Casting a spell: Aruna Sayeeram, Bharat Sangeet Utsav, Nov 9

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 10 Nov 2009, 06:58

Aruna Sayeeram - Vocal
Padma Sankar - Violin
N. Ramakrishnan - Mridangam
S. V. Ramani - Ghatam

The tukkada section featured:

Abhang - Brindabani with a foray into Sohoni, ending with a rhythmic chanting of 'Vittala Vittala Vittala Vittala'.
Madu Meikkum Kanne
Vishamakkara Kannan
Snake Dance Song aka Kalinga Narthana Thillana.

The whole thing cast a voodoo spell on the audience who were turned into zombies, clapping to the chant of 'Vittala Vittala'. I briefly considered getting up and dancing in the space between the VIP row and the stage but restricted admission to the Donor Section would have prevented me from doing it anyway.

I know how I can be stopped if I ever attempt to take hostages. Play these four songs and it would have the same effect as a stun grenade or a concussion bomb on me and the police would have no problem walking calmly in and arresting me who would be lying prone on the floor unable to comprehend what hit me.

You may ask, dear Readers -- and you have a right to know -- why I went to this concert.

All in the interests of sociological research.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 10 Nov 2009, 07:06

Harimau
In the interest of sociological research, did arunA interact with audience for every song , one of the forumites who sat with me in the earlier manasi concert told me that it is listeners request.

What about the songs before her slog overs-power play??

S V ramani instead of S. V. Murali must have been the ghatam player.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 10 Nov 2009, 07:44

rajeshnat wrote:Harimau
In the interest of sociological research, did arunA interact with audience for every song , one of the forumites who sat with me in the earlier manasi concert told me that it is listeners request.

What about the songs before her slog overs-power play??

S V ramani instead of S. V. Murali must have been the ghatam player.

Corrected the name of the ghatam player.

Now, people would believe me when I said that I was stunned by this aural experience -- I hate to call this a kutcheri.

The concert was billed as Listeners' Choice and people were encouraged to submit requests in advance. Smt. Sayeeram indicated that she would accept requests from the audience and thus the concert would be entirely unplanned. However, enough requests had come in for the Snake-Dance Song and other tukkadas that there was no need for the audience to request them, except perhaps to request an encore! Because of the latehour, folks had the sense not to request encores; they were concerned about getting home after 9:30 pm, I would presume.

Other songs, as fare as I can recall, were:

Kalyana Rama - Hamsanadam
??? - Atana
Alavathennalo - Pharaz
Sri Sathyanarayanam - Sivapantuvarali

In supreme but unconscious irony,

Chakkani Raja - Kharaharapriya.

I am sure there were others. But I remain stunned and barely conscious even now.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 10 Nov 2009, 10:10

Dinamani vamsa was sung as the 2nd item, do not remember Atana.

Actually everything until the main was quite good - one wished for some neraval but otherwise it was good. The slokam to start the concert and the pattinathaar virutham before the pharaz piece were excellent. The kharaharapriya alapana started well but was cut short in about a minute rather abruptly and the "party"ing began

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 10 Nov 2009, 11:35

Moral of the story: Sociologists who observe others swooning / turning into zombies after consuming the local folksy brew should avoid partaking of it themselves...Prevents an objective or even factual recollection of events that preceded it

Of course by that point it may have been "too late" since it is more like something in the air than something actually drunk volitionally! Time to choose another career?!

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 10 Nov 2009, 12:21

sureshvv wrote:Dinamani vamsa was sung as the 2nd item, do not remember Atana.

The slokam to start the concert and the pattinathaar virutham before the pharaz piece were excellent. The kharaharapriya alapana started well but was cut short in about a minute rather abruptly and the "party"ing began

Suresh
Was the pattinathAr virutham "Kallaa pizhaiyum karutha pizhaiyum".

You had two back to back khara khara priyA krithis as your savouries(rama nee yeda and chakkani rAja ), intermediately I think there was bOndA in the canteen outside , so in short 3 savouries (sorry I could not join you in your bondA , I was just recuperating from a slight fever which in first place pulled me to hear the concert of manasi).

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 10 Nov 2009, 12:31

rajeshnat wrote:
Suresh
Was the pattinathAr virutham "Kallaa pizhaiyum karutha pizhaiyum".

Yes. That sounds like it.

intermediately I think there was bOndA in the canteen outside

Nope. Changed my mind and being the quintessential Southie enamored with all things North of the Vindhyas went with Samosa instead

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Nov 2009, 20:02

Oh no... not him again...

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 10 Nov 2009, 21:29

harimau is back to have a go at his favourite mrudangam artists i guess .. are these warm ups by any chance ?

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 11 Nov 2009, 10:20

She is one of the example of how an artist lower her level of presentation to cater to lower level knowledged audience. I first listened to her in MA and simply was mesmerised 4 years back. That was a Bairavi , Upacharamulae and then the same year in Bharthiya vidya bahavan (no seat available) listening to Ka va va.

Not only her tukkada section , Looks like , even now she seems to be singing the same in the non tukkada section also. I listened to her last year in Dallas and the trend is same. And for people who are looking for new songs, unheard songs, variety in raga she is not the right artist. She caters to them, a bigger audience, a crowd puller of different format. But for those beginers who remains beginers for years (due to various reasons), she remains an artist of CM they can understand.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Nov 2009, 13:00

Rajgalan,
While I understand your reaction to the tukkaDA 'session', I do feel that if such concerts bring new listeners to CM, as rasikAs we have to welcome them and hope that they will not remain beginners but will get more into CM--at least some of them. One thing leads to another, and they might develop more interest in it as they keep listening to more music. For instance, there may be occasions when the newbies come early to a tukkaDa-heavy concert and get to hear and like another singer whom other experienced rasikAs favor. They interest in CM might grow. This does happen, as we have heard from fellow rasikAs from time to time.
Calling them 'a different mass' is not encouraging at all, I'm afraid.

Harimau,
Pardon me, but what really made you go to the concert in the first place and stay there the whole time? Sociological research you say!
Truly, it wasn't as if gladiators were featured in the program

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 11 Nov 2009, 20:27

arasi wrote:Rajgalan,
While I understand your reaction to the tukkaDA 'session', I do feel that if such concerts bring new listeners to CM, as rasikAs we have to welcome them and hope that they will not remain beginners but will get more into CM--at least some of them. One thing leads to another, and they might develop more interest in it as they keep listening to more music. For instance, there may be occasions when the newbies come early to a tukkaDa-heavy concert and get to hear and like another singer whom other experienced rasikAs favor. They interest in CM might grow. This does happen, as we have heard from fellow rasikAs from time to time.
Calling them 'a different mass' is not encouraging at all, I'm afraid.

m

I agree with you. I used to be one for 20 years due to studies,job. The person that I was hooked to
was MMI, MSS, Yesudas, Kunnakudi and soem carnatic based Ilayaraja music. The word is changd.

Sumathish · Post by **Sumathish** » 11 Nov 2009, 21:34

The atANA piece was rAma nAmamu janma rakshaka mantram - the beautiful 'Madurai Somu song'. Also there were ayyE mettha kadinam and enna kavi pAdinAlum.
These are for records.

Now about the event, there was no interaction except she announced that the main piece would be short since the programme started late. The irony is that the main piece Kharaharapriya did not have a alApana!
It was a thukkadA concert as a whole.

My next seat mama was restless towards the end - mAdu innum varaliyE?! - he wondered. He meant mAdu mEykkum kaNNE... Finally he said pAmbu vandhE AgaNum ippo!

It was like a rock show! Geetha Raja listened to the concert sitting at the extreme last row and walked out before the Tillana.
A maami in the lobby was remembering Aruna and Geetha duet concerts at the Music Academy decades ago which used to be clean and aesthetic!

I am afraid of only one thing. In future common man should not think that Aruna's music is the 'real' Carnatic music and what veterans like R. K. Srikantan, R. Vedavalli sing is 'light' music.

She honoured the requests of the rasikas on that day. One more request Madam, please do not push your rasikas in the same big pit and bury their tastes and knowledge level at that

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Nov 2009, 22:42

I still hold that it is not as if there happens to be just one female CM singer on earth that classically-oriented (some fiercely so) CM rasikAs have to panic. How many more are out there--wanting more listeners at their concerts! Does Chennai not offer another CM concert at the same time, even close by for them to go to? While some may hold the view that AS could be singing in her old classical mode, she may have her own reasons for the switch. Those of us who still like her older concerts can listen to her earlier singing to our heart's content. We do not question vocalists who have lost their voices saying: how dare you? It so happens that musicians do evolve (but for those who serve the same warmed-up fare) and for heavens sake, they can choose the way they want to go! They are not our court singers and we are not royalty (except some of us in our mere names!) to command them to change their ways.

bhavarasa · Post by **bhavarasa** » 12 Nov 2009, 06:18

Better Aruna Sayeeram than watching Sun(n) TV. yEthO nAlu pAttu - Classical or Folk or Semi-Classical or whatever it might be - kAthula vizhunthA seri.

Sumathish · Post by **Sumathish** » 12 Nov 2009, 09:33

arasi wrote:I still hold that it is not as if there happens to be just one female CM singer on earth that classically-oriented (some fiercely so) CM rasikAs have to panic.

Of course, no need to panic with just one singer. But 'inspired' by the huge turnout of audience in AS' concerts, I observe a few other singers, especially females singers try to adopt similar patterns and renditions, which takes CM nowhere.

arasi wrote: It so happens that musicians do evolve (but for those who serve the same warmed-up fare) and for heavens sake, they can choose the way they want to go!

Now evolving has stagnated in AS'. The list of songs is almost the same in all her concerts now.
Also musicians are not our court singers. But as performers in public - not just musicians, any artist ot publisher for that matter - they all have a responsibility towards the art / profession they perform and towards values imbibed by their gurus / mentors.

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 12 Nov 2009, 10:36

arasi wrote:...While some may hold the view that AS could be singing in her old classical mode, she may have her own reasons for the switch. Those of us who still like her older concerts can listen to her earlier singing to our heart's content. We do not question vocalists who have lost their voices saying: how dare you? It so happens that musicians do evolve (but for those who serve the same warmed-up fare) and for heavens sake, they can choose the way they want to go! They are not our court singers and we are not royalty (except some of us in our mere names!) to command them to change their ways.

Well said...an artiste cannot try to satisfy everyone at the same time. During the 2007 music season, I was present at two concerts on consecutive days by the same artiste. The first concert, which appealed to a wider spectrum of rasikas was to a packed to hall, with 900+ listeners. The second, an exclusive RTP concert, saw less than two dozen rasikas in the hall. As far as the artiste was concerned both were satisfying concerts. The variable factor are the rasikas who vote with their feet.

IMHO, there is not going to be any dilution or corruption of anyones taste by inclusion of light pieces in a concert. Whatever Smt. Sairam sings, she sings competently, the thorough professional that she is. If one does not fall within the spectrum of the intended audience, one simply does not show up... Packing one's songlist with scholarly kritis and RTP and then rendering them with poor vocalisation and mediocre aesthetics does not do CM any favour and only serves to repel more potential listeners.

The Three Tenors series featuring Pavarotti, Domingo, and Carreras also received its share of contempt from "serious" opera lovers. However noone can deny the boost it gave to opera by drawing in new listeners. The difference there is, there are great (quality-driven) institutions in the US like the Met, Lyric, SFO etc. who provide a professionally managed and financially viable ecosystem for regular, traditional formats (that have remained unchanged for centuries!).

perarulalan · Post by **perarulalan** » 12 Nov 2009, 11:08

Sumathish wrote:
Now evolving has stagnated in AS'. The list of songs is almost the same in all her concerts now.
Also musicians are not our court singers. But as performers in public - not just musicians, any artist ot publisher for that matter - they all have a responsibility towards the art / profession they perform and towards values imbibed by their gurus / mentors.

I am no diehard fan of AS. But just my two cents- Haven't we seen the songlist remaining stagnant even in concerts of stalwarts? MMI,SSI, MSS have almost had their songlist the same. We never had any problems with them! In fact we keep listening to them. However, in the case of present day artistes, it is only the tukkadas that remain the same. Haven't we heard MSS singing kurai ondrum illai or MMI singing eppo varuvaro or SSI's sakhi prana often or Maharajapuram Santhanam singing Bho Shambo? If these people can sing for the mass, my feeling is that, there is nothing wrong if the present day artistes sing for mass too. This atleast attracts more crowd towards CM. When we just got initiated to CM, how many of us would have actually gone to listen an artiste sing RTP in Kaikavasi? or RTP in Garudadwani? When we were beginners we looked for tukkadas that would give goosebumps. For connoisseurs, there are always artistes like RKS, Smt Parasala Ponnamal, Smt Vedavalli. There is no point in purposefully attending a concert, knowing pretty much that he/she has no taste for a particular artiste, and then blaming them for not giving anything new in the concert !!!

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 12 Nov 2009, 11:14

Always_Evolving wrote:
Moral of the story: Sociologists who observe others swooning / turning into zombies after consuming the local folksy brew should avoid partaking of it themselves...Prevents an objective or even factual recollection of events that preceded it

Of course by that point it may have been "too late" since it is more like something in the air than something actually drunk volitionally! Time to choose another career?!

Carlos Juan Finlay, a Cuban doctor and scientist, first proposed in 1881 that yellow fever is transmitted by mosquitoes rather than direct human contact. Major Walter Reed, M.D., was a U.S. Army surgeon who led a team that confirmed Finlay's theory. This risky but fruitful research work was done with human volunteers, including some of the medical personnel, such as Clara Maass
and Jesse William Lazear, who allowed themselves to be deliberately infected and died of the virus.

Dr Barry Marshall proved that H. pylori caused gastic inflammation by deliberately infecting himself with the bacterium. The Nobel citation praises the doctor(s) for their tenacity, and willingness to challenge prevailing dogmas.

All I can say is that sociological research into the decline of Carnatic Music must be investigated as rigorously as yellow fever and peptic ulcers. There may be no Nobel Prize in it for anyone but hopefully a few readers will appreciate the sacrifices endured by researchers.

ganeshkant · Post by **ganeshkant** » 12 Nov 2009, 11:14

Perarulalan,

I fully agree with you and I just follow whatever you have advocated.

arunsri · Post by **arunsri** » 12 Nov 2009, 11:20

what an irony that chakkani rAja mArgamu was sung as the main piece, in a concert where only lanes and bylanes of CM were presented.

perarulalan: In defence of the song lists of MMI, MSS, SSI etc.... their execution of the pre - tukkada section of the concert [or upto the pallavi] would be top notch. That part would constitute 2.5 to 3 hrs of chaste carnatic music. The last half hour to 40 mins would be "tukkadas" for lack of a better word, which would still be classy. There would be sincerity in every rendition. Look at their lists - it would have minimum of 4 raga alapanas, atleast 2 neravals,

AS's music does not have any such weight. Her renditions UPTO and inculding the so called RTP are also Bhajanai. If I am say it point blank - she LACKS sincerity, she takes audience tastes for granted - wherever be the concert - Music Academy, Dallas, Paris or Erode. She thinks the audience knows only so much and can get away with it. Your point of "educating" the audience or drawing more people to CM is well taken, but as a "teacher" or one who facilitates learning, the bar has to be progressively raised, not lowered. Here, she lowers the bar for herself, how can we expect her to "educate" soemone. With time, audience's expectations of CM will only be at the level of Aruna Sairam.

I hope other younsters who want to take CM as a profession or even a hobby do NOT EMULATE Aruna Sairam.

I am not apologetic for this post. I hope she reads it and realises what many people feel about her music. I DO NOT attend Aruna's concert, had the misfortune of attending one ay Pittsburgh Temple for lack of any other music at that time of the year. These comments are based on that one concert, and reviews/songlists seen and read over the last several years.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Nov 2009, 11:51

Ravi the medicine man and Prashant (they don't believe in such sociological research and sacrifices ) aren't here to say--don't feed the troll!
I should learn to listen to them

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 12 Nov 2009, 12:29

arunsri wrote:...
I hope other younsters who want to take CM as a profession or even a hobby do NOT EMULATE Aruna Sairam.
...

If indeed there are any youngsters bold (rash?) enough to consider CM as a profession (as opposed to something on the side in addition to a dayjob which seems to be the prevailing model), it will probably be thanks to the success of *professional* artistes like Smt. Sairam. Whom hobbyists emulate or do not emulate is inconsequential as they are not the ones who will sustain CM.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Nov 2009, 12:43

Aruna Sayeeram is an immensely competent musician who knows how to present the CM songs to her loyal audiences. It is a perfectly honorable thing to do. All the power to her.

>Packing one's songlist with scholarly kritis and RTP and then rendering them with poor vocalisation and mediocre aesthetics
>does not do CM any favour and only serves to repel more potential listeners

True and obviously so. ( though, as we discussed before, in CM there is an audience for the message even if the medium is not perfect )

But if we are compelled to state it, for completeness sake, we should also state without any ambiguity and reservation that rendering Great krithis in a diluted manner with great vocalization and aesthetics does not do CM any favor either.

So what we need is Great krithis and RTPs presented with the required heavy touch with great vocalization and Aesthetics. That is not asking for a lot from professional musicians. Is that really in short supply today?

Let us encourage and promote such artists and attend their concerts in big numbers wherever and whenever we find them. As Rasikas, that is the best contribution we can provide for CM.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 12 Nov 2009, 12:51

karthikbala wrote:
If indeed there are any youngsters bold (rash?) enough to consider CM as a profession (as opposed to something on the side in addition to a dayjob which seems to be the prevailing model), it will probably be thanks to the success of *professional* artistes like Smt. Sairam. Whom hobbyists emulate or do not emulate is inconsequential as they are not the ones who will sustain CM.

Professional Carnatic musicians:

Dr N Ramani - No day job
Lalgudi Sri Jayaraman - No day job
M S Gopalakrishnan - No day job
M S Anantharaman - No day job
M Chandrasekharan - No day job
T N Seshagopalan - No day job
T V Sankaranarayanan - No day job
P S Narayanaswamy - No day job
T M Krishna - No day job
Sanjay Subramanian - No day job now, after he became sure about his career
Sikkil Gurucharan - No day job

I don't think anybody can call a single member of the above list a "hobbyist in music".

On the other hand, females who have a reasonable right to expect that their husbands will put food on the table and provide a roof over their heads seem to be bent on cheapening Carnatic Music.

And they actually draw your support?

Let me make a guess regarding your profession: you are an IT Professional. It is the hallmark of Indian software engineers to fail to draw correct conclusions or to analyze the situation correctly.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Nov 2009, 13:02

harimau: Do not make this into a male-female thing or cast dispersions on the IT profession as a whole or question the reasoning ability of our members just because they happen to hold a different point of view than yours. That is very immature.

You wrote 'females' instead of 'female artists' and let me give you the benefit of the doubt that you meant the latter. And that tasteless remark reflects on you poorly.

I have to loudly wonder why you can not conduct a normal conversation, discussion or argument without any drama and that too on a topic that has been discussed to death so many times in the past.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Nov 2009, 13:43

bhavarasa wrote:Better Aruna Sayeeram than watching Sun(n) TV. yEthO nAlu pAttu - Classical or Folk or Semi-Classical or whatever it might be - kAthula vizhunthA seri.

Misunderstood, so deleted post content

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Nov 2009, 13:44

vasanthakokilam wrote:I have to loudly wonder why you can not conduct a normal conversation, discussion or argument without any drama and that too on a topic that has been discussed to death so many times in the past.

It is the discussing to death that interests him.

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 12 Nov 2009, 13:57

harimau wrote: ...
I don't think anybody can call a single member of the above list a "hobbyist in music".

On the other hand, females who have a reasonable right to expect that their husbands will put food on the table and provide a roof over their heads seem to be bent on cheapening Carnatic Music.

And they actually draw your support?
...

I think it is telling that only 2 out of your 11 examples are from the current generation. Place this in the context of the large population of "performers" we have today and a more honest analysis is possible.

I had already made the same point of skewed gender ratio in another thread, which is likely the result of amateurs and hobbyists queering the pitch. But no, I do not consider any of the female artistes who have successful performing careers today as being anything other than complete professionals. Some of these "females" do indeed possess other professional qualifications with far more lucrative career options. Safety-net or no safety-net, they should be appreciated for taking CM as a *full-time* profession.

Yes any artiste who can get people to turn up in large numbers at a classical concert (even if it isn't classical enough for you or a few others) has my respect and support. It is an oversimplification and grossly unfair to blame an individual artiste for audience tastes and preferences. Vote with your feet, and don't grudge other listeners their right to do the same. I myself very rarely sit through the tukkada portion of a concert. I have seen concerts publicised as "tukkada-only" concerts. While I wouldn't attend them myself, I see no reason to take exception and they may be eminently enjoyable in their own way.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 12 Nov 2009, 14:53

I'm with harimau's last post.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 12 Nov 2009, 15:03

nick H wrote:
bhavarasa wrote: Better Aruna Sayeeram than watching Sun(n) TV. yEthO nAlu pAttu - Classical or Folk or Semi-Classical or whatever it might be - kAthula vizhunthA seri.
Please exclude Folk, at least, from such lists. It needs encouraging, not discouraging.

Nick, she meant let's at least listen to Aruna Sayeeram for whatever music she sings, classical, folk or semi-classical, instead of sitting at home and watching Sun TV.

Since I know both English and Tamil, and have read the whole thing, I can't imagine how it'll look to me if I didn't know Tamil.

melakartha · Post by **melakartha** » 12 Nov 2009, 15:05

@harimau:

This is such a cheap and preposterous remark. Just because you have a comp and fingers to type, you should not type whatever comes to your mind. How can one generalize all "females" (female artists) that way?
You mean to say the likes of Bombay Jayashri, Sudha Raghunathan, Sowmya, Jayanthi Kumaresh, Neela Ramgopal, M S Sheela, Ranjani-Gayatri etc----none of whom also ahve day jobs and all of whom also have husbands who "put food on the table" and "provide a roof" are cheapening music standards? What gives you the right to write such nonsense?
Disgusting!

And i wonder what gives you the right to also draw conclusions on "Indian software professionals" and their lack of analytical skills.

~Ramabadran

perarulalan · Post by **perarulalan** » 12 Nov 2009, 15:16

harimau wrote: Let me make a guess regarding your profession: you are an IT Professional. It is the hallmark of Indian software engineers to fail to draw correct conclusions or to analyze the situation correctly.

This is quite an unfortunate remark from Harimau!

Mods, atleast in future, let us not allow posts that denigrate someone's profession!!

Arulalan

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 12 Nov 2009, 15:33

1. The H pylori invention is a useful example, not sure how many in this forum really understood the seriousness of it.

Pls read about it for all peptic ulcer problems to undo the myths that we have about cause of ulcer and some types of cancer in stomach. It is a very important innovation and awarded Nobel prize 3 years back. It has to be treated with antibiotics unlike the usual antiacid and acid creation suppressor. Thanks to Harimau for pointing that.

2. Analytical capability of IT crowd... what Harimau says is not completely untrue.
It depends on what his reference point is. And does he include the call center people.
And his generalisation is not correct though to assume everyone in IT as less analytical.

I am in h/w industry (VLSI design) which is also called IT in Bangalore to get
houses on rental quickly and may be some respect . And in our company, we
donot need many people like what IT "services" industry needs but definitely
few very good people at analytical skills as our design phase is related to
several orthogonal areas.

When I go to campus, the best campus (not IIT though as we donot get good dates
as the IITans give preference to banks on Wall street first) , we find it hard to
select 3-4 people on a best date (First or second day after campus opens for placement).
But the services companies (not keen to name), come the next day and
selects tons of people, some time close to 100. Again I am not saying all those 100
are less creative but a good percentage is poor in engineering fundamentals and
analtical.

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 12 Nov 2009, 15:41

perarulalan wrote:
harimau wrote: Let me make a guess regarding your profession: you are an IT Professional. It is the hallmark of Indian software engineers to fail to draw correct conclusions or to analyze the situation correctly.
This is quite an unfortunate remark from Harimau!

Mods, atleast in future, let us not allow posts that denigrate someone's profession!!

Arulalan

Oh, I'm sure he didn't mean anything personal... argumentum ad-hominem / ad-personem is a time-tested line of argument...in any case it is not clear as to what he has in mind as "Indian software engineer", software engineer of Indian citizenship, located in India, trained in India, or having revenue sources largely in India. My own answer would vary, as would the basis of his denigration: industry, profession, geography, nationality, race?

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 12 Nov 2009, 15:50

rajaglan wrote: The H pylori invention is a good example, not sure how many in this forum really understood it.
Pls read about it for all peptic ulcer problems to undo the myths that we have about cause of ulcer and some types of cancer in stomach. It is a very important innovation and awarded Nobel prize 3 years back. It has to be treated with antibiotics unlike the usual antiacid and acid creation suppressor.

Amen to that. When I relocated from the US, I initially overcompensated on the spicy food and stuff from Grand Sweets, leading to a small ulcer. The prescribed Pylori-kit set it right very effectively. Of course I have practised moderation in diet since.

perarulalan · Post by **perarulalan** » 12 Nov 2009, 16:00

karthikbala wrote:
perarulalan wrote:
harimau wrote: Let me make a guess regarding your profession: you are an IT Professional. It is the hallmark of Indian software engineers to fail to draw correct conclusions or to analyze the situation correctly.
This is quite an unfortunate remark from Harimau!

Mods, atleast in future, let us not allow posts that denigrate someone's profession!!

Arulalan
Oh, I'm sure he didn't mean anything personal... argumentum ad-hominem / ad-personem is a time-tested line of argument...in any case it is not clear as to what he has in mind as "Indian software engineer", software engineer of Indian citizenship, located in India, trained in India, or having revenue sources largely in India. My own answer would vary, as would the basis of his denigration: industry, profession, geography, nationality, race?

Karthikbala,

I am not a s/w professional.. I just felt that it was not required for him to bring up such an issue.

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 12 Nov 2009, 16:11

karthikbala wrote:
rajaglan wrote: The H pylori invention is a good example, not sure how many in this forum really understood it.
Pls read about it for all peptic ulcer problems to undo the myths that we have about cause of ulcer and some types of cancer in stomach. It is a very important innovation and awarded Nobel prize 3 years back. It has to be treated with antibiotics unlike the usual antiacid and acid creation suppressor.
Amen to that. When I relocated from the US, I initially overcompensated on the spicy food and stuff from Grand Sweets, leading to a small ulcer. The prescribed Pylori-kit set it right very effectively. Of course I have practised moderation in diet since.

Very likely , due to water, you must have got it.
In India and Pakistan, a good percentage of newborn kids get this within 6 months of their birth.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 12 Nov 2009, 17:14

DNFTT

karthikbala · Post by **karthikbala** » 12 Nov 2009, 17:19

rajaglan wrote: ...
2. Analytical capability of IT crowd... what Harimau says is not completely untrue.
It depends on what his reference point is. And does he include the call center people.
And his generalisation is not correct though to assume everyone in IT as less analytical.

I am in h/w industry (VLSI design) which is also called IT in Bangalore to get
houses on rental quickly and may be some respect . And in our company, we
donot need many people like what IT "services" industry needs but definitely
few very good people at analytical skills as our design phase is related to
several orthogonal areas.

When I go to campus, the best campus (not IIT though as we donot get good dates
as the IITans give preference to banks on Wall street first) , we find it hard to
select 3-4 people on a best date (First or second day after campus opens for placement).
But the services companies (not keen to name), come the next day and
selects tons of people, some time close to 100. Again I am not saying all those 100
are less creative but a good percentage is poor in engineering fundamentals and
analtical.

Although I went to grad-school in the US, my bachelors in Computer Science was done in a small town in Rajasthan, and we did not lack for any grounding in engineering, math, or analytics. Yes, I have had some negative experiences in recruitment in India over the last decade and have learnt to read between the lines when receiving a resume. I have never had anything to do with services companies, so won't comment on them. However, why single out IT/software, when the overall standard of higher education is dismal (at least according to the media and one's own anecdotal experiences).
I was once asked to set the question paper for a course in Medical Imaging for a *deemed university* (very prominent one at that) that was offering this course to PhD candidates. The reason being, they did not have any faculty for the course !!! 'nuff said...

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 12 Nov 2009, 17:58

Once thing can be said...whether harimau or rajaglan or Carnatic musicians, Indians in general are extremely petty and bereft of the ability to take a broad look at things. Thus we have no collective drive to solve real problems but extrordinary energy to split hairs for ever. This is cleverness gone wild...and completely wasteful. Everybody, from the non-analytical IT engineer to hotshot hardware designer rajaglan to hotshot knowall harimau will go into oblivion arguing about meaningless things and India will continue to be one of the dirtiest, dishonest countries in the world with 70% of the people desperately poor.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Nov 2009, 19:37

Uday

India will continue to be one of the dirtiest, dishonest countries in the world with 70% of the people desperately poor.

Is that a prediction or a curse

shAntam pApaM

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 12 Nov 2009, 19:41

You mean to say the likes of Bombay Jayashri, Sudha Raghunathan, Sowmya, Jayanthi Kumaresh, Neela Ramgopal, M S Sheela, Ranjani-Gayatri etc----none of whom also ahve day jobs and all of whom also have husbands who "put food on the table" and "provide a roof" are cheapening music standards? What gives you the right to write such nonsense?
Disgusting!

Harimau didn't say that! What he said is, it's MORE WRONG for someone (anyone, absolutely) with an ASSURED roof-on-top-of-head and food-on-table (for whatever reason, maybe because of a rich family) to resort to gimmicks THAN for others, who need to earn that roof and that food through music.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 12 Nov 2009, 20:00

vasanthakokilam wrote: I have to loudly wonder why you can not conduct a normal conversation, discussion or argument without any drama and that too on a topic that has been discussed to death so many times in the past.

Aw, come now, I'm sure you'd accept he adds a lot of colour to the forum...a little cussing ain't doin' nobody no harm, not even gentle rasika-folk

Vansh · Post by **Vansh** » 12 Nov 2009, 20:36

If an artist is able to sustain the crowd and get repeat audience, it reflects on the quality. There should be something in it that attracts crowd. People go there because they feel good listening and they want to! When there is a demand, what is wrong in giving such concerts.

Having said that, I would not go to an AS concert since it does not appeal to me. I think the underlying problem is in the labeling of the concert. I dont think the "anti-AS" group will have an issue if we label it semi-classical concert/ Abhangs concert/ devotional concert or whatever, and probably have a separate series/slots for that. Hardcore rasikas do not fancy when we label it carnatic music concert and provide diluted music. While on one side its heartening to see more people involved in CM, we should be careful and make efforts to retain its classicism. More importantly artists have a responsibility to effectively present the artform to the novice audiences lest they get half-baked knowledge which is dangerous.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 12 Nov 2009, 20:40

Imagine the effect of Kunakudi's violin on harimau. ha ha ha!

Vansh · Post by **Vansh** » 12 Nov 2009, 20:44

Have we ever attended a Hindustani concert which does not have the necessary ingredients? They also have ghazals et al, but are strictly streamlined.

bhavarasa · Post by **bhavarasa** » 12 Nov 2009, 20:55

I wonder what harimau thinks about MMI/TVS singing the "English Note" in their concerts. That was a big crowd pleaser in its time. Would that classify as invading the sanctity of Carnatic music?

Then what about when MSS sang "May the Lord Forgive Ourselves" at the UN?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 12 Nov 2009, 21:18

Sri Rajagopalachari's (Rajaji's) lyrics sung at the United Nations General assembly by Smt. MSS read 'May the Lord forgive our sins, here under this uniting roof' - Only we can forgive ourselves!

BUT please do not add 'FEEDING TROLLS' to the list of sins we need forgiveness/forgive ourselves for!!!!

bhavarasa · Post by **bhavarasa** » 12 Nov 2009, 21:22

rshankar wrote: BUT please do not add 'FEEDING TROLLS' to the list of sins we need forgiveness/forgive ourselves for!!!!

Point taken. I was just trying to figure out if harimau was consistent in his criticisms OR is this a case of, "Only Old is Gold and all else is .............."