Customs- Clarifications sought...

[srinidhi]

Help from fourumites sought.....

My cousin's son has finally suceeded in being accepted as a student of one of today's leading musicians (This musician has been my nephew's icon and idol for so many years now....)
My nephew had sent an audio clipping of his singing which the guru seemed to have liked and has aked him to come on a certain date in april. Now, this lad, having spent greater part of his life in the US, wants clarifications on the customs to followed when meeting the teacher for the first time.

(So far, most of his training had taken place under his grandfather in rather informal atmosphere...) The customs part is freaking him out more than the thought of actually singing in front of the guru.

The points he would like to know are : (Please keep in mind the the guru in question is very very young....not even 40 yet....)

1) In the good old days we would take a plate filled with
a) Vettalai b)Paaku c)fruits d) flowers.
Is it what is done even today or would something like a gift wrapped dry-fruits box or Cadbury's Celebrations be more appropriate (considering that the teacher is not that old....)

2) What would be the correct form to address the teacher ? Sir???

3)SHould a namaskaram be performed before starting the class or at the end of it???

I know these questions may sound silly... but my nephew does not want to do anything wrong and this is his first exposure to a formal class environment.

I know that there are professional teachers as well as students on this forum....so please help with your suggestions.

TIA.

[mohan]

I think you can stick to the traditional way. Take the plate of fruits, vetala pakku and dakshina. You can complement it with anything else you think is appropriate. Present it to the guru when he is ready to hear you sing and the namaskaram should be done immediately after handing over the plate. You can address the guru as 'Sir' and if he doesn't like it he will tell you what else to be used.
If this is the first meeting, keep the small talk to a minimum and concentrate on the music aspects.

[srinidhi]

Thank you mohan ji

[VK RAMAN]

I think you can stick to the traditional way. Take the plate of fruits, vetala pakku and dakshina. You can complement it with anything else you think is appropriate. Present it to the guru when he is ready to hear you sing and the namaskaram should be done immediately after handing over the plate. You can address the guru as 'Sir' and if he doesn't like it he will tell you what else to be used.
If this is the first meeting, keep the small talk to a minimum and concentrate on the music aspects.

Depending on the age of your son, it will be appropriate to say "abhivaadaye" while doing the namaskarams, IMHO

[srinidhi]

Abhivaadaye??? V K Raman Sir, Now you are scaring the daylights out of my nephew. (As I said, having been brought up inthe US, he is not very aware of the correct customs to be followed. For the fear of being chided, he would run away at the very sight of vibhuti/namam sporting, veshti clad- middle aged mamas. )

For some reason ,we were thinking that the younger generation of musicians -who come across as being "cool" - might not be so particular about the customs. But as I realise from your post and from Mohan ji's post- these customs must be followed regardless of whether the guru is old or young.

BTW is abhivaadaye compulsory or namaskaram alone sufficient?

And what is the significnace of these customs in today's context? Can someone explain?

[Nick H]

I guess he'd better memorise the guru mantra

Whilst things may be different between teacher and student here, after learning all my "good Hindu manners" as a music student in London, I find that "Hi" is far more in vogue here than "Namascaram"!

As to the significance, well, I guess I'm the last person who should comment, but I will!

I took my morsing, one day, to play in a concert in a hall in London. One of the London mridangam players was there, and was making a fuss about there being no mat, carpet, or even a sheet to sit on. I asked him, could we not just sit on the floor, and he replied that, as people, yes, of course we could: it was not for us that he wanted the cover, but because it was respectful to the music.

Thus, something that is, in itself, very unimportant, becomes important, because it marks the music, and its tradition, as being something special, and something greater than the mere people involved.

Wishing your son a happy association with his new guruji. Do bear in mind that the teacher will be used to students of varying age, varying shyness, and perhaps, too, varying nationality. It is part of his job to make it known what is expected and required in class.

[srinidhi]

Whilst things may be different between teacher and student here, after learning all my "good Hindu manners" as a music student in London, I find that "Hi" is far more in vogue here than "Namascaram"!

Thanks Nick ji. That will be a great relief to my nephew.

Thus, something that is, in itself, very unimportant, becomes important, because it marks the music, and its tradition, as being something special, and something greater than the mere people involved.

Beautifully put Sir.

Wishing your son a happy association with his new guruji. Do bear in mind that the teacher will be used to students of varying age, varying shyness, and perhaps, too, varying nationality. It is part of his job to make it known what is expected and required in class.

Thanks, Once again.

I guess once the formalities are over, music will take precedence over protocol.

[mohan]

BTW is abhivaadaye compulsory or namaskaram alone sufficient?

I'd say namaskaram is more than sufficient. Abhivadaye is a way of introduction that announces one's father, grandfather and lineage in general.

In today's context, these customs just show that student is respectful to the teacher and the music. Namaskaram in general is just a symbolic way of showing humility, respect surrendering one's ego to the teacher or elder.

Good luck with the classes and let us know how the first meeting goes.

[arasi]

'Ta' Nick for the episode about the importance of being earnestly respectful to the floor covering Puts things in perspective.
Mohan hits the right chord about all this.
Good luck to the student in his learning. Yes, would be nice to know how it all goes.

[munirao2001]

Srinidhi
It is indeed pleasure to know that a young person is keen on learning and acquiring knowledge of Karnatic Music. My Best Wishes and Blessings for his success. Hoping his success will spur his peers and friends also take similar steps.

Gurus desire a serious and committed student. Guru gets the pleasure of Sishya establishing Guru's stamp of class. If this is not going to happen, Guru will at least count on material benefits, sishya can bestow upon him.
Sishya must acquire maximum information/knowledge about Guru and values in his music for the first crtical meetings and interaction. Sishya must seize every opportunity to convey to the Guru his knowldege and his appreciation to the Guru, in subtle ways. The body language also should be right in conveying the respect , keenness and commitment to the Guru. Rituals are secondary and of minor importance. Sishya must give complete introduction of himself, if not already done before the first meeting.

[srinidhi]

[

Good luck to the student in his learning. Yes, would be nice to know how it all goes.

Good luck with the classes and let us know how the first meeting goes.

Arasi ji. many thanks for your wishes. Yes I will write about the first meeting. (if my nephew tells me everything). The D-Day is still a couple of weeks away.

MuniRaoji,
Many thanks for your blessings and guidance

[gobilalitha]

If it is convenient to him, let him visit Shringeri, pray to Goddess Saraswathi seeking Her blessings before starting his lessons .wishing him the best of luck . gobilalitha

[gobilalitha]

There is also a temple for Goddess Saraswathi at a place called KOOTHANUR in Tamilnadu
(i think it is nearKumbakonam) I have heard many devotees go there to seek GODDESS'S blessings before writing important examinations or joining musicclasses . gobilalitha

[rajeshnat]

Koothanur is few kms from peralam closer to mayavaram enroute to tiruvArur , little farther from kumbakonam , Incidentally in that temple lots of devotees buy pencil along with the usual flowers and tulasi etc.

[venkat1926]

Depending on the age of your son, it will be appropriate to say "abhivaadaye" while doing the namaskarams, IMHO

what if the student is not a HIndu Brahmin and for that matter if he/she is a non believer.

I apologize for perhaps a blasphemous(??) doubt

[gobilalitha]

Sir, no necessity to apologise. you have given your views . that's all. Since the name of the originator of this thread is Srinidhi ( a Hindu name,) i suggested visiting temples of Goddess Saraswathy, It is left to the learner's convenience or belief . gobilalitha

[Nick H]

What if the student is not a HIndu Brahmin and for that matter if he/she is a non believer.

I apologize for perhaps a blasphemous(??) doubt

On the contrary, whilst it may not fit this thread, it is a very good question indeed!

It is one that I had no idea how to handle when I was sent by my guruji to teach some beginners mridangam classes, and found myself facing an entirely mixed group of people. On asking my teacher what to do ---should I expect namascaram at the start of each class?--- he said that it is part of the tradition of the music, and that is what I should explain to my people.

[vasanthakokilam]

Yup. Similar in principle to the tradition in Yoga classes and in Karate classes ( 'bowing') no matter what the nationality or the cultural backgrounds of the teacher and the student are.

[Nick H]

That makes sense.

Wish it had occurred to me at the time!

[venkat1926]

I am not talking about normal simple practices of courtesy to the teacher like bowing (you can call it namaskaram) or saying "vanakkam" etc. I am referring to "Abhivadaye"

[vasanthakokilam]

venkat, in that case Abhivadaye would not be appropriate, obviously.

[munirao2001]

On Abhivadaye
The lineage(with reference to a Rushi), Gothram and one's own name are the main parts of Abhivadaye and was mainly a Brahminical custom and ritual. In the present day context, introduction consisting of parents, some famous near relative(s), one's own name, age, stage of one's study(school/college or music learning with other gurus, if any) are in practice and it serves the purpose. Present day Gurus do not reject the student for lack of information on the lineage and kula-gothram.

[VK RAMAN]

I like the concept of Abbhivadaye substituted with introduction of one's own name, age, stage of one's study(school/college or music learning with other gurus, if any). What does famous near relatives name do?

[Nick H]

What does famous near relatives name do?

Give Sabha secretaries an excuse to elongate their introduction/thanks speeches!

[semmu86]

Give Sabha secretaries an excuse to elongate their introduction/thanks speeches!

Nick , great one . On the other side , it does have the possibility of the guru knowing that famous relative either personally or musically thus making the kid endear to his/her's guru a little bit .

Having the relative from the guru's native place could also help ( although this is also declining these days ) .

And although even if this does not happen today , if that relative is a big shot , the kid may get some extra attention from the guru |(

[arasi]

Sad, Semmu I would say a guru would know about the big shot even before the first day of lesson!
Anyway, in Nick's case, as a guru, he needs to go through certain rites which would sort of make him acceptable as a proper indian guru (wears off in 24 hours, be warned).
And paying respect to the floor covering is an entirely different thing. You can skip all this in that case.
Anyway, I hope you folks realize that it is the first of April

[Nick H]

So it is!

Although way past mid-day now, so we should be safe...

[narayan]

Srinidhi, if the date in April is over, I'm sure it went well for the youngster. I firmly believe that in these matters, if the heart is in the right place, all things will sort themselves out. The guru will see what needs to be seen and teach as required, the student will learn what needs to be learnt.