why youth shun carnatic music?

[rajeshnat]

cml
very very great post especially the addictive part . Some time before , you were also conducting along with DRS a poll and many of us got very high scores. Only the addiction is detected . You have not helped in the correction part at all? Perhaps you can open a seperate post on correcting the addiction.

Certainly the addiction of CM concerts and the rasikas.org browsing and writing is itself too high. Infact I would personally feel browsing rasikas.org as a more addictive than going to concerts or hearing the recordings. Bit of oxymoron that I am complaining about rasikas.org in rasikas.org itself.

[karthikbala]

...CM turns the personality of the individual towards saatvika. No surprise here since the Trinity chose that chemistry purposely to turn the mind on to spiritual thoughts. But survival in a competitive world for the youth requires raajasic personality. CM does even affect the sex-drive (effeminates) acting as a substitute and I should not discuss more of that subject here! There is no doubt that music controls the moods. CM is designed for placid spiritual pursuits as adrenalin running high is totally incompatible with CM...

Your views are certainly original and interesting. However, as regards the "saatvik" or emasculation aspect, I do not think history or ground realities will support this view at least with respect to most practitioners over the ages. "Raajasik" exploits of some vidwans are also part of CM legend and lore and are neither positive nor negative reflections on CM. And, as you say, specifics are better not discussed here...

IMHO, practitioners probably have a far more balanced immersion in CM, compared to fanatical listeners who listen to music for inordinate lengths of time. Just as music therapy claims beneficial effects of (appropriate) music, excessive listening may also cause problems similar to that of addictive online social networking etc. On the other hand, Late Sri Kunnakudi Vaidhyanathan claimed on Jaya TV, that a good dosage of Hindolam would be beneficial for fertility

Many self-styled "purists" would be surprised at how ecumenical tastes of many great musicians are. This is only natural, as most persons with a good ear for music cannot help enjoying quality music regardless of which genre it comes from. I was myself surprised once, to see a CD of Maria Callas lying around in a great vidwan's house, and they don't come much more tradional-minded than he!

I am myself equally at home with CM as well as Opera, in which there is an emphasis on sensuality, indulgence, not to mention huge variety of themes and content. Apart from the usual opera themes of love, lust, revenge, betrayal, conflict, piety etc, Wagnerian opera even includes in the storyline, rape, incest, fratricide, parricide etc. Despite this, hardly anybody would label opera as unwholesome or dangerous fare, and it is very much part of the classical genre!

Ultimately, response to music is an intensely personal thing and it is pointless to generalise. As far as youth are concerned, as someone pointed out, we can only strive to increase the visibility, ease of access, and quality of CM, the rest is in nobody's hands.

[arasi]

Mon ami,
I needn't spell it out that I repect your expertise in your area of study and the experience you have gained from many years of work. That is not all. I admire your knowledge in many other branches of learning.
I agree that an excess of anything: studying, working, sleeping or keeping awake, is not good for any of us. They could lead to addictive behavior perhaps. I think an excessive dose of music is not any different from the above. Cut down! is a good suggestion. Stay away?
What struck me was your saying CM is not for the youth. Why not? It was fine when CM was part of our lives when we were young. While we all can be peculiar in our own ways, I don't think CM has damaged us!
I have a feeling that this is a stance. You are posturing for the sake of making a point?

Rajesh,
Yes, I do remember the discussion and it is nice of you to speak about it. Shows that you have an open mind. While CML's points about addiction are valid, it is also true that CM can also relax you, make you go about your life with renewed energy. So long as it is not addictive, your life can be calmer, richer.

Kartikbala,
I like the way you speak of the opera. I feel the same way about it, and of Shakespeare's plays and many other forms of creative work. I see cathartic qualities in them. They do not drag you down but elevate you. Bhakti? Betterment? I don't know...

[rajesh_rs]

CMLover,

Your posts were interesting but took a Hindu-specific view of things - it is quite possible that people like KJY who got interested in Carnatic music at an early age and learnt from stalwarts like Chembai were curious about Carnatic music and interested in it for its virtues. Youngsters like my friends (and me) are benefiting from the relaxation that CM brings as well as the opportunity that it gives us youngsters to express ourselves.

There are 60 year old rock and metal artists like Ozzy Ozbourne and Joe Satriani who are addicted to their art forms - and they are as energetic or enthusiastic about their chosen art forms as younger talents like John Mayer. Even in Carnatic music, we have the likes of Balamuralikrishna, and the scores of young performers side by side. So CM is not only for the old music aficionados amongst us. In both Indian and western art forms, and amongst youngsters and old people alike, there are people who are addicted or comfortably addicted to one form of music - because that form suits their taste and has developed their taste. This shouldn't be taken as an indication of excesses - as much as the food we eat may consist of one thing more than another, or the things we say are in one language more than another.

[munirao2001]

Cmlover
When the tradition in IM hails Pandita-Pamara ranjakatvam as the ideal for performer, pamara ranjakatvam took cognizance of listening pleasure derived out of non-bhakthi emotions. The Primary Goals are TWO - One-Spiritual-attainment of SAT-CHIT-ANANDA and two-ENTERTAINMENT.
History of evolution of IM and compositions of Vaggeyakaras having non-bhakthi elements for pamarajana ranjakatvam, confirms pursuing the path for entertainment also. With majority of the Great Vaggeyakaras taking to Classical IM, steeped in Bhakthi, as best and easy marga for spiritual progress advocated by the Saints, the Classical IM is perceived as having only one goal. Religious persons, with ingenuity, have converted the messages/purpose of the vaggeyakaras compositons on other emotions, sringara-carnal love, in particular, as also nayaki-nayaka bhava in bhakthi marga. The entertainment power of Classical IM was gradually lost or did not found favor by the rasikas. The sugama/light, natya sangeeth, bhava sangitham and film music etc., made full use of its absence/neglect in Classical IM and has become popular and most favored. owing to the lack of clarity and understanding, Clasical IM is now identified with 'Oldies' in thought, perception and expectation and support, irrespective of the physical age.
HM did take a break earlier to cater to the requirement of entertainment, in comparison with CM. With the advent of cutcheri music, entertainment goals also started gaining importance. For the fear/anxiety of this form's acceptance and success, entertainment aspect was kept subtle and minimum, initially. Some of the Great Maestros/Vaggeayakaras dared to differ. They increased the entertainment quotient in their cutcheris, without breaking away from Bhakthi soaked compositions of immense musical values handling/usage and they also received popular acclaim. This strategy worked to gain popularity and expand their rasika base only. The mix has not succeeded in taking CM to the masses. It can not succeed, with out offering seperate and exclusive CM cutheris for Bhakthi and entertainment experiences. For the rasikas want to have both the experiences, bridge concerts have to be made, giving equal emphasis for both in the cutcheris.

The three gunas-Tamas, Rajas and Sathvik, categorized with Hindu Religion principles of Life and Beyond- have to be transcended to attain mukthi and can not be used for secular orientations.

LoverCM, how did you miss to notice that all the rasikas of CM are very much steeped in ashrama life only with flirtations or pretensions of vanaprasthashrama! Also many youth have taken and continuing to take to CM for rasikathvam and for entertaining rasikas and continuing the romance with it. Most of the present successful Great Maestros/Maestros/Vidwans/Vidushis are managing to find meanings to their lives and are masters of art of living. Taking CM to the masses and with rasikas support, Cutcheri/teaching in CM can become one of the successful tools for support for living, with ease and comfort. Trend has already set in, to every one's knowledge, in a measured way, only to explode in a big way, soon.
Classical CM will continue to attract all of those 'Oldies"-with ‘eternal youth’ in mind, 'young' with leanings of 'Oldies' pleasure contents/counts and with the majority easily and successfully switching from both the state of minds.

It's also need of the hour to remove the myths-make believe stories/ideas in IM, focus on content of music greater and the mechanics and manner of delivering the great content, to the total satisfaction of the rasikas. This will certainly lead cmlover and his likes to be deeply'IN' and not 'OUT' of folds of IM, CM specifically.

munirao2001

[srikant1987]

CMlover,

You base yourself too much on the ashrama system. In the present day, by investing in shares, it is possible for teenagers to become millionaires and then save everything for the rest of their lives. And why, they maybe born to parents so rich, they need not even wait for their teenage. At the same time, it's possible that some people never learn enough to earn enough to save enough, and die learning or working.

[Nick H]

I will have to read this when my mind is not dulled by paint fumes, but I can see already that CML's warnings contrast sharply with some articles I have read in the daily press warning of the dangers of recreational drugs. These articles profess nonsense that doesn't even qualify as "fiction", thus probably utterly defeating their object, as the better-informed youngsters will simply laugh at them. CML's warning seems to, at least, have some verifiable facts as its basis.

I'm worried, though, about the acknowledged need for classical musicians to start learning and practising at an early age?

[gn.sn42]

I have a feeling that this is a stance. You are posturing for the sake of making a point?

I have that same feeling. Let's wait and see.

[arasi]

A sigh of relief

[rasikaranjan]

Dear Mr.Raman - response ref: 94 &95 - references to Mr, Yesudas may be read with the following historical background -

Remarkable contributions to cm by outstanding persons of other religions:

"During the colonial regime, the establishment became hostile to the native customs and culture. Obviously to break the backbone of the great nation and to make true the dream of McCauley, indulged in divide and rule policy. Nowhere in the world do we find the establishment taking a hostile attitude to the indigenous spiritual and cultural heritage of a nation.

A great living connoisseur of music, Garland Rajagopalan who has spent more than two decades in garnering facts and figures and authoring highly educative books, observes: "

[VK RAMAN]

rasikaranjan: Your points are well taken and should go deep into hearts of those who think CM is only for brahmins and who think people of other faith get iinto cm for money.

[cmlover]

(....continued)
I want to finish what I started before discussing or answering your concerns.
Let me remind you of my definition of CM (Trinity Music). My claim is that CM (Trinity Music) is intended for the V&LG. The Trinity exploited the grammar of classical music to generate an exclusive genre of music for the benefit of V&LG to pursue and attain salvation. The grammar which is highly scientific is much bigger than what the Trinity have utilized, in fact they have only scratched the surface. The same grammar can be used to craft an entirely different architecture which is focused towards the needs and aspirations of the youth. Let me explain:

In our younger days many of us were interested only in the cine/drama/country music which had shades of CM-grammar but could not be called CM by my strict definition. Most of them violated the Trinity-grammar some grossly. For example PSivan when he wrote songs for films he apologized for 'selling out' for cash! Those songs covered a variety of themes including eroticism with many non- bhakthi oriented which were highly popular among the youth. There were also inspirational music (such as those of bharathy) which goaded youngsters to sacrifice for the liberation of the country. Again they were in a language which the locals could understand. Yet we call them CM though strictly they are not. Many of those 'filmy' songs did find place in the latter half (thukkada) section of concerts much to the chagrin of the conservative older generations. They resented the degradation of the sacred CM through contamination with the 'light music'. I remember many of them walking out of the concert halls as soon as the thukkadas started. Thus there is a clear dichotomy!

Hence I suggest that we accept the facts and not attempt to bring the youth to appreciate CM (Trinity music). Let us do research and develop a new genre of music which will appeal to the youth based on the excellent grammar of our IM (Indian Music). Don't call it CM however (out of respect for the Trinity). This IM will have lyrics that will appeal to the emotions of youth and will be in emotive languages that they understand but still retain a similarity with CM so that when they mature they can appreciate the inner beauty of CM and migrate and meld with the older generations. We need a new breed of informed vaggeyakaras with a vision who understand youth and compose in scintillating new ragas or misra ragas and using rhythms not bounden by the Suladi thaaLa system. We need a new breed of young performers who could 'connect' with the youth. Unlike the present breed who try to mix and match trying to satisfy both the young and old. In short the IM music will be 'artha and Kama' oriented. So let us abandon the present two-tier concert paddhathi which neither satifies the oldies nor youths. Let us go our separate ways. Indeed such experiments are in progress. I congratulate Charulatha for her isai payanam which is paving the way for the youth to think of IM but if her goal is to sell CM it may fail miserably! We need more such experiments and enterprises..

Lastly what is the guarantee that youth would not get addicted to IM? It willl only be a passing fancy, and ultimately as they grow older they would discover the inner beauty of CM and come 'home' in due course.

Hence my advice is:
Youth! Shun CM and leave it to the Oldies!
Embrace IM with alacrity and come Home when you are ready

My bottom line is instead of trying to attract youth to CM (Trinity Music) let us adapt CM (break out of Trinity Music) to youth so that they may appreciate the music that appeals to them and who would eventually appreciate CM (Trinity Music) or call it Conservative Music!

concluded..

[girish_a]

With due respect to the elderly, CML's assumption that one can embark on the path to liberation when one is old (and carrying the heavy baggage of materialistic experiences) is completely fallacious.

[gn.sn42]

cmlover, that was a very interesting argument.

Personally, I reject the premises that CM is"Trinity music", that "Trinity music" is primarily for V & LG; and that a "separate but equal" approach is appropriate. To me, CM is about pleasure, not salvation. Thyagaraja in particular is the definition of "rock star" and I can only imagine what his output would have been like if he'd worked for the film industry. Everyone, young or old, enjoys his work. Conversely, innovations in CM should by all means happen, but I'm not convinced that it is only for youth. If I remember correctly, some self-identified older members of this forum are most supportive of innovation.

[cmlover]

As far as I know
CM - Trinity = 0 (zero)
which most would agree....
(even evident from the favourite songs alphabetically that folks are reporting here...)
Again most of the CM folks talk only about SSI, MMI, MDR, KVN, Alathur, DKP,... who belong to out-and-out Trinity ghOShTi. Seldom they talk about modern performers or vaggeyakaras.
The modern youth are unlikely to be impressed by the music of these stalwarts whereas they are demigods to the oldies.
Hence we need a total revamping of the system to attract the youth....

[srikant1987]

Of these musicians, KVN and MMI certainly can appeal instantly to anyone.

[cmlover]

Don't be so sanguine!
One man's fish is another's poison
Or in my language
lOkO bhinna ruci|

[munirao2001]

Cmlover
You have urged for 'Let us do research and develop a new genre of music which will appeal to the youth based on the excellent grammar of our IM (Indian Music)'. The light/sugama/Bhava sangitham and Indian Film music are already established genre of music, which are based on the grammar of IM, with freedom of anibhidha sangitham to take liberties with the grammar.
As already stated by me, in my earlier post/reply, the need is for planning and execution of a facet of CM, not explored intensively and extensively with the purely entertainment values of the youth(capable of flexibility and adoptability to suit the changing the trends), giving similar satisfaction, if not better, when compared to other genre serving them well. CM truly gives full scope and liberty for such experimentations and explorations, as proved by Great Maestros composers of other genre of IM.

There should be professionally conducted market research on the IM products, project report on excellence in management of the CM events, focused interaction and action borne out of intense exchange of ideas of IM musicians, composers and musicologists (Classical and other genre of IM) for the universal acceptance and adoption of the compositions-both existing and new, bani/system and styles for offer of the IM, appealing to the masses and youth, in particular. With honed skills of the very talented and popular musicians (we have immensely talented, in abundance) in this facet of IM and professional management of the event (of International Class), the success is guaranteed to take the Classical IM to the masses. The task is very tough, but eminently achievable with dedication, commitment and collective result oriented actions.

cmlover, your clarion call for
'Youth! Shun CM and leave it to the Oldies!
Embrace IM with alacrity and come Home when you are ready'
is unnecessary, because it has already happened. We are brainstorming for corrective actions for the remedy of this malady.

cmlover, it is a fact that IM musicians, CM in particular, currently in demand and highly popular are modern in the sense, they are in the prime age group of 20 to 40. Musicians, understanding the demand, are offering compositions of many vaggeyakaras, other than trinity. But, really the truth is, musicians find very few are really new and creative, not having the musical elements, contents, treatment and richness of the compositions of the trinity. They also face the ire of the committed and regular rasikas for the offer of unfamiliar compositions, not giving matching satisfaction levels of the compositions of the trinity.

cmlover, Yes, 'loko bhinna ruchi'. We are now focusing on the bhinna ruchi of the youth and ideating to explore the possibility of CM/IM offering and meeting their choice(s).

munirao2001

[rasikaranjan]

munirao2001

Excellent ideas - I shall povide more inputs shortly. Good luck!

[mohan]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News/arta ... 46547.aspx

Aruna Sairam's views

[VK RAMAN]

Thank you for sharing this very interesting news clip. I wish other prominent artists follow Sow Aruna's lead by example.

[munirao2001]

Mohan/VKRaman/other friends
It was interesting to read Vidushi Smt Aruna Sairam's views on this subject. It reflects some of my views/posts on this subject.
But, what we are seriously discussing and ideating is about the youth-both interested and disinterested. Initiated and not initiated. Most importantly, who 'shun' CM. Vidushi Smt.Aruna Sairam's youthful rasikas, may not be of 'disinterested' and 'shun' categories.
Chintan Bhaitak is urgently required. All the stake holders of CM - Musicians, teachers, musicologists, critics, rasikas, event managers, media and sponsors- highly meritorius representatives- have to sit down and brainstorm and come to decision(s) and action plans and careful monitoring for the success of this crucial and critical development in the larger interest of CM becoming Music for the Masses-Nationally and Internationally.

munirao2001

[munirao2001]

Ramasubramanian MK
Just I want to bring to your kind attention the fact about 'generation'. One generation denotes 33years span.

munirao2001

[munirao2001]

VKRaman
On Shri K.J.Yesudoss. Dasan Sir, with his long music journey has realized, practices and advocates truly secularism. While being a Christian by birth, he has truly understood that Divinity is critical, forms and rituals are one's own choices/requirements. He appreciates and pursues all paths-hindu way of life, specifically, which hails Unity in Diversity and Divinity. He is a humanist and religious, true spirit.
We should refrain from making uncharitable and citical comments, without critically examining and being factual.

munirao2001

[VK RAMAN]

I am from Kerala and I respect KJY and I am for admitting him at Guruvayoor temple. There are some rasikas who want to shut the artists from talking religion. Read the digression:
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... ts-p4.html - post no.93

[rasikaranjan]

Brainstorming session

Point one - As Thomas Grey bewailed fragrance of fresh flowers are wasted in the desert air, genuine talents also go stale for want of patrons. Organizers who work for selfish ends and ageing musicians, who have lost ability to perform well, should come forward to encourage the youngsters and unhesitatingly utter loudly Bhale and Sabhash by sitting in the front rows.. If they don’t do this, well-wishers of music should have the courage to show these ruffians their exit doors, as the lovers of the game of cricket did.

The great Chowdiah when he was made Kalanidhi, he checked the list of performers. Not finding the name of the budding genius MSG in the list, he offered the young man his own chance of accompanying GNB in the prime time!

More points shall follow.

[Shivadasan]

Dear rasikaranjan,
An excellent and enjoyable post with great information on the past history of CM. We should also include the contribution of Ilango adigal the Buddhist monk and dholak players like Nannumia. Scholars of history would be able to give more insights into the contribution of persons from other religions.

I would be interested in knowing the source from which the information on F.G.Natesa Iyer has been obtained. Some of the information on the post appears to be incorrect. Based on verified information we can say that he founded only the Rasika Ranjana Sabah in Trichinopoly. It is doubtful whether he had a hand in the formation of R.R. Sabas in Chennai and Calcutta. The statue in R.R. Sabha Trichi is that of Late Sri. L.Venkatraman, himself a fan of FGN and the previous president. However, there is a grand colour portrait of FGN in the main hall.

As per the information from the family members of FGN, because of his intense interest in dramas, he ran away from home at a very young age even before completing his SSLC when the highly orthodox family objected to his pursuing the profession of acting. Another version says that he was lured by the promises of Christian priests . He joined as a temporary labour in the railways and his efficiency and mental brilliance was noticed by the brown sahebs who took him under their wings and groomed him. He was great personality and came up to the top by sheer dint of hard work. After about 20 years of Christiany he realized that the life as Christian was not of that calibre that the priests had painted before him and the society in which he lived was narrow minded and not enlightened. He sought the advice of Kanchi Periaval and came back to the Hindu fold with the his blessings . Kanchi Perival had remarked to some of his descendents that it took great deal of courage to convert back to Hinduism and not all could do it.

His services to mythological Tamil dramas and CM came only after his conversion to Hinduism. He was himself a Sri Vidya Upasaka and contributed generously to all the temples in around Trichi. His wife was a saintly person known as Mathaji Raja Rajeswari who achieved siddhi in Sri Vidya. She used to have vision of Hindu gods and goddesses. Pudukkottai Dakshinamurthy Pillai had great respect for her and used to spend a lot of time with her discussing about spirituality.

The following interesting account from the Charithram of Maha Periaval gives a different insight into the viewpoint of FGN on Christianity.
http://www.srikanchimahaswami100.org/Sr ... 1_edit.pdf

Youth’s Change of Heart
During our Swamigal’s visit to Nerur, ( June of 1923), a young man hailing from a very conservative and pious vedic Brahmin family belonging to Kerala, came to Tiruchi with the intention of converting to Christianity. He was a graduate and possessed a clear and rational mind. However, his innocence accepted made him accept whatever information was fed to him. He got attracted by the teachings and speeches by the local Christian preachers and priests. His friends took him to meet with F.G.Natesa Iyer, then municipal Chairman at Tiruchi. Natesa Iyer elaborated on his twenty years of experience and knowledge on the Christian religion and advised the young man that the Hindu religion was our mother and it was not appropriate to abandon your mother. He also told him that he was unfortunate to have committed such a sin, but realized his folly in time and he didn’t like to see anyone else commit the same mistake. However, this young man was very adamant and did not change his mind about converting to Christianity. At that point, Natesa Iyer looked at him and said, " I cannot say anything else to persuade you at this point. But, before you surrender to Christian priests, I want you to meet Sri Kamakoti Peetam, Sri Acharya Swamigal. He is camping close by and if you are willing, come with me."

[Nick H]

There are some rasikas who want to shut the artists from talking religion.

There are some rasikas that want to listen to music, and I doubt that you'll find any definition of concert anywhere that includes preaching. Furthermore, that is a most remarkable thing to say in this, of all threads. I cannot see preaching as attractive to youth at all!

I am completely at a loss as to where all these history lessons are taking us, interesting though some of them may be.

Is there a suggestion that carnatic music should actually be just for a bunch of Mylapore Brahmins?

Munirao2001, whilst I got fed up with listening to KJY's talking, I continue to respect his struggle, as well as appreciating his voice.

Perhaps, one day, religion will be associated with freedom rather than with birth --- but I fear that that idea will be unpopular with many of the members here, let alone in India generally. As Munirao says of KJY,

While being a Christian by birth, he has truly understood that Divinity is critical, forms and rituals are one's own choices/requirements.

I believe it is a rule of thumb to consider a generation to span thirty years, but it is not a measure, as such. My father is one generation, I am the next, my cats (for want of children!) are the next...

[VK RAMAN]

Perhaps, one day, religion will be associated with freedom rather than with birth - I like that

[arasi]

Didn't I see him post as srkris in another post yesterday?
The way unwanted posts and topics make their appearance, even if the admin calls himself Big Brother, I don't mind. The same applies to moderators too. Remember how the very title made a few unhappy and the moderators resorted to calling themselves Member First?

srkris, admin, mod, whatever the name, they do the work. So long as they don't get too big for their boots, I am happy--happy that they work while I only breeze in and out

[rasikaranjan]

All religions stand for peace, love & want its members to help the needy.
Live and let live. Civilization also teaches the same. As rightly said and agreed to by all it ensures us freedom to live without hindrance and expect in turn not to hinder or interfere in others freedom. No one has a right to interfere in others freedom to pray and practice his religion as long as it does not hinder others’ freedom to do so. There is no hindrance if one prays to the form of God belonging to other religion privately. If he wants to go to the place of worship of another religion, it should be in accordance with the customs followed by that religion and without hurting the sentiments of its followers. I think this is what Guruvayur temple authorities want. If I am wrong please correct me. I am also a Malayalee born and brought up in Kerala.

[Nick H]

Very off-topic, but...

I don't have a problem with any of the moderators posting as admin or moderator when it is about the site, or site discipline --- in fact, it can be a very good idea and help to prevent things becoming personal. It only makes me uncomfortable when someone who we have been deeling with for years suddenly disappears behind a functionary title.

However, it's a free world (sort of!) so I suppose that, if he wants to change his name to "admin" for everything ...then I'll have to put up with it.

Oh! As often, I'm behind the times, and I see skris has now put his name on that post

-------------------------------------

As to why I think it might be unpopular...

Seems to me that birth plays a major role, in India, and it is the primary determination, not only of a person's religion, but of the religion that they are considered to belong to. With reference to our forum membership, just, given the subject of the forum, it would be surprising if our membership did not include some of the more orthodox and old fashioned.

Whilst this might be of some relevance, generally, to the thread topic, and I have touched upon it, I hope nobody will take this as a challenge to their personal beliefs or way of life. Not on this occasion, at least

[srkris]

OK Nick, I don't prefer to lose your audience.

[Nick H]

Thank you. That is a very kind comment

[tkb]

I think the performing deserved youth, if given a good support system can bring in more of their friends in to this music. Youth in Carnatic Music today needs support from the rasikas - with good attendance, reviews or comments about their performances to them directly - may be over email or phone, discussions on their performances in forums like rasikas etc. From the senior - established artists encouraging the youth of today by creating oppurtunities for the deserved, performing alongside where ever possible guiding them, if approached for, the nuances of performing etc.

Well this is one of my thought while reasoning out the basic topic.

[shantharama]

Good topic to discuss and here is my two cents, I currently reside in US and visit India atleast once a year, one should note that carnatic Music in US has flourished particularly in last 10 years, I know many young upcoming artist in US, Rohan Krishnamurthy Mrundagist in one good example as a young US born is pursuing carnatic Music as career,

However everytime I visit India I see many of my friends and relatives are obsessed with Western and bollywood music, a close relative of mine is aspiring to be a Guitarist and he seems to be doing good

Having said this one should also discuss where do you see carnatic Music in next 20 years, in my personal opinion we stalwarts of carnatic music should promote Carnatic music to the youth, this diving music is not just for selected few

[VK RAMAN]

stalwart - a person who is loyal to their allegiance! Are we?

[prabuddha]

A side point - my close friends' kids in Chennai, Hyd and Bangalore, are not only not interested in CM, they're not even interested in Tamil or Telugu film music. On rare occasion, they may hum a megahit Hindi song which generally turns out to be very rap music like in inspiration, with a large number of English words in the lyrics. Their parents i.e., my friends, are not CM addicts but are very CM aware and watch it on TV and listen to it on radio. Their kids by and large listen only to western pop music.

I think Indian music itself is in some danger of serious neglect by youth. CM of course is much more so.

[srikant1987]

I'm honestly not worried a lot about much of the music from new Indian movies.

For me, taste in quality music is more important than taste in Indian music.

[rasikaranjan]

Dear Prabuddha: This is trend we find everywhere. You would be doing a service to music if you talk to such persons about the advantages of listening to carnatic music, though all types of music form part of our music only. Over the years various music systems have branched out from our music. Dr. Balamurali explains this concept very diligently. Every one of us should do our part in propagating the marvels of our music, so that posterity would enjoy its fruits

[Nick H]

But, in the first place, one (including our 'youth') has to like and enjoy the music!

Otherwise, you might just as well try to persuade me of the benefits to my health that gymnastic exercise would bring. Yes, I know, but I loathe such exercise, and hate sport!

[VK RAMAN]

Watch and listen how Adi - the young prodigy in CM along with his crew of young pakkavadyam:

Adi performed this year in May in Jaya TV. The clippings are uploaded in youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcL3hCAT ... re=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iNT_UWI ... re=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRAQLpSx ... re=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1Kfh92BD_k&NR=1

He should also be of encouragement to the other youths

[rasikaranjan]

It is common to find different people like different types of beverages similarly different types of music. Some give immediate kick and pleasure spoiling the health and longevity in the end. Parents and well-wishers advise children to take the corrective path. Of course, an alcoholic’s advice for saner life deserves derisive reaction. An average individual would not like to exert physically unless under medical advice. Kanchi Mahaswamy echoing the solicitous advice of Sage Yagnavalkaya (who gave us Dharma Sastra) has advised that listening cm gives eternal bliss to the performer and the listener equally which is not found in any other form of worship. Let our youth be of kind and generous nature and abjure terror and violence. Letter our mission be to woe the youth to cm.

[rasikaranjan]

Dear wordpecker: I wanted to reply to your points. Owing to preoccupations I could ‘nt get time to answer your points. You have made a very practical point when you say that that ganamelas attract large crowd, as I had already made the point clear while initiating the discussion. The gaudy attire or songs that you refer form part and parcel of Ganamelas. However, all items are not so.

Every one agrees that in cine music, every word engages the attention of the listener, most of them soaked in melodious music. Sometimes the lyrical contents are hilarious, but mostly, brimming in bhakti bhava, and at other times mocking at the peccadilloes of common person’s faults and foibles spinning and engaging the listeners in introspection. These lyrics appeal to the listeners because they are in the local language. Moreover, each song is the result of the hard work of many professionals with the sole aim of making it a hit for all round benefit mentally to the listeners and fiscally to the producers.

Carnatic music appears to be in the hands of a few minorities in Chennai, as rightly pointed out by a popular musician of Kerala Smt. Omnakutty in Asianet. Though many orthodox Malayalees nostalgically reverie the olden days, when we had Vaikom Vasudevan Nair, KunJukunJu Bhagavathar, Sebastian Bhagavathar and some Chennai based Bhagavathars regaling the audience in functions like Vaikottu Ashtami, Navaratrhi Mandopam, or Tripunithura Utsavam and many utsavams like Sri Rama Navami, apart from various sabhas situated right from Cannanore to Trivandrum.

It is sad neither Govt. of Kerala nor prominent Malayalees are doing anything as compared to the minority community in Tamil Nadu. Majority of the Vidwans right from Chembai, Palghat Rama Bhagavathar, Palghat Mani Iyer, KVN, Raghu, . N.C. Vasanthakokilam , P. Leela, M. D..Ramanathan, T.N. Krishnan, Dr. L. Subramaniam brothers, Ganesh Kumaresh, Bombay Jayshree, etc. etc. and today’s leading playback singers right from Hariharan, Shankar Mahadevan to Srinivasan, numbering around a dozen are Malayalees in the Tamil Cine field with golden voices. If these melodious voices were exploited in cm, by encouraging them from their childhood as their present Tamil star compeers had been, imagine the cm atmosphere in Kerala., We must organize concerts where youth should be involved. There are many music colleges in Kerala right from Palghat to Trivandrum without any practical use, excepting producing some theoreticians.

"KERALITES PLEASE WAKE UP"

[Nick H]

With respect for the passionate hopes of those who sincerely wish carnatic music to survive and thrive into the infinite future, I would suggest that they look at what is written in this thread, and consider what part of it would attract or engage a thirteen-year-old.

They might even ask the question of any teenager known to them who is not currently interested in carnatic music.

As a piece of introspection,l it might be useful for them in helping to achieve their noble aim in the future.

[rasikaranjan]

Srinivasrgvn- mail no.12- has hit the nail, hit the point home when he says that his father who is almost against listening music unless it is very attractive, listens to Ms’s Balaji Pancharatnamala. This point must be borne in mind by all modern young musicians. This is the secret of the success of MS. She stands head and shoulder above all. Basic quality of music is that it should appeal to all if it is genuine music. We hear in our puranas that Krishna’s Venuganam attracted even the cattle. There is striking quality of Oothakkadu Venkatasubba Iyer’s music. When rendered tunefully whether in Bhajans or concert format, you have to see the reaction of the audience to believe how the music moves the audience. It attracted even all sorts of living beings including hyenas when he sang, is what we hear from his life story. Srinivasrgn can let me know your address to get you a copy of my book, where I shall further dilate with more details to stress that melody is most important to attract not only youth, but also all!

[VK RAMAN]

"KERALITES PLEASE WAKE UP"

[lifeisasong]

I apologise if I repeat points already mentioned below, as I have only had a chance to see some of the posts on this thread:

I came to CM relatively late in my youthful life, having beeen exposed to HM in my "extreme" youth. I have been trying CM out on various "youth"-South Indian and non South Indian, who do not show any particular regard for it. So far the difficulties lie in the following:

1)Shouting in concerts. Acoustics are terrible at CM concerts. Either the singer is yelling or the volume of the mikes is too high. Yes teens and young people listen to loud music, but the ones I know don't like it in CM concerts. I don't like it either! I was recently told by a young girl I took to a CM concert that she wanted to cover her ears.

2) An attitude of superiority. The moment one expresses an interest in CM, one is lectured endlessly about the superiority of this form of music. It IS an immensely superior form of music. But young people listen to lots of different kinds of music and do not take kindly to endless lectures about how this is the best, oldest, purest, most divine, most complicated form of music. They should be left to arrive at that conclusion for themselves, if they want to.

3) Religious content. Ideally, this should not make a difference. One can be an atheist and not care much for Rama but still appreciate the genius of Thyagaraja. But it does make a difference to young people, sometimes, who might prefer more non-religious (sometimes even irreverant) content.

4) Early exposure, from childhood itself. This applies to ICM in general not just CM. I think some parents from the South are doing a much better job of this than in the north! Thinking back to my school days, we had very limited exposure to quality ICM.

5) Teachers who fail to relate to their students. There are lots of CM teachers, not all of them very good. Your teacher has got to have that special something that makes you want to make your voice soar and touch the sky.

All that said, I still think CM is in robust form, and has many, many young people interested in it, as rasikas, students and perfomers. In fact I think there are too many young people willing to perform without being quite ready for it yet!

[arasi]

lifeisasong,
Your forum name is one of my favorites.
What you say appeals to me even more. Your points are valid. What you say speaks of your understanding as to how most young people think and develop their taste for any music.
You are right. For the parents to speak of CM as something exclusive, holy or as a difficult thing to approach--can make them go scrambling in different directions.
On the other hand, I have seen many instances when even very young children listen to CM with interest. Putting it on the pedestal is perhaps the reason for their shunning it when they get older.

Now, to make CM more children-friendly:
No blaring mikes (as you say). If they cover their ears, you don't say--don't be fussy, listen to good (holy, high class) music but admit that you are bothered by it too.
No delays, no long speeches, no talking when the music goes on (on the part of the adults!). More than anything else, provide an environment where they listen to soft music which can slowly become part of them, and if and when they want to learn CM, they are one step ahead of others who did not grow up with music.

[Nick H]

2) An attitude of superiority. The moment one expresses an interest in CM, one is lectured endlessly about the superiority of this form of music. It IS an immensely superior form of music. But young people listen to lots of different kinds of music and do not take kindly to endless lectures about how this is the best, oldest, purest, most divine, most complicated form of music. They should be left to arrive at that conclusion for themselves, if they want to.

Good points, out of which I pick this one for comment.

It is not only the superiority-of-the-music trip that puts off the young, it is the whole moral superiority thing.

A previous comment of mine invited contributors to re-read this thread, and to try to see it as a youngster would read it. I am afraid that most youngsters would give it up after a few posts.

I wonder about the ages of those posting here (not usually relevant). I wonder how many still can find the ability to look with the eyes of a teenager? If anyone can do anything for the popularity of CM with the young, it will be someone with this ability, not someone without it. It is very easy to misunderstand the written word, and I could be completely wrong, but I get the feeling of "youth" being written about as some kind of mythical creature, rather than as young people, with understanding. Apologies if I am wrong about this.

Nick. Aged 57.