The pernicious effect of moneybags on Carnatic music

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 May 2010, 00:32

If someone cannot understand english expressions that is not my fault. I never meant that ' all ' artistes are avaricious. There are always both good and bad apples! But the situation is getting bad which is not good for the health of CM in the future. Even harimau has sardonically commented on the issue quite sometime back. Here are some facts as I know at present since I am briefly back at concert negotiation circles.

Many visitng artistes (even second-rated ones) demand $3000- to 5000 per concert excluding the pakkavadyams. No small town/city in NA can afford such prices. I am told a price of one lakh for a concert is common place now a days back home. Some visiting artistes give about 20concerts in a month and many of them visit two to three time NA. Hence the average income will be Rupees 50 lakhs (usually tax free with innovative accounting) for a couple of months stint at NA. Why should parents stuggle to get their kids in Medicine when CM is so lucrative? Is it good for the Art itself is yet another question ? Since many can use CM as a pathway to the Film Industry...

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 09 May 2010, 01:09

So long we have gullible and patronizing rasikas for CM are there, visiting artists demand will continue

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 May 2010, 01:29

In fact the rates are decided by the large cities who can afford, and the artistes ask the same rates for other towns as well. In fact many small town residents (CM enthusiasts) drive miles (I know of at least a tragedy where a whole family died on the road driving hastily) to listen to their artiste and do spend close to $1000 to attend a concert!

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 09 May 2010, 05:45

Quality control is the best antidote. Too many people cranking out too much mediocre output is the source of all these problems.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 May 2010, 06:41

VKR has a good point in regard to what SR is stating. It is the market place and hence caveat emptor !

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 09 May 2010, 07:15

Yes. It is interesting that as a forum we return to this issue time and again. Clearly, there is a problem, but as they say - "ignorance is bliss" for many.

I think the only hope is for quality output to come from those who do *not* make a living out of commercial CM performance and/or composition. That would comprise - for example - music academics, and others who pursue these paths purely out of passion and talent.

Are there role models for this ? They should take a stronger stand in coming years. But I observe the opposite trend. Instead of making their works freely available (subject only to proper citation and attribution), they seem to be jumping on the commercial bandwagon as well.

SR

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 09 May 2010, 09:57

cmlover wrote: Why should parents stuggle to get their kids in Medicine when CM is so lucrative? ...

Is that an implicit assumption that CM is somehow easier than Medicine? Performing musicians and their parents have put in hours of work to get where they are. Nothing wrong in them demanding money. These guys have taken the riskier path instead of opting for a cushy bank/consultant job and deserve all the money they get. By all means, comment on the quality of their music but saying that they are getting more money than they deserve is not right.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 May 2010, 12:00

There is nothing wrong with any professional demanding money --- and there is everything wrong with expecting experience, practice and performance to be delivered up for free, perhaps especially to an audience of whom many have more in the bank than a performer might dream of. Performers are not monks and nuns. That is to say not only that they should not be required to live lives of poverty and deprivation whilst the wealthy enjoy their music, but also that there is no organisation or institution to put even rough clothes on their backs and rice in their stomachs.

It has been pointed out that Thyagaraja was well-endow..... err, I mean, not short of a rupee or two; Swathi Thirunal had the advantages of a royal family. How has this myth grown up of real carnatic artists being equated with ascetics?

There is nothing wrong with demanding payment, but it is fair to question how, and how much. The entire ethos of the foreign tour, and its remuneration according to an economy where expenses and payments are many times that of home, and the effect of that on the attitudes of those who get those opportunities bears examination. I suspect it began with what was seen as the only chance to get some decent cash, and, yes, may well have escalated, for some, into pure greed, or, at least, the intention to get as much of that cash as possible. Do remember also, that these people see their Hindustani star cousins not even willing to talk about playing without payment being in thousands of dollars/pounds. Perhaps a very unfair situation has bred some less than perfect attitudes.

(at this point, I have to go out, so my post is shorter than it might have been. I'm sure the subject will still be going on when I get back

)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 May 2010, 21:47

Nick,
You are known for your sensibilities and tolerance--except when it comes to minding our manners in the concert hall

and may our intolerance increase when it comes to chattering and vigorous tAlam keeping among audience.
You said it right. Yes, why not? Let them make some decent money when they perform abroad but not let greed guide them. It is a fact though that those in far away places with not many CM minded citizens find it difficult to arrange concerts if much of the money has to come out of their pockets every time! As a result, many CM fans drive hundreds of miles to listen to a CM concert .
Yes, one factor for this trend is that their HM counterparts rake in the money. Another is their resenting the fact that a few among them demand more money and get it too. The problem there is twofold. So and so gets paid more than I do? I am equally good, if not better. Am I not cheated out of the money?
What can the rasikAs do? Go to more concerts (not just during the season) and show their support for the music they love and make it a ritual to go to live concerts regularly.
You do Nick, and I applaud you for that

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 May 2010, 23:39

Thank you, Arasi

But let me confess that I have got so used to getting my music for free that I find myself, come December, wondering why I should pay to see someone I can see for free in November or January! So no claims of any sort of perfection from me! I can, at least, say that when I lived in London, concert-going was a noticeable part of my budget.

There are stories that one hears, online and off, of such things as treatment of accompanists, or heavy-handed treatment of some poor rasika for mere possession of a tape, as random for instances, that make me feel pretty bad. I guess that concert organisers do often get to see the bad side of musicians (and vice versa, of course!). I said we shouldn't expect performers to be monks and nuns: perhaps we shouldn't expect them to be angels, either!

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 10 May 2010, 10:58

Ragam-Talam and Nick,
About the use of the word 'endowed'. Oxford Dictionary says-endow.v. 1.provide with property or a permanent income. 2.(be endowed with) possess a quality or asset.endowment.n. Am I wrong in the use of the word?
Forunites
Why many of us feel aggrieved on the critical aspect of remuneration/fees/compensation request/demand from performers? They strive and offer intellectual satisfaction through their music, which is considered as highest offering and they get paid. While we are willing to pay for all the other products and services much higher price, why we are aggrieved at paying a pittance in comparision? The problem is with our mind set. Karnatic music with strong links to the religion and with the ideal of making money considered bad and unworthy, makes us to feel that performers should not seek/ demand compensation/fees, which they estimate and command, at the given point of time. If we correctly understand their offering and action as entertainers, with quality, we will feel happy to have paid right price or 'deal' price for their services.
Whether performers offering quality music but, not popular get paid or paid the right price ( truly, getting royally cheated) and cultivated habit of 'freebies' culture of rasikas are the serious questions needing the corrective actions by all the stakeholders for the healthy growth of Classical KM.

( mod note: R-T, Nick: please clarify the other meanings you have in mind to sri. munirao by personal email )

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 10 May 2010, 11:08

Forumites
I regretfully and with pain recall one experience on the demand of fees/remuneration. A Doctor friend of mine was telling me that she was shocked by the demand of a Maestro a fee of Rs.500 per class for teaching a select and rare composition to her daughter( it happened some time in the year 1997/98). I pointed out to my friend that the maestro was gracious in charging only (paltry sum) Rs.500 per class, considering the number of years of learning, practicing, performing and perfecting the composition and also when my friend's daughter spends equal or higher amount on pizzas/other eateries, my friend does not mind at all.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 May 2010, 15:54

Munirao, you are not wrong in your definition, but English is a language that is very rich in idiom, and a word can change its understood meaning in a different phrase, or a phrase change its meaning in a different context. This is also a source of amusement to the English sense of humour. Google, as I said, will tell you the commonly understood meaning of the phrase. Check it out; perhaps share a blush and a giggle with us --- and then let's move on from this accidental diversion.

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 10 May 2010, 18:05

Nick H wrote:There is nothing wrong with any professional demanding money --- and there is everything wrong with expecting experience, practice and performance to be delivered up for free, perhaps especially to an audience of whom many have more in the bank than a performer might dream of. Performers are not monks and nuns. That is to say not only that they should not be required to live lives of poverty and deprivation whilst the wealthy enjoy their music, but also that there is no organisation or institution to put even rough clothes on their backs and rice in their stomachs.

It has been pointed out that Thyagaraja was well-endow..... err, I mean, not short of a rupee or two; Swathi Thirunal had the advantages of a royal family. How has this myth grown up of real carnatic artists being equated with ascetics?

Couldn't agree more!

Nick H wrote: There is nothing wrong with demanding payment, but it is fair to question how, and how much. The entire ethos of the foreign tour, and its remuneration according to an economy where expenses and payments are many times that of home, and the effect of that on the attitudes of those who get those opportunities bears examination.

This would be true if these opportunities were limited. But with so many US sabhas and sponsoring organizations, I think any artist who wants to perform abroad can do so.

Chennai Vs. US is an interesting optimization problem for artists, although they may not consciously think of it that way. US is more remunerative, but unless they are highly regarded in Chennai, they won't get concerts in the US! Sabhas in the US do believe in encouraging upcoming local artists, but when we get an artist from India, we expect the finished product

So I don't think there is much of a tension between US and Chennai "markets" because they are offering different things to the artist.

There *is* a tension, though, between small and big sabhas in the US (and perhaps in India, I just don't know). The artists naturally look at $/performance, not $/listener, and the bigger sabhas are able to pay more. In small markets like New York (yes, unfortunately) we have had to miss out several highly regarded artists' concerts because we couldn't afford the fee. But this is not a sin on the artists' part, it's just how life is.

Organizers are not crooked operators trying to make a fast buck by exploiting artists. Many, if not all, are passionate and deeply committed individuals, spending a lot of time and their own money to get live Carnatic music concerts into their communities. They can't also be expected to do social engineering, and make sure that accompanists get paid fairly, or that younger artists are treated well by the system. Their objective is, and I thing should be, to get the best "deal" for their community and get as many performances, of the highest possible quality, as possible.

I agree some changes are necessary, and forums like this are a good place to start talking about it .. but it may help to see all sides of the issue first, and realize that there are fewer villains that it seems at first sight, and artists as well as organizers (as well as "moneybags" sponsors) are just trying to do their best ..

- Sreenadh

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 May 2010, 21:47

Sreenadh,
Yes, finally, it is the rasikA communities in our towns that count.
Yes, those who see organizers abroad as money makers do not understand how much time, money from their own pockets and efforts go into the business of bringing music to the community. Unless you live away from India and crave for live music as you would crave for your old home cooked food, you may find it difficult to understand all this. Then there is the joy all the efforts bring when some non-CM listeners come into the fold by being exposed to the music.. So, all the hard work is definitely worthwhile. Again, there are a few organizers who are not as noble in their intent--just as you find their kind in India too.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 10 May 2010, 22:17

I have been at it since 1960 in N.A. & am still somewhat involved in arranging concerts& tours of Carnatic Music Concert & do know ALMOST EVERY ORGANISER IN N.A. Including me -except may be one or two whose cases I am not familiar with- EVERY ONE HAS LOST MONEY OUT OF THEIR POCKETS- arranging CM Concerts is the SUREST WAY TO LOSE MONEY.
I also wish to state that ALMOST EVERY ARTIST IS VERY CO-OPERATIVE-EXCEPT 2 OR 3 AT MOST-. I would not have taken a pay cut to work myself....VKV

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 May 2010, 22:21

Well said, VKV.
vaSishTar vAyAl...

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 13 May 2010, 10:15

VKV Sir,
It was disheartening to read your post on loosing money in promoting/organizing KM concerts/events, you being a veteran.
What are the results of events in other genre-Hindustani, in particular? If the results are different than that of KM, we should seriously review, study and take all the necessary decisions and actions for the success of KM events.
My personal observation and considered opinion is that lack of professionalism and excellence in event management of KM is the bane. Resources management is the critical factor for the success and the results, besides the other critical factors. In the long term interest of KM, all the stake holders have to infuse professionalism and achieve success.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 May 2010, 20:27

Munirao,
After seeing vkv and his ilk at work, I would not say that 'lack of professionalism and of excellence in event management' applies to them! Nor would North America be evolving as a center for the growth of CM

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 13 May 2010, 23:34

arasi wrote:Munirao,
After seeing vkv and his ilk at work, I would not say that 'lack of professionalism and of excellence in event management' applies to them! Nor would North America be evolving as a center for the growth of CM

Amen. The smallness of the support base for CM may be the biggest factor vis-a-vis HM than anything else. With a small base come smaller budgets, less space to experiment and innovate, more need to be in-market to make sure you don't lose your own personal funds (which, it seems from these reports is not uncommon), etc.

I think it is also a matter of expectation and cultural mores. It has been discussed on this forum in other threads that CM concert goers will simply not spring for the 50 and 100 dollar tickets that are needed to make this a robust enterprise. A friend of mine who plays WM and is interested in Indian Classical Music once commented about the rather spartan arrangements for a CM concert that he attended compared with other HM concerts he had attended before. And this was a bigwig concert -- Unnikrishnan + MSAnantharaman!

-Then Paanan

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 14 May 2010, 00:46

thenpaanan wrote:It has been discussed on this forum in other threads that CM concert goers will simply not spring for the 50 and 100 dollar tickets that are needed to make this a robust enterprise.

CM concert goers will and do spring for such tickets. It's just that those CM concert goers who do are (a) not targeted by traditional CM event organizers, and (b) dismissed as not "true" rasikas by those who discuss these things on this forum. Sometimes, such CM concerts are themselves dismissed as not being true CM concerts.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 14 May 2010, 11:15

arasi,
I am reproducing the extract from my article 'Karnatic Music, Tradition and Enlightenment', which is relevant here:

"I strongly feel that if meritocracy - consisting of both Vidwat , art and craft of performing(delivering total satisfaction to the rasikas)- is given prime or the only consideration by all the concerned - Artistes, Organizers, sponsors, opinion makers and rasikas, we can see the change and change for the better. To determine the merit, a selection/ranking committee, consisting of Great Maestro-Vidwan/Vidushi-respected music critic (with both lakshya and lakshana gnanam,) well respected representative of Organizers-dedicated sponsor (individual/Corporate/NRI)-representative(s) from opinion makers (Individual, print and visual media, music recording co's)-Govt bodies (AIR/State or Central/Sangeeth Natak Acadamy)-representative rasikas, both knowledgeable and lay- to be formed, with a tenure of two years. The committee to evolve transparent methods of selection/ranking of both the current performing artistes and potential/up coming artistes. The artistes should apply for consideration, irrespective of their present status. The results of selection/ranking to be made public. The opportunities to be given to the ranked artistes. If the committee can also recommend min.remuneration/fees, it will be better.
Urging all the stake holders in Karnatic Music-Organizers/Sponsors, performing artists, media and the rasikas make dedicated and committed efforts to make it a Global success.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 May 2010, 19:57

Munirao,
Your thoughts reflect a true rasikA's concerns. A bit utopian for today's world--yet, if only all those whom you name get together in some fashion and bring about the changes, CM will rule the world! Meanwhile, let's hope there will be introspection on the part of all--the performers (am I thinking of the state of the music too while I think of myself and the money?), the organizers (not getting used to their power but focusing on the growth of music), the government (in generously funding traditional music) AND, the rasikAs, by attending concerts regularly and not wincing when it comes to taking out that wallet at ticketed concerts. Not being content listening to what is on the web, radio or TV but feeling energized by it all and taking oneself out to the concert hall often!
Meanwhile, thanks to all artistes, organizers and rasikAs who are keeping CM alive by their love for it.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 14 May 2010, 21:44

the government (in generously funding traditional music) - Our Governor Jindal from Lousiana and similar respected small government believers may object to this

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 May 2010, 01:43

VKR,
I meant the state governments and the central government in India.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 16 May 2010, 11:26

arasi,
My humble suggestion may seem to be 'utopian', but it is not. The various stakeholders are already working together, but not all of them together under one entity in the manner I have suggested. All of them coming together with vision and mission and scientifically researching the ways and means to successfully manage the events and increasing the reach and profile of the rasikas for KM, is eminently possible. It requires leaders with clear goals, objectives, plans and actions. This will happen only with youthful leaders with commitment, dedication , resourcefulness and boundless energy. YACM and SPICMACY are two good examples for successful organization of events. May be leaders who are no longer 'youth', but young enough who are individually or collectively working, can come together and take the lead .

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 May 2010, 20:26

Yes, Munirao. And besides being regular concert-goers, we can also cheer the young generation on to better times and richer musical experience, for the performers as well as the audience.

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 26 May 2010, 21:18

Harimau's article is long winding. I read it twice. (I did not however have the patience to go thro' all the 4 pages of replies.) To summarise, I think that he feels that the "fancy" kacheris conducted today like the GNB fantasy, 108 mridangams, "new formats" by TMK etc., happen because of the need to attract large crowds. Large crowds are a prerequisite to make the non-musical minded sponsor (money bag) to shell out cash. This is not good for CM. I think that is the message he wants to give.

Now, a simple question is, What is the percentage of the Chennai December Music season concerts fall under the category of these fancy concerts described above and what percentage of the concerts - normal traditional format. I would say 10% (maximum) fancy : 90% normal. Then where is the great influence of the moneybags? Where is the risk of cm losing direction and going astray?

My guess is that the author of the article has been as gullible as every one else and had been attracted by attractive titles!! If he and all other puritan music lovers (includes most of us) would restrict ourselves to traditional kacheris, which are available in plenty, and do not fall prey to the advertisement of the moneybags(!) then there is no problem. If someone else is interested in attending the TMK- U Srinivas- Sivamani- Kathakali format why should we grieve about it and blame it all on the innocent moneybag who, after all does not disguise his priority, which is to make more money.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 26 May 2010, 21:47

I feel one should think carefully & explore how to focus& bring out the greatness , creativity & innovative originality of THE GREAT ONES LIKE GNB, MMI etc.....In my opinion there has been ONLY ONE who can PROPERLY PRESENT GNB'S CREATIVE GENIUS & THAT IS GNB HIMSELF& NO ONE ELSE. So the attempts that were made in CLEVELAND this year were the results of EXTENSIVE suggestions by various persons who responded & THESE ARE THE DOERS as opposed to PERSONS WHO TRY TO COMBINE THE usual mundane ASPECTS LIKE ATTRACTING CROWDS, TRYING TO MAKE MONEY ETC & MORALIZING ABOUT OTHERS WITHOUT KNOWING DETAILS ETC. I would be willing to put up with MOSTLY WRONG FACTS if they come up with PRACTICAL WORKABLE IDEAS on how to cover the close to XXX US DOLLAR SHORT FALL EVERY YEAR....
I OPENLY AGAIN REQUEST SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO PROPERLY come up with trying to project MMI & PMI'S CONTRIBUTIONS IN THEIR 100th in 2012; esp from persons who I suspect do not contribute much if any....Its not enough to write clever things well & have a narscisstic satisfaction doing it without addressing the REAL ISSUES. This is NOT meant as criticism of ANY ONE but an attempt to gather insight from any one who has any.....VKV

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 28 May 2010, 00:20

cacm wrote:... I would be willing to put up with MOSTLY WRONG FACTS if they come up with PRACTICAL WORKABLE IDEAS on how to cover the close to XXX US DOLLAR SHORT FALL EVERY YEAR....
.....VKV

Sorry, I can't keep quiet when such statements are constantly being made by the apologists for organisers. If you end up with a deficit of $XXX every year (as you have stated), that just means very poor management on your part. Nothing else.
I can throw a challenge to the organisers to step aside next year, and let others take it up - and show how to end up with a surplus, or at least break-even.
Are you prepared to take up the challenge - or will you keep whinging like this?

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 28 May 2010, 01:21

I AM NOT AN APOLOGIST FOR ANY ONE. As a matter of fact I have been Founder-Member of practically EVERY ORGANISATION since 1959 including East-West Exchange, CAMNA & host of other attempts.
IF YOU ARE WILLING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT I WILL BE HAPPY TO JOIN& DO MY BEST. At 76, I am least interested in USELESS statements like YOURS ABOVE. Why don't you PROPOSE SOMETHING CONCRETE. Let Cleveland, CTU, & any number of others do whatever they do. What are you CONCRETELY BRINGING TO THE TABLE.? YOU can wrtite me at [email protected] if you prefer. By the way I have managed projects upto 5Billion Dollars & somewhat know what it takes. I am NOT a money bag but a RETIREE with an annual income of XXX ....VKV

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 May 2010, 07:40

Tut! Tut!
let us not get excited and get personal.
It is not advisable to discuss organizational or personal finances in a public forum.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 28 May 2010, 09:28

ragam-talam wrote: If you end up with a deficit of $XXX every year (as you have stated), that just means very poor management on your part. Nothing else.

Not necessarily true. It can also be a conscious decision on the part of the organizers to run a charitable/missionary activity.

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 28 May 2010, 18:14

ragam-talam wrote:
I can throw a challenge to the organisers to step aside next year, and let others take it up - and show how to end up with a surplus, or at least break-even.

An idle thought .. why is it necessary for the organizers to step aside, surely these "others" can start a new organization which runs huge surpluses, and rasikas all over the US can benefit from two sets of Cleveland style programs every year?!

- Sreenadh

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 May 2010, 20:23

r-t, you need not have been that belligerent and disrespectful. As to the point you were trying to make, is it possible at all for a highly popular organization and festival like Cleavland Aradhana to balance its books. If it consistently loses money, is it possible to scale down on the operations that are most expensive, take measures to increase revenue and still meet its stated objectives? I do not know the answer, and I think that is what VKV would like to get feedback on. Of course, we can not provide any useful feedback because we do not have the data. All we can say is, cut expenses, cut programs, increase revenue until the deficits are small enough to be covered by charitable donations by the organizers. But that is all easy to say, I agree.

But in all this excitement, VKV's relevant point to the topic of this thread is lost, namely, not all organizers are necessarily moneybags, in fact the biggest one of them all is losing money.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 May 2010, 20:37

vasanthakokilam wrote: But in all this excitement, VKV's relevant point to the topic of this thread is lost, namely, not all organizers are necessarily moneybags, in fact the biggest one of them all is losing money.

well done VK!
you have brought the crucial point in focus. It is a telling retort to Harimau's thesis!

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 28 May 2010, 21:48

cmlover wrote: "But in all this excitement, VKV's relevant point to the topic of this thread is lost, namely, not all organizers are necessarily moneybags, in fact the biggest one of them all is losing money."
well done VK!
you have brought the crucial point in focus. It is a telling retort to Harimau's thesis!

Dear Vasanthakokilam,
As usual you have expressed the core of the points I was trying to get across far better than I did. THANK YOU........
In reality to my knowledge CLEVELAND- for that matter ALL Organisations& individual sponsors- CONSTANTLY review EVERY YEAR'S EFFORTS & try to implement more practical things. This year's Cleveland Festival benefitted by a huge& unexpected 25K donation from ONE PERSON. I have to ask rest of the committee as well as the person if names can be revealed here. It is such gratisse that im proves matters. Actually I have tried UNSUCCESSFULLY to arrange get togethers to discuss this problem IN DETAIL- the last one was in Cleveland during the festival when VVS cancelled 4 appointments & 8 persons(who already knew all thre details) instead of close to FORTY who had written me they will be there showed up....
The idea of REDUCING the scope has been tried but the SPONSORS are naturally AGAINST it as well reducing the duration from 2 weeks etc. In short it is NOT OBVIOUS what the ideal solution is. I am sufficiently modest I write about these here in the hope SOMEONE will come up with the magic bullet. It is easy to get jaded & spend time listening to the 10TB of Great Stuff I have collected over 50 years.......VKV

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 May 2010, 23:05

Dear VKV
If the problem is financial you are unlikely to get any solution from this Forum. If it is organizational you may find answers from those who have experience in running similar programs elsewhere eg., mohan from the Sidney Festival or Jayaram who is starting one in London and there may be others. For most of us CTU is a successful experiment to be emulated in many other centres. Actually we wish to know how you did it (don't have to disclose Trade Secrets)

By the by are you getting funds from Govt sources as well as Philanthropic agencies (CM unrelated) like churches/temples etc., Other centres may be interested in trying similar approches. We have room for a dozen Clevelands in NA! Unless there is support from a Henry Ford or Rockefeller, a program of your magnitude cannot be sustained purely based on private donations IMHO..

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 29 May 2010, 00:07

Dear Mr VKV:
My strongly worded post was meant to provoke. Leaders of organisations (whether for-profit or otherwise) should try to avoid putting the blame on others for why their organisations are not able to succeed. Your complaint on a public forum like this, saying that the Cleveland aradhana organisation has been running deficits (of fairly substantial amounts) for the past few years, then putting the blame on the public, smacks of a lack of understanding of how to run a successful organisation.

I have seen the Cleveland group at close quarters from its early days when we used to volunteer with food, accommodation for people from out of town etc. I felt it had a 'soul' those days. I am sad to say that quite a bit of that soul has been lost in its transformation into the mega event that it has become today.

What worked when it was a small, close-knit, informal group cannot necessarily work now. You need to have a fresh re-think of the vision of the organisation, and come up with innovative ideas to help it grow.

To those people who say it's 'just' a charity organisation, hence doesn't need to match its books, all I can say is this: it's precisely because it's a non-profit/charitable organisation that one needs to be even more prudent with its finances and ensure it's run well. (Else it will end up being a 'charity case' itself!)

Peter Drucker, the original thinker in management, towards the latter half of his life spent a lot of time thinking and writing about how non-profit organisations should be run. You can take a look at his classic 'Managing the Nonprofit Organization' for sound ideas.

Some pearls of wisdom:
"Convert donors into contributors," urged Mr. Drucker, meaning that if nonprofit groups are to acquire more financial resources, those who give will need to feel more like participants. And learn how to offer volunteers a greater sense of "community and common purpose,"...
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnf ... db_085.htm

I have personally been involved with running a few organisations in the field of Carnatic music. I can share some ideas with you if there is interest.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 29 May 2010, 00:52

I am VERY FAMILIAR with Peter Drucker's work & actually have taken courses with him as I had to manage HUGE PROJECTS tho' I am a research scientist; You may be surprised to hear this........Also I found out I was hired NOT for my suspect "BRAINS" but for the ability to BRING IN THE DOUGH. A bitter surprise when I was younger....
Lets forget about how Cleveland or how anything else was. Since you have been kind enough about offer to SHARE your practical ideas lets cirrespond. My email is: [email protected] I feel it may be a better avenue than this forum. I WILL BE HONEST about what has been tried& why, which succeeeded etc.....Of course it REQUIRES LOT OF PERSONS TO RUN A THING LIKE THIS & in a fairly democratic set up you can imagine the difficulties but AT LEAST EVERY ONE INVOLVED IS HONEST....
By the way I am very proud of the ordinary JOES in MADRAS IN MADRAS not the "MONEY BAGS" who are responsible for Carnatic music for where it is today. They were ACTUALLY VERY POOR IN TERMS OF ECONOMICS.
I can NEVER forget the contributions. Times were different & I can tell you if one was lucky to have spent time with MMI, MSS,&MALI as WELL AS REALISE THE CONTRIBUTIONS OF persons of likes .... . of PERAMBUR SANGEETHA SABHA SETHURAMAN & TODAY there are still a few like Thiruvanmayur Asthika Samajam Narasimhan, Nadopasana Srinivasan whose STATUES should be unveiled in Music Academy ....There is NO POINT in complaining or attributing to :"money bags". To me thats the wrong reading of things.......VKV

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 29 May 2010, 01:15

cmlover wrote:Dear VKV
If the problem is financial you are unlikely to get any solution from this Forum. If it is organizational you may find answers from those who have experience in running similar programs elsewhere eg., mohan from the Sidney Festival or Jayaram who is starting one in London and there may be others. For most of us CTU is a successful experiment to be emulated in many other centres. Actually we wish to know how you did it (don't have to disclose Trade Secrets)
By the by are you getting funds from Govt sources as well as Philanthropic agencies (CM unrelated) like churches/temples etc., Other centres may be interested in trying similar approches. We have room for a dozen Clevelands in NA! Unless there is support from a Henry Ford or Rockefeller, a program of your magnitude cannot be sustained purely based on private donations IMHO..

I AM NOT WRITING TO EITHER GET FUNDS OR CRYING ON OTHERS SHOULDERS.Most of my responses are just to set things straight when wrong information is presented& if lightning strikes may be a solution will present itself.......Incidentally CLEVELAND had LOTS of INSTITUTIONAL SUPPORT which have VANISHED due to various reasons. I AGREE with you that outlook is BLEAK unless some other MIRACLE like VVS occurs. This whole phenomenon is A TIME LIMITED EVENT which will be replaced things on the scale of ctu. EVEN THAT in my opinion will disappear after Tes Raghavan's involvement .............It will be up to today's Zamindars who can do good or at least I hope not bad.......VKV

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 29 May 2010, 07:47

ragam-talam wrote: Peter Drucker, the original thinker in management, towards the latter half of his life spent a lot of time thinking and writing about how non-profit organisations should be run. You can take a look at his classic 'Managing the Nonprofit Organization' for sound ideas.

Some pearls of wisdom:
"Convert donors into contributors," urged Mr. Drucker, meaning that if nonprofit groups are to acquire more financial resources, those who give will need to feel more like participants. And learn how to offer volunteers a greater sense of "community and common purpose,"...
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnf ... db_085.htm

I have personally been involved with running a few organisations in the field of Carnatic music. I can share some ideas with you if there is interest.

From the sublime to the ridiculous! I don't think the "Peter Drucker" bromide will help retain the quality of carnatic music at a level that will be tolerated by many. In fact the original rant from harimau was bemoaning these "management" strategies that end up destroying the very essence of what they purport to nourish.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 May 2010, 08:52

The high tech boom made quite a few zamindars (millionnaires). They could indeed pitch in. Unfortunately the weather is not too good now ... Let us weather it out..

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 29 May 2010, 10:40

cmlover wrote:The high tech boom made quite a few zamindars (millionnaires). They could indeed pitch in. Unfortunately the weather is not too good now ... Let us weather it out..

Its amazing not a single North American Zamindar has lifted a finger-except the proverbial middle one- when it comes to helping out in helping out ANY efforts reg. Carnatic music!...It has nothing to do with today's economic situation etc......May be the good Lord wants us to live by the HIGH IDEALS in the compositions! VKV

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 29 May 2010, 15:47

vasanthakokilam wrote:
But in all this excitement, VKV's relevant point to the topic of this thread is lost, namely, not all organizers are necessarily moneybags, in fact the biggest one of them all is losing money.

I never called the organizers moneybags.

Moneybags are those who shell out a bit of money and expect huge returns.

It could be a bank or an industrialist hawking their wares.

Or it could be the ordinary rasika who hands over a generous check for $5,000 but then expects abhangs, "Vishamakkara Kannan" or the Blind Monkey Song.

All are equally guilty.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 29 May 2010, 16:05

ragam-talam wrote:
Sorry, I can't keep quiet when such statements are constantly being made by the apologists for organisers. If you end up with a deficit of $XXX every year (as you have stated), that just means very poor management on your part. Nothing else.
I can throw a challenge to the organisers to step aside next year, and let others take it up - and show how to end up with a surplus, or at least break-even.
Are you prepared to take up the challenge - or will you keep whinging like this?

Do you want someone to hand over $250,000 and a list of artists to you so that you can manage the Cleveland Thyagaraja Aradhana?

You can then do a "Neutron Jack", bring in 3 singers with one violin and mridangam each, have the function over in one day and show a surplus.

The skill comes in raising that $250,000; in managing those artists whose non-ethical behavior will raise your blood pressure; managing the expectations of those artists who think that milk and honey is flowing through the gold-paved streets of America and so why can't they help themselves to the paving material; etc., etc., etc.

If anyone thinks they can do a better job, they are welcome to try it in his hometown.

The problem as I pointed out is that the sabha secretary becomes the "juiceman" who is expected to squeeze/beg/borrow/steal on behalf of the ungrateful artists.

If the sabhas don't exist, we will know exactly how many of the banks, industrialists, merchants, etc., will be hosting concerts in their premises.

Zero is the answer.

As I said, at least the maharajas could cultivate the arts because after the British rule, they couldn't go to war against a neighboring raja whereas today's sari merchants have to duke it out daily on Usman Street in T-Nagar. They view SR or any other singer as yet another gun in their advertising war. They couldn't care less about music.

As to the artists who think that the sabha secretaries are doing this because they are on an ego trip (one singer actually said this to someone in LA), I think one day all the North American sabhas should do a 3-year shutdown of activities and then show the singer what income loss to the artists a real ego trip on the part of the organizers entails.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 May 2010, 17:13

I suspect that a lot of that is true, but I have to stick up for the sari merchant: without his support, and that of one or two other prominent businesses, the number of concerts in Chennai would be vastly reduced.

I think it is also true to say that, unlike some of the banks and financial institutions, he does not have the stage festooned with his advertising banners. I guess we must grant commerce its pound of flesh. Sometimes I think it becomes too many pounds --- but not in the case of our sari merchant.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 29 May 2010, 20:09

I agree with you Nick! The sorry man (yup! I mean sari) is doing a great service to CM...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 May 2010, 21:24

SElai viTRa kAsu kalaikkAgAdA? (as in nAi viTRa kAsu kuRikkumA?).
Money made from selling saris won't do for the arts? (as in would the money one got from selling a dog bark?).
Another reason Nick speaks up is because the said gentleman is very 'frugal' with his words when it comes to speeches in concerts--bless him for that!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 May 2010, 22:13

--- in fact, he always seems slightly embarrassed on stage, and scuttles away as soon as he can!

I have only had the pleasure of speaking to the said gentleman once. From that experience, and everything I have heard about him, he seems to be a humble and gentle man with a sincere interest in music and a sincere wish to support it.

(Of course... he is a successful businessman: necessarily there must be limits to "gentle"

--- but that does not concern us here; the sponsorship necessarily depends on the business success.)