Hai all, I would like to know how one should keep his music collections intact for many years without losing. On CD/DVD? blueray? on Hard disk? on Flash memory? or the good old tapes? Each has its own merits and demerits. But which is more reliable? Whether to keep one set for listening and one set as backup?
As on today we are fortunate that large collection of CM is available for download on the net. As we are downloading and listening, the recorded media gets corrupt and one day we may not be able to listen to some of the items most probably our favorite ones as we tend to listen to them more frequently.
I am worried because I may have to repeat the downloads in such a case and there is always the danger of a website getting closed all of a sudden (like sangeetham.com).
I request the members to suggest the best method to avoid such situations.
Thanks in advance,
Ramesh
How to store the music
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mohan
- Posts: 2808
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52
With computer file backups (of any kind of data be it music, photos, videos or documents) - storing in several formats and locations is probably best. Some of the alternatives are
- external hard disk drive (the price of these is coming down by the day)
- dvd (either bluray or standard)
- flash drive
- external online sites. for a selection see http://www.demogeek.com/2009/12/08/11-b ... -services/
What I use are two external hard disk drives. I use two for redundancy purposes.
A few years ago I used to store on backup tape - now the tape drives are virtually non-existant. Hence, whatever format your back up is in, it is important that you have a means of recovering the backup.
- external hard disk drive (the price of these is coming down by the day)
- dvd (either bluray or standard)
- flash drive
- external online sites. for a selection see http://www.demogeek.com/2009/12/08/11-b ... -services/
What I use are two external hard disk drives. I use two for redundancy purposes.
A few years ago I used to store on backup tape - now the tape drives are virtually non-existant. Hence, whatever format your back up is in, it is important that you have a means of recovering the backup.
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rajeshnat
- Posts: 10144
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
isramesh
Even though your question appears to be more directed to EMC-IBM-HP storage forums, here is my take atleast having known coolkarni for few years.
# I think we have come to a conclusion that CD-DVD's are too dangerous, as a slight scratch here and there and possibly CD media itself is usually guaranteed for few years.
# I think a great idea is to buy all these 250 GB or 500 GB external Western Digital 500 GB USB 2.0 Portable External Hard Drive or seagate Free agent devices, preferably buy in US or ask your friend/relative to give it to you when he travels to india
.These are priced at minimal 100 US dollars and are far more reliable.
* # What I do is have this semi reliable external hard disks that I get it from stores in ritchie street(famous for electronics shop in chennai) which are priced for less than 1000 bucks all upto 80GB, i have 2 or 3 of that .That i store as a first level backup.Then I take and roll this ritchie street backups to the seagate/Western Digital .This is second level and permenant backup. Redundancy of backups is the key. Our smart coolkarni keeps one set at his home in chennai and one somewhere in his rural harihar in karnataka.
# Once I tried in my accquitant office where I transferred few collections into his Dell storage tape, it worked but I am not empowered to restore as I dont have the tape loader.So as such TAPE even though they say it is more reliable than external hard disks, but access to them is far few and I guess most of us are like me unable to invest on tape loader. So as such only external hard disks is way to go.
Even though your question appears to be more directed to EMC-IBM-HP storage forums, here is my take atleast having known coolkarni for few years.
# I think we have come to a conclusion that CD-DVD's are too dangerous, as a slight scratch here and there and possibly CD media itself is usually guaranteed for few years.
# I think a great idea is to buy all these 250 GB or 500 GB external Western Digital 500 GB USB 2.0 Portable External Hard Drive or seagate Free agent devices, preferably buy in US or ask your friend/relative to give it to you when he travels to india
.These are priced at minimal 100 US dollars and are far more reliable.* # What I do is have this semi reliable external hard disks that I get it from stores in ritchie street(famous for electronics shop in chennai) which are priced for less than 1000 bucks all upto 80GB, i have 2 or 3 of that .That i store as a first level backup.Then I take and roll this ritchie street backups to the seagate/Western Digital .This is second level and permenant backup. Redundancy of backups is the key. Our smart coolkarni keeps one set at his home in chennai and one somewhere in his rural harihar in karnataka.
# Once I tried in my accquitant office where I transferred few collections into his Dell storage tape, it worked but I am not empowered to restore as I dont have the tape loader.So as such TAPE even though they say it is more reliable than external hard disks, but access to them is far few and I guess most of us are like me unable to invest on tape loader. So as such only external hard disks is way to go.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
CDs... DVDs... we just don't know. The obvious answer is that only time will tell. The early generation of CDs had a lot of problems. The current lot seem OK.
Is there any reason that a hard disk can be expected to outlive a CD/DVD? Technically, I don't know, but given the additional risks of motors and moving parts, on top of some very delicate magnetic information that must be accessed with unbelievable precision, I seriously doubt it. They are certainly a lot less fragile than a hard disk. Try knocking one of each off the table; I know which one would still be certain to play!
Tape... acoustic tape is of limited quality (but then, so are a lot of recordings!) and it does fade/bleed. Data tape goes with the word "professional" and that means expensive! The tapes I used in my last job looked, physically, just like digital video tapes, but they did not cost the same. Even for data (well, our music, when stored digitally, is data) it is recommended to remake tapes, that are intended to be kept for ever, every few years, to avoid magnetic fade.
Having two copies of everything is the first step. I have had one hard-disk failure in the past year, and only with a lot of luck I manage to get the unbacked-up data off it before it finally became a paperweight. The second lesson is that both copies should not be on the same machine. The third lesson is that they should not be plugged into the same socket.... it goes on and on. My system is an external harddisk, but yes, it shares the same power supply, so one good surge and I'm done for.
The next step is offsite backup, as mentioned by rajeshnat. In the commercial world this is elementary. Some may use fire-proof safes, but one still has to access the tape after the fire!
The media? HEDGE YOUR BETS. Do not rely solely on the mechanics and electrics of hard disks. We can't say, for twenty years, whether CD/DVD will still be readable then --- but I believe it is a better bet than anything magnetic/mechanical. I have a strong suspicion that, if you put a hard disk in a cupboard for ten years, it probably won't even run when you get it out!
Keep more than one copy on hard disk --- and keep one or more CD/DVD backups as well!
Sideline point: If you are archiving for the future... please use lossless or high bit-rate formats. Do not be tempted to squeeze the files as small as possible. We have moved on from 78RPM records, and we should keep the quality as high as possible.
Yet another aspect of all this is, if your grandchildren recover your CDs in fifty year's time, what will they play them on? What will they plug the hard disks into? What would you play your grandparent's 78s on? How would you read a 5.25-inch floppy disc? Technology moves too fast!
Is there any reason that a hard disk can be expected to outlive a CD/DVD? Technically, I don't know, but given the additional risks of motors and moving parts, on top of some very delicate magnetic information that must be accessed with unbelievable precision, I seriously doubt it. They are certainly a lot less fragile than a hard disk. Try knocking one of each off the table; I know which one would still be certain to play!
Tape... acoustic tape is of limited quality (but then, so are a lot of recordings!) and it does fade/bleed. Data tape goes with the word "professional" and that means expensive! The tapes I used in my last job looked, physically, just like digital video tapes, but they did not cost the same. Even for data (well, our music, when stored digitally, is data) it is recommended to remake tapes, that are intended to be kept for ever, every few years, to avoid magnetic fade.
Having two copies of everything is the first step. I have had one hard-disk failure in the past year, and only with a lot of luck I manage to get the unbacked-up data off it before it finally became a paperweight. The second lesson is that both copies should not be on the same machine. The third lesson is that they should not be plugged into the same socket.... it goes on and on. My system is an external harddisk, but yes, it shares the same power supply, so one good surge and I'm done for.
The next step is offsite backup, as mentioned by rajeshnat. In the commercial world this is elementary. Some may use fire-proof safes, but one still has to access the tape after the fire!
The media? HEDGE YOUR BETS. Do not rely solely on the mechanics and electrics of hard disks. We can't say, for twenty years, whether CD/DVD will still be readable then --- but I believe it is a better bet than anything magnetic/mechanical. I have a strong suspicion that, if you put a hard disk in a cupboard for ten years, it probably won't even run when you get it out!
Keep more than one copy on hard disk --- and keep one or more CD/DVD backups as well!
Sideline point: If you are archiving for the future... please use lossless or high bit-rate formats. Do not be tempted to squeeze the files as small as possible. We have moved on from 78RPM records, and we should keep the quality as high as possible.
Yet another aspect of all this is, if your grandchildren recover your CDs in fifty year's time, what will they play them on? What will they plug the hard disks into? What would you play your grandparent's 78s on? How would you read a 5.25-inch floppy disc? Technology moves too fast!
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rajaglan
- Posts: 709
- Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:34
1. I bought a external drive recently which is around Rs5000 for 500GB of harddisk drive.
This is USB powered and hence it is slow. This device neednot have any external power point.
So less power plugs. You can carry in your pocket.
2. There is also external hard disk drive which also has power pin apart from the
USB pin. This is fast as externally powered. This has more pins and one should get
probably 1TB for Rs5000. This cannot be carried in pocket.
3. the main point here is that we should not use this as a floopy drive kind of
redundancy. One can enable backup and sync with computer where we download songs
at a particular dir.
4. And your on board hard disk drive can get corrupted. So donot keep everything in
C drive where OS is there. You may have to recover (overwrite) this place. So make
partitions like E (audio) , F (video). Keep OS in C. And keep alternate OS or recovery
files in D.
5. And anytime your data is corrupted, you can easily retrieve. Take some help from
hardware guys, a not so established industry for this. But they can do the job for you.
6. And when you format the external drive, be compatible in formating ie NTFS system
and not FAT32. This can also cause problems.
This is USB powered and hence it is slow. This device neednot have any external power point.
So less power plugs. You can carry in your pocket.
2. There is also external hard disk drive which also has power pin apart from the
USB pin. This is fast as externally powered. This has more pins and one should get
probably 1TB for Rs5000. This cannot be carried in pocket.
3. the main point here is that we should not use this as a floopy drive kind of
redundancy. One can enable backup and sync with computer where we download songs
at a particular dir.
4. And your on board hard disk drive can get corrupted. So donot keep everything in
C drive where OS is there. You may have to recover (overwrite) this place. So make
partitions like E (audio) , F (video). Keep OS in C. And keep alternate OS or recovery
files in D.
5. And anytime your data is corrupted, you can easily retrieve. Take some help from
hardware guys, a not so established industry for this. But they can do the job for you.
6. And when you format the external drive, be compatible in formating ie NTFS system
and not FAT32. This can also cause problems.
Last edited by rajaglan on 28 Jan 2010, 18:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Most people here, other than those in the IT trade, will neither know nor care what file system they have on their disks! Even if they have installed their own system, they are most likely just to have accepted the default (err... I guess that is NTFS since quite a while).
Never rely on the thought that someone can rescue your corrupt or failed disk. This is absolutely not an "anytime" option; it is a last chance, when all else has failed. It's true, though, that a lot can be done.
Any hard disk or partition can become corrupt or physically fail. I do agree, though, to not use "C:" for data. An image of your "C-drive" is a useful thing, but should be kept on a physically different disk.
Here we come to the point where the conversation would only be accessible to techies --- but making a disk image is not difficult (DriveImage XML --- free) and even having a boot CD that allows you to access your machine (Bart PE, also free) when Windows won't is invaluable.
I use Alwaysync for keeping my external disk up to date. Free for personal use, but it will soon start to nag you if you have thousands of files. It's worth paying for, anyway!
.
Never rely on the thought that someone can rescue your corrupt or failed disk. This is absolutely not an "anytime" option; it is a last chance, when all else has failed. It's true, though, that a lot can be done.
Any hard disk or partition can become corrupt or physically fail. I do agree, though, to not use "C:" for data. An image of your "C-drive" is a useful thing, but should be kept on a physically different disk.
Here we come to the point where the conversation would only be accessible to techies --- but making a disk image is not difficult (DriveImage XML --- free) and even having a boot CD that allows you to access your machine (Bart PE, also free) when Windows won't is invaluable.
I use Alwaysync for keeping my external disk up to date. Free for personal use, but it will soon start to nag you if you have thousands of files. It's worth paying for, anyway!
.
Last edited by Guest on 28 Jan 2010, 18:52, edited 1 time in total.
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rajeshnat
- Posts: 10144
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
Allmohan wrote: - external online sites. for a selection see http://www.demogeek.com/2009/12/08/11-b ... -services/
As such buying external harddisks from cheap chinese stuff in gray markets to costly seagate/Western Digital and having redundant backups is the way to go and preferably keep it in more than one place like our coolkarni who has one backup in chennai and the other at his home town.
But as such is that a permenant solution for years say at 2040 can I look at these external hard disk and download it again to my then PC and then hear. We all just dont know that for sure.
I think Mohan's external online sites as mentioned above makes sense because as such some one else takes the responsibility(trusted experts) then you.
Mohan,
Just taking this external online site route is the best as long term , but the maddening problem is the network latency.How do we push from our homes our backup to that external site,I remember when we pushed all our rasikas.org concert of less than 1GB I and cool had to share this work for close to 2 full days each . When each of us have 100 GB backups it will take us each 200 full days to push if your service provider allows you.
To me as such ,I find physical access to these backup sites (not just network access) is a way to go, some think like how our politicians goto swiss banks and hand over those gold biscuits and currency notes.
Is there any service provider who gives us access so that we can physically go to their offshore backup with our seagate 200GB , spend 2 hours copy all the stuff and then use the usual account to only read the files later.That to me is a more permenant solution. I do know there are companies few in the US for sure who provide offline backups of physical devices where for a fee they copy all our stuff like 200GB in a day or so and then voila voila we can always access any time to read them. Has anybody tried any of those so called service providers (some thing little more consumer friendly than mohan described)?
Last edited by rajeshnat on 29 Jan 2010, 12:55, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
I agree that DVD and External Hard drives are not fully reliable solutions. Over the years, I have lost WD/seagate/Lacie harddrives. And those USB powered hard drives are notoriously bad.
One option to consider is: Flash drive (Solid state disks ) prices have been coming down over the years and in the next few years they should reach a point of affordability for a 100-200 Gig drive. Since they do not have any moving parts, risk of losing data is much reduced. Hang in there and safe guard them in whatever media you have now for another 3 to 5 years. Then move to solid state drives. Hopefully standards would not change so drastically to make them unreadable by digital devices in the next 20 years.
One option to consider is: Flash drive (Solid state disks ) prices have been coming down over the years and in the next few years they should reach a point of affordability for a 100-200 Gig drive. Since they do not have any moving parts, risk of losing data is much reduced. Hang in there and safe guard them in whatever media you have now for another 3 to 5 years. Then move to solid state drives. Hopefully standards would not change so drastically to make them unreadable by digital devices in the next 20 years.
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MaheshS
- Posts: 1186
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Nick - That is a short-sighted view
I personally have two 1TB internal HDD's to store all my music. I also have a couple of 250GB external HDD's. Then again I am no longer afraid that I will "loose" it as I used to be 10 years ago. Now I am sure I can download / acquire whatever I have from friends. Not exactly Cloud, but distributed data with local copies
I personally have two 1TB internal HDD's to store all my music. I also have a couple of 250GB external HDD's. Then again I am no longer afraid that I will "loose" it as I used to be 10 years ago. Now I am sure I can download / acquire whatever I have from friends. Not exactly Cloud, but distributed data with local copies
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
I like your analysis
I don't mind the idea of backing up over the internet to a third-party provider. I really, really wanted to do this back in the job, but, at that time, the prices (including the connectivity) were too high, so it was daily tapes sent to a warehouse. You could say that that was letting someone else take responsibility, but it was a commercial agreement.
If I used an online backup service now, non-commercial, I would regard it as one of the copies, not so much a backup.
I'm not sure that "cloud" really exists, or ever will really exist as something new! I am sure that the computer industry will go on recycling the same ideas and marketing them as new. A simple terminal device with all programs and data running on a central server will be on the way soon. Maybe they'll call it cloud. Or something.
I don't mind the idea of backing up over the internet to a third-party provider. I really, really wanted to do this back in the job, but, at that time, the prices (including the connectivity) were too high, so it was daily tapes sent to a warehouse. You could say that that was letting someone else take responsibility, but it was a commercial agreement.
If I used an online backup service now, non-commercial, I would regard it as one of the copies, not so much a backup.
I'm not sure that "cloud" really exists, or ever will really exist as something new! I am sure that the computer industry will go on recycling the same ideas and marketing them as new. A simple terminal device with all programs and data running on a central server will be on the way soon. Maybe they'll call it cloud. Or something.
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
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vasya10
- Posts: 101
- Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 22:32
Follow all of the below solutions:
- Backup in HDD
- Take a backup of the backup in a portable USB, but do not move it around. (I have a USB Ext HDD which is almost permanantly fixed)
- Take another backup and gift it to a close friend who does not like music (will neither listen or throw away)
- Wait for a rishi to 'discover' Drive Rakshana Stotram.
- Backup in HDD
- Take a backup of the backup in a portable USB, but do not move it around. (I have a USB Ext HDD which is almost permanantly fixed)
- Take another backup and gift it to a close friend who does not like music (will neither listen or throw away)
- Wait for a rishi to 'discover' Drive Rakshana Stotram.
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ksrimech
- Posts: 1050
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 04:25
vasya10, why only a stOtram, here is a mantram. Drive rakSaNa mantram:vasya10 wrote: Wait for a rishi to 'discover' Drive Rakshana Stotram.
vAggEyakArasyadEvAya gAyakarasikapriyA nikSEpayantrarakSakAya SrIharddrivedEvatAya namaha!
Meaning: O Lord! One who is the Lord to the vAggEyakkArAs, one who is adored (directly or indirectly) by the singers and the rasikas, one who protects the harddrive device, the devata of the hard drive which contains renderings of rAgAs with all opulences (like SrI, SrIranjani, mALavaSrI, etc.), nothing in the hard drive is mine!
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ragam-talam
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
While discussing the various techie options, let's not forget that all-important 'social' approach.
I am referring to sharing your collection with others. Yes, some years ago when I found I had lost a few of my tapes from my collection, I found it such a relief to know I had shared them with a friend, who promptly made copies for me!
And given that music listening is a shared experience, how better to combine this joy with the knowledge that your replicated backup collection is sitting somewhere (hopefully safely!).
Now, if any of you want to take me up on this, I am more than willing to help you out...and play your 'backup' role.
I am referring to sharing your collection with others. Yes, some years ago when I found I had lost a few of my tapes from my collection, I found it such a relief to know I had shared them with a friend, who promptly made copies for me!
And given that music listening is a shared experience, how better to combine this joy with the knowledge that your replicated backup collection is sitting somewhere (hopefully safely!).
Now, if any of you want to take me up on this, I am more than willing to help you out...and play your 'backup' role.