mari mari ninne - kambhoji or saramathi ??

HarishankarK · Post by **HarishankarK** » 29 Jul 2009, 09:33

Please some member let me know whether the krithi mari mari ninne by Thyagaraja is in Kamboji or Saramathi. I see that in reviews TM Krishna sings it in Kamboji but then why does K J Yesudas sing it in Saramathi.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 29 Jul 2009, 09:39

HarishankarK wrote:K J Yesudas sing it in Saramathi.

KJY sings in sAramathi , because illayarAja tuned that way and asked KJY to sing that way in the film sindhubhairavi. The krithi is only in kAmbOdhi , perhaps the earliest renditions in kAmbOdhi you can get is Alathur brothers.

HarishankarK · Post by **HarishankarK** » 29 Jul 2009, 11:41

But how come Ilayaraja picks up a Tyagaraja composed krith and retunes it. Is that not incorrect??

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Jul 2009, 12:09

I do not think a lot of CM folks appreciated that. When I had such a debate with a friend of mine who is a huge IR fan, his counters were two fold: 1) How many people among the CM rasika community knew about this song before IR brought it out b) How come there is no such upheaval when inside CM people retune purandara dasa krithis. I did not have a good answer to him except to silence him by saying 'Don't mess with a magnum opus, he could have picked up a thyagaraja song for which the tune is lost'. I still find it fascinating how Ilayaraja knew about this song when it was not in vogue in the eighties.

My biggest 'get back' at my IR-devotee friend and 'needle' him is to say that IR did not innovate anything. He took Mari Mari Ninne and slapped on the melody of Mokashamu Galada on top it for the most part. Anybody could have done that!! These days, we talk about other topics

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 29 Jul 2009, 12:41

Saramathi one is a cinema song and has nothing to do with carnatic music except from borrowing the lyrics used by thyagaraja. I have no idea why someone would want to tamper with one of the most brilliant kamboji kirthis composed by thyagaraja swamigal. Basically carnatic music only knows one mari mari ninne and thats the one in kamboji.

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 29 Jul 2009, 12:45

vasanthakokilam wrote:I do not think a lot of CM folks appreciated that. When I had such a debate with a friend of mine who is a huge IR fan, his counters were two fold: 1) How many people among the CM rasika community knew about this song before IR brought it out b) How come there is no such upheaval when inside CM people retune purandara dasa krithis. I did not have a good answer to him except to silence him by saying 'Don't mess with a magnum opus, he could have picked up a thyagaraja song for which the tune is lost'. I still find it fascinating how Ilayaraja knew about this song when it was not in vogue in the eighties.

My biggest 'get back' at my IR-devotee friend and 'needle' him is to say that IR did not innovate anything. He took Mari Mari Ninne and slapped on the melody of Mokshamu Galada on top it for the most part. Anybody could have done that!! These days, we talk about other topics

Alathur brothers used to sing it alot. I have also heard Chengulpet Ranganathan rendered it in extensive detail.
IR's purpose in tuning the lyric is a mystery to me. We might see someone tune O rangashaye in atana one day or kadanuvariki in bilahari

HarishankarK · Post by **HarishankarK** » 29 Jul 2009, 16:25

I think that there is a difference between Purandara Dasa compositions and Thyagaraja compositions. The difference is that for thiyagaraja compositions proper manuscripts are available for identifying the raga of each composition and this has been passed through to the next generation of musicians. So also for Syama Sastri compositions. However although for Purandara dasa compositions - hope such raga confirmation for compositions is not available. Hence the argument "just becuase Purandara dasa compositions are tuned in different ragas by different musicians" does not hold good for Thyagaraja compositions. I feel waht Ilayaraja has done is very wrong (with all due respect for his knowledge and talent) and must be condemned. This is almost like propriety / patent theft !@@

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 29 Jul 2009, 16:55

HarishankarK wrote:This is almost like propriety / patent theft !@@

Don't patents expire in 20 years?

grsastrigal · Post by **grsastrigal** » 29 Jul 2009, 20:47

I happened to discuss with Ilayaraja once on this subject. He said that he wanted to speed up (to give pace) the song so that it finishes in 4 minutes. (Mari mari in Kambodhi is very slow as we all know) He also tried Kamalamanohari, chakravaham and sudha dhanyasi but at last, he settled in Saramathi. Of course, one dikshitar kriti was also discussed... It is also Yesudos' choice to sing a song on Saramathi. It was pure accidental that "mari mari" was selected and saramathi raagam perfectly suited.

He finished by saying- "I have to satisfy A,B & C grade fans with my songs. With my experience I was sure that day, this pace of the song would make the song a "hit" and Yesudoss too agreed"

He also shared- "That was the only film (Sindu bhairavi) where SPB never sang a song in a Balachander movie. But Balanchander played all the songs to SPB before the official release of the audio, and SPB liked that "Mari Mari" among others."

Though I, personally, like old songs and Vishwanathan Ramamoorthy, I treat Ilayaraja in high esteem. He is a wealth of knowledge in music especially in CM. Amazing person.

NB- To my knowledge, Yesudoss never sang in Saramathi in concerts. He refused 2-3 concerts (where I attended) and sing in Kambodhi as a last piece.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Jul 2009, 21:00

grsatrigal: Thanks for that info. I do not think IR has even shared this level of detail publicly. That sounds reasonable. A couple of reactions from IR I remember was quite defensive and did not come across well.

Still, how did he accidentally even come across Mari Mari Ninne? Was he already familiar with the song? or Was he thumbing through a book of Thyagaraja Krithis and happened to find the lyrics interesting? Or Someone CM knowledgeable in his circle brought it to him? Or he picked it for the reason that it was not a song in vogue at that time. Just curious. Mainly because during the time Sindhu Bhairavi was made, I do not think Mari Mari Ninne was not sung by many and this song is known mainly to those who followed the masters like Alathur Bros and Chengleput Ranganathan.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 29 Jul 2009, 21:40

GRS
You gave a context from the source . This used to be a topic that I have discussed few decades back with my friends in school/college.Here is my theory.

Please remember the music director has to get with the story & screenplay of the director .For sure director KB must have first decided that suhasini has to drive the point to sivakumar that he has to sing so that masses understand CM . In order to do that the folk came into play , so illayaraja had to tune the song in a somewhat jana ranjakamana fashion

I am assuming the song pAdariyen pAdippariyan was first tuned by illayaraja in saramathi , creating folkish janaranjakamAna tune . KambOdhi before that would have been a disaster. So illayaraja possibly wanted to tune it in the same rAga saramathi. Suhasini is almost like a vidushi , when you see the film we can always assume that suhasini got the rAgam sAramati of mari mari ninnE and wanted to sing in the same rAgam(that is implicit) and then she sings pAdariyen.

The million dollar question why mari mari ninnE was taken before . I dont know for sure if that is a term in all families .In lot of thamizh speaking families we tell kids to sleep and the colloquial term we use is "mari mari". I recollect few of relatives using the word "mari mari" and asking their kids to sleep. Incidentally when sivakumar sings in the concert there will be quite a few yawning mari mari character . Also there is a minor chance that KJY may not be comfortable to present mari mari in kAmbOdhi.

Also for your information dorakuna ituvanti sevA is in bilahari , but KV Mahadevan tuned that in kalyAni in the film shankarabharanam . But no one talks about the morph. I guess all this is artistic liberty and the art of film making .

Time for "mari mari" for me ,I will just listen to this saramathi and then sleep instead of alathur brothers kAmbOdhi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBagqESV ... re=related

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Jul 2009, 21:55

I always found IR's reasoning never addresses the real gripe of the many people who think what he did was not appropriate. I mean he picked this particular song, some other raga, didn't like the tune/tempo the song and so cross-fitted both. But IMO, IR knew or must have known very well that he would ruffle feathers in certain arena by doing what he did at that time, which could have played a role in emboldening him (at least in one interview he has given the impression that he really does not like the moral highbrow attitude of cm world). If this premise is right, IMO he ended up barking at the wrong tree.

The raga for this krithi is well established as original. By changing it, he is signaling "the original raga of krithis" never really matter (even for those that are being practiced as such say as opposed to annamayya's songs which are in ragas not in use), and one can simply change the tempo, tala, raga as one sees it. Of course, this kind of "adaptation" is not unknown in other genres - maybe he is saying why not here too. For e.g. in film world as well as WM, it is not uncommon for an entirely new adaptation of existing work - and this is also considered as honoring.

I think this was an intentionally created firestorm. I myself cannot see the justification. There are real "wrongs" that could be questioned. This is perhaps unnecessary.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Jul 2009, 22:05

vk - the difference is for those dasa songs etc. the original tunes were lost (atleast for most of them?). For this krithi, it wasnt. It was certainly not a lost krithi - although not common. If IR thought it was a lost krithi (in terms of tune) and he was bringing it about, then it was just a bad mistake. But IIRC, he knew the tune and just did not feel it matched the mood. Of course we dont know he was particular about the lyrics of this song (as to why it specifically was the best fit for what he wanted).

But we do have cases (e.g. nagumOmu, mAyE etc.) where tunes, ragas did morph in the last century. But they are not universally accepted as "ok" either - accepted largely, but also frowned upon in some circles. In his case, it is frowned upon largely, and no acceptance in the cm world

Arun

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 30 Jul 2009, 01:39

vasanthakokilam wrote:I do not think a lot of CM folks appreciated that. When I had such a debate with a friend of mine who is a huge IR fan, his counters were two fold: 1) How many people among the CM rasika community knew about this song before IR brought it out

VK: As a 'die-hard' tyAgarAja bhakta, it was your job to counter with - I'd rather people did not know of it in kAmbhOji, rather than know it in its mutilated sAramati form, whatever the involved reasoning is!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Jul 2009, 06:38

Ravi: Very good

I will definitely find a way to use it.

Thanks for all the ammunition, folks. I have enough new stuff to poke at my friend for another debate.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 31 Jul 2009, 01:07

I am more in synch with Arun! My amateur response to IR is
http://www.sendspace.com/file/kaeqxg
Of course superb cine singers like chitra and KJY can do wonders with it!

Isn't it better to cut the shoes to fit the feet than cutting the feet themselves