I am not sure about the intent for closing the thread very abrubtly. Nick had mentioned that the author of the thread in the forum where it was posted / discussed cannot reply to comments made here and therefore there would be no discussion. Quite reasonable I guess in his thoughts. But mods could you please clarify a couple of doubts -
1. There are instances where links from newspapers / reviews in other forums are posted here and discussed and there are fireworks many times - For eg. SVK's review in the Hindu on MSG concert very recently.
2. Is there any rule that states discussions in other forums should not be discussed here ! I am not aware. if there are any such rules, please do clarify.
If that is the case, no review from newspapers etc should be posted here and discussed. It defies Nick's logic !!!
Abrupt closure of thread is not a good practice. No democracy.
Creating a new controversy - Ridiculous - Part 2
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johnlovescm
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 07 Jun 2009, 18:40
Last edited by johnlovescm on 20 Sep 2009, 08:46, edited 1 time in total.
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rajesh_rs
- Posts: 184
- Joined: 01 Dec 2007, 11:18
johnlovescm, I totally empathize. This isn't the only forum where "democracy" isn't practiced. A community online is only as good as its moderators. Even great posters can get discouraged when what they think is their creative outlet ends up becoming a sort of restrictive, censored, selective outlet. If the fun in posting is not there anymore, posters slowly withdraw and fade away. I've seen this on many forums and this is true for all forums. Especially when a mod steps on one's toes for every little thing a person does or says, it is not decorum that is maintained but a sterilized field with no ideas, interesting topics or arguments. Unmoderated forums can lapse into nonsense easily, so it is good to have moderators, but there's no such thing as a perfect moderator, I guess.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
rajesh: What you say is all true in general. If you feel this is what actually happens here, please send an email to the admins/mods .
johnlovescm: Do not take it personally and let it go. It is a judgment call and such things are not perfect and it will not be to the satisfaction of everyone. If you have further comments for the mods/admins please send them an email. Thanks.
johnlovescm: Do not take it personally and let it go. It is a judgment call and such things are not perfect and it will not be to the satisfaction of everyone. If you have further comments for the mods/admins please send them an email. Thanks.
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johnlovescm
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 07 Jun 2009, 18:40
VKvasanthakokilam wrote:rajesh: What you say is all true in general. If you feel this is what actually happens here, please send an email to the admins/mods .
johnlovescm: Do not take it personally and let it go. It is a judgment call and such things are not perfect and it will not be to the satisfaction of everyone. If you have further comments for the mods/admins please send them an email. Thanks.
This has happened more than once with me, I can confirm that. There have been instances where other fellow rasikas supported my views which still got thrashed out by the mod. I do not want to name the mod here in open !!!!!
Infact by the language of the mod used in the Part I of this thread, I can strongly guess who it is as this was not even allowed for a debate.
This raises serious doubts in my mind on the motive.
I still repeat this kind of kindling a controversy is not expected out of the learned lot.
VK, I respect your views on this. However, I do not intend discussing this any further and call it quits. This will be my last post here and my viewing of this site (which I have cherished all this while in the last 4-5 years.
Last edited by johnlovescm on 21 Sep 2009, 12:32, edited 1 time in total.
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rajesh_rs
- Posts: 184
- Joined: 01 Dec 2007, 11:18
I have another suggestion: there are forums where, if a moderator thinks things are going out of control and he/she can't handle it, he should take a judgement call and hand over responsibility of moderation to someone else - what's more, this replacement should be voted in by the community, and of course, the person should agree to moderate. This can prevent the current mod from becoming unpopular and eventually benefits everyone in the forum. It can prevent members from quitting, like johnlovescm has so unfortunately done above.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Rajesh, johnlovescm: As much as I really do not want to drag this on in public let me add this rather reluctantly. Perception of what the mods have done, reading motives when none may exist, treating inconsistencies as inconsiderate behavior and taking offense based on these are definitely possible reasons for someone deciding to quit. That is why I strongly recommend contacting the mods/admin by email to get any clarifications. I am just stating this so that every action mods take, however trivial it is in the grand scheme of things, does not become a topic of big discussion. Then every such decision becomes a great moral dilemma resulting in inaction. Many decisions are taken in moment's notice knowing fully well someone will be unhappy about it.
I know getting moderated is not a pleasant thing, from my own personal experience in other forums. In some cases, I considered their actions idiotic and failed to see their point of view. But it is not a big deal. It is just an internet forum.
It is good to let it go, it is not an earth shattering matter and above all it is not personal. That is the extent I can persuade anyone, beyond that it is member's personal decision.
I know getting moderated is not a pleasant thing, from my own personal experience in other forums. In some cases, I considered their actions idiotic and failed to see their point of view. But it is not a big deal. It is just an internet forum.
It is good to let it go, it is not an earth shattering matter and above all it is not personal. That is the extent I can persuade anyone, beyond that it is member's personal decision.
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rajumds
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:16
VK
I regret that you are defending a wrong cause.
We have discussed many issues based on news paper articles and interviews given elsewhere. First the thread was abruptly locked with out the moderator identifying himself and spelling out why he locked. Whenever srkris locks a thread he posts a message saying that he is locking the thread due to such and such reason. In this case who ever locked the thread didn't have that basic courtesy. After locking the thread, the original post was also modified, again the moderator not identifying himself.
Of course I can guess the reason behind haste and many of the old time members can guess who made the post in sangeethapriya. We need to take stock of the situation and act putting the health of the forum above everything else.
I regret that you are defending a wrong cause.
We have discussed many issues based on news paper articles and interviews given elsewhere. First the thread was abruptly locked with out the moderator identifying himself and spelling out why he locked. Whenever srkris locks a thread he posts a message saying that he is locking the thread due to such and such reason. In this case who ever locked the thread didn't have that basic courtesy. After locking the thread, the original post was also modified, again the moderator not identifying himself.
Of course I can guess the reason behind haste and many of the old time members can guess who made the post in sangeethapriya. We need to take stock of the situation and act putting the health of the forum above everything else.
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rajeshnat
- Posts: 10144
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
Just few viewpoints with respect to moderation, I would have passed this thread had it not been of rajumds previous viewpoints.
case 1. In this first posting part 1 of thread by johnlovescm, the post gave an example of an vidwan and how somewhere in down south tamilnadu, some one gives a viewpoint that the thamizh songs was not given its respect or so . Then nick raised his view point .
In short at that point when I read both john and nick's post.I felt at that point perhaps john was taking some rant from another forum which was unneeded (I think john took those controversy from a sangeethapriya yahoo groups or so) and making it continue into a tail here. At that point quite frankly I felt it was kind of 51-49 in terms of whether that controversial post has to be pushed out or should it stay.
Again please note , each of our perceptions inclusive of moderators can become more harsh or more leniant, as more and more readers put their view point in each of the thread.(that too with levelheaded folks like rajumds the tide may swing in that side of opinion) .
rajumds,
I dont think there is any wrong cause here(did you read the first post in full, I am assuming you have not done that). Please note that the newspaper articles and interviews are in a domain where it is publicly accessible , where as in this case it was posted by someone in sangeethapriya forums and that few lines were cut and pasted by john, it was kind of source of the post was sangeethapriya , tail and debates here in rasikas.org. To me what johnlovescm could have done then is perhaps worded that controversy little better to start the thread or better yet continued with discussions in that forum. Personally more than the contents , the chaining of two forums content is a good thing to stop on a long run.
case 2. In another case where a top class poster was involved around his 250th post , that post was clear case of poor taste as it was not suited for all ages and that had to be removed. That is why mods had to do , despite the original poster had to ask and then srkris had to give a reply. This particular poster is one of my top 10 favorite , but still that post was in bad taste.
Both that top class poster and johnlovescm are indeed needed in this forum and I personally appreciate both of them in varying degrees.
By default , I feel we all should incline and side with mods and perhaps give them a benefit of doubt. In all these cases what happens is a vast majority who donot read the original post are slowly given an impression that mods are cutting the freedom which is certainly not the case.To the best of my knowledge that has not happened .
Mods:
Just few tips.
1. I hope whenever you are deleting any posts , take a copy and paste and store it in your notepad . At times when the whole post is removed the original poster would feel terribly pissed off, at times as mods also you may feel you could have restored few more of the lines. Sometimes when posts have internal link to upload links and when you have to delete the content , it creates big feeling of let down . So bottomline always take a copy of posts before you act.
2. Also try your best to lock the thread before purging the thread, unless it is offensive to the core and not suiting those below 18 .In the first case perhaps the thread could have been locked and in second case deletion of that post was right. I just find at times when to lock vs when to purge is where you are slightly erring . But certainly no big deal either way, as I could also err if I was in that position.
case 1. In this first posting part 1 of thread by johnlovescm, the post gave an example of an vidwan and how somewhere in down south tamilnadu, some one gives a viewpoint that the thamizh songs was not given its respect or so . Then nick raised his view point .
In short at that point when I read both john and nick's post.I felt at that point perhaps john was taking some rant from another forum which was unneeded (I think john took those controversy from a sangeethapriya yahoo groups or so) and making it continue into a tail here. At that point quite frankly I felt it was kind of 51-49 in terms of whether that controversial post has to be pushed out or should it stay.
Again please note , each of our perceptions inclusive of moderators can become more harsh or more leniant, as more and more readers put their view point in each of the thread.(that too with levelheaded folks like rajumds the tide may swing in that side of opinion) .
rajumds,
I dont think there is any wrong cause here(did you read the first post in full, I am assuming you have not done that). Please note that the newspaper articles and interviews are in a domain where it is publicly accessible , where as in this case it was posted by someone in sangeethapriya forums and that few lines were cut and pasted by john, it was kind of source of the post was sangeethapriya , tail and debates here in rasikas.org. To me what johnlovescm could have done then is perhaps worded that controversy little better to start the thread or better yet continued with discussions in that forum. Personally more than the contents , the chaining of two forums content is a good thing to stop on a long run.
case 2. In another case where a top class poster was involved around his 250th post , that post was clear case of poor taste as it was not suited for all ages and that had to be removed. That is why mods had to do , despite the original poster had to ask and then srkris had to give a reply. This particular poster is one of my top 10 favorite , but still that post was in bad taste.
Both that top class poster and johnlovescm are indeed needed in this forum and I personally appreciate both of them in varying degrees.
By default , I feel we all should incline and side with mods and perhaps give them a benefit of doubt. In all these cases what happens is a vast majority who donot read the original post are slowly given an impression that mods are cutting the freedom which is certainly not the case.To the best of my knowledge that has not happened .
Mods:
Just few tips.
1. I hope whenever you are deleting any posts , take a copy and paste and store it in your notepad . At times when the whole post is removed the original poster would feel terribly pissed off, at times as mods also you may feel you could have restored few more of the lines. Sometimes when posts have internal link to upload links and when you have to delete the content , it creates big feeling of let down . So bottomline always take a copy of posts before you act.
2. Also try your best to lock the thread before purging the thread, unless it is offensive to the core and not suiting those below 18 .In the first case perhaps the thread could have been locked and in second case deletion of that post was right. I just find at times when to lock vs when to purge is where you are slightly erring . But certainly no big deal either way, as I could also err if I was in that position.
Last edited by rajeshnat on 21 Sep 2009, 18:48, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Thanks Rajesh and rajumds. Rajesh, good feedback. Consider it received and understood. Also, your understanding and explanation of the current issue is correct.
Rajumds, too bad my post sounded defensive to you, because that was not the import.. Not wanting to sound defensive is another reason I was reluctant to post the above in public.
Second, on a definitely defensive posture...., we have the luxury of looking at both sides of the issue now but such vacillations are of no use when one has to act
Yes, a different tactic could have been employed, but it was not. The mods also learn. But I do not want you to automatically assume it is due to malice or lack of courtesy.
Let me use Rajesh's lead to state something in general. The moderation level in this forum is quite low. The mails the mods get pointing out their lack of action outstrips complaints about their action.
Rajumds, too bad my post sounded defensive to you, because that was not the import.. Not wanting to sound defensive is another reason I was reluctant to post the above in public.
Second, on a definitely defensive posture...., we have the luxury of looking at both sides of the issue now but such vacillations are of no use when one has to act
Yes, a different tactic could have been employed, but it was not. The mods also learn. But I do not want you to automatically assume it is due to malice or lack of courtesy.Let me use Rajesh's lead to state something in general. The moderation level in this forum is quite low. The mails the mods get pointing out their lack of action outstrips complaints about their action.
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gn.sn42
- Posts: 396
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:56
Let me speak up - the moderators on rasikas.org are exceptionally good.
In the main, threads are allowed to be created freely and there really is no control of the discussion. (The "members lounge" was set up if I remember even though the mods did not like the idea.) Yes, some posts are deleted and so on, but that is precisely the role of a moderator, and it is their call. Sometimes it's a difficult call, and individual members may not agree with it, but that is how forums work.
There are forums where each post is moderated; there are forums where new members cannot post; there are forums where other members can vote to remove posts; but each forum has its own rules and its own moderators.
Online forums are public, yes, but they are not democratic. If the rules, the company, the content, and the culture of a forum suit you, you should participate. I find rasikas.org an interesting, friendly, useful stop on the web. Of course I don't agree with all that is said and done here. But as vasanthakokilam said, it's just an internet forum, and we should all maintain some perspective.
In the main, threads are allowed to be created freely and there really is no control of the discussion. (The "members lounge" was set up if I remember even though the mods did not like the idea.) Yes, some posts are deleted and so on, but that is precisely the role of a moderator, and it is their call. Sometimes it's a difficult call, and individual members may not agree with it, but that is how forums work.
There are forums where each post is moderated; there are forums where new members cannot post; there are forums where other members can vote to remove posts; but each forum has its own rules and its own moderators.
Online forums are public, yes, but they are not democratic. If the rules, the company, the content, and the culture of a forum suit you, you should participate. I find rasikas.org an interesting, friendly, useful stop on the web. Of course I don't agree with all that is said and done here. But as vasanthakokilam said, it's just an internet forum, and we should all maintain some perspective.
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
gn.sn,
You said it better than I would have. All freedom and no responsibilities is NOT a true democracy unless one has a malfunctioning democracy in mind. We cannot assume that we can say anyhting we like because we have the freedom. There have been occasions when a few have treated the forum like a wall available for graffiti.
The forum has a personality, whatever it is, and those who post regularly here, like to have a healthy interchange of ideas and information. Those who come in casually and say what they feel without thinking of the consequences, do not fully realize that it IS a democratic forum, but most people here use their voice with a feeling of responsibility, thinking of the wellbeing of the forum.
gn.sn is right. There are very few rules here, and those who think that this forum is stifling, are free to move on to graze in pastures which are more suitable to them. I am just a member, and every time something comes up for the administrator and moderators to deal with, I am thankful I am not one of them! That is enough freedom for me
You said it better than I would have. All freedom and no responsibilities is NOT a true democracy unless one has a malfunctioning democracy in mind. We cannot assume that we can say anyhting we like because we have the freedom. There have been occasions when a few have treated the forum like a wall available for graffiti.
The forum has a personality, whatever it is, and those who post regularly here, like to have a healthy interchange of ideas and information. Those who come in casually and say what they feel without thinking of the consequences, do not fully realize that it IS a democratic forum, but most people here use their voice with a feeling of responsibility, thinking of the wellbeing of the forum.
gn.sn is right. There are very few rules here, and those who think that this forum is stifling, are free to move on to graze in pastures which are more suitable to them. I am just a member, and every time something comes up for the administrator and moderators to deal with, I am thankful I am not one of them! That is enough freedom for me
Last edited by arasi on 21 Sep 2009, 23:16, edited 1 time in total.
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cmlover
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
The item under consideration was posted and fully discussed at sangeethapriya which is an open Forum of which many among here are members too. Any body interested could express their views a that Forum freely than import the materials and discussions in here. Further cutting and pasting just a segment without the rest of the fulll discussions smacks of simple mischief. If johnlovescm wants to have some fun by flaming the rasikas here he is out of step and it will be moderated. Further folks identify themselves at sangeethapriya and discussing names explicitly at this forum can lead to slander which we do not tolerate. I am sure rajumds very wisely being aware of that deleted his own post and thanks to him. Nick sounded the right message. Moderators always have the job of damage control. There is no restriction of freedom of speech at this Forum as long as the subject is relevant to CM and the personal views of "identified" individuals are not called in question! VK as a moderator has not taken any sides but simply stated the dilemmas that are faced here in maintaining the sanity of this Forum. If johnlovescm quits the Forum we feel bad but he cannot use this Forum to 'flame' and have some personal fun. He is free to start the topic of interest on his own and invite the views of this membership!
...and of course personal email of members as well those of the admin/moderators are available to everybody to convey their personal views and complaints if any..
...and of course personal email of members as well those of the admin/moderators are available to everybody to convey their personal views and complaints if any..
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srkris
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3497
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 03:34
I second CML's post above. Every moderator's act is an act based on good faith. Attempting to find a mal-a-fide intent in a particular moderator's action is just not the done thing.
Raising threads in the forum to discuss the actions of a particular moderator (or that of the forum in general) is not also acceptable, since there are other alternatives available for a genuine concern to be voiced at the appropriate quarters. All such threads are likely to be closed and/or deleted without further notice, which is what was done earlier by the moderator in question.
It is not necessary for each moderator to identify themselves in such a way as to enable some people to make potshots against particular moderators.
Having said that, this thread is likely to be removed very soon.
Raising threads in the forum to discuss the actions of a particular moderator (or that of the forum in general) is not also acceptable, since there are other alternatives available for a genuine concern to be voiced at the appropriate quarters. All such threads are likely to be closed and/or deleted without further notice, which is what was done earlier by the moderator in question.
It is not necessary for each moderator to identify themselves in such a way as to enable some people to make potshots against particular moderators.
Having said that, this thread is likely to be removed very soon.
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annamalai
- Posts: 355
- Joined: 23 Nov 2006, 07:01
I agree with the decision of the moderator to lock the thread.
The posting in sangeethapriya itself was in a provocative tone - similar to some of the long argumentative threads here in this forum. Not sure there is anything new ground to be covered, it was reviving the old parochial and non-musical issues. The discussion in Sangeethapriya died down, but in this forum usually such threads go on forever.
The posting in sangeethapriya itself was in a provocative tone - similar to some of the long argumentative threads here in this forum. Not sure there is anything new ground to be covered, it was reviving the old parochial and non-musical issues. The discussion in Sangeethapriya died down, but in this forum usually such threads go on forever.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01