The pernicious effect of moneybags on Carnatic music

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 04 May 2010, 09:08

The love of money is the root of all evil. But one cannot live without money. There is no doubt about it: money makes the world go around.
Historically, money has been in the hands of a few people. Others have to make an effort to see how they can separate a little bit of it from its owners.
This situation applies all the more to people in the profession of making music. You find that folks like Sri Thyagaraja lived on handouts (unjavritthi) from other people. Sri Purandaradasa gave away his wealth and became a wandering minstrel, dependent on the charity of strangers, which in earlier times was plentiful.
Ordinary musicians – those who sing, play an instrument, compose, etc. – had to depend on the generosity of a king, a zamindar or other rich person who was cultured and had an interest in music. You find that the maharajas of Travancore and Mysore as well as of the minor kingdoms of Ettayapuram and Ramanathapuram among others supported a large number of musicians.

Today, the situation has been turned upside down. The people who have money are businessmen who spend their time trying to make even more money. They don’t have the time nor the inclination to pursue the arts. However, some of them are willing to spend their money in supporting musicians and other artists. They view it as advertising and write it off as a business expense. However, advertising to be cost-effective must draw a large audience.
This means that those who want sponsorship must somehow or other attract large crowds. In today’s world, artists in general do not seek the patronage of rich persons directly. There is the intermediary of sabhas that seek sponsorship, provide a venue, advertise the event and conduct the concert. The sabha secretary is then forced to select “popular” artists so that he can show that the sponsor is getting value for his money.

This puts artists in the position of trying to attract crowds. The fact remains that classical music with its intricate grammar is of interest to only a select few. Hence musicians have to figure out how to “reach out to the masses” so that their livelihoods may be assured.

Is there a difference between “reaching out to the masses” and “pandering to an illiterate public”? There probably is but nobody seems to know what it is. The late Madurai Mani Iyer reached out to a large audience but nobody can accuse him of pandering. But today’s musicians seem to pander to the whims and fancies of a fickle public.
I have always wondered how far this will go before the public says, “Whoa! This has gone too far!” But that would mean that the public can actually discern that the reigning emperors and empresses of music have no clothes!
In order to introduce “variety” in the music program, the tail end of a concert includes somewhat lighter pieces in light-weight ragas. This has now expanded beyond the original intent and we now have not just the Kapis and Kanadas but the Karnaranjanis and Janasammodhinis. Instead of the usual Tiruppavai, Thevaram, Thiruppugazh, javalis and padams, we now have abhangs. I was quite shocked when the Purveyor of Abhangs in a concert sang some Bengali song starting with “Uchi, Uchi Kali Ma”. Supposedly, this is a gentle entreaty to Goddess Kali to wake up in the morning. So, a Thiruppavai, Thiruvempavai or Thiruppalli Ezhucchi is no longer sufficient for the Mylapore crowd; they require a Bengali song of mediocre quality! Of course, this is the same crowd that goes wild over “Ganapathi Bappa Moria” so nothing better can be expected from them.

I just have the feeling I should not let my imagination run wild because some of the things I imagine actually come true. Call it intuition if you will. I was idly wondering what would be the reaction if the abovementioned Purveyor of Abhangs announced that she was captivated by a wonderful new song she had heard in the United States on a recent trip and, considering its appropriateness to the month of December, she would now present it to the audience and then launched into “Jingle Bells”. Well, in a recent concert, the Purveyor of Abhangs actually sang an Italian song. “The Hindu” in its review considered the whole exercise wonderful and hoped that the concert would be presented in other Indian cities too!

Let us not leave out sabhas and organizers and their contributions in this matter. A few months back, in a week-long series of concerts on the veena organized with the noble intention of propagating the instrument, the organizers invited all sorts of people who have reasonable proficiency on the veena. After exhausting those artists who exclusively play the veena as a profession, the organizers had to draw on other artists famous as vocalists but who also could play the veena. It was clear to those who attended that some of these persons, while reasonably good at plucking the strings, required much more practice if they were to appear on stage with the veena. But that did not deter another organization from featuring a veena duo selected from vocalists in November 2009.

India is a country that believes imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. But Indians don’t seem to realize that excess of imitation results in unconscious parody. Thus, while most countries have a Founding Father, India has not only a Father of the Nation but also a Daughter-in-law of the Nation as well as an Evil Mother-in-law of the Nation. But then Indians live in a reality distortion field – this is somewhat like how gravity is distorted near a Black Hole in space; scientists may want to investigate if there are special particles that may be called “realitons” akin to photons and gravitons that are strongly deflected under certain conditions – and so they are unaware of the parody. They live in a world of self-deception.

“If two is good, five must be better” seems to have been the motive behind the Panchaveena program at the Cleveland Thyagaraja Aradhana this year. Somebody ought to tell the Cleveland folks that five is for pikers. The world record for the maximum number of veenas at a single event is held by Sri Sri Ravi Shankar of The Art of Living who organized some 500 (or maybe it was 2,500) vainikas in a concert in Bangalore some five years back. Try topping that! Heck, just within the last month some veena teacher in Chennai put on stage 25 veena students! And some months back there were 75 keyboards on stage at the Narada Gana Sabha which caused a dimming of the lights all over Tamil Nadu and the burning out of a couple of transformers, proving that the electricity grid has better musical sensibility than the rasikas of Chennai! And now we have this announcement: “108 Mrudanga Yagna… On the Divine occasion of the 68th Birthday Celebrations of Parama Pujya Sri Ganapathy Sachchidananda Swamiji, Mridanga Vidwan Sri.Thiruvarur Bakthavathsalam presents LAYA MADHURA MRIDANGA YAGNA by 108 Mridangam Artists on 27th May, 2010 from 7p.m. to 8.30 pm at Avadhoota Datta Petham, Ooty Road, Mysore- 570 025.” Yes, five is indeed for pikers!

That takes me to the GNB Fantasy Concert. This was billed as ”raagas/krithis he did not handle, but presented in his inimitable style”. The lead performer was Ravikiran and I thought he might sing these ragas and krithis. So I popped into the concert to find that instead he was playing the chitraveena. It might as well have been labeled ”raagas/krithis he did not handle, on an instrument that he did not play, by an artist who was not even born when GNB was alive”; that would have been more accurate. It was quite hard to see how a stringed instrument producing discontinuous sounds could reproduce the long continuous nagaswara phrases (pidis) that GNB employed in his alapanas. One has to label this as an exercise in trying to do novel things to satisfy an audience that couldn’t care less about classical music. I would have no problem if this was simply billed as a concert by Ravikiran, but by naming it the GNB Fantasy Concert, it became a theatrical event. Theater, it is said, involves the willing suspension of disbelief by the audience which unfortunately I couldn’t do as Disbelief is my middle name.

This leads me to speculate on what could be done to top this kind of spectacle. But that requires a digression for which I crave the reader’s indulgence.
Now, readers are familiar with my diatribes against the changes to the kutcheri format in the name of innovation by T. M. Krishna, in particular, the singing of sabdams, varnams and padams as main items, for which I have been accused of being a hidebound reactionary who cannot keep pace with modern thinking.
I decided to spend a bit of time introspecting about this charge and I have come to the conclusion that there is a deeper reason behind Krishna doing what he does. You see, there exists a program where varnams and padams are the highlight of the program. It is not the traditional kutcheri but a margam in Bharatha Natyam. You start off with pushpanjali, and progress through alarippu, jatiswaram, sabdam, maybe a small krithi, then the varnam as the main piece, a padam, a javali, a thillana and then the mangalam. Krishna’s main guru is Sri Bhagavathula Seetharama Sarma, who as a teacher at Kalakshetra had definitely had to sing for dance performances.

I am sure Krishna has watched his teacher sing for Bharatha Natyam and it is his innate desire to imitate his guru (again, to flatter his guru) that has led him to sing varnams in the middle of the concert. If only we give him the opportunity to sing for a dance program, he may yet revert back to the traditional kutcheri format, after having satisfied his longing.

Next year happens to be Vazhuvoor Ramiah Pillai’s birth centenary. So we can expect the Powers That Be of Cleveland Aradhana to consider a Fantasy Dance Performance, where T M Krishna is the singer. Now, T M Krishna would be the ideal choice because 2011 happens to be also Madurai Mani Iyer’s centenary and, in the convoluted logic of the Cleveland Aradhana folks, Krishna would of course be the right choice to represent Madurai Mani Iter’s bani or style of singing, as he claims to be carrying forward the Semmangudi brand and was born after Madurai Mani Iyer passed away. Since Madurai Mani Iyer (MMI) almost never sang a varnam in his concerts, the tribute to him would be complete by having Krishna sing a varnam! In place of the traditional flute used in the dance orchestra, we can have Kadri Gopalnath on the Saxophone. This has the merit of bringing together Krishna with the Saxophone, an instrument that he has recently condemned as being unsuitable for Carnatic music and which was nowhere to be seen in Carnatic music performances till after MMI’s death. Instead of the veena, we can have U. Srinivas on the mandolin, which Krishna approves. AS 2011 happens to be also Palghat Mani Iyer’s centenary, we can have percussion represented by one of his non-disciples on an instrument that he probably had not seen nor approved of during his life: thus the choice of Sivamani on the drums. This would have the additional merit of producing voluminous sound to match the noise generated by the rest of the orchestra. And as a gratuitous addition, we can have Anil Srinivasan on the keyboard but I am sure the Music Department of Cleveland State University can provide a honest-to-goodness piano for his use. And to satisfy rasikas who post regularly here on the need for innovation, we can have a couple of kids on the iPhone with Bebot software and on the iPad with JamPad software.

Being a fantasy performance, we of course will have to choose a style of dance which Sri Ramiah Pillai did not teach. What better than Kathakali? And who would dance in this program? Of course our multi-talented Ravikiran! Kathakali has the additional feature that all roles are only performed by males and so there is no conflict here in choosing Ravikiran as the performer.

Dear Reader, you may object at this point and point out that Ravikiran has not formally learnt Kathakali. How does that matter? Have you seen a Kathakali performance? The mask-like make-up prevents the dancer from showing any facial expression and the hooped skirt he wears prevents him from taking anything other than mincing steps. As to hand gestures, it seems limited to fluttering one’s hands. Ravikiran can periodically look at Krishna’s left hand as he sings to see exactly what kind of fluttering he would need to do with his hands.

What would be a dance performance without nattuvangam? We can have the Dhananjayans act as the nattuvanars. You may raise the objection that nattuvangam in Kathakali is unheard of. Well, somebody has to pioneer a new conceot and why not the Cleveland Aradhana?

You thus have the perfect Fantasy Dance Performance. The show will go down in history. Cleveland Organizer will be known as the Great Conciliator for getting T M Krishna to sing with Saxophone. The event itself will be billed The Fantasy Reconciliations: for reconciling Krishna with Kadri, for reconciling Kathakali with nattuvangam, and for the audience reconciling itself to this sad spectacle. The unwashed masses would love the gathering of the stars and the event would merit a special eight-page supplement to the Friday Review in The Hindu which would sponsor an encore performance in Chennai. Jaya-TV would broadcast the program in its entirety as a favor to Mylapore Mamas and Mamis whose only question would be why an abhang in Basant Bahar was not included in the music!
Gentle readers, you heard it here first! Don’t be surprised to see this event featured next year at the Cleveland Aradhana!

This is precisely what would happen if we allow moneybags and the clueless public to dictate the course of Carnatic music.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 04 May 2010, 13:14

Harimau
Your writeup in your usual style is really well done , you just remind me as a combo of TN Seshan(in facts) and Cho RAMasamy(in humour). But looking at from other side possibly you are only highlighting problem statements and not taking any steps towards a solution. I some how feel the core problem is more with the rasikas than with the organizers or even the artists. We dont flock and show patronage for concerts that are classy, critical mass of rasikas in spending dime in supporting classicism is the key.

anonymityatlast · Post by **anonymityatlast** » 04 May 2010, 14:44

Hey, harimau, your post makes nice reading.

But you should separate paragraphs in long posts with two linefeeds to make more comfortable reading. The way this paragraph is separated from the previous one.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 04 May 2010, 15:27

Right now it appears that the windbag has the most pernicious effect

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 04 May 2010, 19:26

I know an incident; one of the namasankeertan fame was invited for dinner by a guest and the guest requested this namasankeertan fame to sing a certain favorite bhajan. He told them "please invite me officially for bhajan and then I will sing" - no money no bhajan

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 04 May 2010, 20:08

Nidhi sala sukama? [Munirao Avl, kindly excuse.]
Thanjavooran

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 05 May 2010, 01:52

From one who likes innovations

AND well written essays:
Great piece of work! hrimau after all is a true rasikA (hey! we may not like the same performers, so what?).
Yes, he is a rasikA, a true one at that.
As for the essay (the fantasy?), it is one of his best. Several great writers were later called seers for their penning unrealistic works in their times. harimau's fantasy is not far fetched it seems, looking at instances which we may face as reality in the near future.

Rajesh,
Note that harimau speaks highly of MMI (we both love it and thus know that harimau is not against innovation, after all).
So, what do we do? Ask the 'giving hands' (rather than call them 'money bags') to do some soul searching: If you are pOshakAs of CM, make sure to give the money in the name of traditional music. You may also support mish mash music and specify it as such.
I am not kidding. They will understand. They give their money to temples and also spend it on weddings and birthday celebrations which are beyond imagination. Make them realize that their alms to CM is like the one to temples. Giving to anything else which pretends to be related to CM is exactly like spending money on an inane lavish bash.
After all, the corporate crowd are particular about knowing in detail each category of expenses that they incur and to label them correctly.
Yes, harimau. We may think differently on tradional and innovative artistes WITHIN the CM realm but I am with you when it comes to hodge podge, non-creative sounds which have no intrinsic values at all.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 05 May 2010, 05:28

Looking back Thyagaraja himself may have fantasied that in future vidvaans will be singing his compositions accompanied by a foreign instrument which his contemporary Dikshitar was tinkering with. How could the divine veena be replaced by such an exotic abomination, he sure would have wondered. He certainly would have shuddered at the thought of persons being paid to sing his compositions. Let alone a samadhi being constructed for him with annual celebrations with glaring lights and by women in gaudy make-up singing together in apashruti and a man in monkey make-up (ati pATalAnanam) (who was an expert in that exotic instrument playing fancy tunes) vigorously shaking his fingers above his head supposedly maintaining tALa!

By the by I wonder why your Fanasyland is Cleveland rather than Mylaporeland

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 05 May 2010, 06:26

Dear Harimamu,
I was happy to read your interesting comments about FANTASY CONCERTS as well as those reg MMI.
0) It is not true that MMI did not sing Varnams in his concerts. He has sung quite a few in his early career& I have at least a coupleof Bhairavi&Mohanam Varnams recordings...../Later in his career he changed format of his concerts. Similarly he has sung Nalu Kalai Saukkm in RTP etc but later on changed to Mazhavaraya Subbarama Bhagavathar schools Pallavi style. Sri k.s.kalidas(last disciple of palani) illustrated how MMI has changed nadais etc in Thullumadha vetkai(Tirupugazh)just in kalpana swarams in Sarvalaghu in a lecture on MMI Remembrance day celebrations I arrange every year in Chennai.
1) MMI'S Centenary is in 2012 not 2011. I am heavily involved- by this I mean I am spending all my free time(being retired this means ALL my free time on this project) trying to come up with two DVD'S-Data& Music- trying to cover ALL aspects of MMI which I hope to distribute free....Incidentally PMI'S 100TH is also in 2012.
I SOLICIT& WELCOME IDEAS from perceptive persons like you to make these celebrations BETTER. Same is true for next year V.R.Pillai's centenary celebrations too. You can write me at: [email protected] forward to your suggestions. vkv

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 May 2010, 12:22

So, money is to be banned from the holy world of carnatic music --- is it, then, only to be performed by homeless wandering monks? Surely, even Thyagaraja had to eat?

By the way... Is there any reliable record of what Thyagaraja actually thought of the violin? I wonder what he would have thought of the idea of spending the rest of eternity having his spirit assailed by the projected prejudices of others?

anonymityatlast · Post by **anonymityatlast** » 05 May 2010, 12:47

Nick H wrote:Surely, even Thyagaraja had to eat?

But he ate music! |(

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 May 2010, 13:47

No wonder the poor man was so thin

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 05 May 2010, 13:56

Nick,

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 05 May 2010, 14:52

And some months back there were 75 keyboards on stage at the Narada Gana Sabha which caused a dimming of the lights all over Tamil Nadu and the burning out of a couple of transformers, proving that the electricity grid has better musical sensibility than the rasikas of Chennai!

Hilarious! Did this really happen, or is harimau stretching the truth a bit here?

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 05 May 2010, 14:54

rajeshnat wrote:But looking at from other side possibly you are only highlighting problem statements and not taking any steps towards a solution.

Stating the problem clearly goes a long way to coming up with a solution.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 May 2010, 19:05

So, what IS the problem? The gray and subjective area between 'reaching out to the masses' and 'pandering to the masses' skews towards the latter. I do not think there is majority agreement that is how things are and that is where the future of CM is going. One-sided anecdotal evidence is not necessarily a representation of the full picture.

My worry is the opposite. Such genuine concerns for the future of CM is sometimes used to stifle and criticize anything new and innovative that is attempted. That only shows a lack of confidence in the strength of CM, that somehow any attempts at innovativion will destroy CM as we know it. That is a very defeatist attitude. I think both the old and new can co-exist.

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 05 May 2010, 20:11

With all due respect, there is a far more pernicious effect here, which will keep Carnatic music bottled up.

There are bound to be many people who enjoy classical music, but perhaps not the same classical music that the elite few would recognize. Even when they come to katcheris, they are very defensive (I don't know anything about ragam/talam/carnatic but I like this piece) and can easily be scared away by people who expound "why, this is nothing. You should have listened to (insert favourite artist name) sing this in (insert favourite year before 1960)".

Now coming to the few people who are able to afford to support classical music, either directly or through associations/sabhas, and have a passing interest in music. These are otherwise successful people (they almost have to be, if they are rich) who are used to being in command. But here they are, trying to do something they enjoy and which they see as a responsibility to the future generations, only to be told that their taste is not up to the mark, they are doing a disservice to music by supporting dubious trends etc., etc.,

The gap between rhetoric and reality becomes even more starkly obvious to organizers. If we stage a concert by some highly regarded artists, only a handful of the elite (who don't want to pay more than the minimum ticket price) show up and we lose our shirt. On the other hand, a concert by a popular artist (even if they're mocked by the elite) will fill up the hall, and perhaps even allow us to support some of these highly regarded artist's concerts.

I agree there is a lot of truth in what Harimau says. It is a balancing act. But without popular support, and a lot of money flowing in, CM will be hard pressed to support itself or its practitioners. Do we want talented singers or composers to stay in CM or go off to work in the movies, or worse, remain accountants etc.,?

- Sreenadh

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 May 2010, 20:51

The Death of Carnatic Music is Just a Wild Exaggeration

Out of the hundreds, if not thousands including the season, of concerts here in Chennai, just a few are those "populist" programs that play to large, packed auditoria.

It is not worth a moment's worry.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 05 May 2010, 21:00

harimau,

As long as there's good, heavy and Carnatic music, I don't have much problem how it's arranged for the concert that much. I don't mind varNams in the middle or in the end; varNams are generally good compositions, and with multiple kAlams, they offer a variety in tempo too. Ten padams in a row will be too slow, but with a few "fillers" or jAvaLis or varNams in between, they won't be bad either.

BUT presenting ten (well-rendered) padams in a row will not be compromising on the values that I respect. It'll just be an ineffective and boring concert.

The effort behind rendering them would be apparent to most involved rasikas. In contrast to ... certain kinds of songs.

Nick H wrote:Out of the hundreds, if not thousands including the season, of concerts here in Chennai, just a few are those "populist" programs that play to large, packed auditoria.

It is not worth a moment's worry.

Yes, the Death of Carnatic Music is a wild exaggeration, but the way the money flows in here is sometimes disappointing. I think that's what harimau wanted to talk about.

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 05 May 2010, 22:12

Nick H wrote:The Death of Carnatic Music is Just a Wild Exaggeration

Yes, but it is not my exaggeration! This is perhaps a digression from the topic of this thread, but my point is that the "best" people will no longer chose it. If your son sang very well, but also got into a good medical school, would you steer him towards a singing career or a medical one? And how would the average person chose?

- Sreenadh

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 May 2010, 02:17

would you steer him towards a singing career or a medical one?

But that, surely, is indeed a digression.

That question is to do with life and society and external affairs, not the internal aspects of musical economics.

One could ask if a parent should inflict on their child a future of living on the modest pickings of Carnatic music!

Bhairav · Post by **Bhairav** » 06 May 2010, 04:08

awesome...i would love to see RaviKiran trying to do Kathakali...may be better than his vichitra veena!!!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 May 2010, 04:30

..wait for him to do kathakali with his Fusion group

natakapriya · Post by **natakapriya** » 06 May 2010, 11:29

is all I can say.

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 06 May 2010, 17:24

harimau wrote:...
This is precisely what would happen if we allow moneybags and the clueless public to dictate the course of Carnatic music.

What an analysis! The sweep of the article in the range of topics touched upon is itself breathtaking but the simple root cause identified in the last sentence leaves me speechless.

-Then Paanan

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 07 May 2010, 11:21

Rajeshnat
"We don't flock and show patronage for concerts that are classy, critical mass of rasikas in spending dime in supporting classicism is the key" - You said it, nothing more need to be said.

Tanjavooran,
I can not excuse please . It is 'Nidhi chala sukhama'.

Rasikaforunites
Let us all be clear, leaving aside musicologist/others stories on the means of Thyagaraja. Thyagaraja was well endowed and the records are available on the transactions of property by Thyagaraja. His father had received the royal patronage. The house of Thyagaraja living was indeed endowment of Serfoji, Maratha King. Thyagaraja was not making a living by unchavritti. He was truly following bhagavatha marga for bhakthi and its propagation. He was contented and not greedy to go after the patronage for accumulation of fame and wealth.
Performers with the goal and objective of entertainers and in offering the pleasure, making money is very normal. They use the KM genre, as they are sufficiently proficient and popular to attract the large audience and paying public/patrons. From time immemorial this is the practice and will continue to be so. The degree of compromise from Classicism only varies according to the performer's choice, trend and times.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 07 May 2010, 18:45

munirao2001 wrote:Thyagaraja was well endowed

Please correct this poor choice of words!
Especially considering you pointed out the 'Nidhi sala' error.
Thank you.

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 07 May 2010, 18:53

Really? That is news to me!

chee chee!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 May 2010, 20:21

Comparing Thyagaraja et al with concert musicians is like mixing apples with oranges. The former were naadopaasakas while the latter are commercial brokers waiting for a kill. The only thing common amongst them is CM just as 'sweetness' is common to all fruits. Only bhajan performers come closest to the naadopaasakas. Other comparisons are odious!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 May 2010, 01:53

ragam-talam wrote:Please correct this poor choice of words!

Actually, he wasn't wrong, it does mean what he meant --- but that meaning is well down the list, and certainly not the one that comes to the mind of a native Brit (or American?). Yes; I roared irreverent laughter when I saw it, and was very tempted by the possible cheeky comments.

Sorry munirao; of course we know that you meant nothing disprespectful. Google, and you will be embarrassed!

It can be a dangerous language!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 May 2010, 01:56

cmlover wrote:Comparing Thyagaraja et al with concert musicians is like mixing apples with oranges. The former were naadopaasakas while the latter are commercial brokers waiting for a kill. The only thing common amongst them is CM just as 'sweetness' is common to all fruits. Only bhajan performers come closest to the naadopaasakas. Other comparisons are odious!

After an apple, is an orange odious?

Anyway, Saint Thyagarajah is surely an item of faith... a faith you might never have had the opportunity to nourish without those "commercial brokers"

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 May 2010, 02:53

Nick,
What our friend CML is saying resonates with me. To see the old and the new in the same light is not possible for me either. T and others were God-driven in the pouring out of theirsongs. The modern kind is offering music on stage where entertainment is part of it (perhaps it enriches the spiritual side of rasikAs too). Their art enables them to make enough money to live by in today's world. So, we are thinking of apples and oranges which have the common factor of sweetness (rasa?).
We as modern day listeners contribute to all this too, of course

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 08 May 2010, 03:02

Nick H wrote:Actually, he wasn't wrong, it does mean what he meant --- but that meaning is well down the list

Nick - I realise you are a native speaker of the language, but you are not quite correct in this instance. The meaning of 'having a large amout of money' tends to be used only in the context of an institution/organisation. E.g. Stanford University has a well-endowed Computer Science department. You seldom use it in this sense when referring to a person.

It can be a dangerous language!

That I agree!
Apologies for the digression.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 08 May 2010, 03:06

cmlover wrote:Only bhajan performers come closest to the naadopaasakas.

That's quite a generalisation. And as always, it's way off the mark.
I can name quite a few bhajan singers who are very money-minded. And a good number of CM musicians who are way down on the greed scale.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 May 2010, 03:14

Hmmm... I guess that Thiagaraja's world just can't be compared with ours --- and I guess that it is a world of which I am almost entirely ignorant. Still, though, for better or worse, unless one is to lock oneself away with the notation and rely on a meditative internal rendition and appreciation (perfectly possible, I'm sure, for many of the scholars on this forum), the renderings by our all-too-human performers is all we have!

I agree with ragam talam that it is a very unfair generalisation.

ragam-talam... I wonder if the usage of which you speak is American? My knowledge of institutional life in either USA or UK is about as much as my knowledge of Thyagaraja's life, so I really don't know. I hadn't even thought of it --- but one of the listings in google gave the financial defintition, and, on that basis, I admitted that munirao was not entirely wrong. We digress

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 08 May 2010, 10:56

ragam-talam,
Thyagaraja was well endowed is meant to convey that his inheritance and income was well sufficient to take care of living.
Thyagaraja in the lyric 'Nidhi chala sukhama' has conveyed that when compared to the everlasting/inehaustible nidhi/wealth of 'Ramuni sannidhi', the physical and materialistic nidhi/wealth is temporal only. While his yearning is for 'Ramuni Sannidhi', Thyagaraja has not decried possession of 'nidhi'(to support living) and set an example of living free from greed.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 08 May 2010, 11:08

cmlover
If your post/reply is for my post, please be informed that there is no attempt to compare Thyagaraja with performers of KM. Thyagaraja chose not to 'perform' but prefered to be only the vaggeyakara and no basis for the comparision.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 May 2010, 13:52

munirao2001 wrote:Thyagaraja was well endowed is meant to convey that his inheritance and income was well sufficient to take care of living.

We know what you meant, it was obvious. However, that is not the usual meaning of the phrase.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 08 May 2010, 19:32

arasi wrote: What our friend CML is saying resonates with me.

I sincerely hope not. Calling them "commercial brokers waiting for a kill" shows a total lack of respect not to mention hypocrisy.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 May 2010, 21:23

You will know if ever you had negotiated with many of them to arrange for a concert in your small city! You will know if you have spoken to their exploited accompanists who are paid a pittance!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 08 May 2010, 22:12

cmlover wrote:You will know if ever you had negotiated with many of them to arrange for a concert in your small city! You will know if you have spoken to their exploited accompanists who are paid a pittance!

[update]Personal affront deleted

[/update]

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 May 2010, 22:41

suresh
just watch your tone! I thought you want to discuss rationally here on decent terms!
This is a warning!!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 08 May 2010, 23:14

cmlover wrote:suresh
just watch your tone! I thought you want to discuss rationally here on decent terms!
This is a warning!!

[update]Emotional outburst deleted! :$[/update]

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 May 2010, 23:23

Suresh,
I am happy with apples and oranges. After all, both nourish me. There!
To be funny is fine, but not at the cost of 'insulting' fellow forumites. Even the englishman (indian), like us, sometimes has a tough time in understanding the intent of what one says. When we just chase after words and do not pause to think what they may convey can be a bit tricky. If in doubt (after all, we all are not Samuel Johnsons) we can ask for explanation rather than go for the brolly to beat someone up with! Ahem, and a little respect goes a long way (okay, we old folks perhaps expect a bit of that) and a bit of decorum ain't bad on the forum either.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 08 May 2010, 23:33

arasi wrote: To be funny is fine, but not at the cost of 'insulting' fellow forumites. Even the englishman (indian), like us, sometimes has a tough time in understanding the intent of what one says. When we just chase after words and do not pause to think what they may convey can be a bit tricky. If in doubt (after all, we all are not Samuel Johnsons) we can ask for explanation rather than go for the brolly to beat someone up with! Ahem, and a little respect goes a long way (okay, we old folks perhaps expect a bit of that) and a bit of decorum ain't bad on the forum either.

Arasi... Disappointed that you don't have any words of disapproval or regret for someone who tarnishes an entire profession first and then an entire city. I know it cannot be because you are afraid of being warned (in bold)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 May 2010, 23:53

All, I am not here to pass judgment. Let us tone down the heat and also choose our words carefully. In the interest of civility towards each other, let us discuss the topic without personalizing the issue.

To start with, do not comment on this post of mine, it will only extend this conversation and defeat the purpose of my post.
Let us rewind to the few posts above from yesterday and continue.

appu · Post by **appu** » 08 May 2010, 23:56

I am a board member for a music organization. Annually the organization conducts an emerging artist series wherein they invite talented youngsters to perform. The sabha is financially well off with over 600 members. Yet they choose to not pay the young artist and request them to come with pakavadyam and upa pakavadyam and perform a freebee concert.

The Rationale: From the organizers point of view is Hey, we are giving you an opportunity. Why should we pay you. Very true. But it is not wrong to say we would love for you to perform. We cannot pay you as a seasoned artist but here is a token honararium. The dynamics of various members of the board are different. While some are out to exploit the young artist aome are seriously interested in promoting.

From the young artist stand point. I have worked hard to get to this level. I have to pay for my lessons for my travel and for my pakavadyam artist. Rightfully getting a nominal pay is good. But I am in no position to dictate, since I am not yet a seasoned artist. What to do. I have 2 choices "Take it or leave it".

My view point which I expressed at the board meeting. The artist must be of some caliber for us to invite. Given that we as organizers have established that fact, the least we can do is offer them their travel expense ( if any) and an honararium of equal amount to all artist. Of course the board vetoed my suggestion and went with the take it or leave it attitude with the artist.

So, CML and Suresh. In any business, negotiation is a must. It is healthy for both parties, the economy and the morale of the artist. Asking an organizer not to negotiate is imposible at the same time making an offer that offends the artists pride is also uncalled for. A fine medium has to be reached otherwise the rasikas loose out.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 09 May 2010, 00:10

Encouraging concerts of young and budding artists is a good practice; but also giving the artist and pakkavadyams a token gift certificate to cover their travel expenses will be a good gesture.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 May 2010, 00:12

Suresh,
Sorry, if I come across as being insensitive. Knowing CML's passion for CM and his concern for its well being, I do not doubt the validity of what he means, though he expressed it all rather vehemently.

VK,
Spot on!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 May 2010, 00:14

Appu,
Thanks for your post and its constructive comments. It helps a great deal at this point