Style is not TRADITION !

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 17 Jun 2009, 17:26

coolkarni wrote:I had to make you understand death early , in order to make you understand Life.

Om tat sat ! That is the only wisdom needed ever by anyone at any time. Any activity that distracts from this focus, which is to say 99% of all human activity, is just idle chatter which will melt away when the focus is regained. I wish I had had the opportunity to meet the cool senior Cool senior.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Jun 2009, 01:20

My mother had similar ideas, practiced through never shielding me from the reality of life and death in the menagerie of pets we had.

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 18 Jun 2009, 09:44

Although admittedly I didn't read everybody's post on this forums, I feel that we should get a clear consensus on what exactly style and tradition is.

Personally, I feel that the title in this thread is wrong, style is what brings out the beauty of carnatic music. But then again, what exactly is style? Was Ariyakudi sir's current concert format considered "style", one can easily call it tradition now, but what was it when he first thought of it. What about the way he sung, his fast paced, racing through each song "style". Is this considered a "style"? What about Mali sir? What he played was "traditional" wasn't it, but you certainly couldn't say it wasn't "stylish".

What is the beauty of Carnatic music? IMO, the beauty of Carnatic music is to make infinite possibilities within a finite number of "rules". So as long as you abide by these "rules", the "style" doesn't matter correct? Again look at Mali sir, what he played (when he played!) was certainly unorthodox, different, and dare I say stylish, but the tradition within the music stayed because he wouldn't change the ragam, he would change the sahityam, or the thalam, or the krithi... he would just play it in a new rendered way.

If one does not render the krithi, how would the audience feel the song? How would one obtain the bakthi, or bhavam? Would it be better to just sing it in a mono-tonic voice, no outlining of the ragam, no sarams in it, just the song and that's it? One MUST, render it, however within limits, and this is where the style AND tradition comes from.

I hope I didn't miss the boat completely, and an talking about something completely different from the conversation but this was my interpretation of style and tradition.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 18 Jun 2009, 11:18

Dear Cienu,
I am giving the gist of the thread in three bullet points, as suggested by you, as given below:

* Tradition is Classical Excellence, time-tested and everlasting. It is a crystallization in music, which has captured the vision of eternity gained by the Great Maestros in their sublimally creative moments.

* That which is truly Classical needs no updating/contemporising, sine it is not dated. It is eternal. Pursuit of Tradition is a path in which creativity is not shut out, as commonly understood.

* Whith the growth of Styles and personal interpretations, the ideal integrity suffers eclipse. This is the major factor, contributing to the declince in quality and Classical excellence in Karnataka Music.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 18 Jun 2009, 11:55

Dear mridangamkid,
Thanks for your comments.

1) The discussions in this thread, if carefully read by you will give clarity on the distinction between Tradition-Bani-Style.

2) Great Maestro Ariyakudi created the Cutcheri format consisting of three and half hour or Four hours, keeping the Manodharma, pata integrity and the ideals, uncompromisingly. The New and revised format was wonderful addition to Tradition and has become trail blazing. The need was time constraint and he thought and gave tbe four hour format. Earlier, there was no time constraint/limits. Limitation was only the Vidwath , Imagination and health of the performers. Ariyakudi established Bani, not style.

3) Great Genius Mali's path of both Bani and Style, keeping the tradition alive. His vision consisted of Primacy for Melody - sunadam, leisurely pace to give scope for highly creative and imaginative sangathi and sancharas. He ushered in technical improvisations in playing the flute in KM, which has become the Tradition. No doubt, with his style i.e. personal interpretations, ideal of pata integrity suffered, at times. He prefered to be adventurous practioner and performer. Mali, One Man University, with all the flutists becoming either Shishyas or Ekalavya Shishyas ! But he was testing constantly and teasing the listeners/rasikas and accompaniments and testing the patience, as a performer, which is against the Tradition. This Style is to be eschwed.

4) Alapana - Kriti - Neraval - Swaraprastharam - Ragam/Talam/Pallavi - devotional - padams - javali - vrittam/slokas - mangalam, being the Tradition, with Primacy for Sangita and Sahithya, are there any impediments to be creative and appealling ?. Tradition offers unlimited opportunities for the explorer. With strict pata integrity,insights , imagination and practice Great Maestros keep the tradition, alive.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 18 Jun 2009, 12:02

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 19 Jun 2009, 00:14

We cannot invent new meanings to words like 'tradition'. To do so would lead to linguistic chaos. I cannot say the word 'apple' means a pomegranate.

There is no relation between tradition and classical excellence!

We all should be capable of better english than that. There is no need to assign new meanings to common words.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 Jun 2009, 02:14

skris --- that is a breathy of fresh air in the conversation. Can't beat it, so won't try!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 19 Jun 2009, 05:38

skris - I like that

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 19 Jun 2009, 07:20

srkris wrote:I cannot say the word 'apple' means a pomegranate.

Yes, you can ! Sort of.

The name "pomegranate" derives from Latin pomum ("apple") and granatus ("seeded"). This has influenced the common name for pomegranate in many languages (e.g., German Granatapfel, seeded apple) (from wikipedia).

That said, I agree that the word tradition has nothing to do with classical excellence.

Not just inventing new meanings, people have also invented new retroactive etymologies! For example a friend of mine insists that the word ethnomusicology derives from the study of "ethanayo" (many in Tamil) kinds of music

. In time, the original word ethanayomusicology got shortened to ethnomusicology.

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 19 Jun 2009, 08:17

It is unfortunate that English language has been chosen for discussing this subject. It does not have a word or phrase to describe what Munirao seriously feels about our music.
I totally share with MuniraoÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s concern for the purity of the music that has been handed over to us by great masters. We should discuss more about that subject, but instead, we are going on contesting on the meaning of these words.

For understanding the meaning of English words we have to turn to the dictionary .

COD describes that tradition is "the transmission of customs and beliefs from generation to generation- a long established custom or belief passed in this way. An artistic or literary method or style established by an artist, writer, or movement and subsequently followed by others."

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 19 Jun 2009, 10:29

Dear Coolkarni,
About the poser , whether Classicism in KM is on the wane, fact is that inspite of the average standards of present day performers and their music is better than previous times, thanks to the education, technology and opportunities, We are yet to get all times Great Maestros/legends, like Ariyakudi, Maharajapuram Viswantha Iyyer, Musiri Subramanya Iyer, Tiger Varadachari, Madurai Mani Iyer, Semmengudi Srinivasa Iyer, Alathur Brothers, GNB, BMK,MS, DKP, Mahalingam, Ramani, Emani Shankara Shastri, Karaikudi Sambasiva Iyer, Balachandar, Chitra veena Ravi kiran,TNKrishnan, Lalgudi Jayaraman, MSG, VVS, L.Shankar, Palghat Mani Iyer, Palani Subramanyam Pillai, TKMurthy, Palghat Raghu, Ummayalapuram Sivaraman, Vinayaka Ram, Harishankar (list is not exhaustive, Please excuse me). The reason must be the erosion in values and classicism.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 19 Jun 2009, 11:16

@ munirao2001

Of the "Great Maestros/legends" you mentioned, many are active musicians and Chitra veena Ravi kiran is in fact a "youngster" compared to some of the other active musicians.

One's musical strengths only improve and ripen as one practices through more and more years, and some of the youngsters today show great potential, and given the time, they may grow into maestros and legends too.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 19 Jun 2009, 11:48

Dear Shivadasan,
Thanks for your well considered comments.

1) Yes, my usage of Tradition word only restricted to our Indian Music and KM, in particular. When the Works of the Great Vaggeyakaras, pregnant with Classicism igniting the Great Maestros to learn, practice and achieve Excellence and set examples worth following, the knowledge/values thus established is certainly is Tradition, synonymous with Classical Excellence. Rasikas getting the Blissful listening experience and going beyond the self and craving for more of the similar experiences, sustains the demand for Classical Excellence. Other forms of knowledge/values, which does not stand the test of times and eternity, do not qualify for Classical Excellence.

2) About the Cherished Goals, my thread has given the Cherished Goals. For ready reference, Deha Sudhi, Karna Sudhi, Manas Sudhi and Chitta Sudhi. Chitta Sudhi is the highest Goal.

3) To bring the clarity on the usage of 'Classical legacy' and 'Updating', I want to elaborate. The quintessential creative works-both Sangita and Sahithya-of Great Vaggeyakaras, as bequeathed to us by the Great Maestros/Legends, uncompromisingly, keeping it Classical with the flame and fragrance of the creator, becomes the legacy. The practice of bringing in changes (by tampering), which affects the legacy, with the avowed objective of contemporising and attempts to make it appealing for the present times, is 'Updating'.

4)" That which is truly Classical needs no updating, since it is not dated."

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 19 Jun 2009, 12:22

Dear Srikant 1987,
You will agree that it is not the Physical Age, but mental acumen/maturity. Ideals, actualizing, practice and deliverance, marks out the Great Maestro/Legend. Chitra Veena Ravikiran, is one such such a rare gem ! There are ' Endaro Mahanubhavulu', I have not mentioned for the brevity.
Yes , I am keenly awaiting for Vijay Shiva, Sanjay Subramanyam, TM Krishna, Abhishek Raghuram, Malladi Bros, Lalgudi GJR Krishnan, Ganesh and Kumaresh, Mysore Nagaraj and Mysore Manjunath, Sowmya, Bombay Jayashri, Sudha Raghunathan and many other Musicians of immense potential to scale greater heights and become Great Maestros/legends of all times, in my Life time. There are many more Musicians of immense talent and potential, who need the rasikas patronage, to motivate them to achieve the heights and glory- Musicians located in Kerala, in particular.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 19 Jun 2009, 14:43

Let me again point out the fuzzy language employed here:

Tradition is Classical Excellence, time-tested and everlasting. It is a crystallization in music, which has captured the vision of eternity gained by the Great Maestros in their sublimally creative moments.

The above statement is false. Traditions are never everlasting, nor are they relevant to classical excellence (whether in context of carnatic music or otherwise). The statement contradicts itself. Great maestros were born in a particular year and died in a particular year, there is nothing eternal about the crystallization of their music. They most definitely changed pre-existing traditions, as did their formers, and so on.

That which is truly Classical needs no updating/contemporising, sine it is not dated. It is eternal. Pursuit of Tradition is a path in which creativity is not shut out, as commonly understood.

Again the statement contradicts itself. Nothing is eternal, no tradition is undated. Everything has a finite beginning and a finite end. No one claimed that following tradition shuts out creativity completely, so the statement is a tautology. Classical music is like a language, as long as you follow the grammar, you can come up with inspired creative music.

Whith the growth of Styles and personal interpretations, the ideal integrity suffers eclipse. This is the major factor, contributing to the decline in quality and Classical excellence in Karnataka Music.

This is true.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 19 Jun 2009, 15:24

Uday_Shankar wrote:
That said, I agree that the word tradition has nothing to do with classical excellence.

Not just inventing new meanings, people have also invented new retroactive etymologies! For example a friend of mine insists that the word ethnomusicology derives from the study of "ethanayo" (many in Tamil) kinds of music . In time, the original word ethanayomusicology got shortened to ethnomusicology.

That deserves a place in the hilarity thread.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Jun 2009, 23:17

munirao, going beyond the semantics of the word tradition, let me accept the following two statemetns on face value giving you the freedom of definition. I am intrigued by your definitions themselves and associating such characteristics with past masters

>cherished goals of Indian Music -
DehaSudhi - Cleansing of the Body ( Folk/Fast beat based other forms),
KarnaSudhi - Pleasing the Ears( light music, with greater emphasis on lyrics),
Manas Sudhi- cleansing of the Heart( judicious mixture of melody and bhava) and
Chitta Sudhi - Melody, with greater emphasis on Nada/Nadanubhavam-pure and noble sound

>Examples of musicians who you cite as having practised the above
> Ariyakudi, Musiri, GNB, Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer,Chembai Vaidyanatha Bhagavathar, Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer, Dwaram Venkataswamy Naidu,Lalgudi Jayaraman, MS,DKP/DKJ, MLV/KVN, MDR/Ramanathan/TMT

When I first read your definition of cherished goals, the first two caught my attention. ( the last two require further elaboration, it uses technical words that are undefined which Shivdasan rightly points out )

Here is my question.

CM is usually not considered

"Light music consisting of fast beats"

What I was immediately reminded of was film music. A lot of film music lyrics are also very meaningful and in fact cover a wide variety of topics, easy to listen to and consist of fast beats. ( not all film music, just to be sure so there is no tangential discussion on that )

I am sure you meant it in a different way, I am looking forward to your further explanations.

As a sidebar, I like the fact you came out and defined exactly what you mean by the word tradition. I know a lot of people have problem with your definition but going beyond that what is your source for this definition. Your own, from ancient books or from the various discussions at the music academy lec-dems or other personal discussions with great musicians that your father, the great artist, was associated with...

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 20 Jun 2009, 12:06

Dear srkris,
1) Fact is that the creative inputs of Excellence, in any form, by the Great Vaggeyakaras and Maestros, becomes Tradition and is cherished for ever, with few exceptions. Changes are welcomed and the part becomes the whole. Such immortal music has stood the test of times. Like fresh springs, continue to satisfy the thirsty. Thus it gains immortality and is eternal.

2) 'Not dated' denotes that they are time immemorial and immortal, lasting for ever. The history of KM-pre-vedic, Vedic, post-Vedic and contemporary vouches the observation and the statement ' Tradition is Classical Excellence, time-tested and everlasting. It is a crystallization in music, which has captured the vision of eternity gained by the Great Maestros in their sublimally creative moments'. Just like Vedas are treated as 'Apurusheya', because they are not work of any particular thinker or author and are bestowed to us by oral tradition, KM is also 'Apurusheya'. The present form of Vedic texts are given by Veda Vyasa and KM by Purandara Dasa - Karnataka Sangita Pitamaha. Hence Finite begining can not be determined and finite end can come only if KM goes out of existence. Well, nigh, impossible.
As already stated, Changes are real. But such great changes are absorbed and become part of the Tradition.

3) The statement is a reaction with agony and immense pain to the Stylists declarations- there are many and I do not intend to Name them-that they have resorted to their own style to be creative or moved away from tradition to be part of contemporary or music in demand.

Finally, to understand my statements, your committed listening to the Great Maestros/legends and to the stylists and the trendy KM(Neo-classical) will be helpful.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 20 Jun 2009, 13:37

Dear Vasanthakokilam,

1) The Music is only of three categories - Good-Bad-Ugly. The need for identity and clear understanding has resulted in the classification of Folk-Light-Classical. Music , in general, consists of all the three classifications, in different measure.
The Classical Music is considered 'heavy' because it makes demand on the listener/rasika, at least , minimal knowledge of theory/grammar(Lakshana Gnanam) for the enjoyment of Music, apart from listening experience(lakshya Gnanam). Other forms of Music - Folk and Light do not make such demands on the lay listener for his/her enjoyment and satisfaction.
Our Cutcheri format is judicious mixture of Fok-Light-Classical compositions of great merits, to meet the demands of Pandita-Pamara ranjakathvam. Music is Light, when the composition is based on the simple lyric and plain notes, either set to simple rhythm/beats or fast paced rhythm/beats. The objective is to draw and rivet the attention and render easily pleasing tunes. Great Maestros Cutcheris consists of judicious mix of all the three -Folk-Light-Classical compositions and met the Cherished Goals of Music. If you check the compositions, you will appreciate and agree.
Fact is that Great Maestros create great compositions, with the gift of Lakshya and Lakshana Gnanam, in other forms of Music- Folk and Light(Sugama, Vachana,Gamaka and Film) and become ever green songs.

2) Manas Sudhi- cleansing of the Heart( judicious mixture of melody and bhava) and
Chitta Sudhi - Melody, with greater emphasis on Nada/Nadanubhavam-pure and noble sound

2.1. The renderings which gives enhanced appeal with the strength of the correct enunciation and feelngs(sinking the full import of the sahithya bhavam) and selection of apt musical phrases, delivering total satisfaction(heartfelt) are considered to have met the Manas Sudhi Goal.

2.2. The rendering of Melody with Pure Note(s), which transports the listener to inner self from outer self- soulful (forgetting for moments, the self), giving blissful listening experience(atmartha sangitham), with or without the help of Sahithyam - like Alapana, berefit of sahithya, are considered to have ment the Chitta Sudhi Goal.

3) Authority for this definitions are derived from Sama Veda, brought to clarity by the Great Maestros/Legends, during either lec-Demos or personal discussions. The expression/communication, with his limited English vocabulary is of yours truly.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Jun 2009, 08:42

OK, thanks Munirao. You are clear and consistent in your definition. Let me ask this to make sure how far and how consistently you take the definition. I do not mean to be cynical when asking this. For this discussion, we can just focus on your characterization 'Cherished Goals of Music' (CGM ) and not the word 'tradition'.

Would you agree that CGM is met with a film song that has good lyrics, simple music for which there is no easy raga assignment, beats that are easy to feel, sung with heartfelt bhavam and have some portions of lyrics-free music? ( there are umpteen examples in film music that can fit this criteria )

By the same measure, would you consider CGM to be not met with a very scholarly composition that is set to a not so easily feelable laya structure, whose lyrics are hard to understand but set to a great raga and sung with bhavam?

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 21 Jun 2009, 12:10

Dear Vasanthakokilam,
1) As mentioned/clarified already, the CGM is for any form of Music-Folk,Light and Classical. Any kind of Music, achieves the Goal(s), if it meets the requirements/characteristics. To achieve the ultimate in CGM - Chittha Sudhi, only Classical Music has proved right means. That is the reason, Classical Music is given highest respect and regard by all.
2) If the note(s) in the exposition of raga delivers the enjoyment/bliss to the listener(s), it meets the Goal of Chitta Sudhi and exposition with a raga and bhavam, is heartfelt, it meets the Goal of Manas Sudhi. But, the exposition described by you will not qualify for other two Goals-Deha Sudhi and Karna Sudhi.

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 21 Jun 2009, 19:00

Dear Munirao,

The four shuddhis mentioned Deha, Karna, manas and Chitta, are capable of many interpretations according to level of spiritual evolution of the person.

Deha shuddhi will have different implications for a layman, a yoga therapy doctor, an ayurvedic practitioner, a yoga expert and a Hatha Yogi.
Karna Shuddhi will mean listening to soul uplifting speeches or recitations, listening only to Bhagwan Nama for others.
Shudda manas will mean different things to an illiterate, slightly learned, well learned, a psychiatrist, a spiritual teacher or preacher and , a siddha guru
Chitta shuddhi can mean from unruffled thoughts to no thoughts at all.

These words are frequently used in spiritual discourses and discussions and rarely used in CM. They may not result in a consensus of ideas when used in discussions on CM. It would be of great interest for me to know whether there is any text that mentions these in respect of CM.

I am still unable to understand whether these shuddhis will create great CM or whether practising CM would lead to the achievement of these.

In the statement "We are yet to get all times Great Maestros/legends, like---so and so"

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 22 Jun 2009, 03:35

Munirao,

I am sure you have heard of logical fallacies.

Traditions can be long lived, but all that lives has to die. There is no such thing as an immortal tradition.

All things have a beginning and an end. Traditions do change, whether liked or not. Even the unliked portions of such change become traditional in the long run (I am sure there were very few persons in Thyagaraja's time who welcomed the violin into carnatic music).

There is no use repeating stock phrases. Nothing is cherished for ever. "For ever" means without a past and without a future i.e eternal. You probably have different definitions for the words "eternal" and "forever" just like you have your own definitions for "tradition".

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 22 Jun 2009, 08:07

Shivadasan
Thanks for that excellent post. I am in total agreement with everything said.

srkris too!

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 22 Jun 2009, 11:59

Dear Shivadasan,
Thanks for engaging and serious comments, once again.

1) The CGM's are first and foremost for the practitioner and performer. After he internalizes, he gives the opportunity to the Rasikas/Listeners to attain the CGM's through his evocative renditions/performances. CGM's for Music has been advocated, taking the logic of Religion - Ritualistic and philosophic-ideals and practices, in to Indian Music. Indian Music has Religion-Devotion as the main focus. Entertainment aspect, is a benefit derived out of off shoot or byproduct. Whenever discussions to define or bring clarity Tradition in CM took place and CGM's were discussed , either in isolation or together, took place, in the past also, there were agreements and disagreements. But, Lec-demo resulted in bringing the clarity and consensus was achieved, by and large.

The Indian Music is Great because of inherent CGM's. The practioner, with the focus on the CGM's, derives the benefit for his own total satisfaction/upliftment. Through this sadhana/practice, he partakes the benefits to the rasika and the rasika, internalizing the music also gets the fruits of such sadhana/practice based music.

2) Great Maestros/Legends either had achieved all the CGM's or some of them, missed out the Ultimate l - Chitta Sudhi in CM. I agree that, unfortunately, that did not lead to refinement or purity in conducting their lives, with very few exceptions. Music is a means(eaasier/sulabha margam) for Mukthi, subject to living upto the demands for attaining the Mukthi-freedom from imperfections/doshas in the thought and life style. Majority of the Great/Maestros and legends, failed, no doubt. Practioner, should work on the strength of internalizing the CGM's and derive the benefit of removing their blemishes in the Character or conduct in life by facing the real life challenges, with the knowledge and acceptance of Reality and Equanimity(Brahma Gnanam)
But even Gods(tales of puranas), Maharishis, Religious Heads, were/are not free from Doshas !
2) CM was existing from Pre-Vedic Times, as Music, but Purandara Dasa systematized the knowledge, practice and gave it distinct identity and structure. Music of Sants/Harikatha/Devotional discourses stand testimony to the pre-existence of Music(essentially, devotional and folk). Other Dasas, who followed Purandara, identified and hailed Purandara as Narada, himself ( Naradare E Rupadalli Bandu- Narada came in this form).

3) I totally agree that CM is one aspect of Eternal Music, there can not be second opinion on this Fact !

4) The very objective of this thread was to bring clarity and purpose on Tradition in CM . The Goal is with clarity, both the practitioners and rasikas should work on the preservation and enrichment of tradition in CM. Practitioners should aim to achieve the CGM's, internalize and perform, uncompromisingly. Rasikas should develop the ear for good and chaste CM, acquire at least minimal knowledge of both theory and practice ( Lakshana and Lakshya Gnanam), make demands on the practitioners/performers and organizers/sponsors, encourage, motivate and support such Vidwans/Vidushis and Maestros. The performing opportunities and indiscriminate remuneration, recognition and rewards to such artists, will achieve the objective of Tradition.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 22 Jun 2009, 12:18

Dear Srkris,
Life has a begining and end, but experience which becomes knowledge, is immortal. Knowledge combined with Ideals and practices, become Tradition. Thus Tradition is immortal. As already posted, really original creative inputs, which stand the test of time, become rich additions to the Tradition.

Forget the limitations of my language or poor communication, judge and view based on the your own listening experience and knowledge to understand my thread/posts.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 22 Jun 2009, 12:58

munirao wrote:but experience which becomes knowledge, is immortal. Knowledge combined with Ideals and practices, become Tradition. Thus Tradition is immortal. As already posted, really original creative inputs, which stand the test of time, become rich additions to the Tradition.

Knowledge is immortal only as long as it's shared within people's lifetimes. Practices and even ideals change with time and place.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 22 Jun 2009, 18:32

Unless documented and shared the knowledge one possesses dies alongwith ones death - only memories linger.

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 22 Jun 2009, 19:11

Dear Munirao,

You are yet to acquaint us with the origin of the concept of CGM and the texts that mention it. Otherwise everyone is likely to treat it as your own invention and the value of your exposition will be lost. The first paragraph is a description of the benefits of CGM which is not enough to create respect for the concept of CGM and does not lead us anywhere.

The words "Majority of the Great/Maestros and legends, failed, no doubt."

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 23 Jun 2009, 11:00

Dear Srikant 1987,
Ideal situation is that knowledge is shared, appreciated, recognized of it's merits and contribution during the Life time. History gives the innumerable cases of such development not happening in one's Life time, but later the development takes place and the contribution is recorded and accepted, to become rich addition to the knowledge.

Set Goals remain. Set Goals may be refined or new Goals get set, with the strength of new knowledge and practices, for enrichment and achieving higher standards. The need for enrichment is Nature's order. No doubt, practices change with the times.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 23 Jun 2009, 11:05

Dear VKRaman,
Yes. Many a times, when the knowledge is not documented, but shared, is brought to light by the person(s) who secured the knowledge from the perceptor, after his demise.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 23 Jun 2009, 13:40

Dear Shivadasan,
I am now living in Bangalore and all the relevant materials for giving the text are in my late fathers library at our Chennai house. The thread/article is based on the teaching/notes of my Father, reflecting the synthesized knowledge of his Gurus - Tiger, Maharajapuram, Dwaram, Vasudevachar and TLV Iyer and Manaseeka Gurus-Ariyakudi, Musiri and Semmengudi. I promise you that I will work on this and give you the text, in due course of time.

1) Your reply ' The first paragraph is a description of the benefits of CGM which is not enough to create respect for the concept of CGM and does not lead us anywhere' will find answer in the second para of point(1) ' The Indian Music is Great because of inherent CGM's. The practioner, with the focus on the CGM's, derives the benefit for his own total satisfaction/upliftment. Through this sadhana/practice, he partakes the benefits to the rasika and the rasika, internalizing the music also gets the fruits of such sadhana/practice based music.'.

2) My reply was for the truth you stated that in spite of achieving the benefits of CGM are CGM's, there were/are blemishes or weaknesses in the practitioner(s).
Cutcheri Music, with the objective of entertainment of rasika, as primary motive, replacing the Temple Concert/Music ushered in severe competition and the resultant changes in the behaviour/character of the practitioner(s). But many Great/Maestros, uncompromisingly sticking to the ideals of tradition, lived the Life, enjoying the fruits of Sadhana Sampath/treasure of practice. Many did not attain popularity, but remained steadfast with the ideals. Spirituality, achieved through CM, strengthened them.
The practitioner has to achieve the chosen Set CGM/CGM's, not the other way ! He will be first beneficiary.
3) I had replied that 'CM was existing from Pre-Vedic Times, as Music'. After Purandara Dasa gave structure for Abhyasa Ganam and Geetha, padams and kirtanas, the music was propagated by other dasas, mainly belonging to the Karnataka Region of those times. But it was essentially-devotional. Trinity of Music enriched the Music -with both Lakshya and Lakshana Gnanam and by many others, later. Court Music was very much prevalent and lakshana Music prospered, with great writings, even before the advent of Trinity of Music.
Music taking a distinct identity, shape and practice in the Karnataka Region, spread to all the other regions in the Southern India. During the British times, identity of music in Southern Region got once again changed to Carnatic Music.

Hence, the pre-vedic times Music underwent changes and identity. CM also being culled from pre-vedic times and modified, thus attained eternity.

4) Let us examine, in detail, whether objectives of CGM or CGMs have been achieved or not.
4.1. Deha Sudhi - The beats/fast beats, with pulsating effect creates interest, arrests /rivets the listener's attention , excites and is invigorating. The process activates, the body and the mind. The cleansing effect is through such activation.

4.2. Karna Sudhi - When the pleasure is perceived and derived, essentially with the support of the Sahithya and with simple tune/melody, but gives the satisfaction only during the listening process/times, gives the comfort and all pervading pleasantness, called as pleasing to the ears or Karna Sudhi- free from blemishes of the loudness/high decible of the sound(s).

4.3. Manas Sudhi - Music, with the judicious combination and usage of melody and the sahithya/lyric, creating Bhavodrekam, sways the heart. Music becoming heartfelt/Nenjathai todum-Manasu nindina-Ede tumbida -Hridaya puravakam( in Tamil-Telugu-Kannada-Sanskrit/Malayalam). Such emotional feelings, bring in great happiness, with recall capability.

4.4. Chitta Sudhi - Music with the Greatest power of Nada/Nadanubhavam-pure and noble sound, transports the listener and makes him/her to forget the self, thought less and silent for a/few moments, one with divinity. The Blissful experience, realized, cleanses the intellect/Chitta with unalloyed joy/feelings and peace of mind. It is now scientifically found that such music creates/releases dopamine chemical/s, which bring the highly elated/elevated feelings in the brain.

Great Vaggeyakaras compositions and Great/Maestros performances, depending on their choice and listener's descipline and rapt attention, achieve the CGM/CGM's and it's benefits, either singly or together.

5) I have given the practical steps, in brief, the duties and responsibilities of Practitioner/Performer - Organizer/Sponsor - Rasika, in achieving the objectives and goals.

- The practitioner/performer's financial security must be ensured, to free him to devote his time, without care for the creature comforts, for learning from able Guru(s), practice and perform, uncompromisingly. Recognition and Rewards to be bestowed upon Great achievers, purely on Merit, irrespective of the status of popularity. Gurus must instill the ideals and make the desciples/shisyas, attain spirituality in Music.

- Organizers/opinion makers/sponsors should be serving only the cause of music, with deep devotion, ensure excellence in managing the event, in totality. Swear and give equal and adequate opportunities, to the practitioner/performer, purely based on the merits.

- Rasika should devote and commit time ,descipline, resources and energy in attending the concerts/presentations, in great numbers Equip them self with Lakshya and Lakshana Gnanam, at least minimal levels. Swear support to meritorious and demand and encourage only practioners/perfromers , who have achieved/ capable of achieving the CGM/CGM's.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 30 Jun 2009, 11:52

I am keenly looking forward to receive posts on my post 84

munirao2001

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 01 Jul 2009, 04:51

munirao2001 - Practitioners/Performers financial security depends on rasikAs and their willing to provide that security. Practioners/Performers have to earn it by their devotion, commitment and passion.

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 01 Jul 2009, 09:59

VK RAMAN wrote:munirao2001 - Practitioners/Performers financial security depends on rasikAs and their willing to provide that security. Practioners/Performers have to earn it by their devotion, commitment and passion.

I am not so sure about this "willingness" of rasikas. Majority of concerts through the year are free and depend on sponsors. Anyone who takes up Carnatic music as a profession (I am not including the amateurs and wannabes who will pay to get a concert platform or album released) is surely not short of commitment and passion.
The field today is dominated by female singers. The reasons are not difficult to fathom. I respect amateurs and dilletantes who have the motivation to perform in addition to their "day jobs", but it is only full-time dedication and professionalism that can sustain Carnatic Music.
Sadly, the putrid patronage-driven eco-system we have does not fit the bill.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Jul 2009, 10:49

karthik: I see where you are going with that. I guess these days, a well-educated woman can support a male musician during that 'commitment' phase without having to worry about income. I agree it is a bit idealistic but let us hope it can happen. That would be a dream scenario for an aspiring male musician. It requires the joining of forces of two like minded individuals.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 01 Jul 2009, 13:20

VKRaman
I agree with Karthikbala that CM practioner/performer has to be full-time, totally committed, devoted and through professional to serve his own cause and CM's cause.
It's shameful to mention the remuneration paid/being paid to majority of the practioner/perfomers. Luckyu few only become immensely popular and can demand fee and get paid , too. Some of them take to teaching, whole time, to make a living. CM to regain the glory and become Global, with immense potential, requires Top class Management of resources. Very few institutions or organization are being managed, better. None can be rated being managed with professional excellence, when compared to Western Music. In the context of Indian Music, HM is better orgainzed.

I am in total agreement with Karthikbala that 'I am not so sure about this "willingness" of rasikas. Majority of concerts through the year are free and depend on sponsors. Anyone who takes up Carnatic music as a profession (I am not including the amateurs and wannabes who will pay to get a concert platform or album released) is surely not short of commitment and passion'. Fact is we have been loosing many Great Maestros/Maestros/talented and up coming musicians, languishing due to total lack of financial security , adequate performing opportunities, recognition and rewards. Adding to their discomfiture, they have to endure - negetive ego/bad attitude, lack of knowledge of appreciating and recognizing the true value of the quality practioner/performer, bias, selfish motives, support of event managers-sponsors(mainly both Govt and Corporate)-opnion makers(well placed/entrenched individuals and media(both print and audio-visual).
For those practioners and performers, with passion, commitment and total devotion, their own satisfacton of 'Atmartham' is met by singing at their homes. But to get motivated, perform and deliver total satisfaction to the Rasikas and also continue to serve the cause of CM, they have to be free from financial insecurity.
Rasikas, have very vital role to play by committing resources-time, energy and money. With the support of Rasikas, you can expect others to fall in line. Why not Rasikas take lead ?

VK, through the support of the family members, women in particular, musicians have thrived and are continuing to thrive. But, sadly it was/is not adequate and enough.

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 01 Jul 2009, 19:18

munirao2001 wrote:Dear Shivadasan,
I am now living in Bangalore and all the relevant materials for giving the text are in my late fathers library at our Chennai house. The thread/article is based on the teaching/notes of my Father, reflecting the synthesized knowledge of his Gurus - Tiger, Maharajapuram, Dwaram, Vasudevachar and TLV Iyer and Manaseeka Gurus-Ariyakudi, Musiri and Semmengudi.

Sorry for the digression, sir..

I didn't know that sri S.Srinivasa rAo had learnt from tiger.. could you please tell me if he learnt the tOdi piece kaDatera rada from him..? I know for a fact that your father was one of precious few people who sang tappi bratiki pova..

again, apologies for intruding into this thread with unrelated stuff..

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 01 Jul 2009, 22:21

VK

Although not exactly for the same cause, here is a successful example for you,

Quote from the prodigy maker

My parents took certain crucial life decisions soon after Ravikiran started identifying Ragas. In order to spend more time training him, my father put his own career on the back burner. My mother, who already had a job in a bank before my brother was born, decided that her husbandÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s dream was a unique one and that she would support him fully in his endeavour. Therefore, she freed up his time and mind from mundane worries, and told him boldly that she would manage the household on her income for some time. Today, we hear a lot about gender equality and role switching, but my parents put it into action almost four decades ago. Until a few years later, when my father took up a job with All India Radio, my mother supported our family largely with her income.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 01 Jul 2009, 22:59

Taking into account the various discussions in this thread, I think it may be advisable to change the title to something that reflects the consensus of the various thoughts and inputs that have gone into this.

Something like

"Cherished Goals of Carnatic Music"

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 02 Jul 2009, 10:36

Keerthi,
SSRao did learn 'Kada Thera rada'. S.Ramanathan, BV Raman and BV Lakshman, MDR and Savithri Rajan had also learnt this rare krithi from Tiger. For reasons unknown, some how this krithi was not being selected/planned for concerts.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 02 Jul 2009, 10:54

Cienu,
The intention and purpose of this thread was principally to bring clarity, define, remove misconceptions on Tradition, in CM, as already stated/posted by me, earlier. To bring right perspective on Tradition, Cherished Goals of Indian Music was also highlighted/elaborated. We can see that CGM's are equally relevant and applicable to all the other forms of Music , also.
My strong wish is that the practioners/performers, with correct understanding and appreciation of Tradion in IM, CM in particular, uphold the Glorious Tradition, without being apologetic or taking the excuse for moving away/going beyond the restrictions or limitations, for the sake of creativity. Tradition, is always inclusive ! My other strong desire is that, Rasikas also should be demanding, supportive to such practioners/performers, enabling the continuity of our glorious Tradition to generations and generations, to come.