why youth shun carnatic music?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 10 Sep 2009, 19:23

Let us take it head on - what each one of our rasikas can do to prevent youth shun CM?

rasikaranjan · Post by **rasikaranjan** » 10 Sep 2009, 20:59

First and foremost - expose them only to "perfect sruti soaked melodious music rendered by mellifluous voices- excellent CDs are available - trust you do not want me to name the artistes

Different songs in same raga rendered by artistes of the above standard - preferably songs that are popular can be next step to make them conversant with the ragas can be the next step.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Sep 2009, 22:17

You still make it sound a bit like army training camp.

But if you mean, give them the opportunity to hear things that are not necessarily the heavier music might choose for oneself, then yes... good idea.

I can speak from bitter experience with one youth. Well ok, not youth, though my wife is a few years younger than me...

She does not really share my musical taste, but found some CDs by an artist not usually spoken of as a purist carnatic musician in our forum, and was enjoying them until she noticed a pained expression on my face. How stupid of me.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Sep 2009, 22:57

Nick,
Any number of personal instances are not going to make a difference with those who simply do not try to look at things from the perspective of the young ones. It is like saying to them only the classics are worth reading and nothing else. It is like saying the temple or the puja room in the house are the only places where you can meditate upon the Almighty. If we have such rigid rules, I am afraid many among the youth will abandon even the interest they may already have for CM.
By the way, you are not doing badly yourself. Or shoud I say 'S'?!!

rveeraraghavan · Post by **rveeraraghavan** » 10 Sep 2009, 23:19

I agree with Rasikaranjan, post 163. Although my mother tongue is Tamil, I had very little knowledge of the language or culture since I grew up in the north, but, I grew up listening to Naalayira Divya prabhandham, particularly Thiruppavai, MSS's Suprabatham, Vishnu Sahsaranamam etc. As these songs were sung ( or played ) on most of our religious occasions. These songs were so melodious, it drew me to classical music more than anything else, even before any formal training.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Sep 2009, 23:57

Veeraraghavan,
I totally agree with you when you say: These songs were so melodious, it drew me to classical music more than anything else, even before any formal training.
You said it, as any youth should be able to say who can have such a happy atmosphere. Two things worked here. Your being provided with such a musical surrounding by your parents, and the beauty of the music you could hear.

lifeisasong · Post by **lifeisasong** » 11 Sep 2009, 04:20

Arasi thanks

. Yes, CM should begin as the lullaby.

Nick, totally agree. I prefer "young people" myself. And the moral superiority is indeed very offputting, not just to young people, but to people of any age coming to Carnatic music.

rasikaranjan · Post by **rasikaranjan** » 11 Sep 2009, 04:31

I would like to share with you the opinion given by Dr. B. Ramamurthy, the world renowned neuro-surgeon who did some research on the subject. He says music induces a state of peace and tranquility and often emotional ecstasy. Pleasant music induces a state of equilibrium on central nervous system and brain. It is the brain and central nervous system that control all the organs and all functions of the body. When the brain is tranquil, it induces same tranquility in all the organs and the system. When the brain is perturbed by emotions like fear or anger, this affects the heart and the blood vessels dilate, hands and lips tremble and the person sweats.
These changes take place through two important regions in the brain called
(a) limbic system and
(b) Hypothalamus - (A part of the brain that lies above the pituitary gland and regulates many body functions. Through the pituitary gland the hypothalamus affects the activities of the thyroid, pancreas, parathyroid, adrenals and sex glands. It is involved with the control of body temperature, sexual functions, weight, fluid balance and blood pressure).

These lie in the centre of the brain. When the emotion begins to subside all these changes also subside.
Men of higher capabilities are beyond these emotions. However, emotions like anger, fear, greed etc., are detrimental to health. They may lead to psycho-functional disorders like peptic ulcer, high blood pressure, headache etc.
When any emotional disturbance occurs in the brain chemicals known as neuro-transmitters are produced and stimulate them to various responses. If these chemicals get utilized in the process, no harm is produced. On the contrary, if these emotions are suppressed these chemicals do not get destroyed and persist in their action. They lead to illness and psychosomatic disorders.

How music helps in such situations?

Any stimulus or situation that ensures tranquility inside the brain leads to the optimum functions and thereby good health and happiness are achieved. When one is engrossed in music, he reaches pinnacle of concentration and his mind and brain attain equilibrium.

Though this process mainly helps in music therapy, mild music emanating from such ragas like Nilambari, Desh, Kapi, Dwijavanti (not the Sahana soaked one but pure Dikshitar ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“s version) etc. if they are played particularly at the time children are about to go to bed and morning ragas when they are about rise up in the morning. It would also work wonders when they are played mildly while they are asleep.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 11 Sep 2009, 05:02

Listening to music during pregnancy helps in the child to have interest, IMHO.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Sep 2009, 08:43

Where are we going from here? I am lost.
The benefits of music are numerous. We all agree on that.
How the parents and others can introduce the youth to CM and encourage them in developing an interest in music without eliciting the opposite results is what I think this thread is about.
I once went in search of a place. Could not find it at all. The street name and the name plates on many buildings were covered with notices. I am not keen on doing the same all over again. Moreover, I have said enough. Instead , I should move on and see if I can encourage in any way the youth that I encounter into listening to divine music...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Sep 2009, 10:30

rasikaranjan wrote:I would like to share with you the opinion given by Dr. B. Ramamurthy, the world renowned neuro-surgeon who did some research on the subject.

Why? What does it have to do with the thread?

Have you ever heard the saying, preaching to the converted? I doubt that there is any member of this forum who is not aware of the benefits of listening to music, and, apart from those who have a personal desire to research the mechanism by which it happens, for their own interest, most of us really don't care what the limbic system and the hypothalmus get up to, any more than knowing the mechanism of the digestive enzymes enhances the flavour of our food.

Nobody needs a scientist to tell them that love exists.

rasikaranjan; if you really feel that any of this is relevant and useful, then stop posting it here and get out on the street and start telling it to some youngsters. You think your limbic system and hypothalmus are going to matter to youth? I think not.

rajesh_rs · Post by **rajesh_rs** » 11 Sep 2009, 11:29

A major turn off for those in science or engineering like I am, is the pseudoscience associated with some aspects of musico-religious research. By pseudoscience, I mean deductions and inferences that seek to justify one's liking for Carnatic music or religion or both using science. I see this disturbing trend amongst those who consider themselves inquisitive enough to accept scientific explanation and artistic enough to consider the benefits of music but too lazy to do pertinent research to prove his/her tall claims. It is fine to consider that one's religious worldview may affect the way one sees Carnatic music and how it affects people but this is like a placebo in most cases, tending to cure ills which the people who contracted them are capable of curing themselves, owing to their body's immunities and state of balance or harmony. The best that Carnatic music (or indeed any music) can do is to influence how the brain waves are affected and thereby have a direct effect on the mental state we associate with music. But this is something we already know - that music is meant to relax you.

On a lighter note, there's a common Tamil phrase that sums this up : "Aarayakkoodadhu, anubhavikkanom" [:D]

So, folks - youth and those of us not so young anymore - enjoy yourselves by immersing yourselves in the beauty of music.

rasikaranjan · Post by **rasikaranjan** » 11 Sep 2009, 12:58

I believe the forum is to exchange views as equals by educated and enlightened persons. Using expressions such as "go the to street and preach the youth"

johnlovescm · Post by **johnlovescm** » 11 Sep 2009, 13:09

nick H wrote:rasikaranjan; if you really feel that any of this is relevant and useful, then stop posting it here and get out on the street and start telling it to some youngsters. You think your limbic system and hypothalmus are going to matter to youth? I think not.

unwarranted response!

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 11 Sep 2009, 15:50

Are there anyone here who do not like Carnatic Music? I suppose not.

So what Nick was saying is that there is no use in "preaching to the converted", and it is also equally unlikely that the medicinal benifits of music or the science behind it (even if they are true) are not likely to draw youth to CM, because that is not what youth may be interested in.

Arasi has also opined that we are probably drifting away from the original topic. The topic is not about the benifits of music, but to discuss why most youth shun CM and how to reverse the trend.

Maybe the way Nick said it was blunt, but the message is that we do not need the views of neurosurgeons since we are not looking at why music should matter to us, but how to make it matter to others.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Sep 2009, 15:55

Thank you skris!

But I do not think my contributions to this thread, in general, have been appreciated, so I'll leave it alone now

.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Sep 2009, 19:55

Nick, I do not understand why you chose to go blunt on rasikaranjan. This entire rasikas.org at some level can be termed 'preaching to the converted'. Meaning, most of the advocacy posts can be put down by using that phrase. He was quoting some info about the benefits of CM. Not that I necessarily believe in that nor I think youth will relate to that but why use a personal assessment of the content to trash the relevancy of his post in this thread? Of course, you can always debate or question the merits of the ideas presented. May be I do not understand what ticked you off.

johnlovescm · Post by **johnlovescm** » 11 Sep 2009, 20:17

If relevancy to a particular topic of discussion is the issue, I am afraid, more than 50% of the the threads under discussion will not qualify. Take the MSG concert for example, more than the concert the review of SVK and his skills are being discussed and most of these grows into a hanuman tail.
Some of the comments are decent, some very raw and blunt, if I may call it that way.
If one thinks that a post made is irrelevant, I guess the best way is to let the poster know it or thru the moderators.
These kind of blunt replies will further agrevate the sentiments of the poster and will lead to meaningless discussion. I have even noted cases where the moderators have crossed boundaries or trying to shoot the poster, not trying to rake a contraversy here and I do not intend to quote any!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Sep 2009, 21:00

>I have even noted cases where the moderators have crossed boundaries

What? I thought they are infallible

( anyway let us not go to that topic in this thread )

BTW, I am not saying one should not call out if a post is irrelevant to the thread. There are unrelated posts, related posts and tangentially related posts

But the disagreement on the content of a post should not be the main criteria to decide the relevancy, that is all.

In some cases, I do acknowledge there are gray areas and we should exercise our own individual judgments there. I personally tend to err on the side of inclusion in such cases.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Sep 2009, 00:19

Let me finish my posts on this thread by simply explaining that I feel we are knocking our heads against the wall --- in fact, not even the same wall.

For any misunderstanding, I am sorry. For any upset, I am sorry.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 12 Sep 2009, 00:29

We are good in unsolicited advices to the world how to live life and that is very discomforting to many

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Sep 2009, 00:29

Nick: Understood. I am actually on the same wavelength as you are, on that topic. My original interest in participating in this thread is really not to make youth listen to CM but rather understand if there is any statistically meaningful 'shunning' by youth compared to the general population and if so try to understand why. And not to change them through some mass reconditioning process

gn.sn42 and I left went at it from that perspective and left it unresolved. Someone has to report back if there is approx. 20% young people on the average in CM concerts.

I fully realize almost everyone in this thread took the thread objective to be, how to make more youth listen to CM. The OP also later expressed that was his intention in starting the thread.

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 15 Sep 2009, 09:26

I wonder why no one has asked "why do youth need to appreciate CM over other forms of music in the first place?" Youth have their place in CM, sure but are they any yardstick to measure the success of CM by? If they shun CM, so what? I know of so many people who never heard a single note of CM through their formative years now have become quite ardent rasikas. I am sure the converse is also true. Kids who were force fed CM grew up shunning it completely. Why not ask a much more valid question, why do so many old people think they are the bastions of culture and civilisation, and that all youth are decadent wastrels?

Do we need to 'force feed' youth with CM hoping that they would listen to it, or would you rather they discover the music for themselves when they are older?

Let's look things in perspective, shall we.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 Sep 2009, 10:28

All the things you say--
No need to force feed
Hope they will listen to it someday,
discovering it on their own--

Just provide the right climate for that, I like to add.
I have been saying this all along.
Hope they listen to it when a young person says it, for a change.
Wishing you luck!

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 15 Sep 2009, 10:48

bala747
To your question 'why do so many old people think they are the bastions of culture and civilization, and that all youth are decadent wastrels?ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢ the answer lies in the very idea and origin of this thread. Of the very survival of the art form and its progress and continued growth, with vitality, only youth taking to the art form in greater numbers will ensure the success in achieving the goal and objectives. The developments in the recent past, confirms that. When Great Maestros/Maestros/Vidwans and Vidushis were either lost or past their prime of creative performances or age and when young musicians were not coming up with serious commitment and dedication, there was genuine anxiety about the progress of CM art form. Thanks to youth taking up the music with great commitment and dedication, we have now young and not so young maestros, enthralling the CM rasikas. These young maestros have proven the fact that CM art form will continue to progress and grow and immortal. All the rasikas who want youth, who 'shun' the IM/CM to be given genuine opportunity to experience and later enjoy the CM, want more of this recent success, continue to happen, uninterruptedly.
No intention or designs to 'force feed', but to give real time opportunities and exposure, to create the interest, taste, experiences, total enjoyment and satisfaction to the youth, in greater numbers.
But your question rightly/conversely brings out another problem and challenge of making IM/CM to appeal to all those who are not youth. When both things happen, together, IM/CM truly becomes music for the masses, the ultimate goal and objective.

munirao2001

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 16 Sep 2009, 07:00

I was simply pointing out that people always blame the youth for the decline of any art form and that youth "shunning" carnatic music is a problem that must be addressed, when it is simply a matter of society changing and with it, youth. IF carnatic music is being shunned (and from what I am seeing that is hardly the case), then the problem is not with the youth but with society in general. It simply means that society in general is "shunning" CM except for a few, and since the best people to blame for the decline of the art form is "youth" (because they are the easiest, most vulnerable targets), they get the rap.

I would disagree with you on making IM/CM the "music for the masses" but that's another post on another thread for another day.