TMKrishna at SGBS Bangalore 2-8-2009
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Always_Evolving
- Posts: 216
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Annamalai, I share your views. I am at a loss to understand where this widely held perception that varnams help in warming up the voice comes from. What a sacrificial lamb a great composition type has become! I think the audience will love a long and steady kArvai style S G P S type traversals with Violin in perfect alignment as I have heard MS doing in some recordings. That is a good warm up. Then sing an invocatory piece or a krithi or varnam.. fine. or sing varnam later on if the artist wants to explore the raga in all its exhaustive detail with out worrying too much about sahitya bhava for a change of aesthetics.
If at all one wants to quibble about a varnam, it is that it packs way too much raga and layam in one composition. The flip side of that of course is that it packs abundant raga and layam in one composition
If at all one wants to quibble about a varnam, it is that it packs way too much raga and layam in one composition. The flip side of that of course is that it packs abundant raga and layam in one composition
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arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
VKokilam,
The flip side
pAl pAyasa (m) is just that (Boy! Food language to the rescue). Lovingly prepared, the reduction of milk is the part of the dish's glory. Why expand it to feed the guests? Instead, serve it in little cups, making sure that there are other desserts too in the feast.
When there are thousands of gems which are there waiting to be elaborated, why pick a varNam? As I said before, when an angavastram unfurled will make do for something to wear around the waist, why not use it as a top cloth and wear a proper vEShTi instead?
All I am saying is, let varNams keep their pristine form and not become substitutes for krutis--even hearing them in the middle of the
concert is not a problem for me because the lines are suitable for the latter part of the concert. The question is, when it comes to their musical structure, they surely belong at the start of a concert as an appetizer, heralding what is in store for you the next few hours. As someone said, a varNam is a good indicator of what is to come.
kani irukkak Kai kavarndiDudal (a la vaLLuvar)--while there are plenty of ripe fruits on the tree, why go for an unripe one? I mean toy with something which has its own purpose?
VK,
Do you mean to say that the composers did not think about this? The very best of varNams come across to me as if they have a purpose-keeping to that essence of a form.
Yes, it is a different thing altogether on the dance stage. The context is mainly visual and though the lines and sangatis are repeated a hundred times, you are absorbed in the visual a great deal that unless you hear an apasvaram, you are not paying much attention to the music. Let me escalate it a bit (would like to see your facial expression on hearing this!)
When there are tender coconuts piled up in every street corner, it is like reaching out for that thirst quencher which comes canned!
The flip side
pAl pAyasa (m) is just that (Boy! Food language to the rescue). Lovingly prepared, the reduction of milk is the part of the dish's glory. Why expand it to feed the guests? Instead, serve it in little cups, making sure that there are other desserts too in the feast.
When there are thousands of gems which are there waiting to be elaborated, why pick a varNam? As I said before, when an angavastram unfurled will make do for something to wear around the waist, why not use it as a top cloth and wear a proper vEShTi instead?
All I am saying is, let varNams keep their pristine form and not become substitutes for krutis--even hearing them in the middle of the
concert is not a problem for me because the lines are suitable for the latter part of the concert. The question is, when it comes to their musical structure, they surely belong at the start of a concert as an appetizer, heralding what is in store for you the next few hours. As someone said, a varNam is a good indicator of what is to come.
kani irukkak Kai kavarndiDudal (a la vaLLuvar)--while there are plenty of ripe fruits on the tree, why go for an unripe one? I mean toy with something which has its own purpose?
VK,
Do you mean to say that the composers did not think about this? The very best of varNams come across to me as if they have a purpose-keeping to that essence of a form.
Yes, it is a different thing altogether on the dance stage. The context is mainly visual and though the lines and sangatis are repeated a hundred times, you are absorbed in the visual a great deal that unless you hear an apasvaram, you are not paying much attention to the music. Let me escalate it a bit (would like to see your facial expression on hearing this!)
When there are tender coconuts piled up in every street corner, it is like reaching out for that thirst quencher which comes canned!
Last edited by arasi on 11 Aug 2009, 01:52, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
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Arasi: Excellent metaphors with angavasthram, pAl pAyasam and canned coconut water... You have indeed provided thought provoking and relevant analysis. You have turned the table using the very strength of the other side. Nice! Excellent debater's technique I will have to work on a suitable come back worthy of your rebuttal.
Now,
>they surely belong at the start of a concert as an appetizer, heralding what is in store for you the next few hours. As someone said, a varNam is a good indicator of what is to come.
My issue is, fundamentally, I do not buy either of those premises. That it is (only) an appetizer and that it is an indicator of the quality of what is to come. It can be but not necessarily so.
On the other hand, if the artists follow the once common pattern that the raga of the varnam is taken up for RTP, that will work for me. Because Varnams and RTPs have a lot in common and so one can interpret the ensuing RTP as an expansion of the varnam, with the varnam providing a great abstract. I personally feel that is what ARI intended as the aesthetic basis. Now artists have abandoned the RTP aspect but stuck to only the Varnam part. That is why it looks incomplete.
BTW, I fully agree varnams and krithis provide aesthetics in different dimensions, so this is not against krithis or composers. While an all varnam concert is a thematic concert, an all krithi concert is a regular concert, to make the point obvious. In CM krithis are of course the royalty.
Don't wear the angavasthram for 3 minutes just because it is mandated, wear it for 10-15 minutes, if you look good in it.
Take your time and savor the pAl pAyasam when the sAmbAr is too hot even if others around you rush you to get to rasam.
While the unpredictability of the water from the tender coconut has its charm, it is occasionally good to enjoy a guaranteed thing from a container that has excerpts from various different good tasting tender coconuts.
Rebuttals in metaphorical space
I will have to work on a suitable come back worthy of your rebuttal.Now,
>they surely belong at the start of a concert as an appetizer, heralding what is in store for you the next few hours. As someone said, a varNam is a good indicator of what is to come.
My issue is, fundamentally, I do not buy either of those premises. That it is (only) an appetizer and that it is an indicator of the quality of what is to come. It can be but not necessarily so.
On the other hand, if the artists follow the once common pattern that the raga of the varnam is taken up for RTP, that will work for me. Because Varnams and RTPs have a lot in common and so one can interpret the ensuing RTP as an expansion of the varnam, with the varnam providing a great abstract. I personally feel that is what ARI intended as the aesthetic basis. Now artists have abandoned the RTP aspect but stuck to only the Varnam part. That is why it looks incomplete.
BTW, I fully agree varnams and krithis provide aesthetics in different dimensions, so this is not against krithis or composers. While an all varnam concert is a thematic concert, an all krithi concert is a regular concert, to make the point obvious. In CM krithis are of course the royalty.
Don't wear the angavasthram for 3 minutes just because it is mandated, wear it for 10-15 minutes, if you look good in it.
Take your time and savor the pAl pAyasam when the sAmbAr is too hot even if others around you rush you to get to rasam.
While the unpredictability of the water from the tender coconut has its charm, it is occasionally good to enjoy a guaranteed thing from a container that has excerpts from various different good tasting tender coconuts.
Rebuttals in metaphorical space
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arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
VKokilam,
Give the dog a bone-- bring food metaphors in, it seems to get people's attention, better than any other kind!
Yes, I do agree with your point that a varNam as a precursor to the RTP in the same rAgam is even better.
I am open to other points of view too. Can a tillAna take the place of a quick-paced song before a heavy number? Or, is our conditioning going to affect our view? I am not for a sringAram-soaked number so early in the concert either. A padam or jAvaLi very early in the concert does not work for me.
After all the heavies, tukkaDAs following them makes the rsikAs relax and helps them unwind. They also signal that the concert is coming to an end. In work out terms, varNam is good stretching and is a warm up (not the excercise itself!) and tukkaDas are like a pleasant and phased-down finish to your rigorous excercise of listening.
Wonder why Krishna's threads grow into such lengths like draupadi"s vastram
Give the dog a bone-- bring food metaphors in, it seems to get people's attention, better than any other kind!
Yes, I do agree with your point that a varNam as a precursor to the RTP in the same rAgam is even better.
I am open to other points of view too. Can a tillAna take the place of a quick-paced song before a heavy number? Or, is our conditioning going to affect our view? I am not for a sringAram-soaked number so early in the concert either. A padam or jAvaLi very early in the concert does not work for me.
After all the heavies, tukkaDAs following them makes the rsikAs relax and helps them unwind. They also signal that the concert is coming to an end. In work out terms, varNam is good stretching and is a warm up (not the excercise itself!) and tukkaDas are like a pleasant and phased-down finish to your rigorous excercise of listening.
Wonder why Krishna's threads grow into such lengths like draupadi"s vastram
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keerthi
- Posts: 1309
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Wasn't it a Krishna who provided the threads for draupadi's lengthy vastramarasi wrote: Wonder why Krishna's threads grow into such lengths like draupadi"s vastram
If we look at the old varNa-s, and older styles of singing varna-s, they were real elaborate pieces, and often incorporated sangati-s as well.. i revert to my old lament of the separation of the dance and music worlds.. this has led to the difference in handling the varNa, by the two sets of artistes..
however consider the below ideas, do they make the varNa a candidate for an aperitif, an appetiser, a quickie..?
- Looking at the Swati tirunAl varna-s, one can see that singing even an Adi tAla varNa would take a good 8-15 minutes..
- Kuppayyar has composed varna-s with 5 and even 7 muktAyi swara-s.. some with looong phrases that demand good breath control..
- They say that tyagarAja composed the charanas-with-different-tunes-songs like the 'pancaratnam' set and others like ninu vinA sukhamu (todi), srIraghuvarAprameya(kAmbodhi), brOcEvArevarE (srIranjani) following the pattern of the chouka varNa-s he heard..
- the long kArvais of some ata-tAla varna-s can easily betray a faltering sruti, or a gasp for breath..
there is a definite difference in the makeup and structure of the pre-trinity and contemporaneous-to-trinity varNa-s vis-a-vis the paTnam-pUchi-KotthavAsal varna-s which are more prevalent now, and which fit the condensed milk/pAl pAyasam/uttarIyam bill eminently...
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annamalai
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Not sure if the Angavastram / Veshti analogy is suitable.
It is not as if a Varnam is a Angavastram and a Krithi is a full veshti. As we all know, there are many "not so great" random krithis that are in concert circulation. But that is a different topic for another day/thread. There are better varnams than some krithis.
The contention is that, as a composition, Viriboni is a much richer Bhairavi than many krithis. The point is to give the proper stature to such a composition even if it deviates from the norm.
When I hear the Kanakangi thodi varnam as the first item in a concert, it is so rich and full of ragam as if for a meal as the first item I had full plate of Sarkara Pongal . The next kruthis do not seem make an impact. BTW, I am not in favour of singing Enduku Peddala as the first piece in a concert if we want to do full justice to that krithi.
On the choice of elaboration, some musicians liked to elaborate so-called minor ragas - Janaranjani, Rasali, SuddhaSeemanthini, Devamanohari, ... instead of the big 6 ragas.
It is not as if a Varnam is a Angavastram and a Krithi is a full veshti. As we all know, there are many "not so great" random krithis that are in concert circulation. But that is a different topic for another day/thread. There are better varnams than some krithis.
The contention is that, as a composition, Viriboni is a much richer Bhairavi than many krithis. The point is to give the proper stature to such a composition even if it deviates from the norm.
When I hear the Kanakangi thodi varnam as the first item in a concert, it is so rich and full of ragam as if for a meal as the first item I had full plate of Sarkara Pongal . The next kruthis do not seem make an impact. BTW, I am not in favour of singing Enduku Peddala as the first piece in a concert if we want to do full justice to that krithi.
On the choice of elaboration, some musicians liked to elaborate so-called minor ragas - Janaranjani, Rasali, SuddhaSeemanthini, Devamanohari, ... instead of the big 6 ragas.
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Svaapana
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vasanthakokilam said "On the other hand, if the artists follow the once common pattern that the raga of the varnam is taken up for RTP, that will work for me". Indeed! I remember Manakkal Rangarajan start his concert with ragam, tanam followed by a tana varnam.
Talking of innovation, I would love to listen to an elaborate alapana of a yadhukula kambodhi followed by the beautiful Swathi thirunal composition bhujaga sAyino, instead of pushing it to the last item.
Talking of innovation, I would love to listen to an elaborate alapana of a yadhukula kambodhi followed by the beautiful Swathi thirunal composition bhujaga sAyino, instead of pushing it to the last item.
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Ramasubramanian M.K
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Fools rush in where angels fear to tread --here I am with my 10 cents worth on the Varnam or not discussion.
SSI,MMI rarely started their concerts with Varnam,Ariyakudi,Alathur seldom started without one,GNB worked both ways--over the years I have discussed these with several vidwans--each of them quite convincing on their own turfs!!(readers can now see what a neanderthal age I come from!! if I have to cite these Vidwans!!). DKP,MLV(MSS was a separate category on her own in this area) also were varnam-prone.
Palghat mani Iyer(perhaps because of his allegiance to Ariyakudi,favored the Varnam but was very adamant about the mridangam vidwan playing it low key--his words were"Aramba Soorathanam Koodadu!!--especially the mridangist attempting to fill in the gap between the Pallavi,Anupallavi Charanam with long-drawn out Korvais(present day mridangists are all enamoured of this style of play.PMI's view--he would explain--First,the artist (vocalist) has to get a grip on the audience,acoustics the compatibilty of the accompaniments--a kind of warm-up exercise--as many of the defenders have pointed out earlier.Then check how the mridangam is aligned before embarking upon Korvais/Sollus-PMI would even adopt brief pauses to "size" up the effects.
Anyway I have reconciled myself to a point of view which listeners can adopt;
In my opinion,there are three dimensions to listening or ask yourself three questions.
WHAT is the artist attempting? How well did he/she EXECUTE it? and WHAT was the effect(on the listener). needless to say the last one is subjective whereas the first two are not.
For example when I hear an artist sing the Thodi varnam(Eranapai) where the eduppus are in Samam, but the artist shows his/her laya control by off-samam exercises,in my opinion,the idea is elegant,the execution flawless but in terms of its effect a trifle distracting. Later on in the RTP or swaras for krithis, there would be ample opportunities for me to find out how much laya control,and sense of proportion the artist displays,but in the beginning I tend to "squirm" because the Mridangist not to be left behind "jumps" in and "dramatises" the off-beat--the result is that the spirit of the composer is lost. BUT THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION AND ADMITTEDLY SUBJECTIVE.
On the subject of Kalyani(which also feautred in the above thread),however wide a scope the Raga has, the opening has to be unmistakable without "hedging" just to titillate the audience with suspense.(I am not suggesting that in the TMK concert referrred above,he started the Kalyani that way--this is just a digression of how Kalyani alapana should begin ) MS Mami used to say begin the Kalyani with Pa Ma Ga but do not start with Ga Ga Ga as s ome artistes do--although the Ghandaram is the same as Sankarabharanam,the Ga needs to be given Gamakam(there is a mathematical explanation for this-- as to WHY in Sankarabharanam we do not stress the Gamakam whereas for Kalyani we can and we do).
If the base frequency of Sa is 100, then the the anthara Gandharam should be 125-i.e. 1 is to1. 25 ratio --the suddha Madhyamam should be 133.33 i.e 1 is to 1.33 and the Panchamam should be 150(1 is to 1,50).As the interval between Gandharam and Suddha madhyaam is only one-twelfth of the base frequency (diff. between one-third and one-fourth) the Gandharam in Sankarabharanam cannot be "oscillated"(poor choice of word but I am sure readers get my "drift"!! whereas Kalyani's beauty is in the elongation of the Ghandaram-not to elongate the gandharam and sing it flat as in Sankarabharanam is neither aesthetically pleasing nor conventionally correct!! Look at all the Trinity's compositions the Gamakam would be prominent in the ghandaram.
Notwithstanding the above I am all for hearty exchange of views on a vast subject.
SSI,MMI rarely started their concerts with Varnam,Ariyakudi,Alathur seldom started without one,GNB worked both ways--over the years I have discussed these with several vidwans--each of them quite convincing on their own turfs!!(readers can now see what a neanderthal age I come from!! if I have to cite these Vidwans!!). DKP,MLV(MSS was a separate category on her own in this area) also were varnam-prone.
Palghat mani Iyer(perhaps because of his allegiance to Ariyakudi,favored the Varnam but was very adamant about the mridangam vidwan playing it low key--his words were"Aramba Soorathanam Koodadu!!--especially the mridangist attempting to fill in the gap between the Pallavi,Anupallavi Charanam with long-drawn out Korvais(present day mridangists are all enamoured of this style of play.PMI's view--he would explain--First,the artist (vocalist) has to get a grip on the audience,acoustics the compatibilty of the accompaniments--a kind of warm-up exercise--as many of the defenders have pointed out earlier.Then check how the mridangam is aligned before embarking upon Korvais/Sollus-PMI would even adopt brief pauses to "size" up the effects.
Anyway I have reconciled myself to a point of view which listeners can adopt;
In my opinion,there are three dimensions to listening or ask yourself three questions.
WHAT is the artist attempting? How well did he/she EXECUTE it? and WHAT was the effect(on the listener). needless to say the last one is subjective whereas the first two are not.
For example when I hear an artist sing the Thodi varnam(Eranapai) where the eduppus are in Samam, but the artist shows his/her laya control by off-samam exercises,in my opinion,the idea is elegant,the execution flawless but in terms of its effect a trifle distracting. Later on in the RTP or swaras for krithis, there would be ample opportunities for me to find out how much laya control,and sense of proportion the artist displays,but in the beginning I tend to "squirm" because the Mridangist not to be left behind "jumps" in and "dramatises" the off-beat--the result is that the spirit of the composer is lost. BUT THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION AND ADMITTEDLY SUBJECTIVE.
On the subject of Kalyani(which also feautred in the above thread),however wide a scope the Raga has, the opening has to be unmistakable without "hedging" just to titillate the audience with suspense.(I am not suggesting that in the TMK concert referrred above,he started the Kalyani that way--this is just a digression of how Kalyani alapana should begin ) MS Mami used to say begin the Kalyani with Pa Ma Ga but do not start with Ga Ga Ga as s ome artistes do--although the Ghandaram is the same as Sankarabharanam,the Ga needs to be given Gamakam(there is a mathematical explanation for this-- as to WHY in Sankarabharanam we do not stress the Gamakam whereas for Kalyani we can and we do).
If the base frequency of Sa is 100, then the the anthara Gandharam should be 125-i.e. 1 is to1. 25 ratio --the suddha Madhyamam should be 133.33 i.e 1 is to 1.33 and the Panchamam should be 150(1 is to 1,50).As the interval between Gandharam and Suddha madhyaam is only one-twelfth of the base frequency (diff. between one-third and one-fourth) the Gandharam in Sankarabharanam cannot be "oscillated"(poor choice of word but I am sure readers get my "drift"!! whereas Kalyani's beauty is in the elongation of the Ghandaram-not to elongate the gandharam and sing it flat as in Sankarabharanam is neither aesthetically pleasing nor conventionally correct!! Look at all the Trinity's compositions the Gamakam would be prominent in the ghandaram.
Notwithstanding the above I am all for hearty exchange of views on a vast subject.
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annamalai
- Posts: 355
- Joined: 23 Nov 2006, 07:01
You have hit the nail on the head. This is like the new batsman trying to get a feel for the pitch, bounce, speed and movement off the wicket and trying to play in the "V" before attempting any of the big shots.Ramasubramanian M.K wrote:
--First,the artist (vocalist) has to get a grip on the audience,acoustics the compatibilty of the accompaniments--a kind of warm-up exercise--
With Ariyakudi, MD Ramanathan, ... their varnam rendition is so impeccable; it is as if they were practicing for 30 minutes prior to the concert with the same accompaniments.
Last edited by annamalai on 12 Aug 2009, 11:21, edited 1 time in total.
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bala747
- Posts: 314
- Joined: 20 Mar 2006, 12:56
Interesting points of view:
b) Some of the lesser privilaged types do have some beautiful pieces ( padams, javali, varnam), in their lyrical and musical value. Why do we need to treat them as the post tani items.
I agree wholeheartedly, especially with padams. Padam singing appears to be a lost art, with more and more artistes completely eschewing them in favour of Sai bhajans and other musically questionable pieces. Why sing Bhajans in a Carnatic concert and ignore bhava rich padams?
e) Viriboni is a brilliant piece of writing and is rich as any other major krithis , so is the Kalyani varnam. So, I thought, I will take this up and present at the main slot of the concert.
Agree to an extent as far as raga bhava is concerned, but a Varnam has too few words to actually deliver competent neravals in them without sounding repetitive. Since I didn't attend this concert I wouldn't be able to comment on if TMK fell into this trap, but I would be a bit wary of artistes trying a neraval on even an Adi Talam varnam, much less the much longer Ata talam ones.
g) It is better to sing viriboni as main, that singing some of the compositions sung as main these days ( he did not mention any names in particular).
Agree wholeheartedly. If people can take up pieces like Teliyaledu Rama in Dhenuka or the perennial favourite of lazy instrumentalists, Nagumomu (the band-music version) as main items then certainly the Bhairavi varnam can be taken as main, but to sing a neraval in it? As opposed to swaras?
h) This is not revelusionising the concert paddhati and he is not trying to change anything here. People can have their own opinion.
What's wrong with revolutionising the concert paddhati? Didn't ARI do it to showcase his strengths and cover his weaknesses? It worked and he became one of the pioneers of modern carnatic music!
i) Students who is listening to him, need not try to emulate this and blame it on him.
Again why not? I think he's just being humble here and probably does not want some self proclaimed 'purist' to berate him for having the guts to try something different.
b) Some of the lesser privilaged types do have some beautiful pieces ( padams, javali, varnam), in their lyrical and musical value. Why do we need to treat them as the post tani items.
I agree wholeheartedly, especially with padams. Padam singing appears to be a lost art, with more and more artistes completely eschewing them in favour of Sai bhajans and other musically questionable pieces. Why sing Bhajans in a Carnatic concert and ignore bhava rich padams?
e) Viriboni is a brilliant piece of writing and is rich as any other major krithis , so is the Kalyani varnam. So, I thought, I will take this up and present at the main slot of the concert.
Agree to an extent as far as raga bhava is concerned, but a Varnam has too few words to actually deliver competent neravals in them without sounding repetitive. Since I didn't attend this concert I wouldn't be able to comment on if TMK fell into this trap, but I would be a bit wary of artistes trying a neraval on even an Adi Talam varnam, much less the much longer Ata talam ones.
g) It is better to sing viriboni as main, that singing some of the compositions sung as main these days ( he did not mention any names in particular).
Agree wholeheartedly. If people can take up pieces like Teliyaledu Rama in Dhenuka or the perennial favourite of lazy instrumentalists, Nagumomu (the band-music version) as main items then certainly the Bhairavi varnam can be taken as main, but to sing a neraval in it? As opposed to swaras?
h) This is not revelusionising the concert paddhati and he is not trying to change anything here. People can have their own opinion.
What's wrong with revolutionising the concert paddhati? Didn't ARI do it to showcase his strengths and cover his weaknesses? It worked and he became one of the pioneers of modern carnatic music!
i) Students who is listening to him, need not try to emulate this and blame it on him.
Again why not? I think he's just being humble here and probably does not want some self proclaimed 'purist' to berate him for having the guts to try something different.
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bala747
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Svaapana, I heard Kalyanakrishna Bhagavathar render a long, exquisite viruttam in Yadukula Kambhoji before singing the magnificent Bhujagasayino (yes this was a vocal concert by the vainika), which is one of my favourite pieces composed by the Maharaja. While it was a last piece it was still sung with an unhurried pace, singing the whole composition.
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gravikiran
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I am sorry but I wouldn't agree one bit actuallybala747 wrote:Interesting points of view:
Agree to an extent as far as raga bhava is concerned, but a Varnam has too few words to actually deliver competent neravals in them without sounding repetitive.
As a musician, I have always felt that the less the sahitya the more one has freedom. I am pretty sure other musicians would also vouch for this.
In fact, the more the sahitya, the less the scope for expansive neravals as one would be more focussed on getting the various words right and (more or less) in their respective positions.
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arasi
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s_hari
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I think ravikiran is saying in the context on neraval line with less number of words having more scope of neraval. Not about composition itself.arasi wrote:Ravikiran,
I have heard you sing many-lined compositions with ease and relish. I am a bit surprised that you say this. Could one then say that one can give a full concert with three pallavi lines for three hours and be done with it? Where does it leave all the composers--I mean, the great ones?
-hari
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gravikiran
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gravikiran
- Posts: 114
- Joined: 14 Sep 2006, 08:46
hari, what i said is a general opinion/rule-of-thumb.
it especially applies for a main piece.
eg: a 'neela neerada shareera' is any day more preferred compared to a 'drona karna duryodhanaadi hara...'.
having said this, the madhyamakala neravals (eg: 'sundaresha suguna brinda...') have their own place nevertheless.
it especially applies for a main piece.
eg: a 'neela neerada shareera' is any day more preferred compared to a 'drona karna duryodhanaadi hara...'.
having said this, the madhyamakala neravals (eg: 'sundaresha suguna brinda...') have their own place nevertheless.
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bala747
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- Joined: 20 Mar 2006, 12:56
Ravikiran sir,
With all due respect, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say.
I meant to point out that varnam lines do not have many words in general (except when they have Muktayi swara and chittaswara sahityas), and attempting to sing a 8-10 syllable neraval over the entire Ata taalam 2 kalai is rather risky. I have heard MDR sing "Chandrakaladhara Sambhasadasiva" (12 syllables) as a Pallavi in Sankarabharanam over an Adi talam 4 kalai beat but even that was a tad stretched in my opinion. To know what I mean try singing a neraval in the anupallavi of Naajeevadhara (Bilahari). It is just one word: Rajivalochana. Can it be done? Certainly. Would it risk sounding boring? Of course. It's just one word!
From what I have heard, most good neravals (there are exceptions I know) on an Adi Talam have about 8-13 syllables. Anything less than that and it sounds drawn out, too many words and it sounds bhajanaigoshti'ish (one 'gnanasthan' in Singapore sang a neraval in "Mahakavyanaatakaadhipriyam" in Mahaganapathim (Nattai). Needless to say, members in the audience started bouncing on their seats to the bhajan-like singing). 8-10 seems to be ideal for 1 kalai, e.g. Illalo sari varala lo in Tsalakallaladu or Pranavaswarupa Vakrathundam in Vathapi, and 9-13 for 2 kalai, e.g. Madhurapuri Nilaye in Minakshi Me mudham dehi or Nila Niraja in Balagopala.
Therefore if an ata taalam cycle contains 14x2 (assuming 2 kalai) aksharas (?), a neraval would have to have at least 14-15 syllables. Unless the musician is REALLY good and can pull it off, it becomes more of a kondattam for the musician while becoming a thindaattam for the audience.
But for the sake of argument I want to say that less is not always better. Example? MDR's rendition of neraval in Madhumata modita hrdaye sadaye (23 syllables) in Meenakshi me mudam dehi, as opposed to the usual Madhurapurnilaye manivalaye (13 syllables). Anyone here dares to claim that MDR's neraval was less "imaginative" than anyone else's?
I was pointing out that in an ata taalam cycle, 28 beats, the musician would have to be REALLY great to pull off a neraval of such a short line (just 10 syllables) without sounding repetitive. I didn't hear this particular concert of course, but from what I have heard of TMK, I don't know if he could. That's all I was trying to say. I am willing to be proven wrong of course.
I hope no one takes anything I said personally. I am just pointing out things for the sake of debate. I tend to have very set views on what is good and what is not, which makes me overcritical at times
With all due respect, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say.
I meant to point out that varnam lines do not have many words in general (except when they have Muktayi swara and chittaswara sahityas), and attempting to sing a 8-10 syllable neraval over the entire Ata taalam 2 kalai is rather risky. I have heard MDR sing "Chandrakaladhara Sambhasadasiva" (12 syllables) as a Pallavi in Sankarabharanam over an Adi talam 4 kalai beat but even that was a tad stretched in my opinion. To know what I mean try singing a neraval in the anupallavi of Naajeevadhara (Bilahari). It is just one word: Rajivalochana. Can it be done? Certainly. Would it risk sounding boring? Of course. It's just one word!
From what I have heard, most good neravals (there are exceptions I know) on an Adi Talam have about 8-13 syllables. Anything less than that and it sounds drawn out, too many words and it sounds bhajanaigoshti'ish (one 'gnanasthan' in Singapore sang a neraval in "Mahakavyanaatakaadhipriyam" in Mahaganapathim (Nattai). Needless to say, members in the audience started bouncing on their seats to the bhajan-like singing). 8-10 seems to be ideal for 1 kalai, e.g. Illalo sari varala lo in Tsalakallaladu or Pranavaswarupa Vakrathundam in Vathapi, and 9-13 for 2 kalai, e.g. Madhurapuri Nilaye in Minakshi Me mudham dehi or Nila Niraja in Balagopala.
Therefore if an ata taalam cycle contains 14x2 (assuming 2 kalai) aksharas (?), a neraval would have to have at least 14-15 syllables. Unless the musician is REALLY good and can pull it off, it becomes more of a kondattam for the musician while becoming a thindaattam for the audience.
But for the sake of argument I want to say that less is not always better. Example? MDR's rendition of neraval in Madhumata modita hrdaye sadaye (23 syllables) in Meenakshi me mudam dehi, as opposed to the usual Madhurapurnilaye manivalaye (13 syllables). Anyone here dares to claim that MDR's neraval was less "imaginative" than anyone else's?
I was pointing out that in an ata taalam cycle, 28 beats, the musician would have to be REALLY great to pull off a neraval of such a short line (just 10 syllables) without sounding repetitive. I didn't hear this particular concert of course, but from what I have heard of TMK, I don't know if he could. That's all I was trying to say. I am willing to be proven wrong of course.
I hope no one takes anything I said personally. I am just pointing out things for the sake of debate. I tend to have very set views on what is good and what is not, which makes me overcritical at times
Last edited by bala747 on 15 Aug 2009, 13:13, edited 1 time in total.
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shripathi_g
- Posts: 359
- Joined: 30 Mar 2005, 08:25
MDR's neraval at Drona Karna Duryodhanadhi hara - http://www.sendspace.com/file/o69fa6. I might be biased here but I couldn't find anything insipid about the neraval.
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bala747
- Posts: 314
- Joined: 20 Mar 2006, 12:56
I realise it's not fair to use artistes like MDR or KVN as examples because their bhava laden renditions bring another dimension to music not normally found in other artistes. But an average or even good singer singing a neraval at Drona karna duriyodhanaadi hara would find himself lost for ideas after three lines of neraval.
This will be my last post in this thread so; let's listen to some divine music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjI0lL3XYC8 (Not the commonly heard HMV cassette Jagaddodharana but spellbinding in its own style)
This will be my last post in this thread so; let's listen to some divine music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjI0lL3XYC8 (Not the commonly heard HMV cassette Jagaddodharana but spellbinding in its own style)
Last edited by bala747 on 15 Aug 2009, 15:41, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
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arasi
- Posts: 16873
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Points taken. Bala is right. drONa karNa in the hands of MDR and KVN is something else.
My lack of interest in it as a neraval line only stems from the fact that I like lines which are expressive in their content, conjure up a rich image, or at least have a flow, and as Punarvasu points out, does not contain words which are rough terrain (karaDu muraDu).
My lack of interest in it as a neraval line only stems from the fact that I like lines which are expressive in their content, conjure up a rich image, or at least have a flow, and as Punarvasu points out, does not contain words which are rough terrain (karaDu muraDu).
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bilahari
- Posts: 2631
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 09:02
This one, I believe: http://sangeethamshare.org/hariharan/MD ... ERT_NO_03/
Thanks for the songlist, Coolji.
Thanks for the songlist, Coolji.
Last edited by bilahari on 17 Aug 2009, 15:33, edited 1 time in total.