save the raga

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 05 Sep 2009, 10:03

If rasikas.org were to launch a save the raga campaign to revive ragas on the verge of oblivion, on the lines of http://savethewords.org/, what would be your choice? And strategy?

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 05 Sep 2009, 10:19

Interesting question!

nArAyaNagowLa gets my vote for sure.

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 05 Sep 2009, 13:06

rvmony · Post by **rvmony** » 05 Sep 2009, 13:37

Saraswathi manohari

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 05 Sep 2009, 13:39

nArAyaNa gauLai gets my vote too.

karnATaka behag

dEvamanOhari

mAnji (though I don't like it too much!)

gauLi pantu (again, just to preserve it!)

paras

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 05 Sep 2009, 22:45

sAmanta
One way we can save them is right here. Experts can explain and give a demo of ragas.
We can archive them in a special thread.

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 06 Sep 2009, 07:11

Narayanagowla! I'm a big fan of this raga.

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 06 Sep 2009, 08:43

Many of the mAyAmALavagauLa janyas: pUrvi, ArdradEshi, gauri, gauLipantu, gurjari. paraju is also a candidate but seems to be in a better position than these ragas...

sAmantA, mAnji, AndhALi.

balahamsA is criminally treated given the vastness of the repertoire available. There are so many good compositions, an aTa tALa varNa, innumerable tyAgarAjA krithis, a Dikshitar magnum opus in guruguhAdanyam. I would think that this should be the first candidate to be saved. I would propose that instead of RTPs in rAgEshri, darbArikAnaDA, bAgEshri etc [all melodious rAgAs, no complaint against them], some vidvAn attempt an RTP in balahamsA. It would be a worthy, worthwhile and much needed effort! balahamsA itself would thank him or her

rupavati · Post by **rupavati** » 06 Sep 2009, 09:32

I heard a fairly elaborate alapana of Balahamsa recently from Smt. Sowmya (see Kutcheri thread). Prashant, she's singing in your neck of the woods later this week.. why don't you request an RTP?

[IIRC, she sang an RTP in Narayanagaula at the Academy a few years back]

rupavati · Post by **rupavati** » 06 Sep 2009, 09:38

At the risk of sparking one of those all-too-familiar rasikas.org storms in a teacup... I strongly vote for first "saving" two popular ragas from the onslaught of mediocre treatment they have suffered in recent years: Mohanam & Kalyani

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 06 Sep 2009, 09:44

sAranga?

eppramod · Post by **eppramod** » 06 Sep 2009, 10:53

prashant wrote:Many of the mAyAmALavagauLa janyas: pUrvi, ArdradEshi, gauri, gauLipantu, gurjari. paraju is also a candidate but seems to be in a better position than these ragas...

sAmantA, mAnji, AndhALi.

balahamsA is criminally treated given the vastness of the repertoire available.

Prashant, I think Sanjay in his recent blog too was very much concerned about this Raga being not explored much

He mentions about a Patnam Varnam also in the same.Who knows he may be planning an RTP in this

Arun's recent raga identification link also has a clipping Balahamsa alapana (done by I suppose Soumya).
It indeed is a melodious raga!

Pamod

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Sep 2009, 11:03

Arun's blog introduced me to balahamsa. Prashant, I did not realize the vastness of the available material. An RTP in bAlahamsA would indeed be wonderful.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 06 Sep 2009, 11:37

I agree with balahamsa, did you all download and listen to TK jayarama iyers play in balahamsa in the radhika or rasaali uploaded concert. It is excellent

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 06 Sep 2009, 14:40

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 07 Sep 2009, 10:14

prashant wrote:Many of the mAyAmALavagauLa janyas: pUrvi, ArdradEshi, gauri, gauLipantu, gurjari.

Like Prashant I also have a desire to see some of these mALavagauLa janyas revived. How? Unfortunately the corpus of extant compositions is very limited and the artists tend to restrict themselves to rendering the kRti alone. Should the revival in such cases be restricted to kRti renditions?

Take mangaLa kaishikI for instance. For all the compositions that are supposed to have existed in it, at present we are left with a single kriti (shrI bhArgavi) and just three or four versions - those of Mrs. Shantha Subramaniam (from Veena Varadaiyya's lineage) featuring chyuta-panchama/ prati madhyama prominently, Sri S. Rajam, Sri VV Srivatsa, and the version resurrected from SSP by Sri TM Krishna.

How can we imagine this rAga with such a limited sample to draw from?

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 07 Sep 2009, 10:46

vainika wrote: Like Prashant I also have a desire to see some of these mALavagauLa janyas revived. How? Unfortunately the corpus of extant compositions is very limited and the artists tend to restrict themselves to rendering the kRti alone. Should the revival in such cases be restricted to kRti renditions?

That would at least be a start! It would definitely be a possibility for today's capable artistes to use the SSP as a base to render these compositions thoroughly, and even possible extrapolate short AlApanAs from the swarupa established by the compositions. I mentioned these rAgAs especially since they all seem to sound very similar now due the mAyAmALavagauLa dominance, and first we need to establish what are the differences in prayogas between these rAgAs.

Even if it is difficult to extrapolate the rAgA swarUpa from the krithi, as vainika mentions, it would not be a bad thing to hear more concert renditions of beautiful krithis like gauri girirAjakumAri, shri guruguhasya dAsOham, shrI gaNEshAtparam, sarasvatyA bhagavatyA etc etc.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 07 Sep 2009, 14:12

SSP is here to stay, it's a book. We should first learn as much as we can about the living rare ragas from living masters. Instead of "extrapolating" raga swarupams (probably creating new swarupams for these ragas). One can just as well create new ragams to replace these.

prashanth wrote:Even if it is difficult to extrapolate the rAgA swarUpa from the krithi, as vainika mentions, it would not be a bad thing to hear more concert renditions of beautiful krithis like gauri girirAjakumAri, shri guruguhasya dAsOham, shrI gaNEshAtparam, sarasvatyA bhagavatyA etc etc.

Now indeed this is part of the problem. I really find it hard to see a "picture" of the raga in most MD compositions. To see new details in a ragam I have a general picture of, these are fantastic, obviously!

For example, a general picture of narayana gowlai is easier to obtain from "innALLu daya rAkunna" of Thyagaraja and indeed maguva ninne than MD's "shrI rAmam". Now some people might get annoyed!

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 07 Sep 2009, 14:21

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 07 Sep 2009, 16:04

srikant1987 wrote:SSP is here to stay, it's a book. We should first learn as much as we can about the living rare ragas from living masters. Instead of "extrapolating" raga swarupams (probably creating new swarupams for these ragas). One can just as well create new ragams to replace these.

I agree, Srikant. I was trying to make the point that there are very few living masters who possess coherent pATAntaram for these krithis. The SSP is the next line of defence. I completely am in agreement with you that a living, breathing rendition is better than one learnt up from notation. Sorry for not making my point clear.

srikant1987 wrote: For example, a general picture of narayana gowlai is easier to obtain from "innALLu daya rAkunna" of Thyagaraja and indeed maguva ninne than MD's "shrI rAmam". Now some people might get annoyed!

I am the first one to be annoyed! shri rAmAm is, with maguva, the definitive composition in nArAyaNagauLa. innALu daya, while an excellent song, is [at least to me] not nearly as comprehensive as the other two.

How can you not see all of bhairavi in bAlagOpAla, or all of sAvEri in shri rAjagOpAla?

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 07 Sep 2009, 16:06

srinivasrgvn wrote:prashant, I am just afraid that the kritis that you mentioned will become extinct soon! Gurus should create backup by teaching these compositions to their sishyAs! Don't you think so? But, the main problem is that there are very less gurus who know the kritis! The only person to whom I associate these songs are Smt.Kalpakam Swaminathan!

Most of these songs are indeed preserved by Kalpakam Mami in pristine form! Here is the first request to vainika to get all these rare songs professionally recorded both in Mami's voice and on her vINA.

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 07 Sep 2009, 16:14

prashant wrote:
srinivasrgvn wrote:prashant, I am just afraid that the kritis that you mentioned will become extinct soon! Gurus should create backup by teaching these compositions to their sishyAs! Don't you think so? But, the main problem is that there are very less gurus who know the kritis! The only person to whom I associate these songs are Smt.Kalpakam Swaminathan!
Most of these songs are indeed preserved by Kalpakam Mami in pristine form! Here is the first request to vainika to get all these rare songs professionally recorded both in Mami's voice and on her vINA.

i second that request.
indeed we must preserve mami's music for posterity..
not necessarily her repertoire of MD kritis alone, but all the others too...

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 07 Sep 2009, 17:12

prashant,

I'm not talking of how comprehensive these songs are. I am not fit to talk of how comprehensive any of these compositions are. But if one were to attempt any manodharmam in the raga, innALu and maguva ninne outline the first few steps to take.

And I also second the request to vainika!

ignoramus · Post by **ignoramus** » 07 Sep 2009, 17:22

i third the request ( not sure of the correctness there) to Vainika, for sure.

metnanda · Post by **metnanda** » 07 Sep 2009, 18:26

I would add these ragas also to the list
Mukhari
Vegavahini

nandan

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 07 Sep 2009, 19:15

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 07 Sep 2009, 19:51

I observe that while I've heard many mukhAris, they've all been at older vidwans' concerts.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Sep 2009, 21:31

More than the number of requests now, the number of regrets of not preserving them for posterity are going to be overwhelming--if this does not happen.

eppramod · Post by **eppramod** » 07 Sep 2009, 22:47

>>>>>> shri rAmAm is, with maguva, the definitive composition in nArAyaNagauLa. innALu daya, while an excellent song, is [at least to me] not nearly as comprehensive as the other two.

How can you not see all of bhairavi in bAlagOpAla, or all of sAvEri in shri rAjagOpAla?

<<<<<<<

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... sabha.html

Don't know how successful TMK was to revive the main raga in our "save the raga" topic

.

But definitely Sree rAmam in Ragam Thanam Kriti form would have been a treat!

rajesh_rs · Post by **rajesh_rs** » 08 Sep 2009, 15:03

Karnataka Devagandhari, owing to its similarity to Abheri.

I'd nominate Revagupthi also. Melodious morning raga, underutilized.

I know only one song in Balahamsa - Parulanu Vedanu, which inspired "It's gonna be alright" on the Colonial Cousins' fusion debut album. However, most people who heard the song don't know of its significance or Carnatic background. Balahamsa is such a lovely ragam.

I'd add Kanakangi to this list too. I have heard only Yesudas sing Kanakangi - Shree Gananatham Bhajamyaham, not counting "Moham ennum theeyil" from the movie Sindhubhairavi.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 08 Sep 2009, 16:34

Abheri is itself an endangered raga, and there's more hope of saving it than KDG.

But KDG is endangered nonetheless! nagumOmu is one of the most popular songs in "KDG" now, where as nagumOmu itself is not KDG!

kanakAngi is a synthesised raga afaik.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 08 Sep 2009, 16:38

MDR used to sing balahamsa quite often, and Malladi Brothers sing it frequently too, but I have never heard R, N, or S in this ragam. It is indeed a really beautiful ragam and I associate it with the kEdAragowLa - nArAyaNagowLa - suruTTi group based on its melody. Especially its unique M R M G S with that slide from the R to M is so evocative.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Sep 2009, 22:12

Thanks rajesh_rs for the reference to the bAlahamsa song in the Colonial Cousins album. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTsPDboepxk .
You are right that no one would have associated that with bAlahamsa unless they know the song or know the raga bhava well. Before the recent intro to bAlahamsa ( and even after that ), I would have thought it is kedara gowla or suratti. ( btw, that hard beat does not mesh with the raga bhava or the emotion carried in the sahitya or in the singer's voice

)

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 08 Sep 2009, 22:44

For really rock-y versions of Balahamsa, try Dandamu by
Balamuralikrishna (at Music India Online)
or MDR (on YouTube).

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 08 Sep 2009, 23:45

daNDamupeTTenu rA also features in the Carnatic Pep album of Smt. Sowmya and Sri Sasikiran. While the Colonial Cousin's version, and the Pep Album version are supposed to the 'rock' versions, it is MDR's version that truly rocks!! Go figure!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Sep 2009, 02:03

Thanks gn.sn42. I listened to the MDR version and it is rock-y and roll-y.

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 09 Sep 2009, 07:48

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 09 Sep 2009, 09:14

vainika wrote: Take mangaLa kaishikI for instance. For all the compositions that are supposed to have existed in it, at present we are left with a single kriti (shrI bhArgavi) and just three or four versions - those of Mrs. Shantha Subramaniam (from Veena Varadaiyya's lineage) featuring chyuta-panchama/ prati madhyama prominently, Sri S. Rajam, Sri VV Srivatsa, and the version resurrected from SSP by Sri TM Krishna.

How can we imagine this rAga with such a limited sample to draw from?

There are krti-s of Muttiah bhAgavatar and tiruvottriur tyAgayyar available.. Old-timers who sing gItagOvindam in traditionally indicated raga-s sing the last asTapadi - 'Kuru yadunandana candana/nijagAda sA yadunandanE' in this raga.. These, and subbarama diksitar's sancari, along with the mukta-pada-grasta gItam (or is it two gItams) should be sufficient for someone who really wants to visualise the raga..

malavi · Post by **malavi** » 09 Sep 2009, 10:53

There is a beautiful kriti of Tyagaraja "sanatana paramapavana ' in palamanjari. It is ages since i heard the kriti.Ragas kumudakriya, devamanohari and devagandhari are also not heard often.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 09 Sep 2009, 12:56

keerthi wrote: There are krti-s of Muttiah bhAgavatar and tiruvottriur tyAgayyar available.. Old-timers who sing gItagOvindam in traditionally indicated raga-s sing the last asTapadi - 'Kuru yadunandana candana/nijagAda sA yadunandanE' in this raga.. These, and subbarama diksitar's sancari, along with the mukta-pada-grasta gItam (or is it two gItams) should be sufficient for someone who really wants to visualise the raga..

Who are these old-timers, and are any recordings of any of these available, Keerthi? If not, can some of them be convinced to record the gg?

thanks

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 09 Sep 2009, 14:13

Sri B. Krishnamoorthy & Sangita Kalanidhi Smt. R. Vedavalli have recorded the AshTapadis in traditional ragas. This CD is available commercially. nijagAda sA yadunandanE is indeed sung in mangaLakaishiki there.

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 09 Sep 2009, 17:33

Thanks Prashant, will look for this recording.

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 09 Sep 2009, 19:23

keerthi wrote: There are krti-s of Muttiah bhAgavatar and tiruvottriur tyAgayyar available.. These, and subbarama diksitar's sancari, along with the mukta-pada-grasta gItam (or is it two gItams) should be sufficient for someone who really wants to visualise the raga..

Now, which Mangalakaishiki are we going to save here? I do not know about the ashtpadi but the kRtis of Muttiah Bhagavatar and Tiruvotriyur Tyagayya hardly seemed to be the same as the other compositions in that ragam. A long while ago Lakshmanji was kind enough to share a copy of the notation of this composition. To me, it hardly seemed to be the same Mangalakaishiki that Subbarama Dikshitar documented. Even the arohana-avarohana seemed to differ. So whether a MangalaKaishiki without a MPM usage and characteristic associated prayogas is still Mangalakaishiki is a moot point. So should we then say "Save the raga with the (characterisitic) prayoga" rather than just save the raga? If not , reverting back to Ramki's original analogy it would be just like taking up a thesaurus and trying to save a homonym!

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 12 Sep 2009, 10:36

vidya wrote:Now, which Mangalakaishiki are we going to save here? I do not know about the ashtpadi but the kRtis of Muttiah Bhagavatar and Tiruvotriyur Tyagayya hardly seemed to be the same as the other compositions in that ragam. A long while ago Lakshmanji was kind enough to share a copy of the notation of this composition. To me, it hardly seemed to be the same Mangalakaishiki that Subbarama Dikshitar documented. ..

... So should we then say "Save the raga with the (characterisitic) prayoga" rather than just save the raga?

I strongly suspect Mangalakaisika has a smidgen of the prati-madhyama throughout.. I am not sure which composition you looked at, but I am convinced that there is no problem..

Mangalakaisika is a terribly old raga, and amongst its many claims to celebrity, is the fact that krSNadEvarAya has mentioned it in one of his kavyA-s..! So it must have grown from a tune, a mettu, into a slightly-blown rAga (not sure if it can be called full-blown)..

I have had occasion to hear even the Patnam subrahmanya ayyar composition, and there is a coherence in the raga treatment in Patnam's, HMB's and T.TyAgayyar's songs.. In this one case, i feel MD must have stuck closely to the scale and his treatment is largely scale-based, and also has strong resemblance to the aSTapadI, which is no surprise, considering how his father used to sing the entire gItagOvindam every ekAdaSI..

There is even a composition of U.VEnkaTasubbayyar in this rAga, and his treatment is even more puzzling, it gives us a third avatara of the raga - one with a pancasrUti dhaivatam and a kaisiki niSAdam..!

why should there be a problem if we have two-three versions of a raga..?

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 17 Sep 2009, 16:59

Takka and Suddha Bangaala

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 17 Sep 2009, 17:09

I have never heard an extensive alapana of Yamuna Kalyani, given the brilliant Jambupathe by MD. If someone has a sample, request you to please post it.

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 17 Sep 2009, 20:16

metnanda · Post by **metnanda** » 19 Sep 2009, 05:40

I feel even ANDHOLIKA, is in this list. Now a days we rerely hear 'ragasudharasa panamu' the majestic tyagaraja song. Rasikas should listen to Dwaram Venkataswamy Naidu's violin rendering of this song with alapanam.

nandan

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 19 Sep 2009, 07:31

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 19 Sep 2009, 12:07

kartik wrote:I have never heard an extensive alapana of Yamuna Kalyani, given the brilliant Jambupathe by MD. If someone has a sample, request you to please post it.

TMK sang an elaaborate AlApana before singing jambUpatE, at chowdiah memorial hall sometime last year.. charulata rAmAnujam's response was impressive.. He didn't sing neraval or swarakalpana, however..