Mutthuswamy Dikshithar (Krithis)
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vidya,
The Thevaram mentions as 'nambi nandi'
அடித்தொண்டன் நம்பிநந்தி
நீரால் திருவிளக் கிட்டமை
நீணா டறியுமன்றே.
http://www.shaivam.org/tamil/thirumurai/thiru04_102.htm ( 987) and
http://www.tamilnation.org/sathyam/east ... aram4b.pdf (p 106 : 987)
After posting, I saw your article on the subject .
What puzzles me is, how Dikshitar, who belonged to Thiruvarur, could be wrong about the shadow of the lamp - he would not have gone by any hearsay.
The Thevaram mentions as 'nambi nandi'
அடித்தொண்டன் நம்பிநந்தி
நீரால் திருவிளக் கிட்டமை
நீணா டறியுமன்றே.
http://www.shaivam.org/tamil/thirumurai/thiru04_102.htm ( 987) and
http://www.tamilnation.org/sathyam/east ... aram4b.pdf (p 106 : 987)
After posting, I saw your article on the subject .
What puzzles me is, how Dikshitar, who belonged to Thiruvarur, could be wrong about the shadow of the lamp - he would not have gone by any hearsay.
Last edited by vgvindan on 20 Mar 2008, 09:17, edited 1 time in total.
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So naminandi vs nambinandi is for prosodical exigencies a case of whether one needs a viLam or a mA in the middle.
I had assumed chAyA rahita in the literal sense of a lamp without a shadow. However it seems that it might refer to a sunbeam falling on a linga (a common architectural feature found in a lot of temples). So the interpretation does need some verification. In any case it could also just be a puranic allusion a bit of trivia that the composer has thrown in and does not have to be actually reflected in the current (then) sanctum in 1800s. Another possibility is that repeated building and rebuilding of temples do change a lot of the architectural features.
There was a discussion on this composition in the bhupalam-bauli thread I also saw someone mentioned renditions of this song - the ones I have heard of it is Shri.S.Rajam , B.Rajam Iyer and Kalpakam mami , Prof.SRJ. On a related note, I also wonder if there are any renditions of bhupali todi available ?
I had assumed chAyA rahita in the literal sense of a lamp without a shadow. However it seems that it might refer to a sunbeam falling on a linga (a common architectural feature found in a lot of temples). So the interpretation does need some verification. In any case it could also just be a puranic allusion a bit of trivia that the composer has thrown in and does not have to be actually reflected in the current (then) sanctum in 1800s. Another possibility is that repeated building and rebuilding of temples do change a lot of the architectural features.
There was a discussion on this composition in the bhupalam-bauli thread I also saw someone mentioned renditions of this song - the ones I have heard of it is Shri.S.Rajam , B.Rajam Iyer and Kalpakam mami , Prof.SRJ. On a related note, I also wonder if there are any renditions of bhupali todi available ?
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I thought rasikas might find the following link useful. A collection of videos on YouTube with dikshitar tag
http://www.nme.com/video/search/dikshitar
-Ramakriya
http://www.nme.com/video/search/dikshitar
-Ramakriya
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Thanks for the "quick-reference" link. I was listening to all the kritis and noticed that O.S. Tyagarajan is at it again:
http://www.nme.com/video/id/eMuq6jro-T0 ... /offset/40
For some reason he likes "nAgalingam" but promptly rejects "anAdilingam"....:rolleyes: Ironically, the musician's name is Tyagarajan and the raga is Shankarabharanam. From the opening seconds of the video it seems he was giving a lecture on the raga/composition before proceeding to make a hash of things.
Also odd that the accompanist U. Sivaraman continues with a straight face...he should have corrected Tyagarajan.
SR
http://www.nme.com/video/id/eMuq6jro-T0 ... /offset/40
For some reason he likes "nAgalingam" but promptly rejects "anAdilingam"....:rolleyes: Ironically, the musician's name is Tyagarajan and the raga is Shankarabharanam. From the opening seconds of the video it seems he was giving a lecture on the raga/composition before proceeding to make a hash of things.
Also odd that the accompanist U. Sivaraman continues with a straight face...he should have corrected Tyagarajan.
SR
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 07 Apr 2008, 10:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Yes indeed....the actual sahitya is "nAgalingam bhajEham anAdilingam bhajEham" ...."I hail the Nagalingam, which is without origin (anAdi)". In the puranas, Shiva is depicted in the form of anAdilingam stretching infinitely without origin or end. All "earthly" lingams are truncated representations of anAdilingam.
Tyagarajan sings "anAdilingam tyajEham" (i.e. "I reject Shiva"). Might have been understandable if he mispronounced it once, but he convincingly repeats it every time without any thought of what the meaning is. Automaton. Hardly an example for the shishyas - I "dinged" him before in 2006 for a faulty sahitya rendering, he seems to be carrying on anyway.
SR
Tyagarajan sings "anAdilingam tyajEham" (i.e. "I reject Shiva"). Might have been understandable if he mispronounced it once, but he convincingly repeats it every time without any thought of what the meaning is. Automaton. Hardly an example for the shishyas - I "dinged" him before in 2006 for a faulty sahitya rendering, he seems to be carrying on anyway.
SR
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Thanks SR for the explanation. I am now even more curious why you are focussed on OST. I do not have any reason to defend OST, but mispronouncing sahitya is not that uncommon. Is OST any worse than others on the average? I really do not know since I can not tell if someone is singing it right or not, except may be some obvious goof's in Tamil compositions. ( As full disclosure about my acquaintance with OST's music: in this cases ignorance is bliss since I did enjoy OST's rendition of this song and in a past occasion, when I was listening to a song ( a different one ) rendered by 5 artists, I found OST's rendition had more depth than others. )
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Mispronunciation is not uncommon--even among those who speak the language. Old world words and expressions are difficult to understand. While rasikAs zero in on rAga lapses, they do not pay as much attention to the sAhitya. Is that a reason too for the lapses?
SR,
I don't know how good OST is with sanskrit (he knows his music very well!). Northerners have only a few lines to sing and manyof them don't pay particular attention to even the two lines of lyrics. Recently, I mentioned elsewhere that the great Bhimsen Joshi sang the word hari as taDi, gaDi etc! While I would have preferred a simple hari every time he repeated the line, I soon got lost in his majestic singing...
SR,
I don't know how good OST is with sanskrit (he knows his music very well!). Northerners have only a few lines to sing and manyof them don't pay particular attention to even the two lines of lyrics. Recently, I mentioned elsewhere that the great Bhimsen Joshi sang the word hari as taDi, gaDi etc! While I would have preferred a simple hari every time he repeated the line, I soon got lost in his majestic singing...
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I am not "focused" on Tyagarajan nor "targeting" him for any reason. I watched about 20 of the videos in the link provided by Ramakriya. Tyagarajan's video was the only one which contained sahitya errors. Furthermore, I then recalled my previous experience of him. 2 and 2 is still 4 last time I checked.vasanthakokilam wrote:Thanks SR for the explanation. I am now even more curious why you are focussed on OST.
SR
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 16 Apr 2008, 09:03, edited 1 time in total.
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HM musicians are well known to be lip-lazy, not because they do not understand the sahitya of the composition but because the sahitya is not much important to them and to the composition. When it is important, they rise to the occasion. Amir Khan's enunciation of lyrics in classical khayal singing is practically unintelligible, but the same guy enunciates the lyrics crystal-clear when singing in classical-inspired Hindi movie compositions (from the 1950s and 1960s). Some other musicians are probably under influence of alcohol (no names to be taken here, but I could not resist after seeing your post - samajhdaar ko ishaara hi kaafi hai).arasi wrote:I don't know how good OST is with sanskrit (he knows his music very well!). Northerners have only a few lines to sing and manyof them don't pay particular attention to even the two lines of lyrics....
There are some notable exceptions, mainly the Hindu musicians/musicologists - such as DV Paluskar, Kumar Gandharva, KG Ginde, Ramashray Jha - who enunciate the lyrics clearly irrespective of the type of composition they are singing. This is because the best of the Hindu musicians and musicologists in India understand very well the intimate relation of sahitya and raga in our music.
CM musicans are not expected to be Sanskrit experts but are certainly expected to know the exact
meaning of the composition being performed. The instance in question is not a one-time mispronunciation resulting from a "heat-of-the-moment" absorption in the music. Tyagarajan solemnly and clearly pronounces "tyajeham" clearly each and every time. It is clear he has no idea what the sahitya means. I wonder if he taught it to his shishyas in the same manner.
SR
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 16 Apr 2008, 09:04, edited 1 time in total.
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http://www.hindu.com/fr/2008/05/16/stor ... 780300.htm
Is there an audio version of this composition?She played another rare kriti by Dikshitar, ‘Kusumaakara Shobhita’ in the rare raga, Kusumakaram, a janyam of Kosalam
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kusumAkara is the 71st asampUrNa mELa.rshankar wrote:http://www.hindu.com/fr/2008/05/16/stor ... 780300.htm
Is there an audio version of this composition?She played another rare kriti by Dikshitar, ‘Kusumaakara Shobhita’ in the rare raga, Kusumakaram, a janyam of Kosalam
Thanks for the audio links!
-Ramakriya
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This is probably completely besides the point of this thread but I will say it anyway.Sangeet Rasik wrote:HM musicians are well known to be lip-lazy, not because they do not understand the sahitya of the composition but because the sahitya is not much important to them and to the composition. When it is important, they rise to the occasion. Amir Khan's enunciation of lyrics in classical khayal singing is practically unintelligible, but the same guy enunciates the lyrics crystal-clear when singing in classical-inspired Hindi movie compositions (from the 1950s and 1960s).
[...]
CM musicans are not expected to be Sanskrit experts but are certainly expected to know the exact
meaning of the composition being performed. The instance in question is not a one-time mispronunciation resulting from a "heat-of-the-moment" absorption in the music. Tyagarajan solemnly and clearly pronounces "tyajeham" clearly each and every time. It is clear he has no idea what the sahitya means. I wonder if he taught it to his shishyas in the same manner.
SR
In Western music vocal training, one of the first techniques in good sound production is to loosen the lips to what we may consider extreme levels. This causes some sounds (some vowels but many consonants) to be distorted in sound but that is deemed acceptable in many cases. In specific cases such as opera this is not considered acceptable and singers are expected to pay special attention to diction and clarity of enunciation. Singers (such as the famous tenors) switch technique when singing operatic music.
I have just assumed all along that singers such as MMI and SSI who slurred were doing it for better sound production.
I admit this theory does not explain the cases of singers clearly enunciating the wrong words rather than just slurring.
-Then Paanan
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The true meaning of 'lip-service' is that of MMI.MMI and SSI who slurred were doing it for better sound production.
'AlaiyillAdu Urukku iluppaippU sakkarai'
That is the measure of CM Rasikas who have got accustomed to trash in the name of music.
Last edited by vgvindan on 20 May 2008, 11:09, edited 1 time in total.
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i think it is "krishna mukunda murarae" by papanasam sivan??vgvindan wrote:Please refer to MD kRti 'kRshNAnanda mukunda murArE' - rAga gauLipantu.
There is an old film song beginning with the same words, but as far as I can recollect, the body of the film song is different.
Can someone throw more light on this?
Last edited by gangar on 26 May 2008, 10:51, edited 1 time in total.
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In the kRti 'tyAgarAja mahadhvajArOha' rAga Sri, it is mentioned as 'kRshNa gandha dharaNaM'.
Please refer to http://tamilartsacademy.com/journals/vo ... dance.html to know about 'kRshNa gandha' (black sandal-agaru paste) festival.
Please refer to http://tamilartsacademy.com/journals/vo ... dance.html to know about 'kRshNa gandha' (black sandal-agaru paste) festival.
Last edited by vgvindan on 09 Jun 2008, 22:08, edited 1 time in total.
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In the kRti 'nIlOtpalAmbikayA' - rAga kannaDa gauLa, MD states 'hallISa lAsya santushTayA'.
This same epithet occurs in lalitA triSati also.
This dance form 'hallISa (हल्लीश)' seems to be folk dance of Chamba - please refer to - http://books.google.com/books?id=Gz4ZAx ... #PPA155,M1
This dance form also seems to be part of 'rAslIla' - http://www.bvml.org/SRG/SriUjjvalaNilamani.html#CH10
Any further inputs?
This same epithet occurs in lalitA triSati also.
This dance form 'hallISa (हल्लीश)' seems to be folk dance of Chamba - please refer to - http://books.google.com/books?id=Gz4ZAx ... #PPA155,M1
This dance form also seems to be part of 'rAslIla' - http://www.bvml.org/SRG/SriUjjvalaNilamani.html#CH10
Any further inputs?
Last edited by vgvindan on 22 Jun 2008, 11:46, edited 1 time in total.
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A further search for 'hallISa lAsya' provided the following information.
Sanskrit Dictionary -
Tamil Dictionary -
(Translated from Tamil)
Sanskrit Dictionary -
http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/tamil/recherche1 hallIza m. one of the eighteen Uparu1palras or minor dramatic entertainments (described as a piece in one act , consisting chiefly of singing and dancing by one male and 7 , 8 , or Io female performers ; perhaps a kind of ballet) Sa1h. ; n. a circular dance (performed by women under the direction of a man) Ka1vya7d.
Tamil Dictionary -
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/romadi ... splay=utf8நின்றாடல் -6- அல்லியம், கொடி கொட்டி, குடை, குடம், பாண்டரங்கம், மல்,என்னை "அல்லியங்கொட்டி குடைகுடம் பாண்டரங்க ( niṉṟāṭal -6- அல்லியம், koṭi கொட்டி, kuṭai, குடம், பாண்டரங்கம், mal,என்னை "alliyangkoṭṭi குடைகுடம் பாண்டரங்க ) மல்லுடனின்றுடலாறு" என்றாராகலின்.
http://www.varalaaru.com/Default.asp?articleid=536Eleven kinds of dances - koDukoTTi, pANDrangaM, alliyattogudi, mallADal, tuDiyADal, kuDaiyADal, kuDakkUttu, pEyADal, marakkAl ADal, pAvai, kaDaiyaM
(Translated from Tamil)
Therefore, it appears that 'hallISa' is a derivative of 'alliyam'.tiruvArUr - name of Lord vanmIga nAdar - Consort - alliyankOdaiyammai
சுவாமிபெயர் - வன்மீகநாதர், தேவியார் - அல்லியங்கோதையம்மை
Last edited by vgvindan on 22 Jun 2008, 18:54, edited 1 time in total.
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In the krithi shrImatasivavamanke...anupallavi piecebalusatya wrote:Couple of other kritis in Begada including Vallabha.. also donot bear the raga mudra.
cit pratibimbe galajita samke... has the sucharita raga mudhra
Last edited by ts on 27 Jun 2008, 21:27, edited 1 time in total.
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check on this
http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/fr/200 ... 330300.htm
http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/fr/200 ... 330300.htm
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I will be really great full to you if you can again load these two songs or attach those two songs as mp3 files to my mail id gavats@gmail.com. I am having Bombay Jayasri's rendering of this song sung in a concert. She is also using pradhi madhyamam.davalangi wrote:CML sir - The controversy was probably about the use/non-use of pratimadhyamam in gauLipantu. Kalpagam mAmi plays krShNAnanda with suddhamadhyamam whereas SRJ introduces the pratimadhyamam as the anya swaram. He contests that gauLipantu "needs" the anya swaram for its survival Here are the renditions of dIkshitar's krShNAnanda by both of them:
http://rapidshare.de/files/3092339/gauLipantu.mp3.html
http://rapidshare.de/files/3092389/SRJ- ... u.mp3.html
Narasimhan
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Has this forum ever covered MD's kritis related to places-Khehtra kritis.?
If not, why not we start one now?Let me recollect a few of them.
*He is believed to have covered (courtesy Dr.Sundar's recent thematic concert in Hamsadhwani)atleast
58 places starting from Nepal down to kallidaikurichi-Tirunelveli Dist.
Sri Lakshmi varaham-Abohi-kallidaikurichi.
Sri Krishnam Bajamanasa-Todi-Guruvaur.
Shodasa ganapathis 16-Tiruvarur.
Soundarajam-Brindavana sarangaNagapatinam
santhanagopala krishnam-kamas-mannargudi.
Chidambaram,vaidiswaran koil,Mayiladudurai,
Panchalinga shektra kritis-Kanchepuram,Tiruvanaikaval,tiruvannamalai,Kalahasti,Chidambaram.
Kumbakonam.,Swamimalai,,Tiruchendur,Tirupathi,Tirutani,.Kazhugumalai,Alagarkoil?Madurai,Tiruvaiyaru(Dharmasamvardani),Tiruvottiyur,Tiruudaimarudur,Akshayalingavibho-keevalur near Tiruvarur.Spelt out clearly in Sangeethapriya.org-tributes-MD.Tiruvatiswarar-@Triplicane maintained by Arcot nawab family.
If not, why not we start one now?Let me recollect a few of them.
*He is believed to have covered (courtesy Dr.Sundar's recent thematic concert in Hamsadhwani)atleast
58 places starting from Nepal down to kallidaikurichi-Tirunelveli Dist.
Sri Lakshmi varaham-Abohi-kallidaikurichi.
Sri Krishnam Bajamanasa-Todi-Guruvaur.
Shodasa ganapathis 16-Tiruvarur.
Soundarajam-Brindavana sarangaNagapatinam
santhanagopala krishnam-kamas-mannargudi.
Chidambaram,vaidiswaran koil,Mayiladudurai,
Panchalinga shektra kritis-Kanchepuram,Tiruvanaikaval,tiruvannamalai,Kalahasti,Chidambaram.
Kumbakonam.,Swamimalai,,Tiruchendur,Tirupathi,Tirutani,.Kazhugumalai,Alagarkoil?Madurai,Tiruvaiyaru(Dharmasamvardani),Tiruvottiyur,Tiruudaimarudur,Akshayalingavibho-keevalur near Tiruvarur.Spelt out clearly in Sangeethapriya.org-tributes-MD.Tiruvatiswarar-@Triplicane maintained by Arcot nawab family.
Last edited by balusatya on 31 May 2009, 16:47, edited 1 time in total.
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An article in The Hindu to-day - makes interesting reading....
http://www.hindu.com/2009/07/02/stories ... 520200.htm
http://www.hindu.com/2009/07/02/stories ... 520200.htm
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Ravikiran interviewed DK Pattammal.
Full interview at http://www.tamilnation.org/hundredtamils/pattammal.htmRK: I would like you to clarify a few doubts about Dikshitar kritis. Subbarama Dikshitar has put together 250 keertanas in Sangeetha Sampradaya Pradarshini and we all accept that as authentic. But now, many songs that are not in that collection are also passed off as Dikshitar kritis. How authentic are these?
DKP: Yes. There are many spurious songs attributed to Muthuswami Dikshitar. Some such as the popular kriti "Akilandeswari", in Dwajawanthi, are not Dikshitar kritis. But they are all passed off as his. T.L.Venkatarama Iyer made a specific point when he said that "Akilandeswari" was not Dikshitar's kriti.
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srinivasrgvn wrote:Just reviving the thread.... Can somebody please tell why the above kritis are wrongly attributed to MD? Can someone possibly talk to a MD expert and confirm, please?
Not sure if this answers your question.. But I think these facts are relevant..
1. There is a corpus of 480 odd krti-s all in Sanskrit (+2 in manipravALa,1 in telugu) available, which have the signature 'guruguha'..
ALL of these do not demonstrate a consistency in the kRti structure, quality of language used and poetic devices like yati,prasa etc..
2. There have been a few composers, in the dIkSita lineage, who used the same signature..
SubbarAma DIkshitar, who composed in both telugu and SanskRt, and his son Mutthuswamy (Ambi) DIkshitar have used the same 'mudra'... the term 'guruguha' seems to have been in vogue, in srIvidya parlance, even before MD's times..
the word figures in songs attributed to UttukADu V.S kavi and also in songs of the later composer J.C.Wodeyar of Mysore..
3. While we can try and distinguish the 'genuine' songs from the 'spurious' or interpolated ones by the methods of critical editing - looking for linguistic patterns, stylistic motifs in the architecture of the songs etc, these methods are speculative at best..
4. The major sources for MD's songs were SubbarAma dikshitar, MD's 'grand nephew', who gave us the sangIta sampradAya pradarshini; and his son Ambi dIkshitar..
T.L.VenkataramaNayyar, the brothers AnantakRSnayyar and sundaramayyar and kallidaikurichi VedAnta bhAgavatar very involved in the active teaching,propogation and publication(not TLV) of krti-s attributed to dIkSitar..
Other branches of the diksitar disciplinary lineage were represented by the
sAttanUr pancanada ayyar -->T.Natarajasundaram piLLai-->T.N.swaminAtha piLLai--> students in central college of carnatic music..
AND
sAttanUr pancanada ayyar --> vInA dhanammAL--> her daughters, grand-daughters(Brinda-Mukta, balasaraswati) etc.--> B-M's students..
(PANJU AYYAR)
It is difficult to put one's finger on the exact point, in the course of this oral-aural transmissin scheme, where these 'interpolations' took place, as we have no reason to doubvt the good intent or integrity of all these musicians..
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Surely not? While you can argue that such analytical conclusions do not give us complete certainty, properly carried out analyses should give us much better than merely speculative results. Similar techniques are used in art, literature, and so on; and as the knowledge and techniques get better over time, the results get closer and closer to being definitive.keerthi wrote:While we can try and distinguish the 'genuine' songs from the 'spurious' or interpolated ones by the methods of critical editing - looking for linguistic patterns, stylistic motifs in the architecture of the songs etc, these methods are speculative at best..
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It was not just you. One of the quotes did not have a matching end quote and so all new posts were getting gobbled up as part of this massive quote The forum software usually does not allow such mismatched quotes but somehow it had gotten in. I have fixed it now. ( It is possible that ramakriya's post got truncated even prior to whatever I did to fix it )