Janya Ragams' List with more than one Parent Ragam ?

[Sundar Krishnan]

Hello, [dt : 3rd May, 2010]

As per http://www.karnatik.com/c1147.shtml, the PD song "Rama Rama Rama Rama, Rama Enniro" can be sung in Tilang, which is a janyam of 2 Ragams.

My analysis - pl comment / correct if it is wrong :

The Ar / Av of Tilang = S G3 M1 P N3 S | S N2 P M1 G3 S

Observe that 28 – Hari Kambhoji has N2, whereas 30 – NagaNandini has N3. Hence janya of 2 Ragams !

28 - HarikAmbhOji : | S R2 G3 M1 P D2 N2 S  |  S N2 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S

30 - nAgAnandhini : |  S R2 G3 M1 P D3 N3 S  |  S N3 D3 P M1 G3 R2 S

My Question : I would like to know of the other Janya Ragams in CM with more than one Parent Ragam ?

...

[Sundar Krishnan]

No replies - even after nearly a week ! ?

My Question : I would like to know of the other Janya Ragams in CM with more than one Parent Ragam ?

...

[mohan]

Technically any raga which takes a bhashanga swaram (foreign note to the melakartha raga) could sit under two melakartha ragas eg. Bhairavi, Kapi, Saranga.

[Sundar Krishnan]

Mohan,

I agree on yr point – about notes that are foreign to the Mela (usually, the Mela with the lower number) – but why does http://www.karnatik.com/c1147.shtml specially mention the case of Ragam Tilang as a janya of 2 parent Ragams ?

Below, I have tried to analyse with one example that I encountered some years earlier (of Ragam sUrya), as well as yr 3 examples :

Let us consider Ragam sUrya :

14 | vakulAbharaNam | S R1 G3 M1 P D1 N2 S | S N2 D1 P M1 G3 R1 S
26 | chArukeshi | S R2 G3 M1 P D1 N2 S | S N2 D1 P M1 G3 R2 S
sUrya | S G3 M1 D1 N2 S | S N2 D1 M1 G3 S

sUrya does not have an R at all - so can belong to either parent Ragam, but the parent with Lower Melakartha number usually wins ! ie, sUrya is therefore a janya of |14 – vakulAbharaNam|.

************

Now, to yr example : Bhairavi :
20 | naTabhairavi | S R2 G2 M1 P D1 N2 S | S N2 D1 P M1 G2 R2 S
22 | KharaHarapriya | S R2 G2 M1 P D2 N2 S | S N2 D2 P M1 G2 R2 S

bhairavi |20| S R2 G2 M1 P D2 N2 S | S N2 D1 P M1 G2 R2 S

bhairavi has D2 in Ar, and D1 in Av ; so, again the parent with Lower Mela No (20 - naTabhairavi) wins. Am I right here ?

************

Now, to yr example : Kapi : I assume “default” Kapi => HindhusthAni kApi :

22 | KharaHarapriya | S R2 G2 M1 P D2 N2 S | S N2 D2 P M1 G2 R2 S
23 | gowrimanOHari | S R2 G2 M1 P D2 N3 S | S N3 D2 P M1 G2 R2 S

Kapi [ => HindhusthAni kApi ?] |22| S R2 M1 P N3 S | S N2 D2 N2 P M1 G2 R2 S

Kapi has N3 in Ar, and N2 in Av ; so, again the parent with Lower Mela No (22 - KharaHarapriya) wins. Am I right here ?

************

Now, to yr example : sAran'ga :
65 | mEchakalyANi | S R2 G3 M2 P D2 N3 S | S N3 D2 P M2 G3 R2 S
29 | DhIrashan'karAbharaNam | S R2 G3 M1 P D2 N3 S | S N3 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S

sAran'ga |65| S R2 G3 M2 P D2 N3 S | S N3 D2 P M2 R2 G3 M1 R2 S

Now, unlike yr other 2 examples, here, we have an extra foreign note M1 ONLY in the Av. Is that the reason, why we do not even consider any conflict (with 29 - Shankarabharanam), and simply, directly, grant parenthood to Kalyani ? - even though it is the Mela here with a Higher Mela No ??

Is my reasoning right here (ie, wrt sAran'ga) ?
If not, or if a better explanation is there, pl let me know.

************

Thus, we have 3 cases here :

sUrya is an example where the (conflicting) note itself is absent ;
bhairavi and kapi are egs, where one conflicting note is present in the Ar, and another in the Av ;
sAran'ga is an eg, where the conflict is only in the Av.

Can some musician experts throw some more light into this ? Thanks.

...

[Sundar Krishnan]

To the Admin / Modrerator of rasikas Forum, [9th May, 2010]

Pl consider if the discussions on this Sub :
Janya Ragams' List with more than one Parent Ragam ?
should also be parallelly COPIED to the Thread on :
"Raga & Alapana" : http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=7.

********************

Kindly also look into : http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13112 :
#5 08 May 2010 18:35 :

The query wrt "Idu Bhagya (V?)idu Bhagya" is on Lyrics as well as on the Ragam Identification also in the Audio Clip (I have provided the link from sendspace).

Perhaps, if this too could be parallelly COPIED to "Raga & Alapana", we may elicit better response ??

{I am still to get a reply on the actual Ragam in the Audio Clip ...}

...

[mohan]

Sundar - the janaka-janya classification came only after the existence of many 'janya' ragas. That is, ragas like Bhairavi and Kambhoji were probably in practice before the melakartas that they are said to be derived from (Natabhairavi and Harikambhoji).

Accordingly, there is no hard and fast rule under which mela a janya raga with a bhashanga note is classified.

If the janya raga uses a bhashanga note infrequently (eg N3 in Kambhoji) then it is clear that this raga gets classified under the dominant Melakrtha (Haribkambhoji with N2).

In cases where there are two variations of the swara used almost with equal importance (eg N2 and N3 in Kapi) then I really don't know what the rule is .. mostly I have seen Kapi classified under Kharaharapriya (Mela 22).

[Sundar Krishnan]

Mohan, [Dt 13th May, 2010]

I agree that “Parent Ragam – Janya Ragam” classification is merely a way to fit it all in the structure of 72 Melas that we have defined.

Mohan said : In cases where there are two variations of the swara used almost with equal importance (eg N2 and N3 in Kapi) then I really don't know what the rule is .. mostly I have seen Kapi classified under Kharaharapriya (Mela 22).

The rule, according to me, is the same, which I have enumerated in the case of sUrya and bhairavi :
When a choice comes forth for more than one Parent Ragam to choose from, the Parent Ragam with Lower Melakartha number usually wins !

So, I think, in the case of kapi too :
Kapi has N3 in Ar, and N2 in Av ; so, again the Parent Ragam with Lower Mela No (22 - KharaHaraPriya) {not 23} wins.

***********

I seem to have got the answer for my query on sAran'ga :
In case of a conflicting note in 2 versions – like M1 and M2 in the case of sAran'ga , we will go in favour of the Mela with the “more frequent” of the 2 versions. M2 is more frequent in sAran'ga, and so, we will choose Kalyani as the Parent Ragam – even though the Mela Number of Kalyani is higher here (than 29).
Do you agree with this logic ?

But pl see in the foll posting below, a slight twist, or shall we say, a need to add more stricter rules to the above rule on “conflicting note in 2 versions”.

***********

You have said : N3 is used infrequently in Kambhoji ??
But both N2 and N3 appear in the Av only – with the same frequency ?? – ie, only once each ??

kAmbhOji ................................|28| S R2 G3 M1 P D2........S | S N2 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S N3.P.D2.S

28 | HarikAmbhOji ...................... | S R2 G3 M1 P D2 N2 S | S N2 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S
29 | DhIraShan'karAbharaNam | S R2 G3 M1 P D2 N3 S | S N3 D2 P M1 G3 R2 S

In my opinion, here too, the answer may lie in the same rule :
The Parent Ragam with Lower Melakartha number usually wins !

***********

But, I have an other question here – since you brought up Kambhoji.
I have read that Kambhoji’s “N3.P.D2.S” at the end part of Av is termed as “Pidi”.

Does the “N3.P.D2.S” "extension" also not impart a sense of “Vakra” to the Ragam ? (P D2 is in reverse order ?) Yet, Kambhoji is not termed as a Vakra Ragam like for eg the foll cases :

20 | naTabhairavi......| S ......R2 G2 M1 P D1....N2 S | S N2 D1 P M1 G2 R2 S
Anandhabhairavi |20| S G2 R2 G2 M1 P D2 P N2 S | S N2 D2 P M1 G2 R2 S
D2 makes it a Bashanga Ragam.
G2 R2 makes it zig-zag – a Vakra Ragam. Pl confirm this reason for Vakra here.

22 | KaraHarapriya | S R2 G2 M1 P D2 N2 S | S N2 D2 P M1 G2 R2 S
muKhAri..............|22| S R2........M1 P N2 D2 S | S N2 D1 P M1 G2 R2 S
D1 makes it a Bashanga Ragam.
N2 D2 makes it zig-zag – a Vakra Ragam. Pl confirm this reason for Vakra here.

So, Q1 : I would like to have 3 – 4 other Ragam cases of “Pidi”.
Q2 : Does the term “Pidi” apply only when it is at the end of Arohanam or Avarohanam ?
Q3 : It seems that it is called “Pidi” only when the Pidi-note infuses Bashanga-tvam in the Janya Ragam. Is it correct ?

Q4 : Why is Kambhoji an exception to the “Vakra” Rule ?
I would like to know of other Ragams where this exception has been granted. And why in each case.

…

[Sundar Krishnan]

Continuing with the above msg – an observation :

As far as I could gather, it seems that there are only 3 Ragams ??, where both M1 and M2 appear – also these “both M1 and M2 cases” happen only in the Avarohanam. They are :

HindhusthAni bEHAg |29| S G3 M1 P N3 D2 N3 S | S N3 D2 P M2 G3 M1 G3 R2 S
HamirkalyANi………..|65| S P M2 P D2 N3 S | S N3 D2 P M2 M1 G3 P M1 R2 S
sAran'ga………………|65| S R2 G3 M2 P D2 N3 S | S N3 D2 P M2 R2 G3 M1 R2 S

If there are any more Ragams with “both M1 and M2” in either Ar or Av, or in both, pl let me know.

Further, all these 3 Ragams have some background in Hindustani Music (HM) - am I right.
I therefore wonder if that could be an (one of the many possible) essential requirement for a Ragam in CM to have “both M1 and M2” in either Ar or Av, (in fact, in these 3 cases, only in Av) ??

Here’s a case – in HamirkalyANi – where both M2 and M1 have the same frequency ; so it appears that we need to qualify further the rule that I suggested earlier on “conflicting note in 2 versions” wrt sAran'ga.

That further qualification may ?? perhaps be :
{If M1 and M2 have the same frequency}, AND {if Ar OR Av has either M1 or M2, but not both}, then go by whichever single M is present in either Ar OR Av.
Do you agree with this logic ?

...

[mohan]

The standard aro/avaro for kambhoji is SRGMPDS SN2DPMGRS. N3 is very rare and has not been used in many compositions. Hence I surprised that the site has quoted the N3 at all. Usually Ni3 is used only once in an alapana.

My understanding of 'pidi' is just a phrase that is used in the ragam.

If you 'agree that “Parent Ragam – Janya Ragam” classification is merely a way to fit it all in the structure of 72 Melas that we have defined' then why are you over analysing how janyas are classified?

[Sundar Krishnan]

Mohan, [13th May, 2010]

1) After two good thought provoking replies from you, now a very "casual" reply from you ! ? :

Mohan said : My understanding of 'pidi' is just a phrase that is used in the ragam.

We may not know the exact answer, in which case, we may pass ...
Naturally, one cannot know all the details in any subject.

*****************

2)

Mohan said : then why are you over analysing how janyas are classified?

I don't want to write a detailed reply on this all over again.

I have already replied thus to Enna_Solven to a similar, but probably a bit rough-toned query from her - in an other thread :

"... my view is that once we have a Classification structure in place, it is better that we know the precise rules by which classification for EACH Ragam has been done."

Again, here too, like in Pidi above, it is quite possible that even some of the CM experts may not know ALL the rules of this Classification Structure. Lest some people think that it is just a Mathematical exercise, it must be noted that this Classification Structure was created / defined by expert Musicians only, not some Mathematicians - yes, they might have taken the help of their maths knowledge and logic etc.

In any case, let us NOT argue any further in THIS thread about why one is interested to know the how of the Classification Structure. Atleast, I don't wish to enter into an argument over this.
Some people may NOT be interested in knowing the how, yet some may indeed be ... as I am for sure.

If you wish to see more details of my reply to Enna, pl refer the 2nd part of my Message : #5 12 May 2010 05:44 in http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13192

...

[vasanthakokilam]

Sundar Krishnan: Here a few points on these topics. These are offered for argument sake but just to set your expectations on what you can get out of the discussions in the forums of this kind.

1). Internet discussions of this type are just discussions, you will not get at the level of precision that you may be looking for. My unsolicited advice is to take it easy, have some patience and keep engaged in the conversation as long as there are interested counter parties to this discussion.

2) You are operating on an assumption that there exists a set of rules that cover all these cases. That may in itself be not true.

3) And what you are doing is not necessarily learning about such set of rules that some great musical scholars had devised centuries ago but rather reverse engineer a set of rules based on the observations. That is perfectly fine.
For example, you neatly came up with your own rule based on the prevalence of M1 and M2 for the melakartha assignment. That sounds logical to me. But that is not necessarily set up that way by those learned people centuries ago who devised the classification scheme.

4) I do not know why you are getting a bit hot about the suggestions from Mohan and Enna_solven that the janya raga classification scheme may not be as air tight as you want it to be. This is after all an art form first and if it does not fit in a classification scheme neatly, so be it. And such impressions are widely shared.

5) Though you may not want to reveal why you want to know all this, it will help us to decide what level of discussion we want to engage in. If this is all for your personal learning out of curiosity, that is fine, that is one level. If it is for some scholarly research that you are seeking source material that is an entirely different level. So knowing the background of the dozens of queries you have recently posted helps. And what is your background in CM and the theoretical matters? If you know a lot about this already and you are looking to enhance that at the edges, then a lot of us should be learning from you rather than the other way.

[Sundar Krishnan]

[Dt 13th May, 2010]
Very briefly, so that you do NOT have wrong notions … Pt wise to yr msg :

2) Yr opinion is that there may not be a “a set of rules that cover all these cases”.
Every one is free have his / her own views – my view is there indeed is a set of rules.

I don’t agree that the great Musicians made the classifications in an at-random way, without having some logic / maths behind the choices they made. That some of us may not know it today, is another matter. If indeed a mistake is discovered, experts in CM today would probably take up … I don’t want to argue since I am not an expert.

However, let me add that in most subjects (not all), there is a classification called “Exceptions” because they fail the known logics.

3) I am seeking a logical explanation for the possible rules, which the great Musicians may have applied. Since I am curious, I have proposed a few possible rules that may or may not have been their basis. That is why, I am open to all corrections - if only, someone already knows the correct rule itself, or has a better proposal.
By way of really moving forward in this thread, the one useful confirmation answer from you is : “That (rule wrt M1 and M2 etc) sounds logical to me.”

4) Enna and Mohan and Keerthi etc can definitely have their opinions and convictions ; so do I. All I am saying is that I can’t be forced to change my opinion just because we cannot explain some of the classifications.
If one does not know the exact answer, one can pass - naturally, one cannot know all the details in any subject ; but why question in a negative way, one’s curiosity ?

5) What is there to reveal ? Is it not clear that I am very curious, and that I wish to understand the logics behind the choices instead of just “accepting” ?
I am NOT doing any Research ; I am only trying to learn CM. And I immensely like CM.
Research Scholars will need far-far beyond public forums like these for their serious material.

All my posted queries are either out of curiosity, or to get my guess(es) whetted as in many Ragam(s)-Identifications, or to get the Lyrics etc.

Specially in straightforward Ragam(s) / Taalam Identification in an Audio Clip, I don’t understand how the Ragam(s) / Taalam answer will change depending upon what the author’s level of proficiency is – how does the answer say, in identifying the Clip Ragam as Hamir Kalyani in Rupakam Taalam, or Chala Nattai in Adi Taalam change depending upon whether the author of that query is an expert or a novice ?

In the cases of Ragamalikas’ Audio clips too, most of my queries are accompanied by my own initial guesses at the respective time ranges. If I were so sure, I wouldn’t be raising the query at all.
[So far, I have posted only one Ragamalika query recently – #1 10 May 2010 04:32 in http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13186]

In single Ragam / Taalam Identification cases of Audio clips, the best answer is a correct identification – in just a single line of answer.

In Ragamalikas’ cases, the best answer is just one line for each Ragam (identified correctly), placed in the chronological order of the clip {without missing even small peeks like in GB cases}, plus one Taalam answer.

Similarly, in simple straight (just-)Lyrics’ answers, what has the author’s level of proficiency to do ? Yes, if there is a debate on the interpreted meaning of a composition, that is a different matter.

In matters relating to Ragams Classification etc, an expert member can give out the correct rule(s) - if he already knows ; else, he may agree to the proposed logic rule, or reject by citing atleast one example where the proposed rule is violated (even one example of violation is enough to reject).

I have given a full length reply to yr queries. I do not wish to argue any further.

If someone knows the answer, or is willing to hazard a guess-answer, let them do so. Otherwise, they can pass. But pl don’t question one’s curiosity.

PS : Many of my recent postings – like this definitely, and the one to Enna, and the last reply to Mohan – have all been as only answers to all yr queries / advices so that wrong notions are not built …
So, postings like this one are definitely NOT to be “counted” in yr dozens’ counting.

From my side, I do not wish to post more than 2 each day - as conveyed to rajeshnat.

...