Comparison Between Carnatic Music & Western Music

[N.Nirmalan]

Can someone in the group explain similarities & differences between Carnatic Music & Western Music.
Thanks
Nirmalan

[srinivasrgvn]

-

[Nick H]

Perhaps the simple answer is, "No."

But there are many relevant posts on the forum; I think member arunk has written quite a lot that is pertinent. He comes to mind, I'm sure I'm forgetting many other members. Search, and you might find?


Err... Call my cynical, and you won't be far wrong, but I suppose your son wouldn't be doing this topic for an exam or project?

[ragam-talam]

Nick, you may be right after all... http://rasikas.org/forums/post125055.html#p125055

Nirmalan, perhaps you can start by telling us what you think the answer is?

[Nick H]

That's what I thought too. I remember the Unix forums on Usenet, with their regular "Please give me a script that will accomplish blah blah blah," questions, and their regular, "Do your own college homework" answers!

But I'd willingly eat my words if wrong.

I do wish, though, that people would do some searching before asking these very broad questions!

[ignoramus]

Nick

are you a Unix guy too?

[arunk]

I would think asking for an answer or a specific solution that exactly fits the problem (say ready-made code or math proof) would be bad. But if you are asking for general information (as in general would be the case), I would consider all this as being part of research - in fact way more meaningful than googling and sifting through all the noise.

Arun

[Nick H]

Arun, you could well be right, although I'm sure that Google would give some good leads, even on this topic. I really am open to the possibility of Nirmalan's good faith here, and perhaps I should never have mentioned my thought --- but it is the bold question, with no accompanying contribution that rings alarm bells.

ignoramus; I used to be a "Unix guy" once, but that was a while back now. I have not worked at all since 2003, and laziness and a dimming of the techie flame causes me to sit in front of Windows, rather than Linux. Mind you, I was chuffed to discover, recently, that the remote control to a music-streaming device is actually a linux system that I can log into! Barely bigger than... err... a remote control!

[mridangamkid]

This is actually a very interesting topic I feel, considering I have grown up into a society where Rap and Rock are "in" with my peers. However "Western music" is very broad, because unlike most Indian music (specifically Carnatic and Hindustani), in Western society, the style of music usually changes from generation to generation. Granted "Rock" has been around relatively long (relative to other music forms in America), I'm sure one wouldn't say Elvis Presley, Led Zeppelin, or Green day play the same type of music.

If looking back in Western music in general, I would say Carnatic music is most similar to Jazz. Whenever speaking to Americans, I would always point out Jazz seems to be a dumb'd down version of Carnatic. Jazz, if I understand correctly, has a lot of extemporaneous portions throughout a concert, a long with the "traditional" song (much like carnatic). The reason why it is dumb'd down however is because Carnatic music has a different degree's,- which is raagam and thalam. I am not positive, however I believe Jazz usually uses the 4/4 time.... meaning Adi thalam Chathusra nadai (please correct me if I am wrong with that), however they do occasionally go into thisra nadai, yet I have rarely heard a kanda nadai or beyond.

I feel Classical music is also similar to Carnatic, in the sense that it has a "type" of raagam, however nowhere near as complex nor not as many. It is very melodious like carnatic music however the rhythmic structure of most pieces isn't as strong as must carnatic compositions (nor as complex). Also, i don't believe anybody would play any impromptu/extemporaneous pieces but I could be wrong.

If someone could correct anything I said I'd really appreciate it because I haven't formerly learned any jazz or "classical" music, I'm just saying this from what I have heard.

[VK RAMAN]

Good observation mridangamkid.

[cacm]

This is actually a very interesting topic I feel, considering I have grown up into a society where Rap and Rock are "in" with my peers. However "Western music" is very broad, because unlike most Indian music (specifically Carnatic and Hindustani), in Western society, the style of music usually changes from generation to generation. Granted "Rock" has been around relatively long (relative to other music forms in America), I'm sure one wouldn't say Elvis Presley, Led Zeppelin, or Green day play the same type of music.

If looking back in Western music in general, I would say Carnatic music is most similar to Jazz. Whenever speaking to Americans, I would always point out Jazz seems to be a dumb'd down version of Carnatic. Jazz, if I understand correctly, has a lot of extemporaneous portions throughout a concert, a long with the "traditional" song (much like carnatic). The reason why it is dumb'd down however is because Carnatic music has a different degree's,- which is raagam and thalam. I am not positive, however I believe Jazz usually uses the 4/4 time.... meaning Adi thalam Chathusra nadai (please correct me if I am wrong with that), however they do occasionally go into thisra nadai, yet I have rarely heard a kanda nadai or beyond.

I feel Classical music is also similar to Carnatic, in the sense that it has a "type" of raagam, however nowhere near as complex nor not as many. It is very melodious like carnatic music however the rhythmic structure of most pieces isn't as strong as must carnatic compositions (nor as complex). Also, i don't believe anybody would play any impromptu/extemporaneous pieces but I could be wrong.

If someone could correct anything I said I'd really appreciate it because I haven't formerly learned any jazz or "classical" music, I'm just saying this from what I have heard.

YOU ARE MOSTLY CORRECT BUT ARTISTS LIKE CHARLIE PARKER, THELONIUS MONK, JOHN COLTRANE & OTHERS HAVE USED 5THS& 7THS EXTENSIVELY THO' NOT IN THE EXPLICIT WAY THAT THEY ARE USED IN CARNATIC MUSIC. BY THE WAY USE OF CAPITALS IS NOT TO INDICATE ANGER! I HAVE GREAT REGARD FOR YOU& YOUR VIEWS. ALSO I FEEL IN JAZZ THEY TEND TO TAKE WELL KNOWN SONGS & DO SOMETHING SIMILAR TO OUR NIRAVAL& SWARAM AS WELL AS THE TALAM. THERE DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE THE RIGOUROUS RULES WE SEEM TO HAVE THO' THE SCALES, TIME ETC ARE STRICTLY OBSERVED. OTHERWISE THEY WOULD FUSE INTO "MODERN MUSIC" WHERE VARIOUS EXPERIMENTS APPEAR TO BE ALLOWED.VKV

[srikant1987]

I am not positive, however I believe Jazz usually uses the 4/4 time.... meaning Adi thalam Chathusra nadai (please correct me if I am wrong with that), however they do occasionally go into thisra nadai, yet I have rarely heard a kanda nadai or beyond.

I wouldn't say 4/4 is Adi tALam catuSra naDai as such. I think it means you can hear the song as groups of four units, each the 1/4 size of a whole note. Now size of a whole note itself is somewhat vague.

Jazz does use crazy time signatures occassionally ... I mean a little more often than we'd think it does (I'm being vague, sorry ) And they can be really crazy time signatures, I think they even try things like 13/8. There's one Take Five set to 5/4 which I'm very fond of .

Jazz is a serious and can be an immensely satisfying kind of music. VKV sir, is scale to be adhered to that strictly in Jazz? Moreover, westerners refer to the "jazz" scale, isn't that MORE OR LESS the only one jazz uses?

[vasanthakokilam]

I just checked with my friend who knows a bit about this stuff. He says at one time 4/4 was the only predominant rhythmical theme in Jazz but these days 5/4 and 7/4 are quite common. He shared a joke. Old time jazz musicians count to seven like this

One....Two....Three....Four....Five....Six....Sev. ....en....

srikant: See if this describes what you are after: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_scale

[gn.sn42]

I would always point out Jazz seems to be a dumb'd down version of Carnatic.

A bit rude, no? Both Jazz and CM are wonderful music genres, and we would all be better off listening to, appreciating, and learning about both.

There's one Take Five set to 5/4 which I'm very fond of

And why not?

Here's Brubeck from 1961.
And here's a slightly mad Al Jarreau from 1976.

And here's another favorite of mine from Brubeck: Blue Rondo a la Turk. The TV graphics are crazy; the "a la Turk" bit seems to be a reference to the Turkish usul, another complex system I would very much like to learn more about.

[Nick H]

I find similarities between Indian music (C or H) and some of the rock music of the sixties. Some of the more folk-based stuff is highly ornamented, with lots of grace notes; some of the more crazy, psychedelic, stuff is heavy on improvisation.

And then, rock concerts had the thani (Percussion solo) --- for which many of the audience went to the bar!

[ragam-talam]

A key distinction:
Carnatic music (Indian music in general) is melody-based.
Western (classical) music is more harmony-based.

[Nick H]

(well, whatever the reason for the question, the discussion is now happily under way! )

--- I find this melody/harmony thing overstated. There are, I think, a few forms of Western music where harmony is absolutely integral to the composition, and there is just nothing that one person can hum alone to represent that piece. However, most of the rest, from Beatles to Beethoven has, primarily, melody that can be sung; it is composed of tunes.

[vasanthakokilam]

A related feature of western music is that some melodic instruments actually belong to the percussion side. e.g Bass Guitar is there for "anchoring the harmonic framework and laying down the beat".

[rajesh_rs]

A related feature of western music is that some melodic instruments actually belong to the percussion side. e.g Bass Guitar is there for "anchoring the harmonic framework and laying down the beat".

The rhythm side?

[cacm]

I am not positive, however I believe Jazz usually uses the 4/4 time.... meaning Adi thalam Chathusra nadai (please correct me if I am wrong with that), however they do occasionally go into thisra nadai, yet I have rarely heard a kanda nadai or beyond.

I wouldn't say 4/4 is Adi tALam catuSra naDai as such. I think it means you can hear the song as groups of four units, each the 1/4 size of a whole note. Now size of a whole note itself is somewhat vague.

Jazz does use crazy time signatures occassionally ... I mean a little more often than we'd think it does (I'm being vague, sorry ) And they can be really crazy time signatures, I think they even try things like 13/8. There's one Take Five set to 5/4 which I'm very fond of .

Jazz is a serious and can be an immensely satisfying kind of music. VKV sir, is scale to be adhered to that strictly in Jazz? Moreover, westerners refer to the "jazz" scale, isn't that MORE OR LESS the only one jazz uses?

Jazz again has been influenced & has followed to some extent developments in Western Classical reg. scales as well as rythmns in terms of our music. In terms of scale Chromatic, Non-chromatic scales & compositions of other composers like Hindemith & others have changed things quite a bit. Its too complex to discuss here but in general Jazz musicians appear to be very BOLD, uninhibited in using other influences & experimenting!
To give a flavour to the extent this can go I attended a concert of Bach concertos in Central Park in the sixties where the artist played the notes on the piano but the audience had to look up on a huge screen where patterns& colors changed but no sound! As I was involved in pattern recognition at that time I saw sense in it ( The inventor of the Palm claims the brain processes almost everything in terms of patterns!). To conclude with an attempted joke (many old foggies who are v.keen on correct swarasthanams, sruti, kalapramanam etc can relate to this)many current day musicians are experimenting with sruthi, swarasthanam , kalapramanam, sarva laghu suddham eithr conciously or unconsciously....VKV

[vasanthakokilam]

Rajesh, yes, rhythm side.

[cacm]

A related feature of western music is that some melodic instruments actually belong to the percussion side. e.g Bass Guitar is there for "anchoring the harmonic framework and laying down the beat".

The rhythm side?

I am curious about what is considered as rythm. Palghat Mani Iter used to say that as every note is so many cycles per second even when one expounds on a raga its actually got a rythm to it. Logically then one cannot avoid rythm & he has implied as much. VKV

[vasanthakokilam]

VKV sir, that will be a very confusing point to consider. May be at some philosophical level there is some unity, who knows.

But at the levels we all, mere mortals, relate to, at least the Indian conception of it, layam ( rhythm ) is the periodic stresses and accents in the melody. There are stresses of different magnitudes and styles. They all contribute to the varied layam in a song.

The external abstract representation of layam is the thala. But our percussionists play to the layam and not to the thala.

The western conception of rhythm in most songs ( and not folk ) is a bit more fixed and constrained. A song is composed to an externally represented time signature. A melody can have a faster layam or a slower layam or not even correspond to the time signature at many places but in their world view, the time signature has a very predominant and direct influence on how the rhythm section exhibits the layam and follow the song.

As an example, listen to this kanda chapu of Radiohead : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TROohDNvdDc

The background beat quite steadily follows the 'tha ka tha ki ta' pattern, the time signature for this song is the compound signature 2/4 + 3/4 ( or 2/4 + 6/8 ) You can observe the same in the Take Five links that gn.sn42 posted. In both cases, the melody itself does not quite strongly exhibit the 5/4 feel in all places but the background beat provides that strong and steady beat pattern.

Now, contrast this with the CM song in kanda chapu: Tholi Jenma ( Bilahari ) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYhk5BXZ4MA

During kalpanaswaras here, the percussionists pretty much play like the Radiohead drummer/clapper ( very similar especially at the beginning ) but when it comes back to 'tholi jenma', the percussionists switch to playing to the song line.

That kind of flexibility and variety that the CM percussionists employ adds a whole different dimension to the performance and makes them quite an integral part of the exposition of the song rather than just a rhythm framework provider.

PMI in one interview says that learning the mridangam strokes and playing it proficiently takes only 10 months but learning to play to the song is a life long journey. What is captured in that statement is, the songs have built in layams and detecting them and playing to that aesthetics is quite different from playing to the thala. That is what 'pAttukku vAsikkiradu' ( playing to the song ) is all about.

[Nick H]

I don't think it is particularly useful, in making a conceptual comparison, to compare specific talas. So I will!

4/4 --- 4 beats; Eka talam. The nadai is unspecified, although, rather as in carnatic music, is likely to chatusrara. There is, however, a lot of tisra nadai, where the music is written in "triplets"

One of the biggest rhythmic differences I notice is between 6/8 and rupaka talam. That chatusra rupaka (from the 35 talams) follows the formula 121234 gives an enirely different feel to 6/8's 123123.

[mridangamkid]

@ gn.sn42

It wasn't supposed to be rude, but even many jazz fans I talk to understand that the complexity of Carnatic music can be far greater that that of Jazz, mainly because of the new degree of raagam. When I explain to them that there are only a certain amount of notes one may use, and those notes can only be performed with certain gamaka's, and with all those rules one must make different combination and permutations in a different "time" in a different "thala" and always go back to the beginning line right then and there, they realize it can be very difficult. Along with that, the drummer, would have to know what the singer will be singing, even before the singer knows what he or she is singing , PLUS, the drummer, singer and violinist may have never played in a concert with each other before, yet they would have to execute a concert as flawlessly as possible.

Perhaps "dumb down" is a bit too harsh, because Jazz is definitely no walk through the park, given the amount of instruments needed to be used, the mathematical complications that they have created (which I just learned thanks to srikant), and sheer impromptuness (I think I just made up that last word) of playing is surly difficult, but Carnatic music has added a new degree to its music.

One thing I've observed though is the use of percussion instruments. I feel usually in other genre's of music the percussion instrument plays purely a rhythmic, playing only for the beat. While in Carnatic or Hindustani, the Mridangam/Tabla would play for the song, meaning it plays a more melodious and "smoother" pattern. Could anybody put any input on this?

[vasanthakokilam]

One thing I've observed though is the use of percussion instruments. I feel usually in other genre's of music the percussion instrument plays purely a rhythmic, playing only for the beat. While in Carnatic or Hindustani, the Mridangam/Tabla would play for the song, meaning it plays a more melodious and "smoother" pattern. Could anybody put any input on this?

mk, In my post #23 above, that is what I tried to address with those examples. See if that makes sense and talks to the point you are making.

[gn.sn42]

mridangamkid, all music systems (especially "classical" ones like CM and Jazz) have rules and constraints. Comparisons are difficult - and pointless in my opinion, but the idea that a complex field like Jazz is simply "a version of" CM is surely wrong.

Many genres use teams of musicians who have just met - and Jazz is certainly well known for this. It is routine, for example, for a jazz band to call up a visiting musician in the audience and ask them to play a song with them.

Re percussion instruments, you're the drummer, not me, but I don't agree with you at all. There's a lot of complex, even melodic drumming in many other genres.

As cmlover said in another context, more understanding helps make this forum better. We all enjoy CM on this forum (though our skills and tastes may vary) but hopefully we can enjoy other forms of music as well.

[mridangamkid]

Of course comparisons are very difficult to make, but this whole thread is asking us to compare and contrast Carnatic music to Western music. I don't see how this is pointless, for this topic alone can broaden our view on Carnatic music or Jazz music... or Classical music... or Rock, and I feel we should not simply close the book on comparing/contrasting two art forms calling it "pointless".

Perhaps you are a performing Jazz musician? If so, obviously you would have much more knowledge about the field than I do and I would hope you or someone corrects me in any mistakes I make about Jazz, I am just using Jazz as an example because I have been a big fan of that genre of music and have listened to is constantly (though never learned formally).

I simply said that out of all the music forms at least I have listened to (which includes Classical, Jazz, Classic Rock, Metal Rock, Alternative Rock, and Rap), Jazz seems to be mostly similar to Carnatic along with Classical. Though my knowledge may be limited, I am only saying what I have observed strictly through ear in the past, and I hope not to offend anyone.

As for the percussion, yes I do learn Mridangam, but that certainly does not mean I know this. I know many African drums have a very melodious tune to it, but when it comes to Western Music, all I have really noticed recently is the drum set, which I don't hear much melody in... just rhythm. If we go back to classical music, they used a variety of instruments, such as the Timpani. If we look at more recent music, such as rap, computers have been used to simulate the "beat". All I am asking if there are any examples where the drum set was used to sound more melodious than rhythmic.

@Vasanthakokilam, thank you for that post. That surely helped a lot

[cacm]

vasanthakokilam:VKV sir, that will be a very confusing point to consider. May be at some philosophical level there is some unity, who knows.

The point I was trying to make again has to do with what PMI had referred to as "intrinsic rythm". This has to with general observations by many thatMDR is slow GNB s fast etc. This can be seen clearly in exposition of thanam which some have said is a combination of ragam & rythmn. Intrinsic rythmn is basic to any music & different systems define it in different ways.In North indian as opposed to south the speed( no. of notes played) can be continuously varied(jala) & in many African rythms& Gamelon music(Indonesian) there is a COMBINATION of totally different patterns at different speeds.........May be we shd. clearly say what we mean by layam, rythmn etc....VKV

[vasanthakokilam]

VKV, that is absolutey true. What I referred to as 'confusing' is this statement "....... as every note is so many cycles per second". That seems to refer to the frequency of the note which obviously does not have much to do with laya.

What you have stated in the above post is spot on. There is definitely laya in any periodic or semi-periodic or even irregularly periodic stresses and accents in the melody. That actually points out the difference between the concepts, laya and thala, in the most obvious manner.

Such stresses and accents, (laya/rhythm) are the ones that give shape to the melody. Metaphorically, laya is the skeleton and melody is the flesh and what performers do is dress it up in clothes of various colors and fabrics which we perceive as rasa.

[srkris]

VKV sir, that will be a very confusing point to consider. May be at some philosophical level there is some unity, who knows.

I find that you usually call something out of the ordinary as a philosophical construct. May I know the reason why? What is the meaning of philosophy here?

I don't find the quote of PMI inconsistent with what we already know. Even ragas are bound by time and temporal proportions, by rhythm - the way they are structured and rendered, the length of each phrasing etc.. we always ignore the laya in the raga, but that doesnt have to mean it's not there

[vasanthakokilam]

srkris: See my post #30 above for what I meant. It seems to be same as your point, if not please elaborate. ( vkv has since clarified what he meant was more along the practical plane that I was also talking about).

Since you asked about what I meant by philosophy: Not everything that has a frequency, like a note with a frequency, is laya. That is how we understand it in music and have a clear distinction between swara and laya at the practical level. On the other hand, some people believe in philosophical concepts and universal principles like the unity of melody and rhythm. Not that there is anything inherently disagreeable with such concepts, it is just in a different plane.

[ragam-talam]

Talking about CM and jazz, years ago I was listening to some lovely jazz music in a restaurant near a campus town in the US. The group had a fantastic keyboard player, a blind man. During the break I walked up to him and struck up a conversation. When he heard about my CM interest and background, he mentioned he was exposed to CM himself, and was fascinated by our music etc, esp the rhythm aspect. We discussed ragas, microtones, manodharmam, and so many other topics.

And then he mentioned something that stays with me even today... "By the way, one musician I enjoy a lot is MD Ramanathan" - I just couldn't believe these words coming out of someone with this strong American accent, and hearing them in a crowded restaurant in the US, with beer and jazz flowing all around...!

Music seems to be truly universal.

[gn.sn42]

mridangamkid, in consideration of the "kid" in your handle, I'll try to say this gently:

- comparing aspects of two genres is one thing, wholesale dismissal of one genre is another. If someone compared say a golfer's stance and swing to a cricket batsman's, I'd probably be very interested in reading about it. If they said "golf is a corrupted form of cricket" it's not a constructive comparison, hence I'd call it pointless.

- re percussion instruments, you first referred to any percussion instrument in any genre: "I feel usually in other genre's of music the percussion instrument plays purely a rhythmic, playing only for the beat"; later you've modified this to just the drum set, which is quite different.

Speaking personally, when I have come across something new with the attitude "this should be interesting, enjoyable, and informative" it usually turns out that way. Conversely, if I approach something with the idea that it will be boring or painful, it often turns out that way. I try to approach all music with an open mind and do get quite a lot of pleasure out of many forms of music.

If you wish to learn about jazz, there are lots of resources online, including jazz-specific forums where you can post questions. I would suggest "I'm interested in jazz, give me some pointers" rather than "Jazz is inferior to CM - prove me wrong" as an approach.

Here are some interesting music samples available online that may help the discussion go forward. (I hope the discussion doesn't get distracted by the specific samples, but let's see.)

Here's a cute example of a drum playing melody in a non-CM genre: Shamisen-Taiko sample

vasanthakokilam provided an example of a mridangam accompanist playing rhythm during improvisation and melody at other times. Here's a fairly exact analogue from jazz: Art Blakey on Moanin'. When the melody is playing, Blakey essentially plays along. During solos, he switches to playing a rhythmic pattern.

There's none better than Billy Taylor to explain jazz ideas, so here are some videos:

Billy Taylor and Chip Jackson demonstrate the bass played melodically

And here's a 1958 TV show that explains in very simple terms how jazz musicians improvise - something like TRS's wonderful 1-2-3-4 pallavi demonstration (thanks, coolkarni, for that!) (By the way, TRS makes several gratuitous digs at Hindustani music, which I didn't care for.)

[gn.sn42]

PMI in one interview says that learning the mridangam strokes and playing it proficiently takes only 10 months but learning to play to the song is a life long journey. What is captured in that statement is, the songs have built in layams and detecting them and playing to that aesthetics is quite different from playing to the thala. That is what 'pAttukku vAsikkiradu' ( playing to the song ) is all about.

Wasn't PMI the originator of this style of playing? I seem to remember reading somewhere that before PMI there was only rhythm, and PMI came in and changed all that.

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks gn.n42. That Shamisen Vs. Taiko is quite awesome and a great demo that is useful for the current discussion. BTW, I did not get the sense that MK was trashing Jazz, though he put mridangam playing at a higher pedestal on some aspects... anyway, that made you look for some great jazz links. Thanks.

As we go through this fascinating process, let me make sure I understand some of the words we use. When I wrote 'playing to the song/melody', I did not mean in the sense of 'playing the melody on the percussion'. MK made a passing reference to that in one of his posts above, he is probably taking about tuning of the percussion to the key of the melodic instruments. The mridangam is indeed tuned to the base sruthi of the singer and there are a few different frequencies the mridangam can produce that are thus melodically alinged but still we can not claim that mridangamist is playing melody, the mridangamist is playing to the laya built into the melody but the strokes are melodically in tune. At the other extreme, the drum set is not probably tuned to anything, and so in that sense what MK said was true for the most part The Shamisen Vs. Taiko is a great counter example ( right? )

As one of the jazz link above shows, one can definitely play melody on the base violin in addition to playing rhythm there. But that is a different thing.

So there are four separate things we are talking about.

1. Percussion instruments tuned to the melodic instruments or not...
2. Percussion playing to the buit-in laya of the melody ( Sri. Balaji refers to such laya patterns as 'Asu' I think, which are also used in kOrvai, poruttham etc in a song-appropriate fashion )
3. Percussion playing predominantly to the time signature
4. Rhythm instruments like bass guitar and bass violin, also occasionally contributing to the melody

gn.sn42, I could not catch on to what you wanted to demonstrate with the Art Blakley link. I see the drums changing the pattern while playing along with the song, I do not see the drummer aligning to the laya of the song, as a mridangamist would do. I see that in the Shamisen Vs. Taiko example, there it is quite bold and everything is out in the open. Interestingly, the melody seems to have beeen designed keeping in mind the particular style of percussion accompaniment ( no big karvai etc. ), they are really a 50-50 participation there.

Wasn't PMI the originator of this style of playing? I seem to remember reading somewhere that before PMI there was only rhythm, and PMI came in and changed all that.

I do not know and I will yield to the mridangam vidwans of the forum. I am already stretching, and over reaching beyond the limits of my minimal knowledge in these matters.

[Nick H]

Amazing story, R-T

[mridangamkid]

Thank you very much for those links gn.sn2. If I could I would take back the statements I said of Jazz being a "dumb'd down version of carnatic music", if I knew that someone would take those statements to heart. When I said that, I simply meant that Carnatic had the ragam factor to worry about... along with the the thalam and what not. I am not calling jazz Inferior by any means (though through my wording it sure looks like it)... especially after learning that it goes into 5s 7s 9s and so on, but rather it has both similarities and differences between them... one being the ragam.

I honestly don't want to argue or derail this topic even more... I just want you to understand... I am not under appreciating jazz at all... not purposefully at least. Not to mention... I'm probably biased to mridangam just a tad bit

Thank you for those links, a real treat to listen to and a even bigger lesson that I learned

[Nick H]

If I could I would take back the statements I said

There is an edit button!

But... when a conversation has moved on...

[gn.sn42]

mridangamkid, no worries; I know I've been (and will be) called out quickly when I say something without thinking it through.

vasanthakokilam, it's difficult to find a precise match for the kind of thing you're talking about (of course the taiko example was one) as the practices and traditions of the systems vary. What we call the melody in jazz has multiple layers with different instruments and so on; it's not just one line, so when a drummer "plays the melody" he's contributing to the melody, just as the trombonist might. In your example, you pointed to the constant "tha ka tha ki ta" pattern in the Radiohead example and contrasted it with the varied accompaniment provided by Ravichandran and Karthick. The point is that drummers in other systems can "play the melody" (I understand your point about tuning etc, though most drums are in fact tuned, some more precisely than others).

Here's a (poor quality) sample of Clifford Brown's Joy Spring with Max Roach on drums. You can see that in the melody, the drummer plays close to the melody; given the multiple layers involved. Later in the solos, the drum falls into a steady pattern.

This song is particularly appropriate for this thread, due to this cute story: Max Roach introduced a music student to Clifford Brown. Her thesis was on the supposed superiority of the (western) classical tradition over jazz. She ended up marrying Brown, and he wrote Joy Spring for her. (Sadly, Brown died in a car accident two years later at the age of 26.)

[gn.sn42]

PMI in one interview says that learning the mridangam strokes and playing it proficiently takes only 10 months but learning to play to the song is a life long journey. What is captured in that statement is, the songs have built in layams and detecting them and playing to that aesthetics is quite different from playing to the thala. That is what 'pAttukku vAsikkiradu' ( playing to the song ) is all about.

Wasn't PMI the originator of this style of playing? I seem to remember reading somewhere that before PMI there was only rhythm, and PMI came in and changed all that.

I do not know and I will yield to the mridangam vidwans of the forum. I am already stretching, and over reaching beyond the limits of my minimal knowledge in these matters.

Ha ha - your stretching is nothing compared to mine! I've done nothing but overreach beyond my knowledge on this forum.

I dug up my source - it's from a 1987 interview of Vellore Ramabhadran by David Nelson for his PhD thesis. Here's the relevant quote:

"With Mani Iyer's era, the mrdangam world went through a complete change - a revolution... Previously, the mrdangam player would simply keep quiet, no matter what. He introduced new life; follow the vocalist... he followed the vocalist's mood with the mrdangam. It was like another vocal; sort of a melody, rhythm, and a grasping mind... Previously, this [sings first line of ata tala Vanajakshi, then recites accompaniment accenting with the text] they will not accept... You should play only [recites madhyama kala teka] - this is orthodox view. You should not play like the song. Palani will always play (teka). But this Mani Iyer style the older generation will never accept... the conservative type never accepted (him)..."

teka is Nelson's term. comments in () are Nelson's additions; comments in [] are footnotes, ... indicate deleted text.
By the way, I highly recommend Nelson's work: Details and ordering information on Nelson's thesis.

[Nick H]

Interesting man... we corresponded for a while a few years ago, but I was soon out of my depth <Blush>. Met him all-to-briefly a couple of seasons ago; in fact had the pleasure of hearing him play. Unfortunately the one time he had free I was not, so we could not spend more than a few post-concert minutes together.

[gn.sn42]

nick H, if you're referring to David Nelson, I have not met him, but he appears to be a very interesting musician and researcher. His thesis on the tani avartanam is the only thing I've found where several masters' tanis are analyzed stroke by stroke along with pre- and post- interviews with the artists. Mostly over my head, of course, but fascinating nevertheless. He's now come out with a book on solkattu which I should probably read.

[gn.sn42]

I was recently taken to task for not mentioning steel pans in the context of melodic drums (and how could I have forgotten?), so for the sake of posterity, here are some links:

Calypso by Steel Band

Tutorial on playing a melody on Steel Pan Drums

Tutorial on how to play a Steel Drum Solo

Mendelssohn's Auf Flügeln des Gesanges with steel pan playing the voice part, followed by Menuets from Bach's French Suites No. 2 and 3, with steel pan playing along with keyboard

Gershwin's Summertime on Steel Pan

Sonny Rollins' Doxy on Steel Pan

[Nick H]

gn.sn42... yes, David Nelson. I wonder if his books will be available here?

[gn.sn42]

Mridangam Mind contains five tani avartanams (by Vellore Ramabhadran, T K Murthy, Karaikudi Mani, Palghat Raghu, and Trichy Sankaran) along with stroke-by-stoke transcriptions, analyses, and interviews. It is Nelson's PhD dissertation, and may be available at university libraries; otherwise you can order the text portion from ProQuest. The accompanying DVD, Mrdangam Mind: The tani avartanam in Karnatak Music: Five Solos, is available directly from David. I don't remember the exact pricing, just that it was a bit high but ultimately enormously worth it to me.

Solkattu Manual is a beginner's guide, and is sold online:
Wesleyan University Press sells it;
amazon.com has it at a discount;
Landmark claims to have it, but it's "Usually shipped in 30-45 Working Days" and it's more expensive than amazon, which is weird - they could simply take your order, turn around, buy it from amazon, ship it to you, and still make a profit.

There may be other outlets, I just can't find them through a quick web search.

[Nick H]

Sorry, gn.sn42 to waste your time and typing. I should have made it clear that I do have Mridangam mind. Somewhere I even have the VHS cassette of the performances that accompany it.

Thanks for the information re Solkattu Manual.

[gn.sn42]

nick H, it wasn't a waste of my time at all - perhaps someone else in the forum will be interested. It'll be a nice change from my typical posts, which are indeed a waste of everyone's time...

[vasanthakokilam]

gn.sn42 . We all know that is not true, gn.

[gn.sn42]

Seriously speaking, I think all posts on the forum are valuable - there are just those I personally find interesting and others I don't (which I can simply ignore). The great thing about this forum is that there is a lot of information here from a large number of diverse voices, and I for one have benefited greatly from going through this material.

Which reminds me, this doesn't happen by chance, it comes about because of superb moderation. I don't say this enough, but thank you, moderators.