Musings-2- Sound Blasters in Carnatic Music

S.NAGESWARAN · Post by **S.NAGESWARAN** » 07 Dec 2009, 02:46

Dear Rasikas,

Musings-02

I have been enjoying carnatic music for the past 5 decades from all the legendary artists of yester year.

Many of the concerts used to be one level up when the accompanying artists including the Mridangists play an understanding and absorbing accompaniment.

When you think about the Mridangam accompaniment, Sri Vellore Ramabadran stands apart for the Sunadam of the mridangam and his unobtrusive playing. He doesnÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t involve in too much of "Kanakku"

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Dec 2009, 00:21

Unless you see the mridangist with his hands on the mixer, it is the sound engineer who sets the levels, and not the musicians.

Do not blame the mridangist... it is not his fault.

Whilst one encounters, as in all fields of life, performers, perhaps, more than others, the occasional over-sized ego, what the artists ask for on stage is not only a desire to be heard (that is what they came for, and what they get paid for, and what will get them further employment), but the vital necessity to hear themselves and each other.

I have far more often felt that the vocalist drowns out the violin (and, yes, sometimes the mridangam too) than I have had cause to share your complaint.

We have been over this ground again and again in our numerous threads about what is wrong in the Carnatic Music concert halls, and I think it is very unfair, and really, often unwarranted, to throw general criticism at the mridangists.

I can never, ever, catch up with your knowledge of music, or your concert experience: but I feel you are wrong on this one! ---or, at least, not entirely right!

I would love to know more about the mic-less days, which we all know to have happened, but which, today, seem impossible. Whilst I know that concert halls exist in the world, with perfect acoustics, I can't imagine that the earlier days of carnatic music featured such luxury. For me, the mic-less concert would be the ideal, but I have to admit that, from recent chamber-concert experience, I doubt that my poor ears are up to it any longer.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 08 Dec 2009, 00:41

I tend feel the same as S.NAGESWARAN. Now a days I see two microphones being set up on both sides of the mridangam, just one inch away from the surface of the mridangam.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Dec 2009, 00:58

They still go through a mixer. It is still down to the engineer what comes out of the speakers.

Generally, in fact, the number of mics provided to the mridangist will be determined by how many are available. It is not as if the mridangist carries around a huge speaker/amp with him.

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 08 Dec 2009, 01:08

I'm relatively new here, and don't know if this has been mentioned before in the other threads; but miking a mridangam is challenging, especially in small rooms without a stage where the audience is fairly close to the instruments (eg. in a temple etc.). This is because the mridangam is fairly loud by itself compared to the vocals; and the people in the front may be getting the direct sound AND the speaker sound. The people in the back will only hear the speaker sound, and will taste a different mixture. It is even more complex if you want to record the concert from the mixer output - if you set the mix right for recording, the mridangam will be too loud in the hall and vice versa..

- Sreenadh

mokshamugalada · Post by **mokshamugalada** » 08 Dec 2009, 02:12

Personally being a mridangam student ( Sri. Nemani(early 1980s) and Sri. Benkili Somaraju (late 80's) ), I have the highest regard for the percussion instruments, but imho - many, not all - Mridangists usually feel the volume is low and keep asking to increase the level during the entire concert. This inspite of a mutually agreed "balance".

We have had a fair amount of experience with mixing mridangams for all kinds of artists in all kinds of "concert venues" for all kinds of "Main" artists and for some "home" recording productions for closed groups - some with only one mic for mono productions - they were all aptly balanced including special effects using flute etc. Also with friends and family members being in the broadcasting and performance biz, I do agree with most of opinions here.
But I don't subscribe to people walking out during "Tani". Once in a concert at a famous music college Nedunuri said - "it is not an interval. And no body move until mangalam is over".

The mixer/balance no doubt is in the hands of the "audio" person - but - depending on who the set of artists are, it is a very big challenge. Also like ShrutiLaya - Sreenadh said, the venue does matter.

Recently there was a situation where we had to take the output of the mridangam from the mridangaist's personal amp - This is a rarity but will catch up.

But finally, like the rabbi said - "You are correct too" ( from your perspective ).

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 08 Dec 2009, 05:27

Loudness could be interpreted more of a playing style (heavy beating) than audio levels. Differences in Mrudangam accompaniment, by itself, is an interesting topic for panel discussion, especially, if we can have both the legends and current stars in the same platform.

IMO, the challenges faced by today's accompanists are the emergence of newer compositions as against, the mrudangists of earlier generation, when they had to combat diverse singing styles.In fact that might have empowered them to appreciate the finer points of singing a kriti & created a need to 'understand' the kriti before playing for it. An example to illustrate this point is, in one of MDR's Rama Ninne Bhajana (Nattai), UKS just plays the Chapu for almost 2 minutes in the pallavi. It gives an effect of walking in to a temple where the morning bells are ringing!!

Today, mrudangists are challenged only from a technical standpoint, which in turn prepares them to be more 'technically sound'. Technical mastery and Aesthetics can mutually compliment each other and striking an optimal balance could not only benefit the singer, but the overall concert itself.

S.NAGESWARAN · Post by **S.NAGESWARAN** » 08 Dec 2009, 12:43

Dear Rasikas,

One point that I wish to convey is about the present trend of over volume is not written out of any malaise.

I am a great Rasika of all the mridangists. I was deeply pained when few Rasikas stood up and shouted for the reduction in the volume of the mridangam in two concerts during the December 2007 music season. The two mridangists were very senior mridangists and I am a fan of them and have enjoyed many of their playing to veterans of yesteryear legend musicians.

I want to request all mridangists to keep the above points in their mind and avoid any embarrassment to them in the middle of concerts.

A few points to be highlighted on this aspect are,

1. All said and done, Mridangam is a load instrument.

2. To put the blame on the mike in charge is not correct always. You would have observed that in the concerts, the mridangam artists themselves signal the mike in charge to increase the volume of amplification.
3. The organizers of the sabahas are not employing technically sound people for the mike system. [In the recently completed Carnatica music festival at NGS, the mike arrangement was excellent. This was mentioned in our thread also by the Rasikas about the excellent mike arrangement. Sri Ramanatha Iyer of Carnatica also mentioned that professional people were engaged for this festival for the mike arrangement].
4. The same mridangists who play loudly before the pre Thani used to play in a subdued and pleasant way when Thukkada and Bhajan songs were sung in the post Thani.
5. My humble suggestion to all the mridangists is to use restrained volume levels voluntarily to enhance the listening pleasure of the Rasikas.

S.NAGESWARAN.
08.12.2009.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Dec 2009, 14:11

The major point, which I have mentioned often in related threads, is that musicians on stage ask for the sound to be adjusted according to their perception --- and this perception is totally different to that of the audience.

A typical concert situation sees the musicians having no stage monitor, and with speakers facing the audience, maybe several rows out into the audience. That is like listening to yourselves via speakers in another room with the door shut. It is an impossible situation.

There is one thing for which the artists --- all the artists, and often especially vocalists --- can be squarely blamed, and that is for not understanding that they do not hear what the audience hears. In this respect, If you would replace the word "mridangists" with "artists", I would be in agreement. I also think that mics/amplifiers may have taken away some of the requirements for musicians to match their playing to the environment, and maybe that skill is missing in them now.

2. To put the blame on the mike in charge is not correct always. You would have observed that in the concerts, the mridangam artists themselves signal the mike in charge to increase the volume of amplification.

If you "tell" me to do something, who is responsible for the doing: you or me? But, of course, I admit that the sabha ethos is, yes-sir, no-sir, of-course-sir, anything-you-say-sir is responsible for the fact that the sound man feels that the artists are his boss. It is a cultural problem.

At a recent TVG concert at PSHS School, TVG was obviously having problems hearing himself, and kept asking for his volume to be increased. The sound man (who sat in front of the stage, using his mobile phone, for part of the concert!!!!) increased the auditorium levels despite there being stage monitors. This was wrong and foolish, and took away a lot of my enjoyment of what was, otherwise, a wonderful concert. How come TVG, who is not only a very senior artist, but also a cosmopolitan one, and having a great mind for the researching of all matters of music, is not aware of mic technique and amplification? How come also, that the organisers and sound men (and the artist) do not realise that a single, very directional, mic, is not good for an artist that spends a great deal of time communicating with his accompanists?

In that same concert, by the way, Tiruvarur Bhaktavatsalam played with great restraint, showing us in the thani only, the power with which he can play.

3. The organizers of the sabahas are not employing technically sound people for the mike system.

Nail hot on head! But it is a part of the bigger question of the culture.

To give a little balance to my rant (a regular one): I do believe that the situation is improving, with better equipment, and fewer concerts being delivered from the speakers at rock-concert levels. Maybe I'm just lucky in the relatively-few concerts I attend.

To give the PSHS School guy his due, too, he had no such problems, yesterday, with TVS, another powerful performer.

laks1972 · Post by **laks1972** » 08 Dec 2009, 17:50

This has been discussed in some other threads.

1) Some mrudangists today keep signalling at the sound engineers to increase their sound. One such example was cited in the case of Namasankeerthanam by Udayaloor where the culprit was his usual mrudangist. And it was pointed out that he went on the offensive when audience protested high volume for mrudangist. This is true with regular concerts also . It appears some mrudangists are never satisfied with the volume level.

2) Save a few such as Arunprakash and Ganapathiraman , the mrudangists of this generation think non-stop power playing means quality playing. So their non-stop playing with no gaps and punctuation marks , thanks to one senior mrudangist who brought in this culture, has made mrudangam accompaniment quite loud and predictable nowadays

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Dec 2009, 18:02

They perceive the sound as they hear it from the stage.

I think many, if not most, people find it as impossible to believe that this not what the audience hears, as do the artists!

We have absolute comprehension failure, on and off the stage, and inept sound engineers.

There is no hope.

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 09 Dec 2009, 09:41

As nick rightly pointed out , the absence of feedback given to the stage is one of the reasons for this loud banging from mrudangam artists . It kind of baffled me , when in one of the concerts of a very senior mrudanga vidhwAn last season , he refused any monitor to be given to the stage , but kept demanding high volume , thereby resulting in me listening to the entire concert with cotton in my ears .

In some cases , the disciples who accompany senior mrudangam vidwAns are the culprits here . They keep on demanding high volume to their teacher alone , leaving the sound system imbalanced . I still feel , the safe bet is to leave everything to the mike man , or take the feedback from the audience after the varnam regarding the sound level , just as ravikiran does in most of his concerts .

Arvind

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Dec 2009, 14:40

Ahh... the students. Now this is a "criticism" of mridangists that I share. Why they, alone, should have a regular entourage sitting around them completely baffles me. It is not felt to be necessary by the violinist, and when a vocalist is accompanied by a student, they are often part of the concert.

...in one of the concerts of a very senior mrudanga vidhwAn last season , he refused any monitor to be given to the stage

They should simply not be allowed to refuse. The amplification is not their business; playing is.

It is very much overdue that artists be put in their place (however senior) on this, but the culture I've referred to won't allow that to happen. You Americans have a wonderful word for this misplaced reverence: you call it "brown-nosing"

. Whilst the words look more polite than the equivalent English expression, the concept remains the same!

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 09 Dec 2009, 20:46

I would love to sit on stage with the artists in some hall to see what they hear!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 09 Dec 2009, 21:22

The artists themselves do not hear their sound when they sing or play!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Dec 2009, 23:08

In many halls, it is the worst seat in the house, like an acoustic black hole!

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 10 Dec 2009, 00:08

The sound is deliberately directed away from the stage to avoid feedback, by placing the speakers far away, and pointing the other way. Stage monitors can help, but they too can cause feedback if you turn them up too high. Wonder if our artists will accept wearing headphones so they can hear clearly. Will the audience!?

- Sreenadh

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 10 Dec 2009, 00:21

Some artists face a speaker to the microphones in the stage so their rendition gets an echo effect!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Dec 2009, 03:20

Hmmm... ShrutLaya gives part of the answer/problem.

Most of the mics used are quite directional. So long as monitor volumes are kept reasonable, there should be no feedback screech. This is how performers work all over the world, and many of our venues do give feedback (sometimes called foldback) monitors. It is not at all impossible, it just requires some knowledge and professionalism.

Of course, if anybody on stage moves a mic, especially the violinist, as that one is at the most "dangerous" angle, all can go wrong --- but, albeit I am not a sound engineer, I think feedback screech is more likely from overstrained auditorium speakers than from properly adjusted monitors.

There is no alternative; it is the "proper" way of doing things.

It can also be, as long as the organisers/engineers have any sense, the way to manage the performers --- If the mixing desk is sufficiently sophisticated, the adjustmnents they ask for are applied to the monitors, not the auditorium speakers. The artists don't realise that, though

I learnt a lot about this stuff from the postings of someone in America on the now-long-ago USENET, rec.music.indian.classical. He presented many Indian artists in America, and was very strict about the management of the program so that it should not be spoilt by complaints such as we read here. It can be done, with a mixture of charm, diplomacy and stubbornness !

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 14 Dec 2009, 11:02

Re: pst#10-Laksh72.
Ijust returned from an Udayalur namasangeerthanam--the Mridangist(Asthika Samajam Hall in Alwarpet--not known for its acoustics fo music concerts) was just plain Bomblaster!!!
It has reached the stage that audience reaction is immmaterial to these artistes.Most of the places the mike man is simply overwhelmed by the demands of these artristes.
The solution has to come from the audience collaborating with the Sabha Organisers and settling on certain basic rules,and enforcing the same no matter who the artist is!!
Needless to say my "wish" has as much chance of getting accepted as the Palestinians and the Israelis accept each other!!!

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 14 Dec 2009, 12:17

Is it not possible to completely equate feedback to what the audience hears? At least the relative sound levels of all instruments should be equal.

aspashtam · Post by **aspashtam** » 14 Dec 2009, 23:57

I wish to point out here that in most of the concerts the Mridangam artistes don't get the actual level of sound out put on the stage from the monitor kept for the artistes, as the sound engineers don't mix mridangam along with voice & violin.Voice always will be louder on the platform.Some times tuning the mridangam itself becomes very difficult for lack of proper audibility.The actual level of monitor on the stage & the level in the auditorium are different. Mridangam playing is physically more strenuous than any other instrument.There fore in a 3 hour concert one can not expect the mridangam vidwan to play hard through out. He might get exhausted in the middle of the concert.Sometimes this poor man would have asked for more volume but I think it should have been absolutely for the monitor level only.I know many main artistes who give instructions to the sound engineers to keep the level of mridangam very low also.

I agree that when people who don't know anything about mridangam playing start giving their opinions on these subjects it will end up in this kind of controversies.Please don't compare the artistes in the period of MDR, KVN,TMT,DKJ & so forth with the present day artistes,because the entire caliber of the main artistes in those days was different and to my knowledge "only a vidwan had the right to talk about another vidwan". The main artistes wanted the support from the great mridangam vidwans.Several occasions Ariyakudi did not agree to perform when the greatest of all time Palghat Mani Iyer or equally good vidwans were not available.He gave respect to the accompanists unlike the artistes of today.They maintained mutual respect.All artistes on the stage used to be equal in mastery irrespective of the instruments they played.When the caliber difference came to the concert platform all problems have started creeping in. Regarding the tempo again the main artistes put the blame on mridangams vidwans.Many vocalists who are weak in thalam have come up to the level of being called "maha vidwans".General listeners do not understand what actually happens in a concert.It has become the duty of mridangam vidwans to save the face of vocalists.Most of them don't put thalam correctly when thani is played. This is not a good trend to put the blame on the mridangam artistes for any thing and everything.If the choice of accompanists could be left to the organizers this problem can be solved to an extent.Now the main artistes select their accompanists to their convenience for some other reasons.Please stop advising a vidwn about technical aspects.If you are not a musician please do not take the trouble of doing such destructive criticisms.

In those days listeners were left with no choice other than putting up with these problems instead of blaming the poor mridangam artistes or any other artiste who sincerely perform to best of their ability.I have heard Semmangudi mama saying that during his time there used to be only one mike kept just in front of the vocalist and that too a little away from him.He added "now vocalists are putting the mike in their mouth".Then slowly one more mike came for the violinist,two for mridangam for both sides and separate one for each instrument.What more you need for total confusion? And the sound system is operated by some body who owns the system with out any knowledge of music.

I feel the standard of performance and the standard of listening also have gone down now because you can not see any vidwans among the audience.Vidwans on the platform can't cheat the vidwans sitting in front of them. Many sabhas give complementary passes to vidwans providing a seat at the back row keeping the front rows for donor pass holders who would not show up most of the time.In those days vidwans performed with respect & fear before an educated and enlightened audience which is totally absent today.

You can consider me as a vidwan or an ordinary listener.Choice is yours.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 15 Dec 2009, 00:31

"I just returned from an Udayalur namasangeerthanam--the Mridangist(Asthika Samajam Hall in Alwarpet--not known for its acoustics fo music concerts) was just plain Bomblaster!!!" - This is my experience too in other namasangeerthanams. I like to hear from Pakkavadyam vidwans what prompts them or do not prompt them to overwhelm the singer and even some times increase the beat without even singer being ready.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Dec 2009, 00:39

I cannot defend them against taking control of the tempo. I have certainly hear complaints, from those who wish to sing slowly, that they find, bar a few, that controlling the mridangist is a problem.

As to overwhelming the main artist; no, I do not believe that there are many who want to do that. They would hardly expect many more concert bookings if they did.

watch my keyboard*:- they do not hear what the audience hears.

*forum equivalent of "watch my lips"

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 15 Dec 2009, 01:09

nick H wrote: --- but, albeit I am not a sound engineer, I think feedback screech is more likely from overstrained auditorium speakers than from properly adjusted monitors.

Feedback comes because the sound goes microphone -> Amplifier -> Speaker -> microphone and round the same loop until the system saturates i.e can't make it any louder. It does not matter which speaker - auditorium or monitor - the mike hears! If it is heard loud enough on the stage, there is the potential for trouble. As you point out, the mikes are quite directional and reject sound coming from behind; but with echoes in the stage, changes in the mike position etc., it's a careful tradeoff ..

nick H wrote:
I learnt a lot about this stuff from the postings of someone in America on the now-long-ago USENET, rec.music.indian.classical. He presented many Indian artists in America, and was very strict about the management of the program so that it should not be spoilt by complaints such as we read here. It can be done, with a mixture of charm, diplomacy and stubbornness !

I'd like to learn more too .. if you can connect me to this gentleman, perhaps in a private email to [email protected]

- Sreenadh

PS My name is not Shruti Laya, that is our organization!

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 15 Dec 2009, 08:23

I used to solve the ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“screeching"

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Dec 2009, 16:20

Even rock musicians use monitors; they could not play without them. There is a huge amount of volume involved, and the monitors and adjusted not to give screech. There is no excuse; just sound men who don't know their jobs.

I'm sorry, but the stuff I read on USENET was years ago; I have no idea who it was now. Pity; there was one post that could be the bible for concert organisers!