consonants used only sparingly.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 17 May 2006, 00:13

Indeed these days the alapanas instead of having good akara or even i-kara and Om-kara, are mostly made up of "ta-da-ri"-kara. There are few more demoralizing aspects of a concert than to see a karnatak musician start an alapana with an effeminate "ta-da-ri" rather than a strong akara .

Now that is a biased statement. I dont see what is so effeminate about ta-da-ri. On the contrary it helps to place particular emphasis(gattu, azhuttam). AlApanes in karNATaka sangIta have always begun with tadari. And there is also frequent sprinkling of ta, na tana, tadari etc inbetwen. akAras etc are also used a lot. And there is nothing demoralising about it. Singing AlAp fully in akAra is hindUstAni style.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 17 May 2006, 00:21

nIDAmangaLam krishNamUrti bhAgavatar in one of his upanyAsam's says that the alApanai should have the syllables 'da ra nA' - it is supposed to be because of nArada (the syllables of his name in reverse), and he makes fun of how musicians of his 'contemporaneous times' use syllables like rI and tA, and even nO and so on....!

Anyway, why is it effeminate to use 'ta da ri'? And if it is, then I suppose the vast majority of female performers are OK using it, or should they 'masculinize' their AlAps???
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 17 May 2006, 00:30

I remember one of our friends has already written in the forum elsewhere as to what the tirumale sisters(T.Sarada and T.Sachidevi) from Bangalore say about the use of tadarina. tat+hari etc as "brahma"vAcya.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 17 May 2006, 00:47

rshankar, what is that?

Sri KN Sashikiran has emailed me about this review. He says he is not concerned about the opinion per-se, but about some factual errors and misconceptions in the review.

Anyways I have invited him to share his views here, and he has registered himself. He however has made it clear he doesn't want to defend himself against any of the reviews of his concerts, and that he has registered only to participate generally in topics of interest to him.

Please welcome him to the forum. :cheesy:

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 17 May 2006, 00:55

A warm welcome to Shashikiran. It is a pleasure to have you participate in our discussions.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 17 May 2006, 00:58

Yes, Indeed! Please join us and let us have the benefit of your informed opinions.
Ravi

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 May 2006, 01:22

We are honoured to have you with us shashikiran!
Pl enlighten us on issues and do participate in scholarly discussions.
A very warm welcome to you!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 17 May 2006, 01:53

Hi,

I am not a proponent of "100% pure akara" in alapana - I recognize that consonants are occasionally desirable. Hindustani musicians do not sing alapana in pura akara either.

But in alapana the emphasis should be provided overwhelmingly by voice modulations and short pauses. Sancharas can be defined very well in this manner, without frequently having to use a consonant. Only in a few cases does one need a consonant. Instrumentalists do not have recourse to "ta da ri" but they do just fine.

Frequent use of "ta da ri" "ta da na" syllables is the "easy way out", and it continues to be justified (mainly IMO by those who do not want to take the trouble to improve voice culture).

See for example:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/fr/2 ... 160600.htm

In the case of both, the nature of training makes all the difference. For an average appealing voice, the musician quite often resorts to alphabetics other than the natural akaara, which, in course of time, makes the voice produce sound in double reeds. This deficiency provokes to camouflage it further with more unmusical sound patterns. In a truly gifted artiste he gets lost in the pride of the voice endowment and indulges in trapeze-like exercises to bewilder and compel an ordinary listener to clap vociferously.

I do not believe it is a fact that alapanas in karnatak sangeet have always begun with "ta da ri". Beginning an alapana with "ta da ri" is a sort of cop-out right from the start. Why does a good musician need anything but akara to introduce the raga in the akshiptika section of the alapana ? It hints that the musician either needs the "ta da ri" crutch to avoid exposing a lack of voice culture, or simply utters it by habit.

The "ta da ri" and "ta da na" practices are remnants from old Tamil music as far as I can tell. Interpretations such as "tat+hari" and "NaRaDa" etc are force-fitted.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 17 May 2006, 02:44

I am not a proponent of "100% pure akara" in alapana - I recognize that consonants are occasionally desirable. Hindustani musicians do not sing alapana in pura akara either.

Now you are talking! Ok, excessive tadarina is a hindrance to rAga flow/bhAVa. And yes hindUstAni musicians use some na and rE. But why make sweeping statements such as it is effeminate, demoralising etc. All that is uncalled for.

Sancharas can be defined very well in this manner, without frequently having to use a consonant. Only in a few cases does one need a consonant. Instrumentalists do not have recourse to "ta da ri" but they do just fine.

So why not all vocalists give up singing words and just imitate sounds of some instrument? Someone can say that too. CM is vocalist oriented. The use of "ta" and such syllables in some places is very essential to use as a springboard for some gamakas. You cannot do it with akAras alone.

Frequent use of "ta da ri" "ta da na" syllables is the "easy way out", and it continues to be justified (mainly IMO by those who do not want to take the trouble to improve voice culture).

Is it really? Excessive use of these sylllales could be called a distracting habit. But do musicians really do it consciously as an easy way out or to cover up lapses? I dont believe so.

I do not believe it is a fact that alapanas in karnatak sangeet have always begun with "ta da ri". Beginning an alapana with "ta da ri" is a sort of cop-out right from the start.

Sweeping statement again. Well for at least about a century or even longer, we know that tadarina etc have been used in CM. And surely they didnt suddenly make an appearance a century ago.

The "ta da ri" and "ta da na" practices are remnants from old Tamil music as far as I can tell. Interpretations such as "tat+hari" and "NaRaDa" etc are force-fitted.

Where did you get this from? Are you confusing between one interpretation of tAna(tennA tennA)? tat+hari etc is a similar derivation to wat we say for tAna(ananta ananta). If these syllables were just random choices, why not pa, ma or ka. Why only tadarina. And if they were so recent, why is there a similarity in syllables used between HM and CM?

As it is related, I will mention this here. When explaining tEna/tEnaka, venkaTamakhi clearly mentions that that it is derived from "tat" signifying the "brahmavastu" and "auspiciousness". Now why would it be so difficult for anyone to see a similar derivation for tadarina?

CM-Fan · Post by **CM-Fan** » 17 May 2006, 04:14

Hey Mahesh3,
Your review about the Carnatica Brothers' concert seems to be a deliberate attempt to defame the artists.Looks like you have posted a review of their personality rather than their music rendition.You are supposed to post a review on the performance not the performers right??????
If you havent heard them before why were you so interested in their activities offstage????

I dont think you heard the applauds from the audience & also the accolades they got from the organisers.
The brothers have great qualities off/onstage.They are gregarious,spontaneous,extremely humble & modest especially after being top notch artists.Their music has a class of its own.

Mahesh,if the concert was so bad why did you stay for the full concert??????

Wonder what you were doing in the concert.You were probably counting the number of people in the audience & reading their faces.I was one amongst the audience & loved their concert.So did my family & friends.I have heard them many times before.Everytime I hear them I become a bigger fan of theirs.
Sri K.N.Shashikiran and Chitravina P.Ganesh sang with great zest as usual esp for a morning concert.
They were accompanied by Mysore Srikanth (Violin) and veterans Vellore Ramabhadran and Srimushnam Raja Rao (double-mridangam).I heard the concert was a unique one because the double-mridangam accompanying these two top-artistes was the first of its kind. All the artistes co-ordinated extremely well and produced some memorable music.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 17 May 2006, 04:33

Looks like you have posted a review of their personality rather than their music rendition.You are supposed to post a review on the performance not the performers right??????.

Hang on guys! This is what mahesh3 wrote

They dont deserve a peak-time concert in my considered opinion, irrespective of all the activities they r involved with outside of the concert stage.

Now does this sound like a comment on or review of their personality? I dont think so. Not even on the first read. I think he specifically referred to carnatica and website related activities. That was meant(As far as I could see)in a positive light rather than as a negative statement.

CM-Fan · Post by **CM-Fan** » 17 May 2006, 07:50

Firstly,
Mahesh3 says"They dont deserve a peak-time concert in my considered opinion, irrespective of all the activities they are involved with outside of the concert stage."
Its just an irrelevant statement.The timing of their concert & their activities outside concert stage has no connection.
drshrikaanth,I dont think Mahesh has referred to their website in this statement.Its just your perception.My perception of his statement is totally different.He is just annoyed that the Carnatica Brothers got a peak time slot.He thinks they didnt deserve that slot,well I think they very much deserved that slot. They did not get a peak time slot just because of their website.They got that slot because of their caliber.
Secondly,
Mahesh3 says "they(the carnatica brothers) were very pleased with their own performance."
isnt this statement about their behaviour??????????
Hey,lets all discuss more about Carnatic music related issues!!!!!!!!!!!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 17 May 2006, 08:04

Dear Dr. Shrikaanth,

First of all, please do not take any of my comments as being disruptive or personal. I am a great lover of karnatak sangeet and have learned it for over 20 years. I have decided to join you gentlemen on this fine forum - not for argumentation but for discussion and for an increase in knowledge for myself and all others involved.

So why not all vocalists give up singing words and just imitate sounds of some instrument? Someone can say that too. CM is vocalist oriented. The use of "ta" and such syllables in some places is very essential to use as a springboard for some gamakas. You cannot do it with akAras alone.

I never said we should give up singing words. All of bharatiya shastriya sangeet is rooted in vocalism. This makes the current situation even more unfortunate.

The tendency to use syllables in alapana has become so entrenched that today if I suggest that these are unnecessary, many people will not believe it. My dear sir, not only is it possible to sing an alapana with akara alone, but it will positively shine. If one practises janta varisa/datu varisa/tara-and mandrasthayi varisa/alankaras in akaara regularly, it is not only possible - but you would not want to sing alapana any other way again. Just try it for yourself.

Take Bhairavi - you cannot find a weightier and more karnatak raga than that. Believe me, with proper practice you can perfectly achieve all the gamakas and brighas - even the fine phrases such as "g r s" and "S r n d". And all this without unnecessary syllables and clutter. Additionally, the voice culture that enables one to do this will take one's music - in entirety - to a different level altogether. Why the musicians of today fail to understand this is beyond me - of course, commercialism is an obvious reason, but I think our musicians need to be more confident that this is a "seller's market".

Starting an alapana with "ta da ri" is effeminate because, as I said, if one cannot start with a strong, clear akaara to enunciate the raga, then it does not speak well for one's training. Yes, it is difficult! But karnatak sangeet is much more difficult than the current crop of musicians seem to think.

Sweeping statement again. Well for at least about a century or even longer, we know that tadarina etc have been used in CM. And surely they didnt suddenly make an appearance a century ago.

I did not mean that alapanas never started with this phrase. I meant that not all musicians begin their alapanas with this phrase.

Where did you get this from? Are you confusing between one interpretation of tAna(tennA tennA)? tat+hari etc is a similar derivation to wat we say for tAna(ananta ananta). If these syllables were just random choices, why not pa, ma or ka. Why only tadarina. And if they were so recent, why is there a similarity in syllables used between HM and CM?

As it is related, I will mention this here. When explaining tEna/tEnaka, venkaTamakhi clearly mentions that that it is derived from "tat" signifying the "brahmavastu" and "auspiciousness". Now why would it be so difficult for anyone to see a similar derivation for tadarina?

I am always very wary of interpretations that rationalize these things in terms of "auspiciousness". Again, let me be clear - there is nothing wrong with it per se. It is a nice way to rationalize practices and traditions. You can create your own reality. This is one greatness of Bharat and bharatiya sanskriti.

Venkatamakhin was a late scholar - chaturdandi prakashika is a late-medieval work. So his interpretation could have been just that - his own interpretation. There can be any number of reasons for the choice of these syllables. For example, choice of "ta", "da" and "na" could be just imitation of the sound of string instruments and drums when plucked or struck. Percussionists generally use syllables like "da" "dhim" "tom" "ta" "ki" "ta" "ka", which very well may be just imitations of the sound of a drum, plus a dose of imagination.

In the same vein, Bharata's natyashastra mentions that shadja is like the cry of a peacock, rishabha is like the sound of a bull, etc. Now there is no scientific rationale whatsoever (that I am aware of) to liken the cry of a peacock to shadja, or the cry of a heron to madhyama. Even if one ranks the pitch of the sounds made by these various animals/birds, there is no correlation at all. Clearly, these are very nice and inspiring allegories. Also, remember that the Indians are masters of using mnemonics for all sorts of things. Panini for instance used a large number of nonsense syllables in Ashtadhyayi as mnemonics.

Again, it very well may be that indeed these syllables originate from "brahmavakyas" and "mahavakyas". It is not particularly relevant. But when a practice goes to an extent that it starts to stunt the development of an art form, then that is unfortunate. Today we Indians are living longer, keep much better health, and have the benefit of modern voice culture methods. Why don't they take advantage of these facilities rather than hide behind the microphone ? Our great karnatak ragas have no equal on earth, if sung properly with a totally different level of voice culture than exists in the field today. Many of us go to kacheris and applaud the artistes, without realizing that there is an entire new level of achievement that we should be asking of our musicians if they are to deserve being called a "vidvan".

Best Wishes,
Sangeet Rasik

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 17 May 2006, 18:49

Folks,

I have said enough, and what I have said was a personal opinion based upon my attending the concert.

A few points worth mentioning:

For one, I think the Carnatica bros are involved in several useful off-stage activities that serve to bring up the profile of carnatic music. Particularly, I remember the New Year 2006 event , which got a fair bit of forum time on sangeetham. I was very impressed that such a great effort had been made to have such a venture on New Years eve.

With that in mind, I went to their concert with great expectations. I dint get the vibe however, and no, my decision wasn't made based on the audience size. Also, I never meant to suggest that they got the peak-time concert because of their off-stage activities, nor is it my wish to bash the carnatica bros. I dont think it is in my mental-make up to say hurtful things to individuals. My take was and is that any artist (not just carnatica bros) ...irrepective of all the other noble/ignoble activities they may be involved in offstage, should be viewed objectively based upon performances on the stage rather than off it.

In general, we post here to learn and respect other people's views. If there is a violent, loud and inane reaction to everything that is written on here, it serves no purpose either to us or the artists themselves. I have not indulged in artist bashing, and it is just a misconception of people reading between the lines.

To those who think I made a mistake in not enjoying that particular concert..well, we can all agree to disagree.

My sincere best wishes to the artists,

As CMFAN said, We should get back to talk about music...

Regards to everybody!!

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 17 May 2006, 19:38

Many of us go to kacheris and applaud the artistes, without realizing that there is an entire new level of achievement that we should be asking of our musicians if they are to deserve being called a "vidvan".

If you feel they do not, then why attend concerts of current and upcoming artists? Simple!! Stick to the recordings that live in your attic and stop making such a fuss.

Forgive me, but I am growing tired of this phrase 'voice culture'. Have you defined it explicitly anywhere? If not, please do.

The "ta da ri" and "ta da na" practices are remnants from old Tamil music

Now the mods/admin read that comment, I haven't seen them condemn this comment! Plain and simple, it was in "bad taste" and was a limited, narrow minded view. It was more disruptive and personal, for argumentation, rather than discussion (despite what your intention might have been). It increases others knowledge by 0 in terms of real substance as it gives others the wrong idea!

then it does not speak well for one's training

It seems you question the training of almost all CM vocalists (past and present) who do use such phrases. Should we question your training as your views do not conform with stuff (that is now considered) traditional CM? I have heard some of the amateur artists try enunciating a rAgA with akara, and it certainly is daunting! The majority of artists seem to do a fine and much better job using the phrases as a springboard.

Speaking of bhairavi
Some years ago, someone reviewed a concert of a female vocalist. He complained her alapana in bhairavi was full of bruga exercises (obviously in akara). On the other hand, he complained her RTP consisted of too many 'ta nom ta nom ta nom' phrases etc. Point being, the ideal alapana consists of a balance. It's only more problematic when there is excess in either direction.

If one practises janta varisa/datu varisa/tara-and mandrasthayi varisa/alankaras in akaara regularly, it is not only possible - but you would not want to sing alapana any other way again

Now this is a truely simplistic and amateur assumption! I like singing alapana with all the elements mixed (not just akara), so the assumption does not hold true for everyone concerned. Perhaps reread the paragraph I wrote on bhairavi above to emphasise the point.

In case you haven't noticed, voices of current vocalists are totally different to those of yesteryears. They learn the same stuff, but other factors play a key role, such as lifestyle changes. You shouldn't let yourself be trapped in the 'romantic past'.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 17 May 2006, 19:59

The use of "ta" and such syllables in some places is very essential to use as a springboard for some gamakas. You cannot do it with akAras alone.

Cannot? That's not necessarily true. It's just more easier and more pleasant in executing such gamakas this way (which is why artists have been adopting the technique for ages).

Something worth pondering. What genres of music adopt "aa" or other vowels? What genres adopt "ta da ri" "ta da na" "ta na" etc. ? Why eliminate such phrases when they has been associated with CM/HM for so long? Would the change be worth it? (akaras instead of ta da ri in alapanas)

Sorry mahesh, just saw your post. I agree, back to normal talk on CM...

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 17 May 2006, 21:04

If you feel they do not, then why attend concerts of current and upcoming artists? Simple!! Stick to the recordings that live in your attic and stop making such a fuss.

You're right - I don't attend concerts of the current crop for the most part, as I have been mostly frustrated.

However, it is not quite so simple. I happen to have deep regard for this music, and hence I would like to discuss how it can be improved. Forgive me if I sound rude, but one thing I notice in karnatak sangeet is that a lot of effort is spent in justifying practices that have lowered the quality and scope of this art form, rather than attempt to mitigate these ill-effects. In general, this does not bode well for any institution.

Forgive me, but I am growing tired of this phrase 'voice culture'. Have you defined it explicitly anywhere? If not, please do.

I could write a very long post on that. Briefly, I am referring to:

1) absolute sruti alignment,
2) a range of more than two octaves without fake or nasal voice,
3) a strong voice that is produced from nabhi-hrt-kantha-rasana-nasa, not just kantha-rasana-nasa.
4) ability to render janta and datu prayogas, as well as gamakas and brighas, without sacrificing any of the above.
5) breath control without sacrificing any of the above.

How many of the current crop can claim to have achieved these basic requirements ? Intelligence, imagination, and genius are very welcome traits, but they are simply not substitutes for voice culture.

I will refer you to a much better-worded discourse on the very subject:

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/ms/2 ... 040500.htm

The "ta da ri" and "ta da na" practices are remnants from old Tamil music
Now the mods/admin read that comment, I haven't seen them condemn this comment! Plain and simple, it was in "bad taste" and was a limited, narrow minded view. It was more disruptive and personal, for argumentation, rather than discussion (despite what your intention might have been). It increases others knowledge by 0 in terms of real substance as it gives others the wrong idea!

I do not understand what on earth was in bad taste. I simply mentioned this to best of my understanding, i.e. the syllables used today are inheritances from the music of the old Tamils. I have no idea what you found narrow-minded in this.

It seems you question the training of almost all CM vocalists (past and present) who do use such phrases. Should we question your training as your views do not conform with stuff (that is now considered) traditional CM?

You are absolutely free to question my views on their merit, but not based on how much they "conform' to what is considered traditional.

I have heard some of the amateur artists try enunciating a rAgA with akara, and it certainly is daunting! The majority of artists seem to do a fine and much better job using the phrases as a springboard.

I do not know about the amateur artistes, but I hope they are not performing publicly (also see my last comment at the bottom). I agree, if one cannot enunciate a raga with akara it is better to mumble consonants to help one along and develop a presentable alapana. My point is that if proper attention is paid to voice culture, what you metion above will not be daunting but in fact extremely pleasant.

Now this is a truely simplistic and amateur assumption! I like singing alapana with all the elements mixed (not just akara), so the assumption does not hold true for everyone concerned. Perhaps reread the paragraph I wrote on bhairavi above to emphasise the point.

This is not simplistic nor amateur. I don't want to get into a "my alapana is better than yours" slanging-match. Perhaps I focused on the wrong issue. Indeed the use of syallables in alapana is not the cause of the problem but only a symptom. I will be happy even if the present-day musicians just focus on better voice training - forget my earlier comment on 'ta da ri". I am willing to bet that the tendency to use extensive consonants will automatically disappear to a great extent.

In case you haven't noticed, voices of current vocalists are totally different to those of yesteryears. They learn the same stuff, but other factors play a key role, such as lifestyle changes. You shouldn't let yourself be trapped in the 'romantic past'.

I think this viewpoint can cause great damage to our music. Lest I be accused of not being a "hardcore" karnatak guy, let me emphasize that I am. However, let us look at hindustani classical music and european classical music. Surely lifestyles in their geographic areas have also changed, but the basics of voice training are still essential otherwise nobody will listen. Why should karnatak sangeet be any different ?

This is a deep-rooted malaise, since today's young musicians will be tomorrow's gurus, and I am concerned that they will teach a withered, effeminate form of karnatak music to the next generation rather than the virile, shastraic form that it really is. That withered form of karnatak music will have only a very limited appeal. In the past we have imported many innovations from outside, it is time to make a serious change in the way voice training is imparted in karnatak sangeet. I hope some of the influential figures in this field read this forum and consider these views in all seriousness.

Best Wishes,
Sangeet Rasik

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 18 May 2006, 10:31

I appreciate your response.

"Old Tamils". Is it so difficult to express this a little more eloquently? Fair enough it's to the best of your understanding. It doesn't justify anything about the points you were making in regards to 'ta da ri na' though, or was it?

No, extensive consonants will NOT automatically disappear to a great extent. There are examples of artists who are very capable of complex bruga sangathis, etc. whom execute a lot during an alapana, but still use extensive consonants. Some do were/are within all 5 basic requirements you mentioned earlier, but still use the phrases because it's accepted and obviously very well received by audiences (except you, and perhaps a few who agree with you - the overwhelming minority?).

Btw, those nameless amateur artists did perform publicly. Mumble consonants? It's like the stamp on CM! It already is extremely pleasant hearing (for example) a karaharapriyA alapana beginning 'ta da ri na' than "aa aa aa aa" which is a phrase often taken again later in the alapana anyhow! But you've said you'll lay off on the issue, so we'll leave that bit at that.

Thanks for defining voice culture reasonably, but succinctly (the way I like it).
Breath control doesn't seem to be too much of a problem in concerts, or so I feel. Gamakas, brugas etc. are rendered more effectively by some, than others, but that's entirely with the individual and his/her learning. This same problem existed years back though. Again, "strong" voice depends on the individual and often can't be helped (even with exercises like akara). Same goes for octaves. Sruthi alignment comes with practise and talent. Each artist is talented in their own element, but ultimately each artist is talented in their own flaws too. For all we know, artists might have practised day-in, day-out and still not managed to achieve perfect shruthi alignment.
You seem to be making it sound like Vocal CM currently and past, has been imperfect per se. Try not to expect perfection in ALL areas, or you will be unsatisfied eternally. Even if I am a perfectionist (or not), I won't expect something close to impossible.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 18 May 2006, 10:32

"You are absolutely free to question my views on their merit, but not based on how much they "conform' to what is considered traditional."

I already did question it, indirectly, with/without your approval. I welcome you to explain your above quote in more detail though.

"rather than mitigate these ill-effects"

There is a minority that feel 'ill effects' from the current modifications made in rendering CM. If people feel such modifications are not ill effects, then why would anyone try mitigate these?

"this does not bode well for any institution. "

Perhaps to you, but the majority in audiences feel otherwise, or CM would be totally extinct by now.

Please get it through your head, CM is not withered or effeminate, nor was it ever so far. There will always be a few cases. However, this does not mean CM generally goes to their level. Does it?

"That...form of karnatak music will have only a very limited appeal"

On the contrary! That is yet another limited view, as it's not a fact! More people are becoming interested in current CM as it is.

"I hope some of the influential figures in this field read this forum and consider these views in all seriousness. "

I sincerely hope otherwise!!

Voice culture as such, is integral to any vocalist and his/her performance. You can't expect voice cultures like DKP or ARI or MLV or GNB or MSS or NCV to be miraculously reborn. Look at Tamil film music back then, and now. Look at the voices back then and now. You will realise that some things can't be helped.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 18 May 2006, 20:00

Voice culture as such, is integral to any vocalist and his/her performance. You can't expect voice cultures like DKP or ARI or MLV or GNB or MSS or NCV to be miraculously reborn. Look at Tamil film music back then, and now. Look at the voices back then and now. You will realise that some things can't be helped.

Without elaborating too much on this subject, I will say that this is a defeatist viewpoint. First of all, some of the voice cultures in your list (such as DKP) were not quite top-notch. But people like BMK, KJY, GNB, ARI, MSS, MLV etc achieved their voice culture primarily through training not through miracles. Even in hindustani music I do not hear laments such as "will another Amir Khan or Ghulam Ali ever be born" ? Again, there are no miracles involved - just better training. With a well-oiled training system in place, there is no doubt that what you call "miracles" will be a rational result.

There may be some who fail to achieve the goal even after extensive training. This is the case in every field. But then again, there will be many who will be successful as well. I am convinced that our music form is becoming a weak, excessively intellectualized form. Weakness are swept under the carpet by complex rationalizations.

There are other systemic problems - e.g., unlike hindustani sangeet which has developed in several centers all over India, karnatak sangeet has suffered due to Chennai-centrism. Other important centers - such as Trivandrum, Mysore/Bangalore, Hyderabad, and even Delhi (where there is a signifcant concentration of karnatak musicians and teachers) have not been developed fully to pursue their own concept of karnatak music. This gives karnatak sangeet a very limited regional appeal which is different from the pan-Indian orientation of Dikshitar and Maharaj Swati Tirunal.

Similarly, there is excessive Tyagaraja-centrism. I do not have anything against Tyagaraja or his musical genius, nor am I denouncing him. However, there is no reason why there should be only a "tyagaraja aradhana" every year in Tamil Nadu and in Cleveland. Personally I think Dikshitar and Swati Tirunal were greater composers who also did greater service to karnatak sangeet. At the least we should put Tyagaraja, Dikshitar, Syama Sastri, and Swati Tirunal on equal footing, not one person on a higher pedestal.

Dikshitar's navavarana and navagrha krtis, and Swati Tirunal's navaratri krtis, are every bit as wonderful as Tyagaraja's pancharatna krtis. Why are they not accorded the same respect (in practice, not just in words) ? Between them, Dikshitar and Swati Tirunal have almost 1000 compositions (compared to Tyagaraja's 600-700). Yet in a modern kacheri one will be lucky to hear a couple of krtis from these two composers.

Moreover, Dikshitar and Swati Tirunal's Sanskrit krtis can be fully enjoyed and learned by any pandit/ustad or student anywhere in India. There was one hindustani ustad Abdul Karim Khan who rendered a Tyagaraja composition in kharaharapriya ("rama ni samanam evaru"), going to the trouble of learning the Telugu sahitya. Why not make it easier to disseminate karnatak sangeet by using the Sanskrit krtis. In modern kacheris we see all sorts of items derived from north india (bhajans, ashtapadis, abhangs) - why not the reverse in hindustani concerts ? There are have been some nice karnatak music lec-dems in IIT Madras (recordings available online) - how about a few in IIT Delhi/Bombay/Kanpur etc ?

But I'll save these for a later discussion. I hope they generate food for thought. I am not ranting, but raising issues of which I don't find any discussion on fine forums such as this one. Maybe I will start a separate thread.

Best Wishes,
Sangeet Rasik

Mahesh · Post by **Mahesh** » 18 May 2006, 21:54

Similarly, there is excessive Tyagaraja-centrism. I do not have anything against Tyagaraja or his musical genius, nor am I denouncing him. However, there is no reason why there should be only a "tyagaraja aradhana" every year in Tamil Nadu and in Cleveland. Personally I think Dikshitar and Swati Tirunal were greater composers who also did greater service to karnatak sangeet. At the least we should put Tyagaraja, Dikshitar, Syama Sastri, and Swati Tirunal on equal footing, not one person on a higher pedestal.

Dikshitar's navavarana and navagrha krtis, and Swati Tirunal's navaratri krtis, are every bit as wonderful as Tyagaraja's pancharatna krtis. Why are they not accorded the same respect (in practice, not just in words) ? Between them, Dikshitar and Swati Tirunal have almost 1000 compositions (compared to Tyagaraja's 600-700). Yet in a modern kacheri one will be lucky to hear a couple of krtis from these two composers.

I agree with this 100%. No offense meant to the immortal Thygaraja Swami, however I'd like to see Dikshitar's, Swathi Thirunal krithis more often. Personally, I like to hear more Tamil songs, as that's my mother tounge. Given "Ninnunera" and "Nin arul" in Panthuvarali, I'd go for the Tamil Thyagrajar's version, with "Innal kuti inbamuti indrajala vidhai katti" neraval. This has been discussed at length before.

Please note, in these forums I'm Mahesh not mahesh3, just in case people mistake identities!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 18 May 2006, 22:51

I agree with this 100%. No offense meant to the immortal Thygaraja Swami, however I'd like to see Dikshitar's, Swathi Thirunal krithis more often. Personally, I like to hear more Tamil songs, as that's my mother tounge. Given "Ninnunera" and "Nin arul" in Panthuvarali, I'd go for the Tamil Thyagrajar's version, with "Innal kuti inbamuti indrajala vidhai katti" neraval. This has been discussed at length before.

Actually, I think the vernaculars have a pretty decent future in karnatak sangeet (as they should), so I am not overly concerned about this area. Telugu, of course, is well entrenched so no worries there. In kacheris of Tamil Nadu musicians we already hear a good number of Tamil compositions of Papanasam, Uthukadu, Bharati etc. Similarly in Kerala and Karnataka musicians' kacheris we find a decent number of Malayalam/Manipravalam and Kannada compositions in fairly appropriate proportion to the number of concert-worthy pieces existing in these two languages.

In my opinion, considering the current state of affairs the biggest "losers" in terms of major composers are Dikshitar and Maharaj Swati Tirunal (and maybe also Maharaj Jayachamaraja Wodeyar), and Sanskrit in terms of language. This is singularly ironic since these composers, and Sanskrit, represent the most pan-Indian appeal of the karnatak sangeet. It is well known, for example, that Maharaj Karan Singh of Srinagar is an enthusiastic votary of Dikshitar's Sanskrit krtis.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 18 May 2006, 23:02

Similarly in Kerala and Karnataka musicians' kacheris we find a decent number of Malayalam/Manipravalam and Kannada compositions in fairly appropriate proportion to the number of concert-worthy pieces existing in these two languages. .

O really! So you know what compositions are available in each of these languages.

And I dont think sanskrit is losing out much. Sufficient number of artistes do sing sufficient number of compositions in the language.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 18 May 2006, 23:17

I agree with DRS on that point. Sangeet - have you been to a sufficient number of kutcheris in each state? (it seems like otherwise!)

I will read your other posts later...

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 May 2006, 08:11

O really! So you know what compositions are available in each of these languages.

I am not sure I understand your comment fully - but yes, I do have a pretty good idea of the extent to which Malayalam and Kannada compositions are rendered. I did not mean to say I have attended many kacheris in many states of India - I was referring to kacheris of musicians belonging to Kerala and Karnataka. And yes, I have attended quite a few.

Regarding Malayalam - there is a substantial repertoire of compositions (krtis, varnas, padas) by composers such as Swati Tirunal, Ravivarman ("Irayimman") Tampi, Govinda Marar, and Ramachandran Nair, which are quite popular in Kerala. These have been popularized by a number of musicians such as Sankaran Nambudiri, Ashwati Tirunal, Omanakutty, Arundhati etc. Not all of them feel compelled to perform regularly in Chennai sangeet sabhas. In Karnataka musicians like Srikantan, M.S. Sheela etc have been busy popularizing devarnamas of various Haridasas (notably Purandara). There must be well over a thousand devarnamas of which a few have become quite popular. The only questions are: how many are concert-worthy ? And of those, how many can be converted to krti-format and presented as main items ?

This brings me to another set of questions that I have had occasion to ponder: Why Compose ? And what compositions are concert-worthy and what are appropriate for personal satisfaction ?

Karnatak sangeet has already a vast repertoire of compositions that have not been fully explored. As I mentioned, even major composers like Dikshitar and Swati Tirunal have a great many first-class compositions pending to be popularized. For example, it is astounding to me that there is neither hair nor hide of great ragamalikas of Swati Tirunal such as "Pannagendra Sayana" and "Kamalajasya" in the Chennai circuit.

So one may ask - why compose more ?

In my mind, if one considers a new composition that will be concert-worthy, it should be for a specific reason, such as:

1) Define a new raga. BMK's compositions are a fine example. He has indeed created a unique niche among modern composers by applying his genius to delineate new and even strange ragas. He has been successful.

2) Eludicate some yet-unexplored aspect of an existing raga. Usually this applies to ragas that are not yet major ragas but for one reason or another have been relatively ignored, or which have been recently imported from hindustani music. One would be hard-pressed to find something new to say in Kalyani or Sankarabharanam. Dikshitar, Swati Tirunal etc have done a great job of defining the karnatak versions of several hindustani ragas through their krtis.

3) Explore some new raga-sahitya-sruti-laya relationships. In karnatak compositions the raga is strongly intertwined with sahitya and sruti and laya. Innovations are still possible in this area. BMK is a great example with his raga-thaya-malikas, innovative tillanas and swaraksharic krtis.

4) Popularize karnatak sangeet among the "masses" by composing in a certain language. For example, Tyagaraja reached millions of Telugu-speakers by deciding to compose in a fairly de-Sanskritized version of that language, even though most of the resulting krtis are of just passable quality in the aesthetic sense. Papanasam Sivan did the same among the Tamils. At this point Malayalam and Kannada (the other two major vernaculars of South India) also have a substantial number of compositions that can be used to reach people who otherwise could not fully appreciate classical music.

Of course, one is always free to compose anything for one's own pleasure and spiritual satisfaction. But my comment on rendering compositions in proportion to their concert-worthiness was motivated in part by the above considerations.

Best Wishes,
Sangeet Rasik

Anusha · Post by **Anusha** » 19 May 2006, 13:54

An appeal to rasikas

I really appreciate your concert reviews,
And, the expression of your objective views,
Any quick and authentic information flow,
Is indeed valuable to people who want to know.

All the same, whatever we put on share,
Should be written with sincerity and care,
While it is a known fact that ART is supreme,
Without the ARTIST, it would have occurred not even in our dream!!

It is our duty that to the artist we be kind,
And not disturb his sensitive mind,
Also, sincere music lovers are misled
When unwanted comments are repeatedly read.

Whether or not, you have a grudge,
DonÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚Â¢t become an official judge,
At least, when you realize,
DonÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚Â¢t hesitate to apologize,
Of yourself, donÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚Â¢t make a mockery,
By claiming that you agree to disagree!!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 19 May 2006, 14:59

Boy ! was I getting bored with too much sanskrit here.
at last an english poem !!

On a serious note , I second the appeal.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 19 May 2006, 19:44

An appeal to rasikas

I understand that my views may create some controversy. Indeed I intend them to be provocative - some may react in strong opposition, others may take a more thoughtful view. I am not just writing nonsense - what I have written is only after considerable thought. I hope the overall impact - even if not obvious immediately - is positive.

Best Wishes,
Sangeet Rasik

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 May 2006, 14:00

Intrigued by the use of the word 'effeminate' by SR, I looked it up. The two M-W dictionary meanings are:

1 : having feminine qualities untypical of a man : not manly in appearance or manner
2 : marked by an unbecoming delicacy or overrefinement

SR, Which one do you mean in relation to starting an alapana with 'ta da ri' ?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 May 2006, 06:44

Perhaps I may add to the Muse invoked by anusha

Observe the language well in what you write
And let there be no offence or hidden bite
A barbarous phrase no reader will approve
Nor bombast, lies, or misrepresentation love.

Freedom of expression is a birth right
But that right cannot provoke a fight
Freedom to swing your stick does end
At the point where does my nose descend

Learn and respect the rules of this Forum
Always maintain self respect and decorum
Music is our topic say something nice
And quit chatting about men and mice

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 22 May 2006, 07:18

Intrigued by the use of the word 'effeminate' by SR, I looked it up. The two M-W dictionary meanings are:

1 : having feminine qualities untypical of a man : not manly in appearance or manner
2 : marked by an unbecoming delicacy or overrefinement

SR, Which one do you mean in relation to starting an alapana with 'ta da ri' ?

I definitely meant #2. The dictionary couldn't have said it better. A synonym is "effete".

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 May 2006, 09:19

OK..'effete' brings out a vibe of 'soft, delicate or pampered or lacking in strength etc.'. ( usually used in a negative sense to describe softness when boldness or aggressiveness is expected ).

Still trying to understand the usage of that word to describe your problem with starting an alapana with 'ta da ri'..

To me, akaara sounds softer than 'ta da ri'...

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 23 May 2006, 17:40

To me, akaara sounds softer than 'ta da ri'...

With an artist like Bombay Jayashree, that would be the case. With a more open throated style (like Sirkali Govindarajan or Nithyashree), 'ta da ri na' is softer.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 23 May 2006, 18:18

voice cultures in your list (such as DKP) were not quite top-notch.

Claiming any artist received their voice culture primarily through training is just an opinion. DKP did not receive her voice culture through a miracle. She did undergo training. Btw, have you even listened to DKP in her youngest years? It's amazing. Later...it began to break...which seems to be what you base your assertion(s) on.

excessively intellectualized form. Weakness are swept under the carpet by complex rationalizations.

Wow, how impressive

if only you followed what you preached.

I don't give Syama Sastri or Swathi Thirunal equal footing, however they were close. I think Thyagaraja embodied so many different types of krithis, generic elements etc. Not that the other composers did not, but there were a few overlapping similarities I felt between the other composers music (I can't even explain what the similarity is, perhaps it's just something about the notation method...) Papanasam Sivan was called the Tamil Thyagarajar for having a similar, yet different mixed bag to Thyagaraja's.

we already hear a good number of Tamil compositions of Papanasam, Uthukadu, Bharati etc.

Perhaps so. Just like the Swathi Thirunal, Dikshithar & Syama Sastri krithis lying around, so are MANY Tamil pieces and other Malayalam Swathi Thirunal etc. pieces. Your attempt to appear objective is not working.

We hear thousands of Sanskrit pieces which the majority don't understand. The language is dead. The music is dying. Finally, they use a few more Tamil, Kannada, Telugu compositions and crowds begin to appreciate it a little more, and now we have the minority crying otherwise. How many million Dikshithar centred kutcheris do we hear? How many kutcheris have we heard centred on Papanasam Sivan, Gopalakrishna Bharathi or Oothukkadu? (I heard a DKJ Papanasam Sivan one, and one on Subramania Bharathiyar by Sowmya, but that's about it!) Yes, keep sanskrit, but no more than what's there already please!!!

And of those, how many can be converted to krti-format and presented as main items ?

If Bharathiyar's can, why not the others??

if one considers a new composition that will be concert-worthy, it should be for a specific reason

This is exactly what I meant by narrow minded views! Rendering other compositions in proportion to "concert worthiness" should not have to be based on those 4 reasons entirely. Considerable thought? No where near enough! Mentioning the following last in your list indicates a very limited understanding of the driving force behind CM.

one is always free to compose anything for one's own pleasure and spiritual satisfaction