Value of tradition & legacy

[Shivadasan]

The following two interviews give an interesting insight into traditions of Indian music

R.K. Srikantan interview
http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/fr/200 ... 940300.htm

Ustad Rahim Fahimuddin Dagar interview
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2009/09/11/stor ... 080200.htm

[isramesh]

Shivadasan ji, Thanks for posting these two wonderful interviews. Sri Dagar's explanation of religion and music might answer many of the discussions that have been going on in the forum elsewhere.

[arasi]

Yes, as he says, differences in religion do not matter when it comes to music. Music itself is a way of upAsanA.

[bilahari]

Great interviews, and thank you, Shivadasan. I am, however, a bit confused about Sri RKS talking about preserving music in its "original" state, and he uses the vedas as an example. I have been under the impression that our conceptions of ragas, compositions (from sahitya to tala) have all been evolving over the ages and as such, it is highly challenging to pinpoint the original state of each article of our music and attempt to protect it. For instance, I have read in this forum that tODi as we sing it nowadays is very different from even the tODi from early 20th C, where flat notes were given more prominence. I am also curious about Sri RKS's declarations that varnams should only be sung at the beginning of the concert, mangaLam cannout be sung with alapana, etc. He does not state any particular reason for holding such opinions, other than a most ambiguous reference to "legacy" and "sampradaya". Can anyone shed more light on his convictions?

[srinivasrgvn]

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[semmu86]

i think this is another thread all set to grow like anjaneyar vaal ..

[arasi]

And a twisted one at that

Bilahari,
I did not comment on RKS because as I said elsewhere, I do not agree with all that he has said here. My respect for him and his music is immense which does not mean I have to go along with all his views. As you see it too--we have to keep tradition intact but don't have tomake a bonsai out of it. Allow it room to grow. Luckily, that's what has happened so far and that's the reason CM is still healthy today, renewing itself in creative ways without damaging the amazing structure of it.

[srkris]

If the tradition is to be left intact, probably we are into a period of neo-classical renaissance where everyone experiments with the classical base to make it something different from what it has been known to be in the past.

Why do we not then call this as neo-carnatic music instead of offending people to whom "pure-classical music" is something that belongs to the past (an old-world form of music which many musicians of today are accused of tampering with).

[arasi]

Not a bad idea. Will stop the number of arguments which arise unnecessarily. Yet, what is it that makes the difference? A mere word? When changes WERE happening in the past so many years, there were those who frowned upon them, not knowing that dacades later the ones who made changes were going to be lauded and applauded. Then one may ask: is it typical of our culture not to recognize certain things which are worth trying and succeeding in at the time when they happen, but only much later? As in--sing praises of them after they are gone?
So, what do we call AriyakkuDi, MMI (and others)? Did they not step away from the norm?

[srkris]

The problem comes when the changes are not accepted by all.

Did Ariyakudi's generation face the same kind of opposition? Did their older peers chide them for straying into inadmissible domains?

I feel the changes we see today are not gradual, they are perhaps sudden enough as to seem to some people as breaks from tradition.

[arasi]

True. but the times are not the same! We are all on the fast lane which was not so with them. So, changes were slow in coming. We exchange ideas in split seconds, wherever in the world we are--it's all at our fingertips. It is the same for the musicians too. Besides, they are creative, like MMI and several others of those times.
In Ariyakkudi's days, how many HM musicians came to Chennai? How many had he heard? He sang durbAri, hamIr kalyANi and other rAgams and yes, was the pioneer of the concert format. MMI, in spite of his impressive guru (but HMB was experimental too!) and his great voice and bhAvam, did get jeers from some listeners for his manOdharmam and tara la lAs. That didn't stop other rasikAs from going to his concerts...

[annamalai]

While I understand that folks need not concur with "all" the viewpoints of RKS, there has
to be some synergy with a majority of his viewpoints. Especially if a person claims to be
a fan of RKS music.

To quote a theorem of my friend " The man and the music are not separable".
In other words, the personality comes out clearly in their the music.
Vijaya Siva has also talked about this in one of his interviews.

RKS's music is a summation of his views.

Most folks seem to like RKS's music; However, here are some of the points he has raised.

1. YesterEra music (Musiri, Ariyakudi, Chembai, ...) is better that what we hear today - ouch
2. RTPs should not be sung in minor ragas
3. No Varnams in the middle of a concert
4. Long ragamalika swaras should not be sung after R, N of big krithis
6. Devarnamas should not be tuned in modern ragas

[srikant1987]

1. OUCH! And I also feel he's looking only at the vocalists, as it's too easy to.
2. Makes sense.
3. WHY? Because Ariyakudi sang them in the beginning?
4. Makes sense.
6. (?!) Makes sense.

[Shivadasan]

Srkris wrote,
"Why do we not then call this as neo-carnatic music instead of offending people to whom ‘pure-classical music’ is something that belongs to the past (an old-world form of music which many musicians of today are accused of tampering with)."

[Rasika911]

RKS has to be given a national award for saying this particular opinion:

It is quite funny when you hear these days ‘O Ranga Sayee’ being complemented with a 43-suite ragamalika after a detailed niraval in the charanam. It is the height of lunacy. The kriti by itself is a grand one. Why all this unnecessary gimmicks?

I have never seen anyone sing ragamalika swarams for O Rangasayee or for any krithi main "yet".....and thank god for that

Great interviews, and thank you, Shivadasan. I am, however, a bit confused about Sri RKS talking about preserving music in its "original" state, and he uses the vedas as an example. I have been under the impression that our conceptions of ragas, compositions (from sahitya to tala) have all been evolving over the ages and as such, it is highly challenging to pinpoint the original state of each article of our music and attempt to protect it. For instance, I have read in this forum that tODi as we sing it nowadays is very different from even the tODi from early 20th C, where flat notes were given more prominence. I am also curious about Sri RKS's declarations that varnams should only be sung at the beginning of the concert, mangaLam cannout be sung with alapana, etc. He does not state any particular reason for holding such opinions, other than a most ambiguous reference to "legacy" and "sampradaya". Can anyone shed more light on his convictions?

I too would have liked to have seen some reasons to back up the statements.

I have to agree with him on his comment about singing hindustani ragams. The last few rtp's i have seen have been in bhageshri, jujavanthi, madhuvanthi and darabri kannada. Im dying to hear a good begada or surruti live.

1. OUCH! And I also feel he's looking only at the vocalists, as it's too easy to.
2. Makes sense.
3. WHY? Because Ariyakudi sang them in the beginning?
4. Makes sense.
6. (?!) Makes sense.

We all have to keep in mind that these are not his exact words and what we are discussing is actually second hand information given to us by the journalist.

[Rasika911]

This statement was also very interesting:
"sangathis and vinyasas are not permitted in devar namas. " I didnt know that...all devanamas ive heard, while they arent exactly heavy compositions, have a couple of decorative sangathis.

[rajeshnat]

All the cribs of RKS are pointing to only main cause. The concerts are getting shorter, nowadays with 2 hours as the norm with a 15 minute tani in that, the performers take up smaller or medium scoped ragas and present it as RTP.

BTW on ragamaligas in well established krithis like o rangasAyee , for all that I know the first musician to bring in ragamaliga swaras in a main kriti was madurai mani. Madurai mani sang intha sowkhya with ragamAliga swaras . The key is if the musicians exhaust all the sangathis in that particular raga of main and then dwelve into ragamaliga it is fine , as that particular day they do that as they dont have time to sing an RTP. I loved mmi's inta sowkhya with ragamAliga, I am sure RKS would have liked that(who can say I dont like mmi) though he would not prefer that to be repeated.

Once about few years before for tAye yashOdA in tOdi , suryaprakash exhaustively sang neraval for kAlinil silambu in todi only and then quickly jumped for 2-3 minutes each in malayamArutham , behAg and kApi. He gave full justice to todi and then only supplemented with three rAgas. He also carried short avarthanam swaras in rAgamAliga and then into tOdi, where todi swaras were also exhausted. (you can see this posting reference in suryaprakash thread), the key is he tried it once and it clicked . But till now he has not tried it second time preferring to pass this kind of attempt.

In short musicians of past or present have to experiment and test waters based on that days manodharmam, as long it is classical it is fine, if they overdo it then they have to watch out as the rasikas may brand them non traditional. So right level of tradition and few well calculated new attempts are also welcome.

BTW which other musicians have tried ragamaliga for main krithis, (not talking about occassional shruthi bedham during neraval and swaras), I only know mmi and suryaprakash having done that? Any more references of that kind is welcome and well appreciated...

[Nick H]

I don't really want to interupt the interesting controversies raised by the RKS interview, but do want to mention that I found the Ustad Rahim Fahimuddin Dagar interview powerful and profound. It is a pity it is lost in the traditional CM-tradition discussion!

[rajeshnat]

I have never seen anyone sing ragamalika swarams for O Rangasayee or for any krithi main "yet".....and thank god for that

I am not disclosing them but I think regular concert-goers will definitely know who sings a 43-suite ragamalika for RTPs, etc. which is really unnecessary! The artiste leads you on a wild goose chase where it is most difficult to identify the ragas, as they are being sung only for 1 avarthanam!

srinivasrgvn,
RKS is not talking about rtp rAgamAliga , but rAgamAliga's that follow for a main krithi like o rangasayee. In the article he says " It is quite funny when you hear these days ‘O Ranga Sayee’ being complemented with a 43-suite ragamalika after a detailed niraval in the charanam. "

[knandago2001]

"At the end of the day, controversies, contradictions and bones of contention do not matter as it is the mool siddhant of music which is paramount in my mind since it lives forever whereas these debates die out with people"

[srinivasrgvn]

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[Rasika911]

I am not disclosing them but I think regular concert-goers will definitely know who sings a 43-suite ragamalika for RTPs, etc. which is really unnecessary! The artiste leads you on a wild goose chase where it is most difficult to identify the ragas, as they are being sung only for 1 avarthanam!

srinivasrgvn,
RKS is not talking about rtp rAgamAliga , but rAgamAliga's that follow for a main krithi like o rangasayee. In the article he says " It is quite funny when you hear these days ‘O Ranga Sayee’ being complemented with a 43-suite ragamalika after a detailed niraval in the charanam. "

That is why I have used 'etc.' after RTPs! I have heard that particular artiste render ragamalika swarams after main songs also! Needless to say, I have heard many do that!

I think he accepts singing ragamalika swarams for rtp's but does not approve of them being sung for O Rangasayee, Etavunara, Kadunavariki or a Chakkani Raja. What i was saying is that i have never heard the latter being done and if artists are doing it i wouldnt mind knowing who it is

[arasi]

While this discussion is bringing out perspectives of rasikAs which are interesting, we should not forget what rasika911 says. What we read is only what the reporter heard it as. They are not not necessarily the exact words and thoughts of RKS. I do not know what RKS himself felt on reading this! Often, the speakers exclaim: I did not mean it that way, but that is how it sounded?

The tamizh saying for pongal (make it New Year too, in the universal sense!): pazhaiyana kazhidalum, pudiyana pugudalum--which means, clean up the house and replenish it with new. No, should not be taken literally! Prune the old tree and nourish it so that you can allow for new growth. No, one does not dig up the orchard and plant new saplings which in the CM sense means throw out the old music and usher in a new CM! Heavens, no! Keep the venerable old edifice well and alive by renewing it. When attempts are made in the name of newness where CM loses its identity completely, then it is like some of our old architectural treasures which get renovated with garish or inappropriate features which is NOT preserving. I would not say at all that a similar thing is happening today in CM.

As for the views which do not tolerate any obscure rAgam being sung as an RTP, I wonder. Some who see western classical music only from the rAgam point of view say: but for SankarAbharaNam, what do they have? By the same token, if we restrict RTPs to bhairavi, kAmbhOji and a few other rAgams, it means RTP is going to have a restricted existence too.
We also have this interest at all times in our minds: how are we going to make CM interesting enough for the young so that it stays well and nourished. As humans, we pay more attention to a disadvanced child in the family and do everything to bring out the best in him. In CM, I suppose the same thing applies to unknown rAgams.
I just love to listen to RKS--whether he sings just sAvEri for two hours or a tukkaDa in tilang for five minutes. I don't think he is as rigid in his views either as he comes across in this interview. His son and daughter, besides being well versed in CM, also excel in singing lighter music. RKS as a human being, is anything but rigid. He is a calm and serene man, a nAdOpAsaka...
An aside: G.Ravikaran, fellow forumite, is a student of both RKS and TMK!

[arasi]

Are there any other reactions to the Dagar interview? I think it is worth reading because when many associate CM with divinity, what he says makes sense: to give music its due by believing that it has its own divine qualities.
In a way, it's not music which has gone in search of religions at any time. It is religions which have sought music and have found richer expression in it. I hope my statement does not make me appear as if I'm a non-believer to those who tend to see just pros or cons in everything and ignore the rest of it:)

[knandago2001]

Other articles that offer interesting perspectives on tradition and legacy in music

K.V.Narayanaswami’s Presidential address at the MA (1986)
http://www.narada.org/kvn/address.html

Semmangudi looks back - at 90! (1998)
http://www.thehindu.com/fline/fl1522/15220650.htm

Reclaiming lost music legacy (2004)
http://www.hindu.com/lf/2004/11/25/stor ... 240200.htm

Carnatic music - A great survivor!! (2006)
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?232622

Smt. Pratibha Devisingh Patil "Art cannot exist in isolation. People must become admirers and patrons of arts."

[annamalai]

Good discussion. Some points. I think this Hindu transcription of interview is as good as it gets.

1. Old vs New - last week, I was listening to a nice radio program on Nadaswaram music compered by Prof. R. Visweswaran (Veena). He was talking about the salient points of Nadaswaram music and played some of the recordings of maestros (TNR - thodi, Karaikurchi - Bhairavam, ....). He played a recording of NachiyarKoil .... rendering Orajoopu. That rendition was mesmerizing. Nadaswaram sounded was almost like flute. Such was the control over the instrument.

IMHO, there is NO nadaswaram artist today, who can play at the level of these past era Vidwans.


4. Ragamalika swaras for Krithis - This point might require further elaboration.

My interpretation is: After detailed Kamboji alapana, rendition of a big Krithi like O Rangasayee, Neraval and Swarams in Kamboji would be sufficient. Ragamalika can be sung at other places such as Slokams or thukkada pieces.

MMI example may not be appropriate. MMI is probably one of most sincere musicians or Nadopasaka. His ragamalika swaras were much awaited by rasikas. So, instead of singing Pallavi and ragamalika due to concert time limitations, he must have sung ragamalika. BTW, MMI does not sing nereval for Kamalamba Navavarna krithis and only a couple of round swaras.

5. Sangathis for Devarnamas - I agree with him on this point. The Bakthi movement (not the concert aspect) Purandhara dasa compositions should be taken in to account.

[lifeisasong]

I felt sad that Ustadji felt the need to say this:
"Before talking of anything else, I want to say that the Dhrupad Society is engaged in preserving Hindu culture â€â€Â

[srkris]

I feel that there are some Hindus in India who do not think traditions are worth caring for unless they are specifically defined as Hindu (and this has something to do with the politics of the last two decades or so). I may be wrong, but I feel as if Ustadji is reacting to this tendency.

There is a big difference between persian traditions (which have fused with classical indian music to form Hindustani music) and muslim traditions, one cannot be mistaken for the other. Persian music and Indian music already had many common links before the advent of Islam in either Persia or India.

Perhaps i am wrong but I dont think of dhrupad as muslim music, probably qawwali is muslim but not dhrupad.

Not that it would be bad to have muslim influences too

[thenpaanan]

Most folks seem to like RKS's music; However, here are some of the points he has raised.

1. YesterEra music (Musiri, Ariyakudi, Chembai, ...) is better that what we hear today - ouch

A friend of mine who is an authority on such matters told me once that some time in early 40s or 50s, some committee or the other in the Music Academy passed a resolution that "the quality of Carnatic music [as evidenced by contemporary performers] has dropped... and steps must be taken to restore its pristine greatness."

This would have been the generation before RKS, so if all such comments are taken at face value, we have been witness to a steady decline in quality of CM for heaven knows how long and we are not even aware!

I wonder that, if the Music Academy existed during Tyagaraja's time, they would still have passed such a resolution then, complaining about musicians "abandoning the rich legacy of intricate pallavis and steady-gait tAna varNams for which we are justly famous" and resorting instead to "superficial and short _kirtanas_, making the art accessible and common and almost vulgar" and especially "_inventing_ new ragas that don't need to be invented, when our forefathers have given us such a rich set of ragas as it is, with a highly deplorable partiality for _madhayamakala_...." The introduction of foreign instruments such as the fiddle must have been totally against the grain causing many a senior vocalist in the committee to ask "what is the need for melodic accompaniment in a concert? Surely only to mask the deficiencies of mediocre vocalists...."

-Then Paanan

[Nick H]

That is a lovely post. Brilliant

And I have a theory (not speaking of any person or artist, but in general), that it really is traditional, in Carnatic music, not only to talk this way, but to do so while actually innovating. It is like a mantra, something that must be repeated, many, many times; the great value of tradition; the unalterable face of tradition; we must not tamper with what we have been given.

... which is a pity, as it takes away from the actual, great and wonderful value of tradition!

[bala747]

Here is my understanding of it all:

1) We must understand that RKS is old. This is quite natural. Every old person who has heard a lot of people like ariyakudi,musiri and chembai will only like them! We will also say the same in the future. After 50 years, we will tell the younger generation - "The quality of music has degraded so badly! As far as I know, there is nobody today to even compare with yester year masters like TMK and Sanjay Subramanyam!"

I find this point of view interesting because when I first started posting in fora, I was always of the opinion that present artistes were better. I remember having long drawn out arguments with different members of the old sangeetham.com forum about this. Today my view is slightly more nuanced, that while I accept that present day artistes have gone ahead of yesteryear masters in some aspects, the fact remains that artistes like SSI, GNB etc set the standards for today's artistes. Unless today's artistes do something really groundbreaking, they will not be remembered as fondly as those of yesteryear. Another problem today is the sheer quantity of music available. 60 years ago the only way to listen to MMI was to turn up at a concert he was performing in. Gramophones were a luxury, and so were radios (and even then you got to hear at the most an hour of the artiste). Nowadays with so much of it available so freely that the value of each piece is lost. My grandad used to treasure his five or six GNB concerts far more than gold, but now they are so commonly available that their individual worth is far diminished. If that is the fate of GNB and SSI imagine what will happen to artistes like Sanjay or TMK who have far more recordings available in far more easier ways. I can imagine them flooding the "market" in about 20 years. Would anyone even remember them? I doubt it. Add this to the fact that yesteryear artistes focussed on their strengths, and hence developed certain reputations, e.g. GNB for brigha laden alapanas, MMI for swaras, etc and 'trademark' compositions. But today there is very little to differentiate Sanjay from TMK from Unnikrishnan from Sowmya. Are there any pieces that only Sanjay can be said to render them best, like Eppo Varuvaro of MMI or Himagiri Thanaye of GNB? Do any of us feel so strongly for any of their music like our fathers/grandfathers felt for MMI or GNB? Is there any aspect of music that we can say one is clearly good in while another is good in another? I doubt it. They are all different shades of "good".
My grandad idolised GNB above all, my granduncle, SSI (and never did the twain see eye to eye). He would listen to the same Sanmukhapriya RTP again and again till the tape wore off. Does anyone feel that way about Sanjay or TMK today? If not then how can they be remembered so fondly in the next few generations? Only TNS today commands that sort of a fervour in his rasikas but he's also of a previous generation.

2) I have to agree with this. Although all ragas have potential, some ragas are just not destined to be sung for RTP! We must remember that 'Survival of the Fittest' matters here! Only some ragas have survived and they will continue to flourish! CM has no space to accommodate every kannadabangala and rasaali!!(strictly for RTP alone)

Exactly. I would take it even further and claim that the RTP itself is being treated like a joke, forget about the raga it is sung in! The RTP itself, which was once the highlight of the concert and the piece de resistance, now is stuck in as an afterthought. This is far worse than just attempting an RTP in a raga with "limited scope", but the point is valid. If an RTP is sung it must be worth singing, which means the raga must be one that can be elaborated for at least 20 minutes without sounding repetitive.

3) This is just a custom, I think. And, I think we just have to accept customs and move on in life! If you start questioning, you can't end a session! You can keep asking questions like "Why do singers start with a piece on Lord Ganesha?" or "Why do we end with a mangalam?" or "Why are jAvalis sung at the end of the concert?" or "Why shouldn't rEvathi be sung for RTP?"!

Actually it's not a given that javalis are sung at the end. The Brinda Mukta school pretty much put javalis and padams as the central pieces of many a concert. But then again these are exceptions. As for the Revathi RTP, Balamurali tried it, I didn't like it. If BMK couldn't pull it off, I doubt anyone else can.

4) Yes, definitely makes sense! Why the gimmicks after such an exhaustive elaboration? It is like eating chillies after a good dose of pepper rasam!

I agree with this wholeheartedly too. When GNB sang ragamalikas in RTPs he kept them short and simple and he never, ever let the ragamalikas overshadow the main raga, even at the risk of appearing like he didn't know the raga well to the uninitiated (listen to his Behag part of the 1963 Sanmukhapriya RTP). Nowadays gimmicks like ragamalika swaras have overshadowed the main raga itself and one hears about two avarthanas of swaras in the main raga followed by 10 boring avartanas of the same old Sindhubhairavi and Behaug that every singer since MMI has sung for the past 50 years.

[srinivasrgvn]

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[coolkapali]

Rasikas, let me explain my thougts here. I see a mixed reaction in this thread, one section is the hard core pure Karnatik rasikas , the other side is a bit more lenient. While a lot of mud is being thrown at artistes for singing ragamalikas with 42 ragams etc, i wish all of us will sit back and think what leads to this. THE RASIKAS , all of us , are solely responsible for this. We have this saddistic pleasure in enjoying or enduring a concert and criticise at the slightest opportunity, forgetting that we lay the seeds for all this. It is our turn out in large numbers that decide which artist makes it to the helm of things. It is our applause that drives them to sing in a particular way. And again its our lack of interest or vidwat or whatever else that has demotivated some of the True Vidwans. Tanjore S Kalyanaraman, Ramnad Krishnan, MD Ramanathan etc comes to my mind. How many of us will sit back and listen to an MDR style rendition? I am taking names here just to prove a point.
I will never blame Aruna Sairam for rendering Abhangs , Sudha Raghunathan for her innumerable Thukadas taking the centre stage, Ranjani Gayathri again for their abhangs, TM Krishna for singing Bhairavi Varnam as main and singing along with Bombay Jayashri , Sanjay for staying at a note for a long time merely for the sake of applause, Madurai TN Seshagopal for singing one avarthanam swaram ragamalikas, Umayalpuram Sivaraman for accompanying Fashion shows, end of the day we have made them what they are. And i am not for a moment taking away any credit as to their vidwat or proficiency. They are PERFORMERS who want to make sure that they earn their bread and keep people happy.

As i have always maintained singing Athmarthama for the sake of one's own artistic thirst will NEVER EVER attract the mass, and correct me if i am wrong, the minority who want real pure Karnatik music , do nothing more than merely talking about the degradation of music. Why dont they make financial arrangements for musicians who have taken up this praise worthy mission and never compromised on the art form's purity. I am more than sure that any artiste will love to be soaked in Bhava rich music if at least his basic needs are met. Can any one of us organize a concert, tell the main artist that he must perform in the most orthodox manner, and also pay him well????? We will not dare to even think of it apprehending the small audience, ticket sales, sponsorship etc.

My conclusion: There is no conclusion to this.

[srikant1987]

@ coolkapali

What about M S Subbulakshmi?

[Purist]

Well said coolkapali. I recollect Semmangudi in a concert in late sixties after a jet speed electrifying swaram vinyasam saying to the violnist 'Aduchu Thallu , saukhyam yarakku venam' ( Bang it, who cares
for saukhyam ). If this was 30 or 40 years back (and that too from the mouth of a legend) it makes you wonder what has changed? It was ,It is and It will.

Singing Atmarthama is not that easy. It's not a product of practice but one of experience.
There are a few in the current genre who can deliver this kind of music but unfortunately stray
out often for the sake of popularity or meeting the demands of a wider band of rasikas.

[bala747]

coolkapali (I would love to know the origin of that nick! Cool Skull bearer?),

Also it must be mentioned that a lot of times artistes think that "This is all this audience can appreciate" and dumb things down. If they don't think that way, the organisers tell them to "sing fast pieces or the audience will fall asleep!"

Good use of the example of T Kalyanaraman and MDR. My granduncle (who introduced me to his music) would always say that his concerts in Bombay, at first a 100 people will turn up, after the second item, 75 would leave and the remaining 25 will sit through the entire concert, and get labelled as elitist snobs by everyone else .

Finally it must be remembered, Ariyakudi was pilloried by the very same "purists" of his era for "diluting carnatic music" by coming up with the kacheri format. But I guess the fear now is, in the interest of pleasing the audience, some of the core fundamentals of our music are being shaken. How real this situation is, I do not know apart from the decline of the Ragam Thanam Pallavi but the fear is there.

[munirao2001]

coolkapali
You have very correctly and rightly pointed out the lack of real support of the rasikas , to all those artists, who are offering uncompromisingly, CM sticking to the ideals and swimming against the current.
I will be extremely happy, if rasikas commit first to attend the concerts of all such artists, in great numbers-when they are given very rare opportunities to perform, in great numbers. This is minimal, but vital support they badly need.
munirao2001

[johnlovescm]

..

[johnlovescm]

Rasikas, let me explain my thougts here. I see a mixed reaction in this thread, one section is the hard core pure Karnatik rasikas , the other side is a bit more lenient. While a lot of mud is being thrown at artistes for singing ragamalikas with 42 ragams etc, i wish all of us will sit back and think what leads to this. THE RASIKAS , all of us , are solely responsible for this. We have this saddistic pleasure in enjoying or enduring a concert and criticise at the slightest opportunity, forgetting that we lay the seeds for all this. It is our turn out in large numbers that decide which artist makes it to the helm of things. It is our applause that drives them to sing in a particular way. And again its our lack of interest or vidwat or whatever else that has demotivated some of the True Vidwans. Tanjore S Kalyanaraman, Ramnad Krishnan, MD Ramanathan etc comes to my mind. How many of us will sit back and listen to an MDR style rendition? I am taking names here just to prove a point.
I will never blame Aruna Sairam for rendering Abhangs , Sudha Raghunathan for her innumerable Thukadas taking the centre stage, Ranjani Gayathri again for their abhangs, TM Krishna for singing Bhairavi Varnam as main and singing along with Bombay Jayashri , Sanjay for staying at a note for a long time merely for the sake of applause, Madurai TN Seshagopal for singing one avarthanam swaram ragamalikas, Umayalpuram Sivaraman for accompanying Fashion shows, end of the day we have made them what they are. And i am not for a moment taking away any credit as to their vidwat or proficiency. They are PERFORMERS who want to make sure that they earn their bread and keep people happy.

As i have always maintained singing Athmarthama for the sake of one's own artistic thirst will NEVER EVER attract the mass, and correct me if i am wrong, the minority who want real pure Karnatik music , do nothing more than merely talking about the degradation of music. Why dont they make financial arrangements for musicians who have taken up this praise worthy mission and never compromised on the art form's purity. I am more than sure that any artiste will love to be soaked in Bhava rich music if at least his basic needs are met. Can any one of us organize a concert, tell the main artist that he must perform in the most orthodox manner, and also pay him well????? We will not dare to even think of it apprehending the small audience, ticket sales, sponsorship etc.


My conclusion: There is no conclusion to this.

Very apt analysis

Simple logic
Great artists are not crowd pullers
Crowd pullers are not great artists.

People flocking to the so called popular artists - objective is I have attended a concert and also exhibit their wardrobe and have social meetings.

Take some of the recent times good artists like Vijay Siva or a Suryaprakash - hall is hardly half full.

[munirao2001]

Rasika911
On Devaranamas of Dasas, they are essentially word oriented-akshara pradhana and are set in simple tunes and talas. They were composed to convey the essentials of Bhakthi marga for mukthi, in simple language for the easy understanding and in traditional varna mettus for singing by the community. Late Sandhyavandanam Srinivasa Rao had told that the compositions are like 'Sysava sthithi'- like a child, radiant and beutiful, without the sarotorial appendages and ornaments. Sangathi ornamentations are, unnecessary. With fairly good musical insights gained through learning the trinity compositions, any line can be loaded with sangathi ornamentations! But, what you get is not the dasa composition(s), only the performer's music. We have only few hundred dasa compositions, in original and pure form, in karna parampara of dasas, living and singing. Great Maestro and legend, MSS Amma, learnt dasa compositions from SSRao and sang dasara padams only in traditional varna mettu form. They were immensely popular.
Just listen to the popular devaranama on Lakshmi "Enu Dhanyalo-Todi-Purandara Dasa" in traditional varna mettu and to the version of Shri Vidyabhushana(folk tune-boat song), to understand truly, the advice of the vetern Shri RKS.
munirao2001

[coolkapali]

Bala,
Just picked it up at random....it was a nick used by one of the radio jockeys...

[bala747]

Great artists are not always crowd pullers, agree to an extent..
But crowd pullers not great artists? disagree to an extent.. Both arguments are a bit oversimplified

I think there are some artistes who do not compromise on their music and their principles on what constitutes classical music, regardless of audience, and others who are willing to sing to the audience's likes and dislikes. Nothing wrong with either approach per se. One group keeps the classicism going, other group keeps music popular enough for survival. We need both.

Coolkapali, it just sounds cool, heh. Incidentally my nick had nothing aeronautical about it. The numbers 747 were simply next to each other on the numeric keypad when I first registered an email address and bala wasn't available.

[Nick H]

I wish people would stop talking about "nicks"

Back on topic... I do not like to see the RTP become something to be ticked off on the list, and I have felt a little "short-changed" on several occasions --- and "several occasions" is in the context that many concerts do not even include an RTP.

Am I wrong to expect that the RTP should be as long and as grand as the "main" kriti in a program? If not more so? Those older than I speak of the days when it was the hight of the concert. I have a recording of a concert by London-based artists where the vocalist announces, "I am going to sing a short ragam tanam pallavi..."; she goes on to sing for 40 minutes. The ragamalika kalpana swaras are elaborate, and each one, along with its violin response, stands as in indivudual jewel in the presentation.

If this is what we are loosing, and it seems to be, then certainly I add my voice to the Uphold Tradition camp.

On the other side of the coin, though I am least qualified to comment, I don't find it acceptable to say such as RTP may be in this raga, but not that; experimenting with the likes of HM ragas is not acceptable, and so on. There is only one valid judgement to be made of innovation and experiment, and that is, did it work? If something leaves an audience with the inspiration and uplift of great music, then who should argue that some technicality says they should not have been inspired and uplifted? I have certainly been inspired and uplifted by Suryaprakash singing RTP based on HM raga (If i was a real rasika, I could would be able to tell you what it was, but alas...).

[coolkapali]

History repeats itself...i am sure we are nearing a stage where the majority will start thirsting for Shuddha Sangeetham, and ironically musicians who render that will lay claims to popularity, Incidentally i say. Even , today, we find people fed up with Light Karnatic, looking for a change and quenching their thirst from available traditional musicians.

Is that not why a rare TN Krishnan concert is always overflowing.

[bala747]

Hi nick, agreed. And its not 'wrong' to sing RTPs in North Indian ragas, nor is it wrong to sing RTPs in unexplored ragas. I think what a lot of people are saying is that the RTP has been reduced to a tukkada status, and hence sung in ragas with little scope in it, the entire exercise taking 10-20 minutes. That is the bigger outcry, rather than singing it in an uncommon raga.

If someone can sing a Brindavana Saranga RTP for 60 minutes and hold my attention for that duration, more power to them, but to do an RTP in 20 minutes in a light raga just for the sake of singing an RTP is wrong. It cheapens both the raga and the RTP itself.

[srinivasrgvn]

-

[kaapi]

This has relevance to the thread.

http://www.krishnaganasabha.org/article ... maniam.pdf

In the above article GNB says that RTP is the one that is central to a concert. As a corollary we can assume that during the earlier period every artiste strived to offer their very best in singing the RTP and consequently every raga alapana. Thus most of the artistes specialized in a particular raga/s like PSI - bEgadA, ARI - tOdi, MVI - MOhanam/ Arabhi /darbAr , SSI -karaharapriya down to MDR - sahAna and SOmu - shanmugapriya / tOdi.

I do not know if any of the present day artistes is associated with a particular rAga. For a musician to nurture one or a few ragas to such an extent that his rasikas are willing to listen to him / her again and again for years requires tremendous passion. The same passion provided the underpinning for their raga alapanas in general and also the RTP.

The true worth of a carnatic musician was measured by his ability to imaginatively offer extempore music. The entire tradition of concert music was built with this perspective.

[cacm]

Iwould like to add MMI'S memorable RTP'S in: Mohanam, Lathangi, Keeravani, kalyani, Karaharapriya, Shanmugapriya, apart from several rare ragas. I am writing this because very few persons appear to be aware that there are TWO schools of approach to RTP. The one mostly known appears to be the one EMPHASISING Kanakku & pre-rehearsed reproductions of obviously complicated patterns as opposed to subtle ones. The other approach- not at all emphasised & put down to some extent- is to choose relatively rare ragas & present a large number of ragas thru' swarams. GNB was probably the only one who insisted- because he could may be?-that elaborate Raga alapana be presented followed by the other characteristics. I wish some one like Balaji(Mridangham) present an elementary primer on RTP especially the various ways in which artists over the years have approached RTP. VKV

[bala747]

I have a TK Govinda Rao concert, in Singapore some time in 1998-99. He took up, of all ragas, Abheri as the main item. The piece chosen was one that is sung as a tukkada, Eppadi Paadinaro, (with an elaborate neraval in Karunai Kadal Perugi, Kaadalinaal urugi, kannitamizh sollinal inidunaiye anudinam eppadi padinaro). If any budding musician wants a masterclass in bhava, I encourage you to listen to that concert. He was already old and his voice had lost that rich timbre but I would challenge anyone to say that the concert suffered in any way because of that. By "right" the concert should not have worked. The main item was in a "hindustani" raga, that too a tukkada, sung by a musician who was getting on in years and hence had problems with his shareeram. But TKG produced a spectacular rendition. I am positive if anyone else attempted to do that it would have fallen on its face but TKG pulled it off purely through bhava (as he himself put it, "I can sing like this only because of Ragabhava and Sahityabhava"). To top it off he even gave a short lecture on the importance of Bhava and though it was 10 years ago I remember it like it was yesterday. It was a free concert but the content was priceless.

This leads me to my point: I see something common in all the complaints raised above. What has essentially happened is, in the interest of pleasing crowds, or showing off their technical mastery, artistes and rasikas have forgotten the prime element of music, Bhava. Everything else comes second to bhava. Forget about singing or playing varnams in 40 kaalams to give yourself or the "elite" in the audience an ego trip, sing or play from the heart. There is a reason why TN Krishnan and Lalgudi are legendary while other "technically superior" violinists are just considered "good". Forget about singing ten different ragas in your RTP (sometimes for some artistes this is unintentional ), focus on the raga of choice and do justice to it, and that means exploring the nuances of the raga, from the start of the alapana to the end of the last swaraprastara. If you want to add complex korvais or indulge in laya pyrotechnics by all means go ahead, but the rendition must be based on bhava first, and everything else next.

That is all a real rasika wants. There will always be people willing to listen to that.

[arasi]

BAlA kURum
bhAvam
vENDum
aiyyO pAvam bhAvam
enumpaDi pADalAmA?!

Yes, bhAvam rules--
Should one sing as if
We need to pity poor bhAvam
For being dispensed with?

You remember what TKG said after ten years and some of us remember what we heard about bhAvam after fifty years because this is just about the essence of music.