Infinite frequencies between two swarasthanas

makham · Post by **makham** » 20 Oct 2009, 22:28

"He taught me the significance of anuswaras and how between shudhdha madhyamam and prati madhyamam we can have infinite madhyamams" - makham on william Skelton

"I have some thoughts to share about this but this is not the right thread, we will pick this back up elsewhere at a different time" - vasanthakokilam

Here is the new thread started where you can post your views. The background to the discussion with Prof Skelton went as under (remember it was 1968)

Musical notes are a continuum modeled for convenience as a straight line. Again, for the ease of documentation, some points on the line are tagged and given names - shudhdha rishabha, panchama etc. Thus we approximate a continuous variable by discrete variables ( 16 swaras or 22 swaras - a finite number in place of infinity). Discrete sampling of a continuous spectrum has its limitations.

During the morning session on that day someone had claimed that he had constructed a further 72 melakartha ragas by introducing a swarasthana just below panchama.

According to mathematics, there are infinite real numbers between any two real numbers however close they may be. Thus our swarasthanas and notations are only approximate. A digital computer can only deal with discrete variables .Making the computer learn that the frequency of a swarasthanam in one raga could be different from the frequency of the same swarasthanam ( as per notation) in another raga would be difficult.

Needless to say that in 1968 I got convinced of the above argument.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Oct 2009, 08:51

makham:

Thanks for starting the thread. Hope others more knowledgeable than me also pitch in.

Regarding infinite frequencies, we do not have to explore further if that is meant to be metaphorical.

But if it was meant in a serious and literal way, let us examine it a bit.

Yes it is true that there are infinite real numbers between any two numbers. Pleasant music is about ratios of frequencies and not just frequencies. And we know that not all ratios are musical, let alone ratios that are infinitesimally separated.

One can make the case that when you make a smooth transition from one steadily held swara to another steadily held swara, you are traversing infinite frequencies. That is fine but those intermediate points are not necessarily swarasthanas.

makham · Post by **makham** » 21 Oct 2009, 21:59

What governs whether a ratio is musical - physics or aural experience?

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 22 Oct 2009, 00:48

The aural experience appears to be related to the Fibinocchi series as well as harmonic relationships. For example the "Golden Ratio" appears to be valid for music, paintings & various other areas. How it's related to Physics is not yet clearly established. VKV

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 22 Oct 2009, 07:19

I think the aural aspect is more discernible than the physics part.The rishabam in Saveri is sometimes sung a notch lower than the suddha rishabam and I read somewhere that it is called Ekasruthi Riashabam.The fact that there is a shadhsruthi rishabam implies that there are three more anuswaras sandwiched between the three known rishabams(suddha rishabam,chatusruthi rishabam and Shadsruthirishabam. One has to strain to distinguish the Ekasruthi rishabam in Saveri or in Panthuvarali as well--GNB used to accent this rishabam in both ragas but tryng to bring out the anuswaras is very difficult .Even if the musician manages to bring it out flawlessly,our ears may not be trained enough to note the subtlety. Mathematically the intermediate frequencies are complex fractions not detectable aurally. Ultimately whether the music sounds good and soothing is the sole test/

SSI used to knock down these kinds of theoretical discussions and he felt that they are unnecessary and detract from an aesthetic enjoyment!!!

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 22 Oct 2009, 07:27

Ou guru used to say that as per Thanjavur Shri Shankara Iyer, in sAvEri, 'sA itself is ri-sAvE ri'.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 22 Oct 2009, 08:41

SSI was quite correct! When I was learning music-probably a shock to M.K.R.?!- Iwas very much into theory so much I could only find the MISTAKES every one made & never enjoyed the concerts. I finally made the switch after reading that the best creativity & insights when the mind is totally blank& relaxed.....Ever since I have been a happy man tho' not necessarily smart!....VKV

Radhika-Rajnarayan · Post by **Radhika-Rajnarayan** » 22 Oct 2009, 15:37

In one of the Karnataka Gana Kala Parishat's conferences, Dr S Ramanathan gave a beautifully illustrative and illuminative demo on all the 22 srutis as applied in the present-day music. He specifically sang the ekasruti rishabha as in Saveri, and all the other notes, giving examples of each, with a raga where it is used.
That explanation is etched in my memory and I do not have any doubts now about the practical application of the 22 srutis.
I also think, pardon my ignorance of Physics, that these 22 srutis are probably the ones that can be clearly discerned by the normal (musical) human ear, as separate notes.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 22 Oct 2009, 20:56

In terms of physics infinite frequencies are possible; Actually in our music the twenty two frequencies are the MAIN ones & other ever so slightly different ones can arise due to ornamentation+ historical reasons of ways a particular ragas developed & are accepted. In western music other frequencies than the twenty two have been used in an experimental fashion but the Majority acceptance still appears to be twenty two. It boils down to what notes are considered musical....VKV

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 22 Oct 2009, 21:16

Radhika--I beg to differ- it is very difficult to decipher some of the anuswaras because they are close to the ones preceding it and the ones following it. That is the reason a melakartha raga like Mararanjani or Sulini---despite its "completeness with regard to the seven notes and that too Krama Sampurnam--- is not as popular as an audava raga(5 swaras) like Mohanam or Hindolam or Hamsadhwani. Ragas with the Sa Ga(anthara gandharam) Ma(suddha Madhyamam) Pa are soothing(again this is purely a personal aesthetics preference--I do not claim any scientific rigor for this oobservation!!). -Bahudhari,Nagaswarali. are good examples.

Echoing VKV's observation I went thro a similar phase when I was young when I thought being able to recite the Melakarta Ragas in order and spelling out the notes for each raga was a titillating exercise and constituted knowledge of CM. After a # of "kuttu:(knock on the head!) sessions from the giants like GNB,SSI and Musiri,I stopped.(Musiri when I once asked him about one of these issues,he lowered his specs and glowered at me saying Avasiyam Teriyanuma(Do you really have to know?). Now younger forumites might think this was too condescending a response to an inquisitive enquiry.In retrospect I have enjoyed hemavathi better now than before when I used to constantly have Karaharapriya in mind and "fear" for the artiste that he/she may be forced to stray because of the "switch" in one swara(Suddha Madhyamam vs. Prathi Madhyamam ) ..Lakshanam is not that important for enjoyment--even for a performer a firm anchor in lakshanam is a must but lakshyam has to override lakshanam.!!

SSI used to say when I once asked him about one of the legendary stories of Saint Thyagraja about the story of the dead boy being revived back to life when the Saint sang the Bilahari krithi-- Na Jeevadara(Forumites may be aware this krithi--especially when played on the violin--as Lalgudi Sir used to play often- has several strands of sangathis even in the pallavi).

SSI debunked the story saying if you he had sung so many sangathis,what little life the boy may have had would be snuffed out(Irukkira Usirum Poyudum!!!)

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 23 Oct 2009, 06:34

Once when I was discussing the intricacies of Talaprastara with Mysore Prof. R.Sathyanarayana accidentally the topic took a turn towards 22 Shrutis and he found fault with my modern division, 1-4-4-4-1-4-4, of 22 Shrutis which I have already learnt from the books of Prof. P. Sambamoorthy and others. Then, when I have inquisitively requested him to briefly define the 22 Shrutis for me he explained me excellently with the help of a Veena, a measuring cloth-scale and a calculator. Surprisingly, he practically brought out all these 22 frequencies and its relevancy with our practical music and also proved that the modern division is absolutely incorrect. That is why this irrelevant and incorrect modern division has nowhere been mentioned in ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“Sangeeta Sampradaya PradarshiniÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢. And Prof. R.Sathyanarayana told me that he had also demonstrated the same to his close friend Dr.S.Ramanathan. As Dr. S.Ramanathan is aware of it he would have demostrated it successfully. But, as the present day musicologists are not at all aware of it and, more over, as some of the modern musicologists are more fluent in English language than with the true subject they are used to cry aloud in English and others believe them just like many of the news-persons who are more fluent in English than in music but give beautiful reports upon various music-concerts irrespective of their quality. amsharma

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 23 Oct 2009, 06:43

msakella wrote:Once when I was discussing the intricacies of Talaprastara with Mysore Prof. R.Sathyanarayana accidentally the topic took a turn towards 22 Shrutis and he found fault with my modern division, 1-4-4-4-1-4-4, of 22 Shrutis which I have already learnt from the books of Prof. P. Sambamoorthy and others. Then, when I have inquisitively requested him to briefly define the 22 Shrutis for me he explained me excellently with the help of a Veena, a measuring cloth-scale and a calculator. Surprisingly, he practically brought out all these 22 frequencies and its relevancy with our practical music and also proved that the modern division is absolutely incorrect. That is why this irrelevant and incorrect modern division has nowhere been mentioned in ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“Sangeeta Sampradaya PradarshiniÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢. And Prof. R.Sathyanarayana told me that he had also demonstrated the same to his close friend Dr.S.Ramanathan. As Dr. S.Ramanathan is aware of it he would have demostrated it successfully. But, as the present day musicologists are not at all aware of it and, more over, as some of the modern musicologists are more fluent in English language than with the true subject they are used to cry aloud in English and others believe them just like many of the news-persons who are more fluent in English than in music but give beautiful reports upon various music-concerts irrespective of their quality. amsharma

Sir can you please share the information with us as much as possible through this medium?
Thanks.

Radhika-Rajnarayan · Post by **Radhika-Rajnarayan** » 23 Oct 2009, 10:57

Sri Ramasubramaniam - take the example of Nattai which also has 2 closely spaced notes, and yet is popular. It is more about ow a raga is popularised, how it is treated to sound attractive. The kriti in Sulini 'Praananaatha biraana brovave' (Tyagaraja) is so beautiful, using the shatsruti rishabham at the appropriate sahitya.

Then there is Gaanamoorthe. Absolutely haunting.

Both are very popular. Why? Because they have been explored, and the imagination allowed to flow. Other ragas too, once they are used more in concerts, can be popular.

Radhika-Rajnarayan · Post by **Radhika-Rajnarayan** » 23 Oct 2009, 10:59

Rasika911- a very thorough piece of research has been done on 22-srutis, using a veena developed for the purpose, by the late Pt Lalmani Mishra of Varanasi. You can read in detail about it at http://www.omenad.net

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 23 Oct 2009, 11:24

Isn't the saveri RSabham a eka-and-a-half-sruti rSabham. the gowla ri is ekasruthi, if I am not mistaken; and saveri ri is definitely higher than gowla ri..

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 23 Oct 2009, 19:55

Dear brother-member, Rasika911, It is a demonstration of 22 Shrutis (4-3-2-4-4-3-2) held by Mysore Dr. R.Sathyanarayana and I shall certainly demonstrate the same at any time if you fix a convenient place and time along with a Veena, a measuring cloth-scale and a calculator. amsharma