M.S.Ammas birthday

malavi · Post by **malavi** » 16 Sep 2009, 11:02

Today is M.S.Ammas bithday.There was a recorded programme in AIR today.What a beautiful simhendramadyamam and the kriti was papanasam sivans ' ikaparasukam'.the combination of M.S.and Radha viswanathan is always wondrerful.The rendering of 'kandu kandu'was very nice esp.her malayalam pronounciation.Kuraiyonrumillai was the last item.so many people may sing this song but no one can beat M.S.AMMA.It was a nice tribute by AIR chennai on her bithday.

Aditto · Post by **Aditto** » 16 Sep 2009, 15:30

Hi malavi ..
Can you please give a detailed concert list !

Thanks
Aditya

gmohan · Post by **gmohan** » 16 Sep 2009, 16:01

the concert is uploaded in TVG's folder in sangeethamshare.

Aditto · Post by **Aditto** » 16 Sep 2009, 17:04

Thankyou very much.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 Sep 2009, 18:28

malavi wrote:Kuraiyonrumillai was the last item.so many people may sing this song but no one can beat M.S.AMMA

Probably because most people just sing it (and some of them sing it very well), but Smt. MSS made you experience it - I am sure that a person burdened with all the cares of the world would, at the end of her rendition, feel lightened enough to feel 'kuRai onrum illai'!

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 16 Sep 2009, 19:13

Frankly, I think Kurai onrum illai is a song with mediocre lyrics, and not much artistical merit and only MS's voice elevated that song from an average one to a great one. Anyone else singing it moved it squarely back to the ordinary, no matter how many complex sangathi gimmickry they attempt. That magnetic voice and bhava laden singing made that song work. Personal opinion here, and people are welcome to disagree.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 16 Sep 2009, 22:32

I thank you for being open enough to let others disagree. I feel the opposite! Simpler language set to great melodic forms & rythmns
have their own charm. The words, juxtaposition of Swaras& swara sthanams a well as the rythmic patterns ALL appear to contribute to making a piece not just popular but Transcendental in nature that will stand the test of time. Oh Rangasayee, Kanakkankodi, Karpagame, Kapali ALL are simple words but the Musical context & the brilliance of the composer elevates them to levels that cannot be explained but EXPERIENCED. As a physicist as well as a music lover I have found the opening of many compositions like Mahler's second symphony, Beethoven's Ninth, as well as SIVAN'S & THYAGABRAHMAM'S Compositions elevates one to a transcendental level not explainable except for the fact that they fit perfectly Various aspects of Musical grammar combined with simple language...Actually BACH'S final compositions after his unmatched torrents of musical complexity was finally concluded by his compositions for simple sounding unaccompanied violin! Einstein's E=MC SQUARED is the ultimate example of simplicity......Iam writing these just to hopefully provoke a good discussion & not to be be critical of any one's views. VKV

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Sep 2009, 02:00

VKV,
This is not about Rajaji's one and only comopsition

but about your
sharing your long and rich musical experiences with others. Every now and then, it is nice to see a broader perspective on music like yours on the forum. We, the older set seem to be more open-minded about music than a few on the forum who aren't even half our age!
To reject any music just because it is not CM puzzles me. Even assuming CM is the best when it comes to all music, does it mean, shut out all the rest of it? Music is not the fine expression of just one kind of people in the southern corner of India. Are only those students who went to the ivy schools or to IIT true scholars who become superior workers in any field?
Anyway, music is the expression of all humanity. We can all be proud of the music that happened to be our heritage, but not with the feeling that all the rest is inferior. Wonder if those who are vehement that CM is only about bhakthi realize that bhakthi is humanity too, tolerance and acceptance?
How do we show our tolerance in the musical sense? By not totally rejecting anything non-CM, even without pausing to see if they have any merits...
On the great lady's birthday, maitrim bhajata is the song to inspire us--a song created by a sage who represented just one path in hinduism but embraced all of humanity.
MS broke the barriers of states, languages and even world borders with her naDOpAsana. As a person, she treated all those who came into her life as equals. She loved her music and lived in it and that elevated her to the extraordinary being we all love...

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 17 Sep 2009, 02:34

bala747 wrote:Frankly, I think Kurai onrum illai is a song with mediocre lyrics, and not much artistical merit and only MS's voice elevated that song from an average one to a great one.

Well, I disagree - I think the lyrics are potent, and as I said earlier here (http://rasikas.org/forums/post80709.html#p80709) when we discussed this earlier, "Well, what's not to like (to use Gopalakrishna Gandhi's words) triangulated as it were between Sri Rajaji, Sri Venkataraman, and Smt. MSS? (incredible wordsmith, immortal tunesmith, and celestial singer) - what more can one ask - kuRai onDrum illai, right?"

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 17 Sep 2009, 03:24

Dear Arasi,
I admire not only your EXCELLENT compositions but your innate ability to zero in & clearly explain complex issues.......Don't you think we were very fortunate to have not only lived but somewhat interacted with PURE GREATNESS
& GENIUS as exemplified my MSS & others that we lived along with as part of the human race......VKV

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 17 Sep 2009, 06:13

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 17 Sep 2009, 22:24

Arasi/VKV: Both your posts are excellent and represent the eclecticism that should be the underpinning for this forum. My eyes are moist remembering Mami--as a coincidence the other day I was going thro my albums and came across an animated photo of myself and Mami during my son's marriage and another photo of Mami and myself singing Malai Pozhudinile for Radha's dance in an impromptu gesture in my house in NY in 1977 acceding to my wife's request as she had never seen Radha dancing!!).The abhinaya for Mohana Punnagai than Purindan was vintage Radha although she was in her Mid-Forties.
Then I "unearthed" from my archives a cassette Mami had made in 1975 and sent to me in NY-- in response to my request to sing one of the rare ragas(in the sense not much Alapana was attempted!).

She sang Hamsanadham Alapana for 20 to 25 minutes without repetition in the true Suswaram characteristic of Mami and ended it with a comment saying "people think I cannot sing alapanas of rare ragas" but I chose not to because the stage is not a platform to demonstrate one's virtuosity alone but an opportunity to seek divine grace thro one's music.

re; Kurai Onrum Illai I find the simple lyrics evocative but more importantly Kadayanallur Venkatraman who set the tune needs to be congratulated for the serenity and dignity of the composition.Ofcourse that song sung by any other person with frills does not measure upto Mami's rendering.

Last but not least Mami was the ONLY person in the World who can truly say Kurai Onrum Illai without hesitation!! She also meant it when she sang in Kanneduthahilum Kaneero--"PATTAM PADAVI PERA PADAVILLAI AYAH,THANGA PADAKKANGALAI ENNI NADA VILLAI AYAH. mama once intently listened to Mami(in a Marriage concert in Chennai with lots of noise) and commented to me sitting next to him--What devotion she brings in a Kalyana Kutcheri--that was vintage Mami in singing and vintage Mama as her #1 Fan!!!

Oh so much to reminisce and rejoice!!
I think I will continue the TS narrative in this thread if forumites prefer!! All the anecdotes and posts have been in the CM Books(M.S.Radha Book ) .
Feedback please!!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 17 Sep 2009, 22:27

Ramasubramanian M.K - Please continue the TS narrative in this thread

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 18 Sep 2009, 00:03

Dear Ramesh(M.K.R.),
I am so moved by your posting I am having difficulty seeing the monitor because of the tears. PLEASE continue to write about MS Amma as I am convinced YOU are one of the FEW who knew her well & is not using her name&fame to further personal claims to glory by ASSOCIATION. IT IS A PITY we have not reached the maturity to recognise transcendental genius combined with humility& greatness. VKV

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 18 Sep 2009, 05:23

Shri MKR, I am in the same situation as shri vkv43034; Not only her kutcheris, but words written/said about her also are MUSIC to our ears;they bring tears in our eyes. What a NOBLE SOUL she was.
Yes ,when she sang 'kuRai onRum illai' the whole world knew she had no regrets.She brought life into the words she sang. Pl. continue and make us cry.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Sep 2009, 05:40

Thanks MKR. Some fine points. We all know MS as a superb singer. She was also a devout wife and an affectionate mother. The book reveals flashes of her family life which are also educational for every 'kuDumba peN'. We do not know much about her interactions socially. Hence your personal reminiscenses fill an important gap. We also get to know TS who was the main architect since not much has been written about him as many do not know even about his patriotism! Thanks for your personal memoirs!

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 18 Sep 2009, 07:07

Dear cmlover,
When I got married in 1967 at Tiruchanur M.S.& T.S. insisted we should have our first meal at Kalki Gardens. We came right after the function in a chartered bus. M.S. herself did the Arathi singing Gowri Kalyanam when we entered Kalki Gardens! Of course the audience was literally who's who in our music& culture....Also whenever we visited their home when we left M.S. always came to the front porch to see us off! Not only that she was looking at our departure from the vantage point till we were out of sight....... What unforgettable personal experiences! I should also say that M.S.had such a sharp wit I had to really think a lot before I uttered a word! VKV

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Sep 2009, 07:50

Goes to show she was blessed in every way; not just musically!
Her (as well as TS's) munificence to common causes is legendary!

Aishu · Post by **Aishu** » 19 Sep 2009, 19:56

Dear Friends,

Here is a link of a concert that I did in Mumbai. See how radiant MS amma looks on the picture. Hope you all enjoy the ragam. I felt like she was giving me her complete blessings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U8lXgSUr28

Thanks

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Sep 2009, 20:08

Very nice melodious classical AB Aishu!
If MS amma were alive to hear it she would have garlanded you on the fine performance.
Just keep it up and Good Luck!

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 22 Sep 2009, 01:23

Aishu wrote:Dear Friends,

Here is a link of a concert that I did in Mumbai. See how radiant MS amma looks on the picture. Hope you all enjoy the ragam. I felt like she was giving me her complete blessings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U8lXgSUr28

Thanks

Dear Aishu,
Let me request you to post your u tube video link-Ananda bhairavi Alapana- under VIDWANS& VIDUSHIS SUB-SECTION UNDER M.S.S. because the discussions appear to happen there! Of course your alapana is superb & I want to write my reactions in some detail there. VKV

Aishu · Post by **Aishu** » 22 Sep 2009, 03:00

cmlover, Thanks for your kind words.

VKV mama, I have provided a link in the Vidwans and Vidushi section as per your request.

Aishu

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 07 Oct 2009, 03:46

Dear Forumites:Sorry for the long hybernation--the "pearly" gates of the Forum are unmerciful when it comes to digital luddite interlopers like me!! Thanks to VKV and Mr Chandramowli,I could overcome my amnesia(with regard to my ID and P/W) and here I am back again to continue the MS-TS saga.
I am a little rusty after the long pause--so indulge me if you would as I try to get organized!!

Henceforth,I intend to cover Mama's life in a chronological order(in decades not year-by-year),as he lived till 95 and my as well as my family's association pretty much covered over 60 years==the interactions were continuos despite the fact for half of the period we lived in different towns(Bombay/Chennai). I never kept a Diary(as MS mami did diligently throughout her life!!)Someone defined the Diary as "Document useful to the person who keeps it,dull to the contemporary who reads it,invaluable to the student centuries afterwards who treasure it!!". None of these explanations are responsible for my not keeping a Diary=although later on I kept a diary of concerts and songs for Mami as she had stopped giving or going to concerts and always was curious and inquisitive about who is singing,what are they singing etc)more of these musical exchanges later!!).
Needless to say I was in "awe" of both of them--how they maintained their public poise and grace under pressure,wearing the celebrity monikker lightly on their shoulders and yet continue to function as ordinary family folk.

In looking back on some of the instances in my early interaction(before I turned 10),I had formed some opinions about Mama(could he be so authoritarian?) and some ambivalence towards Mami(Could she be "real"?). Later as on with my own experience of growing up,meeting other artistes at close quarters,I found myself questioning my own early misjudgements about some of Mama's traits that so many were critical about--his "tiffs" with the Music Academy,his "allegedly autocratic and self-serving
actions under the veneer of principles etc etc".I am now of the firm conclusion that when one strings together the contexts in which such behavioral traits became prominent,benefit of doubt would go to Mama and not to his critics------who may have had their own "fish-to-fry".

To be continued----

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Oct 2009, 05:02

Welcome back MKR!
Even if you forget, we at the Forum won't forget you

In the context of the 'tiffs' with MA tell us why MS did not sing at MA for a long time till they decided to give her the SK and due to the efforts of TTK. The story I heard was that she was banned for singing 'too much' in Tamil. But I can't digest that fully. If you know the full story do 'spill the beans'

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 07 Oct 2009, 06:54

Dear Ramesh,
Welcome back. We need you badly to understand the UNIQUE couple- M.S & T.S- It always amazed me how TWO persons can reach such incredible LEVELS of acheivements & Detachments. I spend practically every weekend discussing with my brother V.K.B. who was even CLOSER to them. Mine was more operational due to my own limitations but his was a bonding at a very superior level. It is an AMAZING & UPLIFTING STORY & i wish I have the ability to put it in words. VKV

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 07 Oct 2009, 07:11

Welcome back, Sri RMK! We have fastened our seat belts and are eagerly awaiting the dizzying ride you are about to take us on.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Oct 2009, 07:22

Welcome back, RMK!
What a pair they were! The saying goes: marriages are made in heaven. Here was a match made on earth by heaven itself, as it were!

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 07 Oct 2009, 08:42

Continuing the MS/TS Saga--I had mentioned about an oft-quoted criticism or observation about Mama regarding his mercurial temper.I was witness to one such incident early in my life-although there were many times I have seen mama "fly off" and the whole kalki gardens crowd would scurry around to find a tiny tot Gowri(his grandniece )or Radha(sometimes even this will fail because Radha herself may have been "jointly culpable with Mami!!) to "pacify" mama.During these outbursts the recipient would be best advised to keep silent and "absorb" the verbal tongue-lashing rather than offer some meek or feeble alibi and worsen the situation. Mami innocently and not by design was remarkably stoic --- no hysteric crying bewailing her innocence and no counter arguments. Ofcourse after the "storm" passes,Mama would turn on his charm with an "Appane"(this was his most chellam greeting for mami!!)--the "vatsalyam" with which he will say that word would make us all wonder where was this Vathsalyam when he was in a rage--now for the incident--my first witness to mama's wrath-It was in 1946 when both of them had come to Bombay for the release of Hindi Meera.They had come a couple of days before to oversee all the myriad arrangements(Mama was a perfectionist--every detail,the guest list,the order in which the guests should be received,the photographer's angle etc etc). On the day of the event--the release was in a theater-now defunct--called central--it was near Bombay central--somewhat close to the latter-day Maratha mandir-there were a string of visitors--friends,dignitaries--to the house they were staying in matunga(opposite to where we lived--Mami would first "show-up" on the balcony to say hai to my mother to herald her arrival!!).Needless to say everybody in the household was stretched to the limit- myself and my Mom visited them in the morning being spectators to the endless parade of vistors. Sometime around 11 or noon,I do not know to this day what triggered Mama's wrath--he went off in a tangent and next to him was a cardboard box which contained lots of "stills"(photographs of the movie Meera which the Publicity agent had delivered and was to be picked up by the Theater staff for display in the theater for the evening premiere--Mama tore up that box and started tearing each of the photographs into pieces(so many that it would have formed one of the most difficult "jigsaw" puzzles to put together!!)-apparently something Mami said about the Premiere release "ticked him off"(to this day I do not know what was it that triggered)--my mother watching this stealthily salvaged a couple of those stills from the box without Mama noticing it for display in the theater in the evening. Ofcourse before the event itself things had calmed down and Mama was his usual charming self-- Our family was privileged--myself,my sister and my mother --sat with Mami in the "BOX"(usually seats four) watching the movie(there is a sidebar to this story which I will narrate later to illustrate how unsophisticated and simple Mami was!!).My thought to this day has been WHAT COULD HAVE MAMI SAID THAT PROVOKED THIS FRUITLESS RAGE THAT NEARLY WRECKED A GRAND GALA FUNCTION TO BE PRESIDED OVER BY SAROJINI NAIDU?WASN'T THAT REACTION EXCESSIVELY HARSH TOWARDS ONE OF THE MOST BENIGN SOULS IN THE WORLD? But then in the evening he "orchestrated" the function so well that Mami later on commented how well Mama managed and how right he was in being upset- Mami's refrain was always "I must have said something to upset him so much"--never the usual spousal denial of any wrongdoing--Now for the younger women forumites this might seem like an insensitive act towards a great soul!! Nobody understood Mama as well as Mami although Mami was one of the most gullible,naive souls !!!They were made for each other.

Now for the "sidebar" story I had mentioned earlier!!At the Premiere myself,my sister and my Mom were seated in the "BOX"(four seats in two rows back to back along with mami--my mother and mami were seated in the back--Mami would watch our emotions reactions to the scenes/songs!!0
As we were watching the movie(I must admit I was moved by the movie--being too young could not separate the emotion from reality!!),the sequence of events prior to Meera leaving the palace towards the desert--the Rana's admonition and the whole welter of emotions(the music etcetc) climaxed by the scene where there is a severe storm uprooting trees and knocking the Thambura down and being washed away in the rains I burst into tears(more due to seeing one person known to you so well being put thro the suffering rather than any uncanny ability to gauge good acting!!). I still remember Mami saying to my mother at the end of the event as to how realistic her acting must have been to move Ramesh!! My sister however was not easily moved and deservedly got a "tongue-lashing" from my mother for not being able to distinguish good acting!!!

It was this combination of utter "naivete" and "cluelessness to the ways of the world" and the deep understanding of what Mama was trying to accomplish for her,that makes Mami an enigma to the World!!Sure enough thro the release of Meera and the carefully orchestrated campaign with the dignitaries like Nehru,Sarojini Naidu,GD Birla--- Mama had catapulted Mami to the National Stage as an epitome of Bhakthi,artistry and grace. and made her stand apart from other artists.The success of Meera brought forth lots of offers for Mami to continue in films but Mama would not even entertain the thought of it because he felt after depicting Mami as a symbol of Bhakthi and devotion to God any other role would only "besmirch" her impeccable reputation.Neither the fact that Mami was only thirty and the opportunity to make money was immense would tempt Mama to go the film route. To her credit,despite the fame and acclaim that the film had generated(any artist in her situation would not have easily consented to quit the "stage" at that juncture) Mami did not bat an eyelid whenmama decided to put a kabosh on her Cine career!!

To be continued----

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 19 Oct 2009, 03:58

Folks: have not heard any response so far(I am not soliciting one--just to ascertain whether the confusion in my posting on this subject-TS/MS in three different threads(CM BOOKS/Vidwans and VidushisMSS/MS Amma' birthday may have thrown forumites off!!.
Just to find out if there is sustained interest in the subject and if so which thread would be the best suited!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 19 Oct 2009, 05:28

Dear Sri MKR these are valuable chronicles. I think they would be better suited to the main MSS vidushi thread however.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Oct 2009, 05:47

Dear MKR
I don't know what sort of a feedback you are expecting from us. You are the one who was close to the Family and who knows all the facts. Barring VKV all of us are silent spectators. If there is any dissent, that has to come from the family of TS/MS. Most of us do not know much about MS personally except that she is an Icon of CM and one with a divine grace and one who was never after any material gains from her divine gift of CM. We know much little about TS and it is a revelation to know that he was a patriot who sacrificed a lot for our country's freedom. That issue is not highlighted well by you, nor by any other documented sources. Of course he was an angry man with human foibles which is irrelevant for us. Was he an autocrat who made decisions on behalf of MS without her consent? I doubt very much. He was instrumental in bringing her in a big way (she already was a famous star) into the movie world and then he withdrew her from filmdom on a personal whim?

To her credit,despite the fame and acclaim that the film had generated(any artist in her situation would not have easily consented to quit the "stage" at that juncture) Mami did not bat an eyelid whenmama decided to put a kabosh on her Cine career!!

The quote tastes sour! There were great men like kanchi periyavaaL, Kalki, Rajaji who made input in her life. I am sure MS took the decision on her own to dedicate herself fully to CM and thought movies would interfere with that mission. That is my personal view as others may have their own. As a historian you should recount the facts truthfully to the best of your knowledge. As listeners we may draw our own conclusions but will voice our dissent if the facts don't gyve. Let us not however interfere with your narrations with our comments.

Do continue! We are following you!
Others may speak up too if there are any valid comments.

s_hari · Post by **s_hari** » 19 Oct 2009, 06:01

Ramasubramanian M.K wrote:Folks: have not heard any response so far(I am not soliciting one--just to ascertain whether the confusion in my posting on this subject-TS/MS in three different threads(CM BOOKS/Vidwans and VidushisMSS/MS Amma' birthday may have thrown forumites off!!.
Just to find out if there is sustained interest in the subject and if so which thread would be the best suited!

MKR Sir - Please continue.. It will be great if admins can collate all your writings on MS Amma, and either move under vidwan-vidushi section, or create a new thread for you - like MKR's tribute to MSAmma.. We read most of the threads here(;-

-hari

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 19 Oct 2009, 09:41

Forumites: My apologies!! I was not complaining that there was no feedback from you folks!! Because I had mixed up the posts in different threads coupled with the temporary digital silence,I was not sure the latest post was read.From your responses I am assured that it has been read.
CMLover
.I respect your "take" on my observation about TS's decision to quit films and MS's acquiescence in it.True Maha Periyaval's influence was there but not in the time frame that I was alluding to viz. the Post Meera(circa 1946).Maha Periyaval's influence came subsequently.(I shall revert to it later) As for Rajaji's role implied by you,I must admit I am not aware of it (this does not mean that it was not there).Given the fact that Rajaji has been the mentor for Mama even during the period in the Forties when Mama was into films and Rajaji's known distaste towards the Movie business, it seems unlikely to me(this is pure inferential on my part--I have never discussed this nor have I been privy as "a-fly-in-the -wall " to any discussions on this issue) that Mama needed to be prodded by Rajaji to have MS quit films. I stand firm in my conviction that Mama's decision to quit films was arrived at on his own(mission accomplished--why pursue something that was NEVER intended to be a career anyway?)prompted by his own farsight to "channelise" Mami's nationwide reputation and musical talents towards charitable causes--these were the motivations for Mami's retirement from films.

I am sorry if my earlier post with the tailpiece remark that "putting a kabosh to mami's film career" gave a "sour note" to the issue. I did not mean to imply that it was done by Mama without Mami's consent to it!!

Now to the Maha periyaval influence.
As a background it must be noted Mama's religious leanings were overshadowed by his prolonged Freedom Movement association and the inspiration of Bharatiyar especially with regard to the caste system and untouchability. Also the fact that his marriage to Mami was not looked upon by Society with approval made him skeptical about the religious practitioners' obscurantist views. Although there were pujas being performed at home Mama himself did not carry religion in his shirt sleeve and also shunned some visible signs of his Brahminic heritage-for example he did not wear the Poonal nor did he believe in Shraddam for his ancestors. These views were slowly countermanded by Semmangudi Mama whose ties to the Sadasivam family( which had been hitherto perfunctory) started playing a constructive role not only in shaping Mami's Music but also in remoulding Mama's outlook on life in general and people in particular. Semmangudi Mama can be very persuasive without being intrusive!!!Mama also respected Semmangudi Mama's Vidwath and stature enough to let him be a mentor in Mami's Musical career. Mami always gratefully acknowledged Semmangudi mama's role in blending Mami's Bhakthi-laden music and the need for Azutham in her Sangeetham-- far cry from the briga-laden fireworks of the early Forties(the Saraguna Palimpa,Evari mata)--enjoyable for their briskness and clarity nonetheless but did not do justice to the Bhava-laden aspects of CM music which Semmangudi embodied(he always half-jokingly and perhaps half enviously used to tease Mami--" Unakkenna Kurai--Nee Pattuku un saareerathai vachundu janangalai utsahapadithividuvai'-- a remark that did not always sit in well with Mami(Naan evvalavu kashtapattu anda saareerathai sadakathin moolamai kondu vandirikkiren enbadhu ivarukke puriyama irukkalama)==sort of Et tu Brute kind of lament!!! back to SSI's slow influence on mama to seek Paramacharya's grace and resume the due religious rituals expected of a Brahmin-- some visible symbols like "the Tuft" sprouted along with the prominent Vibhuti with its distinct,uniform parallel lines(the secret is a 6 inch piece of string as thin as one of the strands of his poonal slightly wetted marking the three stripes-- lines drawn to perfection--I always got a kick out of watching him do this and despite several attempts to this day cannot get that evenness and paralellism!!. The poonal was restored and by now Mama was beginning to believe that mere religious unction ought not to be confused with Faith in Grace and Divinity. This also coincided with Mami getting ailments like Typhoid and other minor surgeries and people including Semmangudi Mama
nudging him towards Maha Periyaval.Anantharama Dikshithar to seek their grace.Needless to say there was no 'seminal event" or "miracle" overnight that cemented the relationship with The Seer.It was a gradual change of heart not driven by any expediency but more by conviction.

At this juncture I have heard accounts that the Paramacharya was ambivalent to confer the legitimacy because of Mami's birth. I must confess I do not have direct knowledge nor am I aware if this subject was ever referred to in our family conversations. Simultaneously(the early fifties) Mama was encountering some mild resistance from Society when he was looking for alliances for both Radha and Vijaya. All of which slowly wilted away with the Paramacharya's total conviction about Mami's God-like qualities and Bhakthi-soaked Music and devotion and when he bestowed his grace on the couple,the legitimacy had the highest seal of approval. Mami herself sincerely attributes her success and her meteoric rise in stature nationally and internationally to Paramacharya's grace and has mentioned several occasions right before a concert how her voice would just seem to disappear and her immediate prayers to Paramacharya had cleared her voice leading to key concerts' success.

The Mid Fifties saw Mama in full swing arranging a series of Discourses by Anantharama Dikshithar in Kalki Gardens with Rajaji a perennial listener-despite the "remoteness" of Kalki Gardens from the centerpiece of religious discourses--namely Mylapore or Mambalam the discourses used to attract large crowds. Mama and Mami were extraordinarily gracious and reverential towards the learned Scholar and he in turn blessed Mami wholeheartedly.

In the next couple of posts I will address Mama's relationship with the Music Academy(raised by CM lover in one of his early posts) as well as Mama's egalitarian attitudes backed by action.
To be continued!!!

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 19 Oct 2009, 11:40

MKR Sir
Nice and I especially liked the punch line of semmangudi mama "Semmangudi Mama can be very persuasive without being intrusive" and also his joking line "unakkenna kurai", perhaps did semmangudi take a dig at kurai onRum iLLai (assuming that). I never knew about sengalipuram anantharAma dikshitar connection with this family too..

Just few questions:
------------------------
I dont want to break your chronology, you can always choose to answer them at the right time.

1. While Meera must have made ms amma a national or may be an international celebrity. by any chance did that movie influence many staunch carnatic rasikas to not hear ms amma , in the sense did it back fire to a noticable extent.

2. I read somewhere some time before , that ariyakudi was slightly not happy with ms amma getting lot of attention . With musicians like ariyakudi ruling the CM with him being respected even by jambhavans like SSI, MMI and GNB and many many others , did MS amma's carnatic musical career take a beating.

Keep them coming and please also save all your mega posts in your notepad , all the anecdotes that you typed along with VKV sir can be a good biographical account , perhaps we can release that in MMI - centenary 2012

vsn207 · Post by **vsn207** » 19 Oct 2009, 17:48

Dear MKR Sir:

Happy Diwali.

Carry on the writing. This is as exciting as waiting for the next episode of Enge Brahmanan or any story in one of erswhile publications. This thread( or threads) is an unique combination of subject( two noble souls MS & TS), the episodes, the narrator( MKR- an unique witness who is objective while being sensitive as well), the narrative( personal and factual), and last but not the least, the audience from rasikas- the cream of the crop eager for history but eschewing all gossip. All this makes this thread truly unique and wonderful.

May I make a suggestion? All of these posts ought to be collated and made into a special thread- which could be the foundation for a wonderful book.

Vivek

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 19 Oct 2009, 20:25

Dear M.K.R.,
The role of Maha Periyavar was more complicated but I will not go into it on this forum especially in a public fashion. Let me only say that it does not put him in good light as they say & feelings of many likely might get hurt.......VKV

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 19 Oct 2009, 21:04

Thank you Vivek(VSN2007) for your kind words of encouragement.I noted your suggestion about collating all the posts.Unfortunately my technical ludditeness and the mulish stubbornness not to overcome the handicap,are deterrents to the idea!! Plus I have no desire to turn this into a book out of respect for Mama(TS/Mami).The only reason I am encouraged even to share these anecdotes because of the respect for the forumites(not ony in this topic or thread),whose love of Music and the personalities involved in it is truly genuine and the discourses are not only commendably civil but also equally thought-provoking. It is my sincere hope that forumites reading my posts recognize it for what it is--One person's perspective about a "larger-than-life" couple.Many of the forumites I am sure have had some close connection and contact with the couple at some point of their lives and may have their own "take" on the various subjects I have touched upon. It is also likely that some of them may have been present or read about some of the contexts I was basing my opinions on and they may have had a different(more objective than mine I concede)perspective/inference.As I have said before I am a true Micawber(eternal optimist)
(for younger forumites Micawber is a character of Dickens in his novel Oliver twist) and I tend to see the positive even in things that many people would feel negative about--that holds true for my opinions on Music as well as Musicians.If there are some discerning and discriminating,totally objective critics amongst us who would find these accounts overtly syrupy and sycophantic,so be it!!!!

Back to the narrative.
Mama and the Music Academy.
Before I delve into Mama's interaction with MA I would like to give the "backdrop" about the institution itself--the founders and the personalities that dominated the scene.My knowledge stems from my own observations during the Mid-fifties --when I was a College student --two years with Presidency College in Chennai(one of the finest periods in my life because of the total academic freedom to which VKV was a silent abettor--more on this later---and four years with Engng College in Karaikudi(Alagappa College)--the latter period still permitted me to come to Chennai at the drop of a hat--an overnight journey--to catch up with Music(Chennai was an Oasis when compared to the agriculturally and culturally backward Chettinad!!).Also augmented by my father's anecdotes(he had more than a vested interest in how MA was run because he was at the helm of affairs in Shanmukhananda Sabha in Bombay and musicians were not averse to kindling his curiosity and catering to his "schadenfraude"(silent delight at others' discomfiture!!)with tales of "alleged shenanigans ,favoritisms" at MA and how well the Sabha treats the musicians as opposed to MA. I have tried to filter out these overt biases in my assessment and views about MA.,as some of these my have been self-serving.
MA in those days especially in the forties and the fifties was "ruled" by the Mylapore,Brahmin-dominated elite,with the Late KV Krishnaswamy Iyer--an advocate if I am not mistaken--was the PRESIDENT and a dominant figure and according to several Mylaporites of those times made Hitler look like Mother Theresa!!!(Disclosure: In fairness I must confess I had no contact with the Late KVK nor even got close to him,nor did my father know him except overhear references to him by mutua
friends--so if there are relatives or friends of the KVK family my sincere apologies if they find the references unjustifiably unflattering. I feel it is important what the public perception of a public figure heading a hoary institution was at that time.

The late KVK was very punctilious in the way the Academy's affairs were conducted and went out of the way to prove that he was no Musician's patsy and that he did not discriminate no matter how senior the Vidwan may have been. It is also true that as strict as he was he was never accused of nepotism or favoritism.Given the tightness of the schedule of the MA--the discussions in the morning,the competitions in the forenoon,the 3 P.M. junior artistes performance folllowed by the 5;30 P.M. performances(main items for which lots of jockeying took place for the limited slots) and the ( 9 P.M. performances punctuated by Dwaram Solos, or Hindusthani Music(Ravi Shankar,Ratan Jankar,) or kathakalakshepam(Panni Bhai,Saraswathi Bhai, Thiruvayyaru Annaswamy Bhagavathar etc) --the last performances were attended solely by people who had their own means of transportation as others--the genuine music rasikas had to forego these sessions--no wonder they were sparsely attended. because the 'slots" were limited for the 5:30 P.M. performances, given all the older doyens(who even past their prime continued to insist on performing)insistence on singing only in the evening slot naturally forced MA to accommodate artistes like Brinda Muktha only for the 9 P.M. slot much to their displeasure and genuine feeling that the MA for all its vaunted respect for the Dhanamal School,was shortcharging them. Outside of the Musical fraternity(the Ariyakudi,Semangudi,Maharajapuram,Musiri) the other officials who were men of stature(Prof K.Chandrasekharan,Justice T.L.Venkatrama Iyer,TTK) were influential in how the MA was run and KVK deferred(never surrendered any authority!!) to their opinions about the constitution/composition of the Experts Committee which was the sole arbiter for the Sangeetha Kalanidhi in those deliberations. Suffice it to say it was an 'elite country club" with its own favorites. MA was extremely lucky in those days to have the likes of Dr.V.Raghavan the Sanskrit Scholar, Advocates like CKVenkatanarasimhan--affectionately called Babu by musicians and K.Sundarrajan and TV Rajagopalan--all were workhorses who worked very collegially and scrupulously in administering the policies laid down by the Academy Board. Now forumite may ask WHAT has all these useless trivia to do with the TS/,MA imbroglios?

TS never liked the elite nature of these institutions to begin with and felt the Non_musician personalities dominated the Institution too much.There were certain grievances he had with the Institution such as its indifference to preserve some of the shrines--like the Trinity's birthplace in Tiruvarur(he often used to muse as several musicologists have mused about the "sacredness" of that place that brought forth to the world of CM the greatest musical trinity that to this day CM can boast off! and the indifference of elite institutions like MA towards preserving such monuments
He pioneered with the Paramacharya's blessings ,the refurbishing of the houses.Ofcourse the Lalgudi trust as well as the Maharajapuram Santhanam trusts also lent great fillip to similar efforts later at the behest of Paramacharya. In one of his letters to Gowri, Mama mentions about the initiatives and humorously remarks that before the rehabilitation "the roof did not leak if it did not rain". It also did not help that KVK did not care much for TS--he is reported to have reacted to a suggestion(or edict as he may have interpreted) by TS--"Who does he think TS is--he is afterall the Husband of a musician"-whether such a remark was made or what the context was etc etc I DO NOT KNOW--but I have often heard Mama take some 'digs" in casual parlor conversations. Once there was some objection to Sivan krithis appearing in the early part of the concert(the MA dominated by Senior Musicians of the Old School did not give much credence to Sivan's Bhakthi,dvotion and sincerity in his compositions and made a tacit rule that they should be sung as Thukkadas with the Trinity's compositions dominating the lists. Mama commented where is it written that Sivan's compositions should be relegated(whether this was also due to the alleged anti-tamil bias I am not in a position to clearly equivocate on!!).Mind you Sivan was very much alive(Sivan was born the same year as Ariyakudi 1990 and there were rumors that he and Sivan did not get along--Looking back I have not heard Ariyakudi singing many Sivan songs at all in any of the concerts -atleast the ones I attended or heard tapes of--he would sing Gopalakrishna Bharathi or Arunachala kavirayar or Thruppavai--so it could not have been due to any antitamil bias on his part but he definitely seems to have eschewed Sivan's compositions. Mama also may have felt that despite his personal friendships with the likes of Semmangudi and Musiri they could have used their influence to recognize Sivan's contributions(belatedly MA honored Sivan later). Also I believe there were some schedule clashes(TS's insistence on a Sunday concert--although gate-collectionwise MS was tops,the authorities did not want to concede that lest it should infringe upon the "sovereignty" of the pristine institution!! mama was disenchanted with MA so much that he gathered other disgruntled patrons and trie to form another sbha to rival MA's hegemony-I think it was caled some Sangeetha Sbha(I forget the name -perhaps forumites like VKV who were contemporaries and who may share my comments about the MA based on their own experiences,can help me in identifying the correct name--I recall the President anointed by am was one of his friends--Mr. Satyamurthi--not the freedom fighter but a Senior Official in the Madras Corporation--I do not know how long the institution lasted-this was a setback for mam9although he did not wallow under it).needless to say there must have been some "chuckling" within the MA elites that the "mighty oak cannot be shaken".

In retrospect these are trivial incidents but at that time of intense heat and less light these incidents get blown up and subsequently rapprochement took place primarily because of the intervention of the Hindu family(KSriniasan,G Narasimhan et al) and perhaps even TTK. By the Mid Fifties these had been amicably resolved-- the MA started construction in 1955 and after 5 or 6 years the TTK hall was built and discussions took place as to who should be invited to inaugurate and who should be the lead performer-the MA authorities settled for MS much to the chagrin of doyens like Ariyakudi(who is normally a very amiable and non-controversial musician of impeccable stature but yet succumbed to the "whispers" of sycophants who claimed the decision to have MS perform at the inauguration when the doyens have toiled to serve MA right from its inception was a slap-in-the-face for Musicians like Ariyakudi. This reached such a point that there was fear that Ariyakudi and other senior musicians may even boycott the function--subsequently wiser counsels prevailed and there was unity amongst the musicians that MS's performance was the best commercial draw that the MA needed so badly!!

To my knowledge TS's relationships were very cordial especially after TTVasu took over the reigns because of the TS/TTK relationship that was not sullied in the least by TS/Rajaji's overt hostility to TTK's political/economic policies channeled thro the Swarajya magazine!! Perhaps Mama(TS) had a secret credo about his ability to Dine with the Angels and Dance with the wolves simultaneously without losing his moorings!!

To be continued!! Sorry for typos--no time to correct-have to go!!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Oct 2009, 21:17

Many thanks MKR
for clarifying MS' exit from filmdom. Many of us thought at that time that she will go big after the resounding success of Meera. Kalki also must have played a constructive role as he was building her up through the magazine. The frontispiece on the issue where TS was handing Radha in wedlock with MS by his side (dhaarai vaartthal) speaks millions about the approval of PeriyavaaL on the caste-controversy. I have heard stauch conservatives withdrawing their objections after PeriyavaaL had given the blessings.

Do continue to tell the events truthfully as a Historian (I am dissenting with VKV here) without any fear or favour. MS/TS story must be told for the posterity since they are a 'divine couples' which fate had brought together. I venture to say there would not be an MS without the efforts of TS. It is fascinating to hear about the association and influence of SSI with that family. SSI refused to cross the ocean in spite of the glitter of international fame. But then he succeeded taming TS towards brahmanic rituals and he never shunned MS which is a high mark of approval as I know how conservative SSI was! Tell us more about the Guru/Sishya relationship. Is there a 'bhavayami' story which became an instant block-buster? I am all ears for the MA/TS confrontations. I am burning to know ( as would many others) whether it was due to the anti-tamil stance of MA! Take your time and dot the i's and cross the t's!

Thank you!

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 19 Oct 2009, 23:39

Dear Ramesh,
Since you have raised the Music Academy & its affairs I feel constrined to state how ASHAMED most of us were about the SHABBY way in which not just musicians but EVEN newly crowned Sangitha Kalanidhis were treated IMMEDIATELY after the Sadas. BOTH Prof. Sambamurthy & Papanasam Sivan were just standing outside wondering how to get home; My buddy late S.S.Venkataraman & I managed to somehow solve the problem tho' we had only either walked or taken the bus or tram ourselves- one way of solving transportation after concerts problem- & other modes of getting around were equivalent to taking the Concorde!
With all that said I along with countless others SALUTE the music academy for putting carnatic music in twentieth century on a global basis; I particularly congragulate & SALUTE the current president Sri.Murali for bringing great new initiatives to the fore & Cleveland Sundaram for TRULY exposing the rest of the World thru' Cleveland Aradhana Festival- in the interests of Consumer truthfulness I confess I am one of the Aradhana Committee-; Also I find that today's promising artists like Manoj Siva & Mannarkoil Balaji have found ingenious ways like the two wheelers & are not dependent on the mercies of the organisers.....I wish some one would start a thread on what exactly Sabha Secretaries& office bearers do now a days in terms of arangements, taking care of the artistes etc....Sorry if this is tangential to the TS/MS subject but in reality most of the conflicts arose because of VERY mundane things.....VKV

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Oct 2009, 04:25

VKV
Good points and issues which ought to be discussed in a separate thread. Let us let MKR focus on MS/TS here. We may discuss MA separately and make constructive suggestions. We did have long discussions on Cleveland with you taking the brunt and if necessary we can revisit them!

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 20 Oct 2009, 09:06

I agree that the MA discussion should be separate.However I cannot but express how outraged I have been in those days at the way the MA treated MMI.MMI's eyesight had failed because of his illness so that he would have no sense of time.The 8;30 curfew for the evening concerts was rigidly and forcibly imposed on MMI-Around 8;20 P.M. or so Babu Sir would be dispatched by the late KVK to go to the front row and motion to Sri Vembu Iyer(MMI'sdisciple and brother-in-law and Father of TVS) to finish the concert-all in preparation for the 9 P.M. concert.While from an org point of view such strict adherence to schedules may have been imperative,I always felt MMI should have been given greater latitude and his Rasikas' (for whom he toiled so hard) wishes respected.
Back to the MS saga.

In 1954 when I decided to pursue my B.Sc. in Chennai in Presidency College,TS had a "brilliant" idea!!He suggested that I should move to kalki Gardens and pursue my studies and also be a mentor to his adopted son Kannakutti(as we fondly called him--his name is Thyagarajan).He was about 6/7 years younger than myself--quite a rambunctious but sweet kid and was not focussed on studies. Mama the Greatest children lover,laid the entire problem at the hands of the teacher and school and that if properly motivated thro personal attention by a mentor not much older than him he would come around. Mama did not think there would be any objection on my part-secretly I was elated at the prospect of being a part of a busy Household watching dignitaries. My mother(my father was OK with the idea) put cold water on the whole idea and used the excuse that the commute between Kilpauk and Presidency College in triplicane would be too much for me--actually that was not the real reason-she was afraid I would be severely distracted . Anyway it was decided that I would stay with my aunt in Mandaveli--being only 30 mts ride along the Marina.Mama compromised and suggested that I should come and spend the weekend with them in Kalkl Gardens coaching Kannakutty.
Accordingly I started my weekend mentoring and soon realised that I have to learn more from my 'ward' than the other way around!! Mama was secretly enjoying my discomfiture so much that on Friday evening when I arrived at the gate of Kalki gardens,Mama will stand in the open terrace watching me trek my way towards the house shouting loudly describing Kannakutty's feeling towards me thro a Tamil poem(I think it is Thayumanavar or Pattinathar I am not sure ARASI please help!!)-the poem's ines were: Vadhyar Saaharaa Vaithericchhal Theeradaa,Nedumal Thirumaruga Nitta Nittam Inda Ezhava)

O Lord,wish the Guru were dead why this daily torture.

While the experiment failed miserably-partly due to my inability to engage a bright kid thro unconventional pedagogy--the weekend visits were encouraged. These periods were blissful as it gave me an opportunity to watch Semmangudi Mama teach Mami --to visitors Mama used to introduce SSI as"Kunjamakku Pattu vadhyar Engalukku Cheettu Vadhyar(Cards).
To address CML's query about this teaching phase, I can only say never has there been a greater understanding between Teacher and Pupil. Mami was "Bhavyam" incarnate and used to wait patiently for the Cheettu Kutcheri to be over-never a grumble about having to wait for SSI to emerge from his sessions. Dakshinamurthe,O Ranga Sayee(I do not know the Bhavayami story alluded to by CML) were some of the pieces Mama (SSI) taught. Mami's grasp of Mama's Bhava-laden rendering was impeccable(SSI used to compare Mami's grasp to camphor)--Given the wide disparity in their voice structures,with Mama's reed voice overcoming his nasal inadequacies, and Mami's suswara displayed with admirable restraint(not to overshadow the Master!!). No side talks from mami--all attention and total fidelity to Mama's Patantharam--no suggestions to sing the sangathi slightly differently to suit her own style and voice felicity--when I used to comment to Mami and Radha how she can subordinate herself and her soaring ideas to the Guru, Mami would attribute it to her training by her mother at a very young age that taught her the art of listening with one's ears and total focus(oblivious to the surroundings). This was no "photo-op" gesture of humility and fidelity to the Guru but 100 % genuine.
An occasional lament from Mami to SSI to suggest to TS to let her accent on Lakshanam and Layam a little more and sing complex Pallavis--Mami was sensitive to "veiled suggestions and questions" about Mami's prowess in Layam and complex Pallavis(a la DKP and MLV).She wanted to "prove' that she could handle layam equally well and do it with Sukham as well.But SSI felt that excessive emphasis on Laya was not conducive to pleasant listening and would needlessly distract from the melody and sweetness of Mami's voice and the % of audience who were Pallavi-connoisseurs was too small . (As forumites may know SSI never attempted complex-laya-laden palavis(a la Alathur) Mami would later narrate how when she was 10 or 12 years old Mazhavarayanandal Subbarama Bhagavathar used to visit her house and listening to Mami would volunteer to teach her Pallavis and how she used to reproduce them flawlessly much to the delight of the Master(I have never heard him but several Vidwans like Palghat mani Iyer have mentioned about his Laya prowess so that any compliment from him must have been indeed high praise!!). SSI's remarkable tact and patience in slowly channelising Mami's Voice and Gnanam towards the sublime and Mami's implicit adherence to the precept enhanced Mami's latent Vidwath hundredfold--the remarkable thing about this whole process was that TS was absolutely non-interfering. That was vintage TS-- once you have put yourself in charge of the Master,there is no room or necessity for interference--consider that given TS's role in designing Mami's concerts -- the krithis, the duration of the Alapanas or Swaras etc for TS to be completely "hands off" shows remarkable restraint bolstered by the confidencehe had in SSI.

During my weekend visits when SSI visited Chennai either for concerts or marriage function(he was in Thiruvananthapuram in those days heading the Swathi Thirunal College) I would have the fortune of ministering to SSI's needs(sometime his shishya--VRK or PSN would be away on private visits to Mylapore or Mambalam). There is a front room in Kalki Gardens called the Piano Room because there was a huge Piano(Radha learnt Piano from one Mr. Vaidyanathan a born genius-I think he composed one of mami's famous songs-- Hari Thuma Haro--I think-- the song slips my memory--he was the elder brother of then-famous Tamil/Hindi Movie actor Ranjan--hailed as the Swashbuckling Errol Flynn of Indian Cinema!!)--sorry for the digression--back to the Piano rom which was occupied by Mama(SSI) during his visits--one day Mama(SSI) wanted me to do Thel Maalish(the coconut Milk treatment actually before the bath

on him which I readily obliged--it was a 20 to 30 minute application--vigorous rub of the scalp.body etc--SSI clad in one of those typical Kasi Mundu with a thin tuft on his head would squat with me behind him.Mama would launch Ramani Samana Mevaru and do neraval -Paluku Paluku laghu Thene-- forumites I get goose bumps now almost 55 years later when I think of the torrent of emotions and ecstacy he would bring out with crisp two, three,four five avarthana swarams rendered in staccato fashion unleashing a Karahapriya(his favorite raga) of inexorable force and beauty--threequarters of the way thro -- with me merely going thro the motions of massaging by now, drowned in Mama's Kalpana swaram,--- he pauses and turns around to me exclaiming "Ippidi Pada Cholluda ellaraiyum" meaning a challenge-- let anybody try singing like this--Consider the fact that there was nobodyelse in the room to even savor the music or the remark(except me a musical midget!!), it indicates HOW proud and complete he felt about himself and his musical prowess--this was spontaneity at its best both the singing part and the self-adulation(legitimate) part!!!!

More on my Kalki Gardens visits to continue---

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Oct 2009, 19:29

RMK,
Riveting stuff! You bring such rich visual and auditory images to your personal history in relation to this historic couple.
Though I have heard those lines about an unwelcome teacher (from the child's point of view, of course), I do not know the source though I know they are not from the great works you mention

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Oct 2009, 19:59

Fascinating! One question!
How come MS did not sing very many Swati kritis? SSI must have taught her umpteen number of them. Actually I would expect him to have used her to propagate very many of the Swati gems that he had unearthed. Even KVN ,sishya of ARI has sung many more! Bhavayami of course is an exception.
Can you (or others) comment?

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 20 Oct 2009, 21:12

CMLover:I am not sure your surmise is correct re: Swathi krithis--in fact no Kutcheri would be complete without Sarasaksha(Panthuvarali),Rama Rama(Simhendramadhyamam-I think this is Swathi's-forumites help!)Gopanandana(Bhushavali)--in fact in our household we used to make fun of Mami that she knows only two songs in Panthuvarali-Sarasaksha and Ennaganu because we used to be tired of hearing the same kriti--then we discovered Mama(TS) felt that because of the song's sancharas are mostly in the upper octave,(especially the Bhamini neraval),the effect with Mami's voice and Sruthisuddham would be electrifying and we felt that Mama(TS) had been vindicated.(TS absolutely would go into raptures when Mami did the "glide" from Nee to Sa and then when she touches the Upper gandharam would be bowled over!!--once he turned to me in a Kalyana Kutcheri(with unabated noise all around) and commented what divinity she shows in her rendering. Forumites as I have said repeatedly elsewhere in my posts -- all of us put together and future generations to come combined can still not overshadow Mama in his admiration and love for Mami.For all the talk of mama's sternness and mercurial temper at times towards Mami,deep down he had the greatest love for Mami--an incident --sorry for the digression CM Lover.
Mami because of her diabetes was restricted in her sugar intake--so Mama would deftly leave some coffee(when he has his second dose!!) which had sugar in it saying "Appane nee sappidu"-he simply could not bear to have sugar in his coffee when she was deprived of it and hence a little "cheating" was OK.-whenever she complained of minor ailments-Mami was a simpleton when it came to ailments and would worry over minor aches and pains--only to be "dismissed" peremptorily by those near and around her ("jokingly at your age what do you expect") as--Radha,Thangam or Vijaya. If any of us were to be around her at that time she would plaintively complain to us how indifferent these folks have become to her plight. Mama too would join the fray of "denial" in his playful mood and even further downplay the complaint much to Mami's frustration but simultaneously and unobtrusively call his "panel" of Doctors like Dr.A.Srinivasan(in my opinion a maverick of a Doctor but highly respected in the madras circles in the Fifties),or Dr.M.N.Prabhu(ENT specialist) if it is related to any ENT pain or problem.A word of comfort at that point from any one of us around her-- like" we are amazed how this ache and pain seems to vanish when you sing---would lift up Mami's spirits__Mami's famous words to me often were,"Ramesh un vaikku sakkarai podanumda" .

Back to CMLover's query about the Swati kritis /MMS/SSI nexus.

I would not venture to guess how many krithis of Swathi T , Mama taught but my own perspective is that Mama(SSI) being a shrewd judge of talent ,adaptability, and voice culture must have felt that his own style of Chowka Kala krithis in Janaranjani,Reethigowla etc may not have suited Mami's strengths and I think rather than "foist' his own imprimatur in every song on the Shishyas just because she happened to be his disciple(he definitely would not have permitted similar lattitude for his other disciples like PSN or TMT).he felt she should choose krithis that play to her strengths.As self-confident as he(SSI) was in his prowess he did not think every disciple should be a carbon copy of himself!! Beyond this observation I have nothing seminal or rigorous to offer on this issue.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 20 Oct 2009, 21:21

MKR, I am glad you mentioned about Pallavis & in general the criticism about "Layam" which in reality was more about Thalam & Kanakku on the part of those who critcised others like M.S.S, SEM & MMI etc because LAYAM as PMI has pointed out is far more fundamental & not just applicastion of high school level algebra however tough it is to implement etc. I have discused it with M.S.-and LGJ too-& the view that emerged at least for me was that lyrics, meaning & words are far more important.DKP& MLV clearly showed they were equal if not better than the so called men equivalents. As a matter of fact the prowess of M.S'S brother was known & she could have played it too at a professional level if she had wanted to.
The Pallavi of GNB was UNIQUE like everything about GNB. There was a whole school of persons who opted to the Mazhavarayal Subbarama Bhagathar's approach to Pallavi in which category M.S, SEM, MMI etc can be put into. This involved making the pallavi simple but use many ragas esp. rare ragas etc. The effort to put down successful artists took root in the complicated kanakku approach for want of a better term & found powerful spokesmen like S.B. who was good at publicity & also knew music& considered a genius by many. It is VERY unfair to have subjected great musicians like M.S. to arbitrary definitions of Layam mostly out of jealousy simply put.....VKV

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 20 Oct 2009, 21:36

MKR Sir
By any chance does Sri sadasivam mAmA sing atleast few tukkadas at home or does he atleast attempt bathroom singing . I think looking at the song list popularized by MS amma on Swati tirunal most of that she must have learned from musiri than rather semmangudi,like sArasAksha,rAmA rAmA gunasheema (is also ST only) barring bhavayAmi (perhaps may be that was the intent of cmlover's question)

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 20 Oct 2009, 22:10

Well said VKV.

There is a story about Tirukkodikaval Krishna Iyer(the great Violin maestro(1864-1914)--uncle of SSI--Guru of TNR) and Konerirajapuram Vaidyanatha Iyer(Vocal). Krishna Iyer --a contemporary of Patnam Subramania Iyer and Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer were all for temperance,simplicity in their approach to Music--translation: not too much Layam because they believed the Kanakku as VKV points out becomes all-consuming for the artist and the sukham gets relegated. However because the Laya advocates in order to strengthen their argument would "hint' this as a lame excuse offered by those who are weak in layam(it is a fact that some are extraordinarily gifted when it comes to Layam--Palghat Mani Iyer used to label it as "Brahma Layam" but that does not necessarily follow that if somebody eschews elaborate Layam he/she is weak. back to the krishna Iyer story!!

Some of detractors of Krishna Iyer deliberately "goaded" a young Konerirajapuram who was a rising star in the turn of the century(almost towards the end of Krishna Iyer) to prepare a complex Pallavi just to 'throw off" Krishna Iyer. Half way thro the Pallavi, it seems Krishna Iyer abruptly stopped playing and said "Vaitha,nee munnam ellam(before) furlongukku furlong Kal(stone) nattindu Irundey--- Ippo Milekku Mile (Mile to Mile) Kal natta thodangitteye--Nee Ippo padinaye athu ingu irikkiraval etthanai perukku puriyum(How many people in this audience understand what you are trying to do, why this complication at the expense of Sukham. I believe young Vaitha was contrite and 'toned" down his Laya escapades!!

The more complex the Pallavi the more hurried and dissonant the sahityam would sound because everything has to be subordinated to the Kanakku and the Viral(finger).
For example take the Sankeerna nadai pallavi that Alathur sang(in their last MA season kutcheri)--it was in Tisra Jathi Triputa Thala(8 beats) BUT in Sankeerna nadai(9 beats)--the Sahityam--Kadir Vadi vela unadu paadam thunaye--Or Arumugane devadi devane --try doing neraval--one extra pause or one extra phrase in the neraval would necessitate hurrying another phrase or note just to get the fingering correct(I am not a laya expert --so practitioners in the forum should excuse my lack of precision in the explanation!!)--on top of it the eduppu is also vakram --2and half beats from the samam--when you do the trikalam you would notice that some phrases have to be hurried and some have to be paused more than usual just to get it within the thalam.They-- Alathur executed flawlessly with Palghat mani Iyer rising to the heights and making that Pallavi an immortal pallavi(Forumites if you have not heard this Pallavi you should if you get an opportunity-- especially if you are interested in Pallavi.. The tailpiece to this story is that without any advance notice or preparation(Alathur and Mami Iyer had discussed this Pallavi before presentation) Lalgudi Sir "darted" in and volunteered to play the trikalam,anulomam and prathilomama and simply bowled the Academy audience with his mastery of laya and quick uptake given the limited exposure he had to configure the Pallavi.

I am not suggesting that Alathur did some wrong in singing a complex pallavi but in general an excess of emphasis on Laya detracts from the enjoyment--if you do it right most of the audience would not notice it and if you execute wrongly they would not notice the infraction either!!

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 20 Oct 2009, 23:27

rajeshnat wrote:MKR Sir
By any chance does Sri sadasivam mAmA sing atleast few tukkadas at home or does he atleast attempt bathroom singing . I think looking at the song list popularized by MS amma on Swati tirunal most of that she must have learned from musiri than rather semmangudi,like sArasAksha,rAmA rAmA gunasheema (is also ST only) barring bhavayAmi (perhaps may be that was the intent of cmlover's question)

Dear R, I just want to state for the record that T.S.in his days as Freedom Fighter used to sing patriotic songs in meetings-& was apparently quite good tho' I was too young to listen to him-
& PLEASE excuse me for referring to various unjustified criticisms of him as I feel it must be said here as we are thanks to M.K.R. finally having an AUTHENTIC & FACTUAL DISCUSSION about this great couple: Every Indian must visit the gallery at Gandhi Mandapam in Chennai- behind the bus stop- & they will see photo of T.S. as freedom fighter. Very moving as it forces one to REALISE the enormous personal sacrifices of persons like T.S. whose sacrifices we are enjoying today as a free country trying to reach its full potential.......VKV

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 20 Oct 2009, 23:42

M.K.R.,
You certainly have a way to provoke my memories& force me to write about incidents which are part of the highlights of listening to carnatic music & being involved at a certain level. REG pallavi complexity in our life time there was a similar story. Without naming the artist involved- unnecessary to name him for this story- he started a series in which he played R.T.P. WITH various PAKKAVADYAMS-mridangists in this case- & he would not disclose the Pallavi & played it only once which increased in COMPLEXITY. Of course the Mridangists fell by the way side one by one- like playing Sampras at Wimbledon-& finally the SUMMIT was reached with Palghat Mani Iyer being the finalist. The PALLAVI was as expected very complicated occupying several cycles of various variations unimaginable. When he finished playing the Pallavi Mani Iyer as HE ONLY CAN repeated the cycle with his own embellishments; The artist was so shocked he could not continue! Then PMI took the mike & said: XXXXXXX (his nickname) If the main artist discussed what pallavi he was going to play before the concert the accompaniments can enhance& embellish the performance & stopped in his usual one sentence cryptic fashion, END OF STORY.....VKV

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 21 Oct 2009, 23:42

MS/TS Saga(contd)

My reference to SSI's and Mami's feelings and thoughts on Pallavi Competence,was to (1) acknowledge that there were whispers about their ability(More extolling others' than putting them down) and how they reacted to what they believed to be unjustified perception on the part of others. It got sidetracked into(my fault!!) some historical retrospective Re; how laya was perceived decades go and we veered from the subject. So back to the narrative.

I had alluded in one of my recent posts about my stint at Presidency College and had made a reference to VKV and said I would revert to it now!! This is something I have never shared with VKV over the last forty years I have known him.Hope this does not embarrass him(actually he should be proud )!!This story has NOTHING to do with the TS/MS Saga!!

VKV was a Demonstrator(Physics Lab) when I was doing my B.Sc. with Math as Main and Physics/Chemistry as subsidiaries as they were called in those days. They had Honors Degree programs(3 years after Intermediate-there was no PUC those days). Not all Colleges in Chennai had Honors programs in all the subjects-example Vivekananda and Christian College in Tambaram had Physics,Loyola/Vivekananda had Math--Presidency Colege was one exception in the sense that it had Honors programs in all the Main subjects--Science,Economics, Language etc. It had also 15 or more B.Sc. programs with all kinds of permutation combinations--Math/Phy/Chemistry,Phy/Chem/Math etc etc. Honors programs were dificult to get into because of the limited # of seats and so when you chooses B.Sc. and then opts for Presidency and that too opts further for Math as the Principal clearly that student has studies as the last thing in mind--Princes of Presidencies --a self-styled pejorative I may add- when askede WHY I joined Presidency Colege(especially from Bombay) I used to facetiously remark"because it is the only college in Chennai which has SEA Breeze and SHE Breeze(Presidency and Pachaiyyapas were the only TWO Co-ed institutions those days!! Now what has this to do with VKV and myself.

So given the low hierarchy of a B.Sc program,and that too Math being even lower,there was very little incentive to take the program seriously. So cutting classes even in your Main subjects was quite common--add to it the fact that the class size was small(we were 13 students in the B.Sc Math program!!).Physics as a subject was sparsely attended but we never missed VKV's Physics Lab class as he was liberal and free(unlike the starched coat-and-tie automatons). Once we had to attend a Cricket match(intercollegiate between Vivekanada and Pachaiyappas.

To be continued--
P.S.have to rush[