Balance sheet of our musical wealth seems in peril

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 24 Jul 2009, 10:22

http://news.rediff.com/column/2009/jul/ ... apital.htm

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 24 Jul 2009, 11:08

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 24 Jul 2009, 12:10

I completely agree.

But the sad fact is that whatever said and done today's musicians are Performers first and then an artiste. So, their names will definitely appear on newspapers as they also fall under the category of Glamour. I wont be surprised if in the near future carnatic musicians gossip will become a commercial hit. Today we have these musicians build websites, come out with films, do podcasts, write their own blogs , promote themselves ina very professional and commercial manner. We already have carnatic music in corporate shows, and even in Fashion shows. So, i guess the answer is very clear, if the media does not pay attention to artistes, well, the artistes will become what it demands to get such attention. Its all inter related. But , one thing is for sure. THE ERA of True, Sincere artistes is coming to an end.

PS: I hope nobody starts justifying what present day musicians do. I am not blaming them for a moment. Lifestyles have changed and end of the day they have a status to live upto. Just pointing out an observation.

mahesu · Post by **mahesu** » 24 Jul 2009, 12:52

We must also note that there are many "Artists" who are true to the art, who do not go all out and do anything possible to be on stage. Though they could be wonderful performers also, they are not after concert stage. Many of them are musicians who do not earn their living from performance or teaching, but keep doing other jobs to earn their bread. They are no less to the above mentioned performers, and would not compromise on the art for the sake of glamour. These unsung heroes (and heroines) are not much in limelight as they are shadowed by the so called glamour loving performers.

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 24 Jul 2009, 13:50

Mahesh with due respect lets not play a blame game here. It calls for a lot of flare, dedication, discipline, effort and an amount of risk to even be a glamorous performer. TMK or Sanjay cannot be what they are , if not for their passion. I only wanted to show the influence of media even on a traditional artform like Carnatic Music. If they have to be noticed they must do something out of ordinary, be innovative, make flashy statements etc....right or wrong?, i am out of that discussion please.

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 24 Jul 2009, 17:40

Raising awareness regarding Intangible Cultural Heritage
http://www.badongo.com/file/16162819
An application submitted to UNESCO by "Madhukali"

rajesh_rs · Post by **rajesh_rs** » 24 Jul 2009, 19:17

I wonder if it is safe to say that Hindustani music is more at peril than Carnatic music. There is a dedicated set of artists and followers amongst us youngsters in the Carnatic music scene, whereas Hindustani music finds few takers amongst North Indian youth. There are probably enough talented people out there who simply haven't discovered the art form for themselves.

It is sad that the legends have passed away, they will be sorely missed by us.

Where did the rot start? Do our policies of consumerism and instant gratification bode ill for our art forms? Or is there a way to turn it around, and use the tools of globalization to spread the art forms rather than be attacked in turn? When will we see the day that artists like Gangubai Hangal or DK PattammaL (or their successors in the fields of Indian music) are respected and loved world over?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 24 Jul 2009, 19:33

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Jul 2009, 19:34

THE ERA of True, Sincere artistes is coming to an end.

Well, that is all rather dire and black!

And, I suspect really not fair, not on the artists of today, nor on the artists of yesterday.

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 24 Jul 2009, 19:34

As a veteran listener(60 plus years of listening),I can categorically say that the doom and gloom is exaggerated--the proof--the Rasikas Forum--a vibrant platform of which I was unashamedly unaware of till recently--is the bulwark against the kind of decay that is being lamented--look at the array of contributors--of all ages -mostly the youth because of their tech savvy-in this forum,their genuine concern for the hoary past and propagation for the future, I for one in my twilight years cannot be more optimistic than I am now about our music. Set aside the mass media's apathy towards Art and Culture and its preoccupation with the Cinema and the artistes therein--given the modern multiple,finely-honed modes of communication available --there is widespread dispersion of the arts and culture amongst several segments of the population not all of whom rely solely on the Mass media.To me a Direct Marketer in my erstwhile Professional Career, forums like this are no longer 'niche' forums and their "reach" could be bolstered by us.

I for one would be glad to assist in any endeavour that the Forum readers wish to start towards ameliorating the current concerns.

M.K.Ramasubramanian("Ramesh".

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 24 Jul 2009, 19:40

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Jul 2009, 19:45

... mostly the youth because of their tech savvy-in this forum

I used to make that mistake. I still blush to think that I once suggested that CMLover might be speaking about something from inexperienced youth!!!

I think that computers and the internet, whilst they may have their youth-culture corners, are no longer subject to any age bar. There are plenty of older members here. Thankfully, of course, there are young ones too.

---a middle-aged member

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 24 Jul 2009, 19:49

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 24 Jul 2009, 20:13

We are barking on a subject we all have control and can do something about it. Looking at the future generation is not the answer. What we do today to make a difference in CM will take care of tomorrow.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 24 Jul 2009, 22:16

Just imagine if there is just only internet and television still continues with Doordarshan 1 and 2 channels only. All of us (not just the rasikas of rasikas.org) will feel so longing to hear a concert and possibly every musician will have almost 70% turnout of maharajapuram santhanam of 90's .

There is no decay that is substantial(there is considerable overlap of excellence between erstwhile semmangudi mama and today's prasanna venkataraman) , it is just TELEVISION , THE IDIOT BOX THAT IS A CANCER TO CM AND HM. I am unable to think of any solution there . We just have to get out of TV and come to sabhas.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Jul 2009, 23:30

coolkarni wrote:
nick H wrote:
... mostly the youth because of their tech savvy-in this forum
I used to make that mistake. I still blush to think that I once suggested that CMLover might be speaking about something from inexperienced youth!!!

---a middle-aged member
I dont know where you get your facts from.But the last time I saw CML , he was Twenty something , indeed.
And that was not long ago.

You youngsters! You drive me crazy!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Jul 2009, 01:25

Nick,
Youngsters (!) of a 'certain age'
Are supposed to go crazy, I hear
Which with all might we desist

You, near mid point, the acme of age,
Do not be driven crazy, fair friend--
Hark, fifties are the very best, we know!
Neither youth nor the child we are now

Trust us who have traversed many miles--
It is keeping company with young minds
That keep us alive and from driving you crazy!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 25 Jul 2009, 01:41

"You youngsters! You drive me crazy!" - They are our hope and growing pain; let us work with them

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 25 Jul 2009, 01:48

Arasi...

There's another one...

Younger-at-heart than I am: she must be to be a poet

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 25 Jul 2009, 07:30

Thank you Coolji for your kind appreciation.

As our brother-member, VK RAMAN, wrote ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“What we do today to make a difference in CM will take care of tomorrowÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢. We all can certainly and must do in this context in keeping our own great culture in tact. For this we must make a campaign along with the music-teachers as always the acts of teachers affect the society either in the construction or destruction of it. If you refer all my posts in my thread ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“AMS Easy Methods-2007 - Teaching & Learning MethodsÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢ under the main thread Sangitakalalaya you can find many details in this regard in which way we can build up standards in this context.

The main characteristic in our music is Manodharma-sangita and we must strive hard in maintaining standards irrespective of any obstruction in preserving our own culture. amsharma

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Jul 2009, 07:48

VKR,
This is not about the growing ones but the grown-out ones who like the bard of Avon and others say, experience the return of childhood at the end of their lives

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 25 Jul 2009, 08:50

This was passed to us by our yoga teacher. Thought it is appropriate to mention it here

"The mind is its own kind of dance floor. What this generation could do
from our rocking chairs could literally rock the world. If in fact the
highest, most creative work is the work of consciousness, then in slowing
down we're not doing less; we're doing more. Having slowed down
physically, we're in a better space to rev up psychically. We are
becoming contemplative. We are shifting from the outer to the inner not
in order to begin our demise, but to reseed and regreen the consciousness
of the planet. And that's what is happening now: We're going slower in
order to go deeper, in order to go faster in the direction of urgently
needed change." ----from The Age of Miracles, by Marianne
Williamson

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 25 Jul 2009, 10:14

coolkarni wrote:HM has a much larger base than what is understood in some quarters . It has absorbed alien influences , for quite some time now and moved on for the better.

Yes, indeed. Furthermore, HM preserves much better the fundamentals of what is truly classical music. The following is also very large and growing, both in India and outside. The internet has brought many of the very best recordings in HM to a wide audience. HM is followed in all of India except TN, Kerala and southern parts of Karnataka and Andhra. While HM also has its problems of generational continuity, quality is much better preserved.

CM is essentially reduced to repetition of religious-themed songs that happen to be set to classical ragas and talas. Renditions are all about running helter-skelter and executing some familiar "ta-da-ri-na" phrases as acrobatically as possible, sing a few familiar words of puranic imagery, blast the audience with some swaras, and be done. Raga expositions (whether in kriti or alapa) lack depth of thought and execution. Manodharma is unimaginative, repetitive, and tuned towards trivial gimmicks. The label of "genius" seems to be directly correlated with the number of facial contortions, wild gesticulations, and level of "karnakathora" voice production. A trend towards singing and composing in trite and trivial ragas (given the name of "rare" ragas) signals further doom. Kritis by and large have no new thoughts or themes, no new exploration, almost total breakdown of technical excellence, a general lack of care and thought in all aspects of composition and exposition. Focus is on quantity instead of quality (eg., "X musician has recorded 50 CDs in last year, or Y composer has composed in all 72 melakarta ragas"). "Child prodigies" and "geniuses" abound in every neighborhood.

So the times in which we live bring their own pluses and minuses along.What we miss is a set of people who straddle across these generational gaps and seamlessly bring the best part of one to the other.

Unfortunately, the present generation is busy destroying exactly what was good in the previous generation, and propagating the bad.

True the questions are stark and clear.What remains to be acted upon, is a set of answers.

Very true. Answers exist but a "dumbed-down" next generation may be incapable of taking good advice.

SR

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 25 Jul 2009, 10:24

MKR (Ramesh),

Ramasubramanian M.K wrote:As a veteran listener(60 plus years of listening),I can categorically say that the doom and gloom is exaggerated--the proof--the Rasikas Forum--a vibrant platform of which I was unashamedly unaware of till recently--is the bulwark against the kind of decay that is being lamented--look at the array of contributors--of all ages -mostly the youth because of their tech savvy-in this forum,their genuine concern for the hoary past and propagation for the future, I for one in my twilight years cannot be more optimistic than I am now about our music.

Very well said. Such venues (enabled by modern information technology) are indeed a hope to guard against decayed standards, if used properly. I sincerely hope you are right.

I for one would be glad to assist in any endeavour that the Forum readers wish to start towards ameliorating the current concerns.

How about 5 people stand up in every sangeet sabha and request the musician to sing the compositions in a slow speed, to start with ?

SR

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 25 Jul 2009, 10:46

Complex topic! Calling all the experts!! =)

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 25 Jul 2009, 20:53

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Jul 2009, 20:59

Cool

How long have you been waiting to slide that link into the conversation

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:04

Furthermore, HM preserves much better the fundamentals of what is truly classical music.

This is not to start a CM - HM row, not my intention at all, but just an informational query on the above value judgment 'truly'.

What about the 10 and more gamakas that are often quoted from classical books? To my ears, HM seemed to have refined all that and moved in a new direction.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:16

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Jul 2009, 21:39

The benefits have been immense. You are the Internet DJ, a musical sabari.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Jul 2009, 22:25

But a DJ only has to reach out for the stacks of records. Here is one who is a gatherer of honey all his life and has to locate a particular one in a beehive which has God knows how much storage repositories!
Mr. MadhuSAlA

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 25 Jul 2009, 22:38

coolkarni wrote:Yes.
And I get back to my old peeve that rasikas.org can make a difference by doing something substantial in the Real world (as opposed to the virtual world).
It has reached a point where it can no longer be just a Chat Room
There are significant and laudable individual intiatives like Sangeethapriya , personal blogs etc and what will matter in the end is just a Vision and a Matching of Resources and Activities.

Cool,

I have heard this more than once now. It appears the vision is already within you. What exactly is the plan?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 25 Jul 2009, 23:38

"what will matter in the end is just a Vision and a Matching of Resources and Activities" - now we are talking substance; how many will like to bell the cat, individually and collectively?

rajesh_rs · Post by **rajesh_rs** » 25 Jul 2009, 23:47

coolkarni wrote:
rajesh_rs wrote:I wonder if it is safe to say that Hindustani music is more at peril

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WEo5bnz ... re=related

Dont miss some fine links of Mogubhai and Nachiketha Sharma there...

Excellent. Thanks, Coolkarni. And the following links show how the Carnatic tradition has had some fine contributions from the Wesleyan University.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8iCm8gAP9Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nlkmq9otgw

I am humbled and proud at the same time to see people of a foreign culture take to our music so well. Surely all hope is not lost.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 26 Jul 2009, 03:21

vasanthakokilam wrote:What about the 10 and more gamakas that are often quoted from classical books? To my ears, HM seemed to have refined all that and moved in a new direction.

Gamakas of all types ("dashavidha" or more) are existent in both traditions. In HM they vary depending on the raga, composition type, gharana, vocal/instrumental music etc. They are used carefully and sometimes even sparingly. Many modern CM practitioners apply gamakas more indiscriminately/insensitively - its like adding so much spice that the underlying flavor/substance of the food is buried. Or perhaps it is an attempt to "spice up" compositions that have little underlying substance and cannot stand on their own without gratuitous flourishes. Gamakas have become "gimmickas".

SR

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Jul 2009, 03:25

Hey, I asked about HM but you take pot shots at CM.

.... Thanks for the info on HM.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 26 Jul 2009, 03:46

srkris wrote:What exactly is the plan?

For example, rasikas.org could facilitate connections between non-Chennai-circuit**, preferably non-professional musicians and composers, sound engineers, and IT experts to come together (physically or virtually) to create quality music. Professional musicans should be welcome if they are interested in doing something different from the usual.

This could then be packaged into free "virtual concerts" featuring multiple artists and fresh compositions/ideas/performance styles, that can be accessed by listeners through a network of mailing lists that people can subscribe to. This cannot be simply a collection of audio files. An aesthetically pleasing package is necessary.

The only way to make a difference is to get people to understand that there is a better alternative to attending the hackneyed "sangeet sabha" type of kacheris.

SR

** I don't have anything personal against "Chennai-circuit" musicians. But unlike HM which has numerous gharanas and centers, the Chennai/TN-centric CM means that after a while, all the performers start to sound, look, and act similar. We need something different.

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 26 Jul 2009, 04:59

Sangeet Rasik wrote: The only way to make a difference is to get people to understand that there is a better alternative to attending the hackneyed "sangeet sabha" type of kacheris.

Does this better alternative exist currently? If so, please do provide more details. I for one would love to understand this.

Or are you simply saying "there ought to be a better alternative"? If so, I'll understand and sympathize, but will not hold my breath.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 26 Jul 2009, 05:49

gn.sn42 wrote:Does this better alternative exist currently? If so, please do provide more details. I for one would love to understand this.

Or are you simply saying "there ought to be a better alternative"? If so, I'll understand and sympathize, but will not hold my breath.

Both, and neither. There "ought to be a better alternative", and the capabilities for that are also there as I mentioned - but it needs organization. I responded to the views of several members above who want to do something.

SR

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Jul 2009, 06:29

coolkarni wrote: I also mentioned that we are great when it comes to regretting a loss or glorifying a past.
But are poor in placing high value on what we have in the present. And conserving that legacy for posterity.

Ironic coolji - that this thread has become exactly that and doesnt really address the above. What we have now is useless (and decadent), what was then or elsewhere is great and so the "make our balance sheet healthy" we simply ought to turn back the clock. Now how often have we heard this?

Bottomline - by many accounts cm has a thriving audience (and potential artists), who value the art for what it IS today. It is hard to achieve a wider audience by saying the the value proposition today in compleletey defunc, we are glorfying bad art and art needs to be redefined etc etc. Of course, there is no doubt it does not have wider reach, but did it the golden years - i.e. the years of past when the music apparently was much better?

Arun

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 26 Jul 2009, 07:06

arunk wrote:Ironic coolji - that this thread has become exactly that and doesnt really address the above. What we have now is useless (and decadent), what was then or elsewhere is great and so the "make our balance sheet healthy" we simply ought to turn back the clock. Now how often have we heard this?

I don't know about the other posters, but I want to clarify that I'm advocating looking to the future with a fresh perspective, albeit some of it derived from the "pre-decadence" era and from elsewhere within the Indian cultural edifice. I'm not a believer in "turning the clock back".

Bottomline - by many accounts cm has a thriving audience (and potential artists), who value the art for what it IS today. It is hard to achieve a wider audience by saying the the value proposition today in compleletey defunc, we are glorfying bad art and art needs to be redefined etc etc. Of course, there is no doubt it does not have wider reach, but did it the golden years - i.e. the years of past when the music apparently was much better?

Wider reach is not the goal as such, but only a natural result of strength. Shrinking reach is the natural result of weakness. If you're not seeing the symptoms of decay, you cannot treat them either. The numbers may be healthy (for now) but the art has stagnated or declined in quality and depth. This conclusion is inescapable. In many ways we are honestly in a situation where the "old stuff" is better than the "state-of-the-art stuff".

The bottomline is when one sits in a concert or listens to a new CD or clicks on a Youtube video, and hears/sees a regurgitation of the same thing again. Classical music is supposed to be thought-provoking, interesting, and technically outstanding...not repetitive, noisy, trivial, and aesthetically devoid. I described the "state-of-the-art" in a previous post. If one is happy with that level of quality, then of course all is well and dandy. We don't have to do anything, just sit back and enjoy the "king's new clothes".

SR

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 26 Jul 2009, 07:33

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Jul 2009, 07:50

SR - your posts say a different story e.g. #23 - maybe you mean something else but I have heard some of the complaints therein voiced exactly the same way by people complaining about *change* (not stagnation) in cm, and how people should simply stick to what was done by the elders of yester years i.e. by people who want to rollback the clock.

BTW, IMO there is no such thing as "pre-decadence" era. That is heavily personal and subjective (as to exactly what constitutes that era) at best, and simply an utopian myth at worst (i.e. in reality). So is the term "purely classical" - simply depends on who you are asking. what they like, and what timeframe they are pointing at.

The simple fact is the people who appreciate the music today, appreciate because they like it - exactly the way it is - including its technical aspects - yes the exact same music that you say "is repetitive, noisy, trivial and aesthetically devoid". It is a colossal mistake to paint broad strokes based on such strong prejudices - and you are not the first one to do this either. Again, where have I heard this before?

For every 1 person cherishes what they consider as classical music and uses that to put down today's music, there are 10 others who like the contemporary form of CM. That one person would of course immediately question the musical acumen of those 10 - well heard that also too often! Anyway, whether the art as practiced today is better/worse than before, or better/worse in technical merits than XYZ art is all subjective voodoo. It is the way it is - given how it has evolved. It DOES evolve - not necessarily in the path we like, we want - but when an art's numbers are healthy and growing, it really does not stagnate. CM has never stagnated. It will not based on its status today even if you compare it to a few decades ago. And not everyone needs to like it as it is today. Of course its evolution path/velocity can certainly change - although to be honest I do not find your compositions (while admirable) nowhere near ground breaking or "art salvaging" say as some of the things you complain about in post #23. Even so, if the evolution of CM takes it exactly to the prime destination you desire, I will guarantee that one thing will remain: At *that* time we will have people complain how we are in a decadent state, the art has changed completely and want to get back to the pristine days i.e. of today

Arun

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 26 Jul 2009, 08:54

arunk wrote:SR - your posts say a different story e.g. #23 - maybe you mean something else but I have heard some of the complaints therein voiced exactly the same way by people complaining about *change* (not stagnation) in cm, and how people should simply stick to what was done by the elders of yester years i.e. by people who want to rollback the clock.

I think you either do not read the post, or between the eye and the brain and the fingers there is some alteration of content. I say (again) that I described the "state-of-the-art". I don't recall, nor in fact see, any statement that we should therefore go back to what the "elders" did. Your reply does not make any sense to me at all, I am sorry to say.

BTW, IMO there is no such thing as "pre-decadence" era. That is heavily personal and subjective (as to exactly what constitutes that era) at best, and simply an utopian myth at worst (i.e. in reality). So is the term "purely classical" - simply depends on who you are asking. what they like, and what timeframe they are pointing at.

These type of comments IMO are mere obfuscation and a waste of time and bandwidth. For example, classical Sanskrit literature is defined by certain parameters. Vedic, epic, classical, and post-classical literature are all different. Indian classical music is also a well-defined entity with certain measures of quality. These fundamental measures do not change and they are timeless. It is not something that dabblers and dilettantes can define according to whatever they feel like. Forms of composition and performance may change, but basic parameters have not changed since the Natyashastra or Sangitaratnakara. Again, I am commenting on those basic parameters of excellence. Did I say, for example, that musicians are not performing prabandhas of the 1600s or not using veena for accompaniment ? Every observation I made is to do with basic parameters of classical music which should not be degraded.

The simple fact is the people who appreciate the music today, appreciate because they like it - exactly the way it is - including its technical aspects - yes the exact same music that you say "is repetitive, noisy, trivial and aesthetically devoid". It is a colossal mistake to paint broad strokes based on such strong prejudices - and you are not the first one to do this either. Again, where have I heard this before?

This is essentially saying that "since I've heard this before, it must be incorrect this time as well" or "we are like this only". Informed criticism (which usually arises from study and reflection) is different from prejudice (which usually arises from unfamiliarity and ignorance). If you have heard it before, perhaps you should have paid closer attention last time. Or did you provide the same response last time too ? One advantage of such a response is that it is easy to make. No effort needed.

For every 1 person cherishes what they consider as classical music and uses that to put down today's music, there are 10 others who like the contemporary form of CM. That one person would of course immediately question the musical acumen of those 10 - well heard that also too often!

Where are you getting these numbers from - have you done a survey ? Or is this just idle speculations that you are trying to pass off as insights ? What place does this have in the discussion ?

Anyway, whether the art as practiced today is better/worse than before, or better/worse in technical merits than XYZ art is all subjective voodoo.

It is not "subjective voodoo". On the other hand, your attempts to dismiss these criticisms with half-baked theories and absurdities (which really make no sense at all when I read over them), is certainly "mumbo-jumbo". Please, no more of this.

Of course its evolution path/velocity can certainly change - although to be honest I do not find your compositions (while admirable) nowhere near ground breaking or "art salvaging" say as some of the things you complain about in post #23.

You are entitled to your opinion. It is one of those things that we all have.

It is up to future generations to gauge the level of "groundbreaking" or "art-salvaging" of present endeavors. I have never made such claims, not because I don't believe in the quality of my work but because it is not appropriate for me to make such claims. On the other hand, I take great pride in producing work that I am 100% sure is of a far better quality than the situation I describe in "post #23". That is good enough for me and good for CM as well. I also take pride in the fact that this work is based upon sound knowledge and a degree of creativity, not upon "hand-waving", quackery, and dilettantism. If you can produce higher quality, why not go for it? Or perhaps it does not matter - since in the worldview you describe, you can essentially produce anything and label it "classical music", and there will surely be takers for it.

Even so, if the evolution of CM takes it exactly to the prime destination you desire, I will guarantee that one thing will remain: At *that* time we will have people complain how we are in a decadent state, the art has changed completely and want to get back to the pristine days i.e. of today

That is the type of "chai-dukaan" philosophy that we can do very well without, I think. I am not interested in how many people are complaining versus how many are not. Even if only one person is complaining and there is a sound basis for the complaint, it has value. Ultimately, substantial accomplishments by a relative few (the more the better) with clarity of ideas and purpose, will effect the desired positive change....and there will always be onlookers to provide crackerjack philosophical comments.

Let me repeat verbatim - I am talking about moving to the future with a fresh perspective that does not ignore timeless values, and not a "return to the past".

What are you talking about ? I can't see anything cohesive or useful.

I am also not interested in the guarantee which you offer, since it has no relevance to anything useful.

SR

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Jul 2009, 09:10

Arun,
As you say, even if there are a few people who think that today's CM is healthy to that one person who thinks that it is ailing, I think CM is in good shape. Subjective voodoos (!) can inhabit and inhibit some minds, but nothing is new there either. MMI was blasted by such people in his time but his music lives on. They decried his 'tara lallAs' and stayed away from his concerts as if his music had no merit. There were others who worshipped his music. There were many other performers who doled out the same stuff even in those days.
We don't have to panic or pan today's music as if there is an urgency for reformation.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Jul 2009, 09:21

SR,
I am sorry, our posts crossed. Not that I am up to discussing the points you make. As you well know, I am not qualified for that. The reasons are obvious. If Arun is half-baked, well, then I am just clay (if you know any tamizh, veRum kaLi maN).
I know you have a purpose and 'a plan', as you mentioned elsewhere with your compositions. May they enrich the bhaNDAr of new compositions.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 26 Jul 2009, 09:32

arasi wrote:SR, The reasons are obvious. If Arun is half-baked, well, then I am just clay (if you know any tamizh, veRum kaLi maN).

I don't know Tamil, but it is the same in Malayalam. A small correction - I didn't say "Arun is half-baked", I know very little of him. I said his post contained half-baked and unreasonable theories and speculations - "veRum kaLi" in Malayalam ("just playing"/"not serious").

I know you have a purpose and 'a plan', as you mentioned elsewhere with your compositions. May they enrich the bhaNDAr of new compositions.

Thanks. I am engaged in doing so. I appreciate your encouragement and blessings.

SR

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Jul 2009, 09:41

SR,
You left out the word maN=earth, soil, so kaLi maN is clay in its raw state--not terra cotta.
I stand corrected. I should have said that you think that Arun's speculations are half-baked.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 26 Jul 2009, 09:51

arasi wrote:SR,
You left out the word maN=earth, soil, so kaLi maN is clay in its raw state--not terra cotta.

I understand that. I then took out the word "maN" so we are left with "veRum kaLi" (a Malayalam phrase that indicates someone is just joking).

Henceforth, I will continue posting my compositions and having related discussions with any interested folks on that thread. I shall withdraw from other discussion threads on this fine forum.

Thanks.

SR

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 26 Jul 2009, 10:18

Frustration stage takes its ugly face - isolation