L. Shankar / L. Subramaniam

Sramana · Post by **Sramana** » 05 May 2006, 04:31

It seems like whenever these two come up, 80% of people give similar replies: "technically amazing, but no bhava", the bottom line being something like "so what?" I'd like to hear some people's thoughts.

When I strive to characterize the music of the L. bros., I usually end up using words like "abstract" or "patterned" or even "brutalistic". (Brutalism is that "ugly" architectural style from the 50's and 60's emphasizing huge concrete masses, geometric abstraction, and a lack of decoration. A very imperfect parallel, I know, but I think it resonates with the mathematical abstractness of L music. I put "ugly" in quotes because I happen to like that style!) Their music appeals to me *heavily*, such that I generally consider them my two favorite musicians of all time. All CM people I talk to despise their music and say it violates raga grammar, lacks bhava, etc. (With one exception--and it's no accident that he's my concert collaborator.) At least they still give props for technical prowess.

I think there's more to the L bros. than technical prowess. Admittedly, their music often sinks into forgettable patterned plodding, but at its best--and there's a lot of it--it's simply visionary, astonishing, pushing the envelope of what humans can do with sound. While I love traditional CM, I feel the L bros. speak to me much more directly, in terms I can understand more immediately. Is it possible to feel this way but also fully understand/appreciate traditional treatments? How do the L bros. fit into the CM fabric, if at all? Are they simply outliers, or can even the most traditional rasikas learn something from them and transform CM?

Sramana · Post by **Sramana** » 05 May 2006, 07:15

Aha, the edit explains why this post briefly disappeared

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 May 2006, 08:06

I have not heard enough about the three brothers to have a strong preference one way or the other, but a long while back, in the bargain bin at an Indian grocery store, I was pleasantly surprised to find a CM cassette of these three brothers for $1.00. That was a diamond in the rough indeed. It had an elaborate Viriboni Bhairavi varnam, done very well. I used to listen and enjoy that quite often. I have a lot of respect for their vidwath.

At a different time, I went to a concert by L.Shankar with Zakir Hussain. It was an OK concert and I would put that in the technical wizardry section rather than an effective CM concert. The feel and the musical atmosphere the concert created was definitely different which was probably quite what they intended. Overall the audience, a good mix of indian and non-indians ( skewed towards the latter ), young and old, college students etc., seemed to have enjoyed the evening very much.

Vocalist · Post by **Vocalist** » 05 May 2006, 16:21

Assuming we are talking violin here...

I heard L.Subramaniam in concert a long time back. It was AMAZING!!
Concert consisted of 2 RTPs. That's it. Just 2 RTPs (& mangalam)! One before the intermission. One afterwards.

Obviously rAgamAlikA. Can't remember the central rAgA. Technically it was superb, and quite frankly, it was worth every cent. The tAnam & swarAs were amazing too. A westerner in the audience (just before the intermission) loudly complained that it was too intense. Everyone stared at him incredibly. It was at that point I realised ...

Each musician has their own 'something special' to offer to the crowd. Usually, it depends on the musicians choice and combo -the better it is, the more successful you are. In L.Sub's case, technicalities are enough to spell-bound the crowd.

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 10 May 2006, 13:39

I heard them a couple of times. Very mediocre when it comes to real, bhava laden music with depth. They simply do not have that special factor that violinists like LGJ and MSG (and the heavily underrated but arguably one of the best, Dwaram Mangathayaru) have when rendering a raga. If I recall correctly the main item was Kambhoji. The raga was just "bleah". Standard stuff.

Their technical prowess is great but technical prowess is no substitute for class. No amount of practice will turn an Allan Border into a Don Bradman. No amount of technical brilliance will make Nigel Kennedy a David Oistrakh.

Rendering a varnam in 20 kalams may be an amazing feat but so is being able to create sounds of an ambulance or a child crying on a violin, but no one (Apart from a few insane, fortunately distant relatives in my family) would consider Kunnakudi a great violinist.

Ganesh Kumaresh seem to have picked up where they left off it seems.

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 10 May 2006, 13:43

LSub and his ilk are great for expanding the reach of CM to people of different countries. They are our Ravi Shankars and Zakir Husseins and in that they do play a very important role.

Maybe we shall have a few Chinese MDR/GNB fans thanks to an early introduction by LSub.. who knows.

srini_pichumani · Post by **srini_pichumani** » 24 May 2006, 22:00

I have heard L.Shankar accompany several Carnatic vocalists (including MDR if I recall correctly) -- he was quite good. Similarly, I have heard L.Subramaniam accompany KVN, Alathur Srinivasa Iyer, etc on recordings and he was excellent.

In solo concert/recordings, I find L.Subramaniam to be boring -- we featured him in SPICMACAY concerts -- he was squeaky clean and all that, but otherwise didn't move me.

L.Shankar on the other hand can be very interesting -- never heard him solo in concert -- but got to hear his double-violin+vocal recordings a long while ago and felt that he was definitely was onto something. You have got to get out of the mainstream Carnatic groove though !

-Srini.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 May 2006, 22:04

Nice to see you here Srini
A warm welcome!

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 27 May 2006, 04:02

To me personally L Shankar's double violin solos held tremendous promise. Over the decades starting around 1980 he recorded RTP's in Hemavathi (no surprise there), Shankarabharanam, Abheri and Kiravani. I have all of them and I believe they represent a truly innovative leap from a Carnatic base to creating a certain kind of mind-bogglingly complex and yet beautiful "world music".

A few years ago, I heard him live and was very disappointed. The spark seemed to have gone and he looked like an empty shell.

Subramanian and Shankar are entirely different. Subramanian can be excruciatingly banal and boring but not Shankar.

More later

- Uday

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 May 2006, 06:21

It is indeed a joy to see you Uday here!
Trust everything is fine with you.....

Greetings and a warm welcome...

new_cmfan · Post by **new_cmfan** » 27 May 2006, 20:20

My 6 month old sleeps to Shankar's Abheri - i guess the repetition lulls him to sleep. So - to some, the repetition is boring... to others it is soothing and to a new parent like me - it is a blessing!

Sramana · Post by **Sramana** » 28 May 2006, 07:27

It's hard to imagine sleeping to LShank's Abheri. Repetition...hmm, I guess every unfamiliar music genre seems monotonous to those not used to it. "L music" is like all the rest in this regard.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 28 May 2006, 21:08

excerpts from a LS-LS-LV-PMI concert

http://rapidshare.de/files/21609136/06- ... m.MP3.html
http://rapidshare.de/files/21611435/04- ... i.MP3.html

new_cmfan · Post by **new_cmfan** » 12 Jun 2006, 03:45

Sramana - I am really sorry that you can't imagine someone sleeping to LShankar's Abheri. I guess I am very lucky - i get to witness it almost everyday!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Jun 2006, 14:10

I recall a tale on this hub (or perhaps a close relative) of an LS performance in Chennai that started late and lasted about half an hour.

I was present at a big-venue programme with him billed as the star performer in London: the concert organiser had to come before the ausdience and tell, that for the first time in his professional life, he had to say that an artist had simply not turned up. No word, no explanation, just not turned up.

Don't like "artists" treating audiences like this. They should not forget that without us they don't eat.

However.... I have seen him play a couple of times, been overawed by the technical tricks, and thoroughly enjoyed the programs. I have two or three CDs, and enjoy occasionally. Perhaps his Hamsadvani varnum in god-knows-how-many speeds is really going too far (might as well just do sudoku, if that interested in numbers

) but I can still enjoy it.

I think maybe western audiences spoil Indian musicians: eg I'm often amazed at the rapturous applause that some audiences give to tabla players for plain ordinary playing.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 12 Jun 2006, 17:24

The problem maybe is that western audiences dont know what is ordinary and what is not.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 12 Jun 2006, 18:25

Ravisankar , in one of his interviews , recalls a hilarious incident .
It seems he had been struggling to tune his Sitar at the start of the concert and the process took a bit too long,

And as he displayed a sigh of relief that he got it right at last , the audience gave him a thunderous applause (probably thinking that the first piece was over !);)

To my mind , L-Trios music is a bit like the acting skills of Shabana Azmi or a Rajkumar.It is the personality of the artist that strikes you first and behind that sheen, one has to look for the character they portray.
Compare it with the skills of a Smita Patil or an Aswath (in Kannada) it is the Character that strikes you first, the artist later...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Jun 2006, 23:10

That Ravi Shankar incident was at the Bangalesh relief concert with George Harrison. The released album contains that hilarious incident. RS told the audience that it is just the tuning so far. The audience took it in good humor as well.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Jun 2006, 01:18

Reminds me of the report I once heard (don't know whether it was true!) about a magic show by the renowned Indian Magician PC Sorcar.
The show was supposed to be 6 to 9 PM. Sorcar walked on the stage at 6PM and was doing some atage settings as the audience were getting restless and they started cat calls. Sorcar turned to them and asked them to look at their watches. All watches read precisely 9PM. And
"That is my show", Sorcar triumphantly concluded!

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 14 Jun 2006, 07:11

Everyone seems to be clubbing the "LS-trio". While there are obvious similarities, Shankar is in a class by himself. As I stated before, I think it is possible to form a more nuanced opinion.

If you're like me, enjoying in equal measure western harmonies and Carnatic melodies, and has attempted in some pidgin fashion to meld the two, at least in one's own head, Shankar is a defining moment.

- Uday

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 13 Jul 2006, 06:05

I have heard L.Shankar accompany several Carnatic vocalists (including MDR if I recall correctly) -- he was quite good. Similarly, I have heard L.Subramaniam accompany KVN, Alathur Srinivasa Iyer, etc on recordings and he was excellent.

There is commercial recordings of L.Subramaniam accompanying MDR and I think L Shankar has accompanied Semmangudi in another recording.

Srini - nice to have you in these forums. I remember your contributions over 10 years back in the RMIC news group!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 13 Jul 2006, 20:58

A 'nice' review of L Subramaniam's concert...
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2006/06/23/stor ... 160400.htm
Ravi

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 21 Jul 2006, 08:22

Devi Priya?!

Well, it could have been worse. He could have started to compete with Kunnakudi and named it after the present CM of TN!

I don't know if there is already a raga called "Karuna priya", "Nidhi Priya" or "Kalagnar Priya"

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 21 Jul 2006, 13:12

I agree with Uday - Some of Shankar's recordings with MDR and SSI are very good indeed. Does he play in India at all?

Vijay

thinker225 · Post by **thinker225** » 14 Apr 2007, 17:09

I've always observed that the critics of the L brothers have just one answer -> Sahitya.
Sahitya is essential in Carnatic music, but it is not the be all and end all of Carnatic music. Carnatic music is finally a form of music, more than just lyrics. People who concentrate more on the lyrical aspects of kritis, generally don't seem to have an appreciation for L brothers. I really want to know how many can enjoy an RTP without syllables, without lyrics for 2 hours. I can ! The L brothers according to me are more about music than song.

I'm not as much interested in a song as I'm in the music that forms it.
I'm not as much interested in a song as I'm in the rhythm that moulds it.

Wrt the above two aspects, L Shankar and L Subramaniam are in a league of their own. The rest don't even come close. I have seen purists frown on virtuosity ! Is it because these dudes play Sangathi's at speeds inconceivable by you or is it because of your own ignorance which you are so proud of? Why O Why Are you so myopic? Is it because your "music teacher" taught you that a certain Raga could never be played this way? Well, here are the L brothers to show you those rare combinations of Swara's which your bird brain might not have figured out. Remove that blinder and look into the beyond !

Just leave your predilections and prejudices about Non-Sahitya music behind in the closet. I end this message with, "whenever there has been progress, there have been hundreds, nay thousands, who've tried to nip it in the bud".

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Apr 2007, 18:33

Accepting your premise, we should remove all sAhityam from CM and fill the space with just notations as in western music. For example:

P: sa ri ga da pa.....
A: sa sa ni pa....
C: ni pa ni pa....

How about that ? All of T's MD's and SS's and those of all others would all be just swarams. Then nobody has to worry about sAhityam mispronunciation or even worry about bhakti (that oozes out of the lyrics). We can all think about the abstract God. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Apr 2007, 21:29

I will try this experiment: to live with just my breath--no, just with my body..oops! There are times when I am not conscious of my breath, and other times when I am not particularly aware of my body--as when I hear a beautiful rAgA or swaram, but no sAhityA? Then, how do I exist?--I mean, how does CM exist?
I need both...

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Apr 2007, 22:25

Amplifying on my previous post, how many tODi, kAmbhoji, bhairavi etc., can be there if there are no sAhityams?--one each? Even then can you tell Thyagaraja apart from Syama Sastri or MD or GKB or Sivan for that matter when you remove the sAhityam?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Apr 2007, 23:53

If thinker did a little more reading he'd realise that his entire post was based on false premise.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 15 Apr 2007, 01:51

very precise words, not to mention the thought that were put forth by you, nick H.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 Apr 2007, 04:49

I applaud you Nick. Coming from someone who has more difficulty understanding sAhityA, the point is made. The premise of all? Have an open mind...

Suree · Post by **Suree** » 15 Apr 2007, 07:06

Music is both with and without sahitya, left to oneself, Whether it is pure sound or with sahitya. With the spiritual perspective in mind and not just kutcheri rendering, there is sound beyond the words as much while rendering with sahitya. Sahitya is more out of bhakti bhava while the former is more from anubava. For any system of music to survive and be dynamic/vibrant, these two pillars are important. Apostels of tradition should not curtail creativity or viceversa

thinker225 · Post by **thinker225** » 20 Apr 2007, 01:19

@All,
You guys seem to have gotten me wrong. I'm not against Sahitya. All i'm saying is Sahitya isn't all. Just because your musical faculty isn't evolved as much, gives you no right to criticize the L brothers for want of Sahitya.

@ Nick,
I don't claim to do a lot of reading. But I think a lot. But I guess you aren't used to the latter. All I ask of you is to think, if that ain't too much.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm afraid this doesn't become one more of those myopic forums, where everybody goes on and on about "stalwarts".

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Apr 2007, 01:56

Thinker225, reading the thread and responses to your posting does not really give an impression that people in general disagree with you that much.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Apr 2007, 04:48

VK,
Nick is not the only one who has to catch up with thinking. I have to do it too, AND so too with my reading

Thinker,
In order to appreciate non-stalwarts--the younger generation (I like to listen to a lot of them), one does not have to ignore sAhityam if they happen to be instrumenatalists--or forget layA if one favors viruththams. A concert contains all these elements and they take turns in coming to focus at given points. The fun of it is that there are many performers out there, old and new, to listen to and savor. How old they are, what they offer by way of music is not the point. They are all valuable, if they have merit. As VK points out, the post, including your recent one indicates that we all do not think that differently. The only advantage the old timers have is that their merits have stood the test of time. The young ones have to prove it every time they perform (granted, there would be some 'off' days)--and it will take years before they can prove that their art is timeless.
Personally, though I savor the 'sound' in an instrumental concert, the words hug the notes unobtrusively and actually add to the pleasure of listening...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 20 Apr 2007, 23:32

Thinker.... you entered this thread with an assertion that most people don't like LS because of lack of Sahitya.

My comment was intended to point out to you that reading this thread you would not find that objection. Anyone who was to make it could make it against any instrumentalist.

On that basis, I found the rest of your post based on a false premise. And still do.

But it appears that you just want to argue the Sahitya point.

It's a great discussion point, and one that will probably live forever on this forum --- but little or nothing to do with LS or his brothers.

So... If I fancy a display of technical fireworks and wizardry I could be spell-bound by an LS concert. But if I want to be truly moved and uplifted I'd prefer to listen to TN Krishnan. I'm prepared to believe that they both know what the songs they play are about. If that is not the case, then my argument, that sahitya is irrelevant to this topic, falls apart --- and I will indeed have to think some more

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 21 Apr 2007, 02:15

nick H:
Well said! When our CM instrumentalists play a rAgam they do so according to the way they learnt and practiced just like the vocalists. When it comes to the P, AP, and C part then they pick a particular song. At that time they have to play with utmost fidelity to the text of the song. If they distort certain words (for lack of knowledge of the script) then they either falter or they might manage with glossing over (just like the vocalists sometimes do by mumbling the particular word). All the same their minds must be reciting the kriti word by word. In that respect sAhityam is important. Otherwise why would you as a reviewer write so and so played "tiruvaDi caraNam" in kAmbhOji on the flute? You might as well write so and so played kAmbjoJi on the flute. It is similar to the dancers reciting the song in their own minds or lip-synching as the singer does the song.

thinker225 · Post by **thinker225** » 21 Apr 2007, 12:53

Can somebody please tell me what is the Sahityam for an RTP composed by say Dr.L.Shankar or Dr.L.Subramaniam? Do all of their RTP's have Sahityam's?
Secondly, when I spoke about people who criticize the L brothers for lack of Sahityam, I didn't necessarily mean that they are from this forum or the ones participating in this thread. I'm speaking out of personal experience. I've had to argue many a times in musical gatherings who tend to downplay the L brothers for indulging in "fireworks". Yeah, maybe when they were part of the Violin Trio, one could actually see one-upmanship. But then they were probably teenagers. Over the years, they have really evolved and started concentrating on music. But even when they were teenagers, trust me the music was simply divine. The notes, the Sangathis, the rare-Swaram combinations (just listen to Kapi by Dr.L.Subramaniam in the Violin Trio album. They play this RTP in Shankarabharanam which turns out as a Raga Malika. L.Sub takes off in Kapi. Now what he plays is stunning...showing his mastery over both Oriental and Occidental forms of music). I just love the harmonies that L shankar plays when in Mohanam RTP for example. Adds a certain flavour to their music. Musically they are truly brilliant. I can feed on their music for aeons together without having to listen to vocals. I don't agree with Nick when he says the L brothers can't be uplifting as compared to TNK. That's just a matter of opinion and depends on what you are looking for in a musical rendition.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 21 Apr 2007, 23:19

I think we should leave this at this point since de gustibus non est disputandum

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 22 Apr 2007, 03:57

Mahakavi....he says.......there is not to be discussion regarding tastes....good on him !!!

thamizhisai_paithiyam · Post by **thamizhisai_paithiyam** » 22 Apr 2007, 08:03

Sramana wrote:It seems like whenever these two come up, 80% of people give similar replies: "technically amazing, but no bhava", the bottom line being something like "so what?" I'd like to hear some people's thoughts.

When I strive to characterize the music of the L. bros., I usually end up using words like "abstract" or "patterned" or even "brutalistic". (Brutalism is that "ugly" architectural style from the 50's and 60's emphasizing huge concrete masses, geometric abstraction, and a lack of decoration. A very imperfect parallel, I know, but I think it resonates with the mathematical abstractness of L music. I put "ugly" in quotes because I happen to like that style!) Their music appeals to me *heavily*, such that I generally consider them my two favorite musicians of all time. All CM people I talk to despise their music and say it violates raga grammar, lacks bhava, etc. (With one exception--and it's no accident that he's my concert collaborator.) At least they still give props for technical prowess.

I think there's more to the L bros. than technical prowess. Admittedly, their music often sinks into forgettable patterned plodding, but at its best--and there's a lot of it--it's simply visionary, astonishing, pushing the envelope of what humans can do with sound. While I love traditional CM, I feel the L bros. speak to me much more directly, in terms I can understand more immediately. Is it possible to feel this way but also fully understand/appreciate traditional treatments? How do the L bros. fit into the CM fabric, if at all? Are they simply outliers, or can even the most traditional rasikas learn something from them and transform CM?

i have heard only l.shankar and l.subramaniam. i am definitely a more mainstream listener and consider the two of them fringe musicians. of the two, i find shankar's music more appealing. i haven't heard either in a very long time, but remember liking shankar's shanakrabharanam RTP (pancha nadai pallavi) a lot. it was very grand in conception and beautifully executed. of his other recorded music, i liked the kapi RTP also and the abheri RTP less so. i really have a problem with l.sub. it seems to me that the only rasa he can evoke is that of melancholy. it doesn't matter whether he is playing a sprightly mohanam or something really heavy like a hemavati - it all evokes sadness.

-thamizhisai_p'yam

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Apr 2007, 08:55

We have not seen any reviews of their mainstream carnatic concerts here in this forum. I am curious if either one of them performed during the chennai season in the past few years?

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 22 Apr 2007, 09:00

Sam Swaminathan wrote:Mahakavi....he says.......there is not to be discussion regarding tastes....good on him !!!

Sam Swaminathan interprets the Latin saying to suit his taste. So be it. But the quote means, if he cares to know, "About tastes there is no disputing". I think the meaning is obvious to those who do not want to dispute it. Simply put it means, "to each his own". Clear, my dear Sam?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 22 Apr 2007, 09:11

VK
To the best of my knowledge , they have not played a mainstream carnatic concert in chennai in the period after 1981-the year I came to chennai.
Though I would love to be corrected.

thinker

That's just a matter of opinion and depends on what you are looking for in a musical rendition.

You are absolutely spot on, here.Almost as if the artist is whisphering to us :
Tell me what you like , and I will tell you what you are !!

Assessment of L Brothers work suffers primarily from a shortage of recorded material.What is heard in albums do not give an impression that they try to cater to mainstream tastes.Both in range of ragas , krithis chosen.
It is that horrendous path designed to pamper a Westerners taste - in the process of trying to take this music beyond our shores-
and we have our great Ravisankar to blame for that.

Take a comparative rendering of ravisankar-vilayath(or nikhil bannerji) for any given raga , and you will see my point.
Has anyone heard a great darbari or malkauns by ravisankar
or
a major todi or yadukula khamboji by the L bros

Sadly it boils down to that.
If indeed there is that capability to produce mainstream music , it has been extremely well hidden.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Apr 2007, 10:03

Cool,
No tastes clashing here. You have clearly spelt out the reasons why the brothers stay out of mainstream CM. I don't think it is has anything to do with their musical abilities. How they express themselves in music is the point...

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 22 Apr 2007, 10:17

arasi
you would have made such a fine diplomat.

My grouse is never with the issue of ability.It is only about the fact that they do not employ it the way I would love them to.
A feeling that overcomes me time and again in Ganesh - Kumaresh concerts.
Oh ! What all could be achieved with that talent !!!

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 22 Apr 2007, 10:49

Mahakavi....that is exactly what I intended to say....

Thank you ! Must do a refresher course on Latin soon !!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Apr 2007, 11:05

See what I mean, Cool? As if the matter of tastes goes away! What is going to be the next post, I wonder--and you call me a diplomat

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 22 Apr 2007, 14:25

I don't know what a gustibus is, but doubt that I'm brave enough to dispute it.

Midn you, I took on a Chennaibus in my little Indica, and won, the other day --- so perhaps I have more courage than I think!

I'd go and see LS play, if the tickets weren't too expensive. Nice to see fireworks sometimes! But these Americans tend to have expensive shows!

ISTR someone posting (may have been on a previous forum) that he played at ???MFA??? ---- turned up late, gave a half-hour performance and left. The poster then went through several days of trying to get his money back from the Sabha secretary. Unsuccessfully.

So I think he has played in Chennai in recent years. If you can call it that.

thamizhisai_paithiyam · Post by **thamizhisai_paithiyam** » 22 Apr 2007, 18:09

coolkarni wrote:VK
Assessment of L Brothers work suffers primarily from a shortage of recorded material.

i am not entirely sure if that's the case with l.sub. at the risk of repeating myself, my principal problem with l.sub is his funereal approach to all music.