Are we becoming culturally decadent?

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 17 Jul 2009, 16:35

An interesting viewpoint with the above title was published in The Indian Express recently.

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... 8YA=&type=

sundance · Post by **sundance** » 17 Jul 2009, 16:41

Interesting viewpoint,

However, I find it even more interesting that you of all people should post this. Are our moderators so lax that they let someone who publicly derided a well-appreciated classical artist continue posting their views? Rather like the greater Indian society that is talked about in the article, I suppose - that allows everyone and anyone to do whatever they like.

rajesh_rs · Post by **rajesh_rs** » 17 Jul 2009, 17:00

Oh yes, the degradation is setting in. Like all cultures that have come before them, the West reached a possible high point, where technology, materialism, ideas and cultural integrity have all changed from the old guard to the new. The rampant materialism, odd lifestyles that have little or no meaning, sensationalism, moral corruption, greed, etc., will eventually degrade their culture while the capable amongst us will pick up what's best of their culture and infuse it into ours, creating the next wave of human progress. Like Kondratieff predicted for economic cycles, progress will carry on, but the future will have a tinge of the typical communist, atheist, morally bankrupt Chinese mentality and the confused, pseudo-religious, opportunistic, corrupt, Indian mentality - only for the reason that these cultures form the greatest chunk of the world's population in two country and because of the economic clout they are to wield.

Some of the points made in the article are indeed correct - the degradation of the family as a unit of society because of materialism, rising infidelity, waning spiritual inclination, legalization of homosexuality and other sexually deviant behaviour, as well as the mindless sensationalism in the name of media coverage. The problem with a connected world is that the connectors - the media - is under control. They decide whether to popularize Amjad Ali Khan or Michael Jackson. They decide whether to popularize a corrupt pederast who posed to be a responsible public figure and died a terrible death of his own making, or whether to popularize a decent individual whose exploits in the arena of music have warmed the hearts of many.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 17 Jul 2009, 17:24

Unfortunately cultural degrdation is thought as progress. One of the comments to the article is as worthy as the article.

Quote Mr.Upendra

What can you expect, when both the parents are running from pillar to post, to secure 'better' jobs, to earn more, so as to keep up with the Jonses. They say we earn more to give better education, housing, clothng to our children. What education ? What shelter ? and What clothing ? It's there for all to see !! We ape the West in nakedness and sex, calling it being 'Mod', but do we ape their work culture ? Do we ape their importance of time ? We ape ONLY those matters that are extravagent and worthless. Ask any child of the third or fourth standard - Who was Mahatma Gandhi ? Poor thing, it would be blank. But ask him who Shahrukh Khan or Salman Khan is and you would get an answer pronto ! That's our culture. But, don't blame the young of today. They are not the one's. Kick their parents; the generation that is in their 40's now. They are the real criminals, who have ruined our culture. They are the ones who want everything, here and now. They have no time to look after their kids, since

unquote

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 17 Jul 2009, 17:47

"The goal of every culture is to decay through over-civilization; the factors of decadence,--luxury, skepticism, weariness and superstition,--are constant. The civilization of one epoch becomes the manure of the next." - Cyril Connolly

"Men first feel necessity, then look for utility, next attend to comfort, still later amuse themselves with pleasure, thence grow dissolute in luxury, and finally go mad and waste their substance."
- Vico Giambattista

"Decadence is a difficult word to use since it has become little more than a term of abuse applied by critics to anything they do not yet understand or which seems to differ from their moral concepts."
- Ernest Hemingway

"As societies grow decadent, the language grows decadent, too; Words are used to disguise, not to illuminate, action: you liberate a city by destroying it; Words are to confuse, so that at election time people will solemnly vote against their own interests" - Gore Vidal

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 17 Jul 2009, 18:11

Great article. Barkha Dutt, Sagarika Ghose, Rajdeep Sardesai, Arundhathi Ghosh, the Karats and their cohorts need to read this.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 17 Jul 2009, 18:11

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 17 Jul 2009, 18:15

We reached this civilization from stone age and if it was degradation that did to us, let us go back to stone age!

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 17 Jul 2009, 19:06

sundance wrote:Interesting viewpoint,

However, I find it even more interesting that you of all people should post this. Are our moderators so lax that they let someone who publicly derided a well-appreciated classical artist continue posting their views? Rather like the greater Indian society that is talked about in the article, I suppose - that allows everyone and anyone to do whatever they like.

Actually, you seem to have missed the real insinuation behind this post; that is, the purity of Carnatic music is being contaminated by the inclusion of well-appreciated classical artists (if you know what I mean) from other schools of music using non-tradional instruments that don't go well with Carnatic music.

PS to the rest of the world: I like to feed delusions to the paranoid. I am evil that way!

vallaki · Post by **vallaki** » 17 Jul 2009, 19:54

Culturally Decadent ??? Or evolving cultures ??
Point to muse upon.

I think,
If somebody from 1400 came and saw somebody from 1600, the person from 1400 might say we have become advaced in some areas, decadent in some.
Same if someone from 1600 saw some one from 1800, or someone from 1800 saw us now...

The only thing constant is change... (Sorry for the cliche- but it is so very true)

vallaki · Post by **vallaki** » 17 Jul 2009, 19:59

knandago2001 wrote:"The goal of every culture is to decay through over-civilization; the factors of decadence,--luxury, skepticism, weariness and superstition,--are constant. The civilization of one epoch becomes the manure of the next." - Cyril Connolly

"Men first feel necessity, then look for utility, next attend to comfort, still later amuse themselves with pleasure, thence grow dissolute in luxury, and finally go mad and waste their substance."
- Vico Giambattista

"Decadence is a difficult word to use since it has become little more than a term of abuse applied by critics to anything they do not yet understand or which seems to differ from their moral concepts."
- Ernest Hemingway

"As societies grow decadent, the language grows decadent, too; Words are used to disguise, not to illuminate, action: you liberate a city by destroying it; Words are to confuse, so that at election time people will solemnly vote against their own interests" - Gore Vidal

Very true Quotes indeed.. It was very nice of you to post them sir !

vallaki · Post by **vallaki** » 17 Jul 2009, 20:01

coolkarni wrote:The graph going down ??????........
Hmm not so sure.
A modern day composer would not dare compose a krithi that sings

Antharangadalli Hariya kanadava Huttu Kurudano
The one who cannot Visualise "Hari" in his own self , is like one who is blind from birth.

Or for that matter

Makkalillada Siriyu , Kolethu thengina Thuriyu....... Ahudadare Ahudenii Allavadare
The riches one can have , but accomapnied by the fact that one is childless...
Also Rotten Cononut shavings ,
Also....

Decadence was always there.
Our age is one of transparency.That is all.
With a tinge of Moral accountabilities.

I Do agree Mr.Coolkarani..Yor experience seems to speak very well !!! (How old are you Mr.Coolkarni- Just curious????)

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 17 Jul 2009, 20:13

Wisdom goes with age - quoting CMLover "age is only a number"

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 17 Jul 2009, 20:16

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 17 Jul 2009, 20:32

How come...

People who write articles like this don't talk about important things?

How come they do not talk about the corruption of politicians and government officers?

How come they don't talk about domestic violence, about abuse of children?

I suppose, while they sit in their fantasy-culture towers, they do not even admit of these things. Perhaps those towers are too high for them to see down to the ground where youngsters love pop and film music and Michael Jackson and all sorts of stuff like that. Do they think that much of that film music has any more merit than that of Michael Jackson?

If they have a public voice, why do they not use it to speak out against the things that are really bad in this (others too, of course) culture?

I sometimes feel that the editor of the New Indian Express is far too fair-minded; along with excellent, intelligent and pertinent articles, he seems to feel it necessary to maintain a balance by also printing utter bullshit.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 17 Jul 2009, 20:47

How old are you Mr.Coolkarni

Based on his wisdom, Cool-sahib is ancient, at least 1000 years old.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jul 2009, 20:57

Seems like written by a random blogger with strong conservative leanings.. Such opinions on either side of the spectrum are dime a dozen out there in the blogosphere.

In fact, I was going to suggest at some point to the original poster of this thread to start a blog with his opinion pieces instead of littering them here on various threads and 'adding delusions to the paranoid types amongst us' which he seems to relish. Added benefit is, he can gauge the level of interest among the broader internet community.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 17 Jul 2009, 21:37

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 17 Jul 2009, 22:11

VK, the article is not so much about conservatism as it is about the deviousness of the self-appointed "intellectuals" of this country who seem to have made it their lives' job to oppose anything that has even a vague connection to Hindu religion and culture.

Satish · Post by **Satish** » 17 Jul 2009, 22:23

harimau wrote:Actually, you seem to have missed the real insinuation behind this post; that is, the purity of Carnatic music is being contaminated by the inclusion of well-appreciated classical artists (if you know what I mean) from other schools of music using non-tradional instruments that don't go well with Carnatic music.

PS to the rest of the world: I like to feed delusions to the paranoid. I am evil that way!

Perched atop a molehill, pontificating about what is pure Carnatic music and what is not, bemoaning the contamination by instruments and developments that he deems don't go well with Carnatic music, deriding and disparaging anyone and anything that doesn't fit his narrow (and narrowing by the minute) and blinkered worldview, assuming he has earned the right and authority to talk or insinuate as he does about "cultural decadence", "pure Carnatic music" and such...perhaps the original poster ought to reflect on or ask around to learn who is paranoid, deluded, and evil (and not just in the way he lays claim to). Then perhaps all those outside his bigoted circles would be spared his littering.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 18 Jul 2009, 00:16

I can concur only partly with Mr. Punj. I too thought the media reaction to MJ was over the top and undeserved while tributes to several musical giants we've lost over the last few weeks have been glaringly absent. Hindu's front page coverage of DKP Mami's passage is an exception but then the Hindu is one of the very few meaningful newspapers around even if I don't agree with their political tilt.

As for the rest of Mr. Punj's article - sad to see such regressive views from the supposedly moderate face of the sangh parivar....evidently his loudly proclaimed cultural erudition has done nothing to open his mind...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Jul 2009, 00:28

I too thought the media reaction to MJ was over the top

I thought that too.

It does not provide the foundation for a diatribe about decadence, though.

Michael Jackson struck me as a bit of a monster. So do one or two widely revered Indian "godmen".

Has this really got anything to do with carnatic music?

If not, let's just forget it?

EDIT MISQUOTE CORRECTED <blush>

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 18 Jul 2009, 02:10

Which post is Nick quoting above?

Are some posts disappearing in this forum?
I found something similar in other threads too of late.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Jul 2009, 03:15

Oh dear... I must have confused the cut&paste operation there, turning it into complete nonsense! Post edited above.

Just shows how decadent I've become...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 Jul 2009, 08:14

Are we becoming culturally decadent?
No. Atleast, not on this forum. Just glance through the threads. More resounding than any other sentiment here is the love for the music of past masters. The youngest among the forumites adore them, listen to them and speak of their mastery--over and over again. While the seniors wax nostalgic, they tell us how they wished they had heard the CM greats in live performances as the older generations did. When it comes to newness, they are circumspect too.
But for the random disruptive posts of the man (woman?) who cries wolf every now and then, we are doing fine at the forum.
Yes, sensation sells papers. So does notoriety of a personality. What is new about it? It has always been so. Don't buy that newspaper, skip those news items. Switch off that TV or radio. No one forces you to pay attention to them.
That is what we try to do when random negative posts appear

V kokilam has a better idea. A blog of his/her own!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 18 Jul 2009, 13:55

V kokilam has a better idea. A blog of his/her own!

Yep, that's a nice way of telling the original poster to get lost.
Hope he/she/it is listening.

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 18 Jul 2009, 14:51

arasi,
is it really you? I've never seen such an intense reaction from you so far!

Shalu · Post by **Shalu** » 18 Jul 2009, 16:08

Some (articles) provoke....lo behold 'visiting consultants' who come with randomly 'debatable' topics...dont know why we need to cry hoarse about something that needs to stem from within...Decadence? Each to his own form of music. Just take what you want and leave the rest. This forum has discussed and debated upon enough pertinent and enriching stuff, in mutual exchange.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 Jul 2009, 20:08

chalanata,
I am surprised that you are surprised!
bArati says: siRumai kaNDu ponguvAi (do not put up with meaness, narrow minedness which obvoiusly hurts). While I believe in humor being the best antidote to ills, it bothers me no end that the one who seems to know much about music and appreciates good music of the doyens stoops to make virulent negative comments on the forum. As I said before, you can ignore these comments, but they do not go away. They are baits for those who have no idea about the intent of harimau and it takes the discussion to where he wants it to go. I have no clue about the true intent of this person, though. How can someone who says he/she is so intent on preserving the heritage of CM shred it to a heap of nothingness? How can this person forget the history of CM where innovations too in the past made it the treasure it is today? I have no clue. To me, it is like a parent who professes unending love for his child but flares up and punishes his offspring cruelly for his taking any steps in the path to discovery. CM for him it seems are museum pieces--they belong to the past. According to him, those who want to practise it will have to be their replicas and no more. According to this person, CM is dead perhaps--but for the music of some octogenerians who still live among us, like RKS, Parassala Ponnammal whom we cherish as much as he does. He also forgets that the rest of us are not blind and deaf to take every so called innovation to be a boon. Quality counts, and it always will...

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Jul 2009, 20:21

chalanata
Have you heard the expression: sAdhu miRaNDAl..
By the by arasi is not a 'sAdhu'

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 18 Jul 2009, 20:29

There is a limit to any ones patience - embodiment of trust and hope and it seems harimau crossed the limit

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Jul 2009, 21:16

Arasi,

On the last occasion, I was advised by a fellow member not to feed the troll

You reinforce that message magnificently, and I must remember not to leap to the bait.

Thank you.