What would you call this?

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 26 May 2010, 08:25

http://chicagotyagarajautsavam.org/Word ... ge_id=2551

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 26 May 2010, 08:27

http://chicagotyagarajautsavam.org/WordPress/?p=2389

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 26 May 2010, 08:41

The page take a while to load but its kind of worth the wait! (I couldn't access the fee page)

I am sure the organisers are trying to run a smooth and disciplined aradhana festival in Chicago but the Code of Conduct reads more like something for a Military training camp or prison, with specifications for how the hair should be kept and the surrendering of mobile phones!

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 26 May 2010, 08:44

Oops ! Are the links working for you? The links opened only once, later onwards there has been some Database error showing up.
Lemme see if I can paste the contents here soon.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 26 May 2010, 08:59

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 26 May 2010, 09:01

http://chicagotyagarajautsavam.org/Word ... ge_id=2551

Code of Conduct

General

* Participants (children and adults) must have regularly attended the CTU Pancharatnam practice sessions to be seated on the stage.
* Participants are also required to pay the applicable rates

Dress Code:

* Boys/Men: Veshti (Dhoti) or Paijama and Shirt/Kurta (White or Cream color would be preferred)
* Girls: Indian attire only (South Indian attire like Pawadai/Dhavani/Saree strongly recommended)
* Participants are requested to not wear Jeans, T-shirts, shirts with printed messages etc. on the stage.

Appearance

* Hair should be braided or tied back so that there is no hair covering any portion of the face in the front
* Ornaments should be restricted to the hands, neck, ears and nose

Behavior

* Leave your cell phones with your family members in the audience
* Keep the beat (thalam) softly by tapping rather than clapping hard
* Concentrate on the overall performance
* Respect the presence of the other artists and the audience by maintaining silence if and when you are not performing at any point of time

Procedure

* Children must remember their respective seat numbers to facilitate easy seating on stage before the performance
* Obtain your stage passes
* Carry your stage passes with you all the time
* After the performance is over, exit the stage last row first to your right
* Go downstairs and line up for the photo session after the Pancharatnam

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 26 May 2010, 09:07

http://chicagotyagarajautsavam.org/WordPress/?p=2389
Participant Payment Guidelines for Utsavam 2010

Participants performing in all CTU events including the ones listed below must pay the rates applicable for the day on which the event is held:

* Vishnu Sahasranama Stotram
* Pancharatna Kritis
* Chetulara
* Utsava Sampradaya Kritis
* Gitarthamu
* Homage to Tyagaraja Sessions including
o Teacher Sessions
o Individual Performances
o Group Performances
o Accompanied Performances

This means the following:

* If a child is performing in the Utsava Sampradaya Kritis (for example), the corresponding family should have made the applicable payment (single/couple etc.) for Monday. This payment is due irrespective of whether the given family had already paid for Saturday.
* Registrants scheduled to perform on Saturday should have made the applicable payment for Saturday.
* If unforeseen delays cause a registrantâ€™s Homage To Tyagaraja performance originally scheduled on Saturday to be moved to Sunday, CTU will honor the payment made on Saturday by the registrantâ€™s to render the same performance on Sunday instead.
* Registrants scheduled to perform on Sunday (e.g. Accompanied Performances) should have made the applicable payment (single/couple etc.) for Sunday.
* Payments made by the registrantâ€™s family for Saturday does not apply towards concerts on Sunday.
* Attendance at all concerts and dance events require the applicable payment for the day of the respective performance.

Utsavam 2010 Tickets

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 26 May 2010, 09:13

http://chicagotyagarajautsavam.org/Word ... age_id=163

Participation Guidelines

CTU strongly encourages all children, regardless of age and training level to attend the Pancharatnam practice sessions and listen and learn from the Kritis being rendered per the CTU standard.

In order to perform the Pancharatnam at the Utsavam, the following rules apply:

Participants must be between 9 and 20 years old as of the Memorial Day weekend.
Participants must have fully learnt all the kritis they are performing prior to the first practice session in April.
CTU requests teachers to ensure that children have at least four years of training and have been trained in Sarali Varisai through Alankaram (3 speeds), Geethams, Swara Jathis and at least 4 Varnams in 2 speeds, before having them participate in the Pancharatnam practice sessions.
The extent to which children can properly render a kriti and their regularity in attendance year around are critical considerations for their seating on the stage. Only those children who can properly sing Sri Ganapathini and all 5 Pancharatnams with visibly accurate Thalam and audible voice will be considered for seating in the first row on the stage.
The front rows in the adult section are usually reserved for teachers. Participants seated in the front rows must be able to fluently sing Sri Ganapathini and all the Pancharatna Kritis fluently.
Participants should be dressed in Indian attire

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 26 May 2010, 14:25

I don't see a problem at all with all this. In fact, I wish other organisations would adopt similar code of conduct and rules.

I can see why they insist on a certain dress code...I bet in past years they have had occasions when someone came on stage wearing a T-shirt with a 'loud' message or torn jeans etc. If participants can't even adhere to such basic standards and discipline, why do they even want to participate in such a special event?

Why do the participants need to have their mobile phones with them while on stage? Why should this restriction be characterised as a military camp or prison? C'mon!

Also insisting on a minimum level of learning before going on stage makes a lot of sense. I have attended aradhanas where participants go totally off key, can't remember their lines etc. Why should this be encouraged?

It seems some parents and children just want to be on stage so that their pictures get taken, their videos get recorded etc. Definitely this attitude needs to be changed if you want to have a meaningful aradhana, not a tamasha.

Go take a look at a choir event or something similar in western culture. See the discipline they have and learn from them.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 26 May 2010, 16:21

Just the manner it is written makes it sound very military-like.
Softer language such as
"Participants are requested to turn off their cell phones during the program" or
"Please wear traditional Indian clothing while performing, as a sign of respect to our culture and the art"

Also, if a student has learnt the 5 pancharatna krithis, then does it really matter if they have not learnt alankaras in three speeds or 4 varnams?

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 26 May 2010, 16:57

Boys/Men: Veshti (Dhoti) or Paijama and Shirt/Kurta (White or Cream color would be preferred)
* Girls: Indian attire only (South Indian attire like Pawadai/Dhavani/Saree strongly recommended)

So why not "South Indian attire recommended" in both lines I wonder. What's convenient for the goose is also convenient for the gander!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 26 May 2010, 17:09

I'm not going to read it all... but it doesn't seem unreasonable to have such a code, and I'm afraid that "requesting" young people, or even older ones, to turn off their cell phones just has zero effect!

Rules like this tend to be reactive. I'm sure the organisers would be able to support the necessity for each and every one.

It seems to be fashionable to criticize and find fault with these organisations.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 26 May 2010, 23:19

Well. I had personally been to one of their practice sessions and later to the CTU itself. The impression I had formed then about them agrees well with their written rules.
My idea is this, which I have formulated from my personal experience in learning, practicing, and performing Carnatic music over several years, to the possible best of my capabilites: The most important quality of Indian Classical music (and generally for anything Indian) is the underlying spirit of imagination and spontaneous innovation, delving deep into the music both intellectually and spiritually. This can never be possible within a rigid, compartmentalized, and disciplined framework of performance and practice as CTU proposes. And if we are teaching CM to the students here in this fashion we are indeed spoiling the spirit of CM and the spirit of India which is ultimately to attain freedom of mind and transcend the constraints of outward appearances (as in the dress code) and financial stipulations. For people who have experienced Indianness in the real depth through its music and other things as yoga, Advaita etc this discipline and organization of the West will prove to be nothing more than an irritation and discouraging factors for obtaining insight into whatever you do .
Making it a rule to put thalam silently is frankly a blasphemy. It neatly contrasts with the spirit of Indian concept of layam which is based on imbibing layam into ones body; the form of outward expression doesn't matter; one could put the thalam loudly, or tap his foot, or waive his hand; someone else may dance to it. This CTU people are just interested to put up a show for the television and youtube (and also perhaps in cultivating prodigies) on the pretext of upholding Indian music, culture and tradition; without analyzing in depth about the ironies they are putting up.

We have Thyagaraja utsavam in our hometown, where perhaps 20 times more people take part. There are no specific sets of rules as in here. Still everyone sings, enjoys, experiences music and over the years it has produced several artists who are professionals now in their field. For me this is more a 'cultural fest' by definition.

Admiration of the West is good; but not blind imitation; without understanding the core of Indianness in its entirety.

Excuse me for dragging in MDR here. He used to recall what Tiger used to say about their style of music, which is more like drilling a mountain to find a rat than like butter melting on a banana leaf !! (hope no more explicit explanation is needed).
I have made my stand clear; You are free for your opinions.
Thanks !!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 26 May 2010, 23:56

reethigowla48 wrote: delving deep into the music both intellectually and spiritually.

Me thinks you are missing the point. The idea behind these events is primarily social and to enable the kids to have some touch with Indian culture and mores. Nobody really cares about "delving deep". That part is up to the individual performer and would happen when they practice at home.

suma · Post by **suma** » 27 May 2010, 00:01

reethigowla48 wrote:http://chicagotyagarajautsavam.org/Word ... age_id=163

Participation Guidelines

listen and learn from the Kritis being rendered per the CTU standard.

In Sri Ragam Pancharatnam, Rama Bhak Tu Dai na thya ga......
I have heard everyone hold it at thya..ga.... then either go back to rama bhak tu or seetha rama bhak tu dai na....

CTU standard is rama bhak tu dai............na, again rama bhak tu dai na.

In Aarabhi Pancharatnam, I have heard everyone sing this song at a medium pace with a lot of bhavam and uniform speed throughout the song.

CTU standard - song in 1 speed, then before going to charanam mridangam bumps up the speed to 1.5 and then charanam is sung faster. they sing this song in full speed and enjoy it at that speed.

Because these songs are an inheritance to us from the great saints and yester year musicians, I personally dont like people changing the style and imposing that as a rule to participate.
May be there is nothing wrong in making these changes, but I personally feel one should follow the people singing in Thiruvaiyaru and not change the divine pancharatna kritis.

kmrasika · Post by **kmrasika** » 27 May 2010, 11:27

It would be nice to enforce the cell phone rules in Chennai sabhas as it get very irritating when they ring during a performance.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 03 Jun 2010, 09:43

suma wrote:[
In Sri Ragam Pancharatnam, Rama Bhak Tu Dai na thya ga......
I have heard everyone hold it at thya..ga.... then either go back to rama bhak tu or seetha rama bhak tu dai na....

CTU standard is rama bhak tu dai............na, again rama bhak tu dai na.

In Aarabhi Pancharatnam, I have heard everyone sing this song at a medium pace with a lot of bhavam and uniform speed throughout the song.

CTU standard - song in 1 speed, then before going to charanam mridangam bumps up the speed to 1.5 and then charanam is sung faster. they sing this song in full speed and enjoy it at that speed.

Because these songs are an inheritance to us from the great saints and yester year musicians, I personally dont like people changing the style and imposing that as a rule to participate.
May be there is nothing wrong in making these changes, but I personally feel one should follow the people singing in Thiruvaiyaru and not change the divine pancharatna kritis.

I agree with you. Interestingly it was during the practice session that I had attended, that they made this amendment to Entharo Mahanubhavulu. It's indeed fun to come across such rules !

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 07 Jun 2010, 11:03

It is not at all surprising for organisers in the US putting up a list like this. It is the western culture rubbing off on CM. To understand it well, we should compare a western wedding with an indian wedding. There you are supposed to confirm your participation and after the orderly wedding ceremony is completed , during the dinner everyone is given a specified particular seat predecided by the hosts and so on. Indian weddings, is chaotic. No one knows as to how many will turn up. But the indian wedding is nonetheless much more colourful, spontaneous, joyous and chaotic (in a positive way!).

When we organise Thygaraja aradhana in the sabha I am associated with, there is a section which strongly proposes to bring a group of trained Pancharatna singers to perform and our own members will listen- a sort of perfect rendering. I was opposed to the idea. The aaradhana is a tribute to the saint composer by every CM student/ rasika. Everyone should participate to his/her best ability. Perfection is not a consideration here -only devotion. For perfection, of course, we should conduct high quality kacheris. There is no question about it.

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 07 Jun 2010, 18:40

suma wrote: In Sri Ragam Pancharatnam, Rama Bhak Tu Dai na thya ga......
I have heard everyone hold it at thya..ga.... then either go back to rama bhak tu or seetha rama bhak tu dai na....

CTU standard is rama bhak tu dai............na, again rama bhak tu dai na.

I've heard it broken at thyaga.. too, but if you think about it, this breaking up of the name "Thyagaraja" into thyaga and raaja is unseemly. I went and listened to some of the versions I have, and noted that Balamurali and MSS didn't do this - they kept Thyagaraja in one piece. FWIW!

- Sreenadh

suma · Post by **suma** » 08 Jun 2010, 02:13

ShrutiLaya wrote:[CTU standard is rama bhak tu dai............na, again rama bhak tu dai na.

I went and listened to some of the versions I have, and noted that Balamurali and MSS didn't do this - they kept Thyagaraja in one piece. FWIW!

- Sreenadh

What does FWIW mean?

I was pointing out about holding it in "Dai ...na", which sounds odd and not common.

Breaking it at Thyaga is a version that is commonly heard off

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 08 Jun 2010, 03:30

FWIW = For What It's Worth

- Sreenadh

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 08 Jun 2010, 04:22

ShrutiLaya - I like that abreviation

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 09 Jun 2010, 11:38

kssr
You have opined that 'Perfection is not a consideration here -only devotion'. It is not correct. Devotion in this context is musician's offering homage to the Vaggeyakara. Offering, without perfection-sadhana and performance, is low on devotion quotient. Without clear perception and understanding of the vaggeyakara hridayam, the offering is definitely of poor quality.
Without exceptions, the performer(s) must perfect the composition and participate. I will be happy if you insist and demand on the participants, at least in your sabha.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 09 Jun 2010, 20:18

munirao2001 wrote:kssr
You have opined that 'Perfection is not a consideration here -only devotion'. It is not correct. Devotion in this context is musician's offering homage to the Vaggeyakara. Offering, without perfection-sadhana and performance, is low on devotion quotient. Without clear perception and understanding of the vaggeyakara hridayam, the offering is definitely of poor quality.
Without exceptions, the performer(s) must perfect the composition and participate. I will be happy if you insist and demand on the participants, at least in your sabha.

I wish sabhari knew that!

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 09 Jun 2010, 20:41

munirao2001 wrote:kssr
You have opined that 'Perfection is not a consideration here -only devotion'. It is not correct. Devotion in this context is musician's offering homage to the Vaggeyakara. Offering, without perfection-sadhana and performance, is low on devotion quotient. Without clear perception and understanding of the vaggeyakara hridayam, the offering is definitely of poor quality.
Without exceptions, the performer(s) must perfect the composition and participate. I will be happy if you insist and demand on the participants, at least in your sabha.

What I have written is only for Thyagaraja (and other saints') aaradhana function and not for any other "performance". In the case of aradhana, it should be treated as a tribute where we salute, pay respect to the saints with whatever best of music that we know and in this all of us should join and perfection should not be insisted upon. No devotee/ music student will deliberately sing incorrectly. We do not have the authority to forbid someone to pray if his recitation of a sloka is not 100% perfect. No one has the right to prevent a citizen to sing the national anthem if he is not 100% perfect. So also everyone has a right to pay a tribute to the saints to the best of their ability. Organisers of the aaradhana should understand and allow everyone to participate as long as sincerety of intention is there. This is my personal feeling. I am fully aware of the other policed aaradhana.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 11 Jun 2010, 13:20

munirao2001,

"Perfection" is a very relative term and even amongst great Carnatic musicians different individuals attain different levels of "perfection" in various aspects such as shruti, kAlapramANam, sAhitya pronunciation, etc, etc...

Take shruti shuddham...several Carnatic vocalists as well as certain instrumentalists have perpetual problems with shruti. So much so that their "standard" in this would be unacceptable at a professional or even amateur level in Hindustani music. Yet these individuals produce outstanding Carnatic music that many of us enjoy.

Some of my favorite musicians are Madurai Mani Iyer, Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer and Ramnad Krishnan...yet, I will be the first to acknowledge that each of them had deficiencies in some area or other. Bottom line, who cares as long as I like it

!

So what do mean by "perfection" ? And why should only the "perfect" be allowed to perform in Tyagaraja aradhana ?

shanks · Post by **shanks** » 11 Jun 2010, 17:41

Aradhana >> homage or respects to the composer is the basic premise for the event itself.

Given that, allowing only the chosen ones |( or those who have to to practice are allowed to perform is in contradiction with the aradhana concept.

Also as Uday says, one man's perfection is just passable in another's perspective.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 11 Jun 2010, 19:43

I don't believe 'perfection' is the requirement.
At the same time, a minimum standard should be maintained surely?
Or are you saying anyone can walk in from the street and start singing on stage?
(and hey, they can claim they are paying homage to the saint!)

And surely basic norms such as dress code, no mobile phones on stage, etc. are not that drastic?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 11 Jun 2010, 21:19

shanks wrote:Aradhana >> homage or respects to the composer is the basic premise for the event itself.

Given that, allowing only the chosen ones |( or those who have to to practice are allowed to perform is in contradiction with the aradhana concept.

Also as Uday says, one man's perfection is just passable in another's perspective.

Practice brings improvement - why would we stop that in the literal meaning of aradhana?

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 12 Jun 2010, 10:31

CTU Music Competition 2010
http://chicagotyagarajautsavam.org/WordPress/?p=2408

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 12 Jun 2010, 10:47

I went to the CTU website to post the link in the previous post when I was attracted into these pictures of the savvy JV on the side. The headers sound absolutely hilarious (to be constructive!).

J.Vaidhyanathan hammers on the mridangam-Vijay Siva Concert - Day 2 - Utsavam 2010
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chicagotya ... 675435330/

J Vaidyanathan rips on it..Vijay Siva Concert - Day 2 - Utsavam 2010
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chicagotya ... 674813189/

Thank god JV was not using a 'screw' mridangam. Got saved of another hilarious header!!

Though the headers are not part of any formal review of the concert, they reminded me of V Sriram talking here about the critic's rhetoric (like 'the mridangist playing gleefully ' ! (at 3:29 in the video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuBzFhMTa3Q

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 13 Jun 2010, 12:14

uday shankar
1) Quest for excellence demands perfection. Permissiveness gives scope and room for various levels of perfection. Performer has to constantly aim for the attainment of perfection and all the great maestros keep this as their mission and strive for it. The degree of their attainment becomes the differentiating factor.
2) On the unacceptability of Hindusthani exponent the quality of purity of shruthi in KM exponents-KM with primacy for gamakams, demands purity of anuswara and it is very tough. HM or KM with predominantly plain notes/swarams is easier on achieving the purity of notes/swarams. Listen to HM exponents in their handling of fast paced/dhrut compositions-sargam, in particular. Surprisingly we realize that KM exponents are more perfect than HM exponents!
3) I had the privilege of attending Thyagaraja Aradhana at Thiruvyyaru, when Great Maestros Ariyakudi, Musiri, Viswanatha Iyer, Chembai and other Maestros participated and paid their homage to the composer. I was also witness to the seriousness, sincerity in the sadhakam and excellence in their renditions of panchratna keertanas. In recognition of their higher attainment in mastering the particular pancharatna keertana, Great Maestro was given the privilege of taking the lead-e.g.'Endaro Mahanubhavulu' by Ariyakudi and 'Kanakanaruchira' by Viswanatha Iyer.
4) In the context of Aradhana of the Composer, participants must pay their homage, truly reflected in their attainment of perfection. With notations available and with benefit of karna parampara and Guru's effective guidance, is it is tall order? I say emphatically NO. Perfection in this context is related to the karna parampara and notations. This perfection is the eligibility criteria for participation as performer, paying homage.

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 13 Jun 2010, 16:54

munirao2001 wrote: 3) I had the privilege of attending Thyagaraja Aradhana at Thiruvyyaru, when Great Maestros Ariyakudi, Musiri, Viswanatha Iyer, Chembai and other Maestros participated and paid their homage to the composer. I was also witness to the seriousness, sincerity in the sadhakam and excellence in their renditions of panchratna keertanas. In recognition of their higher attainment in mastering the particular pancharatna keertana, Great Maestro was given the privilege of taking the lead-e.g.'Endaro Mahanubhavulu' by Ariyakudi and 'Kanakanaruchira' by Viswanatha Iyer.

That is indicative of dilution of the Art form in general, lack of language skills/expression, lack of intensity in singing, half baked knowledge, rushing to perform on stage .......

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Jun 2010, 22:09

Debatable though the tone of the instructions were, I see the children on stage just bloom--in their outfits and their smiles. The way they interact with the vidvAns in other pictures--none of them a rock star--indicates their interest in CM and the manner in which they are developing a love for it.They surely spend hours on practising the music of the land of their parents and ancestors.
Let's forget for a moment a few pushy parents and the stern way in which the instructions were worded, though well meaning, I'm sure..
Once again kids, clap:

rajesh_rs · Post by **rajesh_rs** » 14 Jun 2010, 05:05

If one can have tuxedo dinners in the west then why not specify code of conduct and dress for an occasion such as this?

Would you tolerate or care much for someone who enters a temple or church in bikinis or underwear? Would you care much if your neighbours in a movie theatre spoke loudly on the phone for the length of the movie?

There's nothing wrong in imposing restrictions. Informality should not mean indecency.

reethigowla48 wrote:http://chicagotyagarajautsavam.org/WordPress/?p=2389
Participant Payment Guidelines for Utsavam 2010

Participants performing in all CTU events including the ones listed below must pay the rates applicable for the day on which the event is held:

* Vishnu Sahasranama Stotram
* Pancharatna Kritis
* Chetulara
* Utsava Sampradaya Kritis
* Gitarthamu
* Homage to Tyagaraja Sessions including
o Teacher Sessions
o Individual Performances
o Group Performances
o Accompanied Performances

This means the following:

* If a child is performing in the Utsava Sampradaya Kritis (for example), the corresponding family should have made the applicable payment (single/couple etc.) for Monday. This payment is due irrespective of whether the given family had already paid for Saturday.
* Registrants scheduled to perform on Saturday should have made the applicable payment for Saturday.
* If unforeseen delays cause a registrantâ€™s Homage To Tyagaraja performance originally scheduled on Saturday to be moved to Sunday, CTU will honor the payment made on Saturday by the registrantâ€™s to render the same performance on Sunday instead.
* Registrants scheduled to perform on Sunday (e.g. Accompanied Performances) should have made the applicable payment (single/couple etc.) for Sunday.
* Payments made by the registrantâ€™s family for Saturday does not apply towards concerts on Sunday.
* Attendance at all concerts and dance events require the applicable payment for the day of the respective performance.

Utsavam 2010 Tickets

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Jun 2010, 16:10

The veena girls I used to play for in London always used to groan when told by the teacher that the dress code for a particular concert was half-sari. Well, outside the class room, these were western teenagers as much as girls of Tamil origin working hard to maintain their culture, and some of them were closer to 19 than to 13 (or even 20-plus).

Why they groaned, I could never understand --- these were not the school-uniform simple half-saris that one all-too-occasionally still sees on the streets of Chennai, but very grand, beautiful and expensive affairs.

Us percussionists just took it for granted that we must play in Kurta and vesti/pyjama --- and got into the habit of not allowing the girls to be the only ones on stage wearing silks and splendid colours!

Apart from this, I have been rebelling against dress code for most of my life, whenever I could get away with it. I was an IT manager in jeans and scruffy pullover --- at least when I worked for a publisher; at the Japanese insurers I had to wear a suit.

These days there is only one dress code that I won't have anything to do with: I will not give my custom to any Chennai restaurant etc that will not allow my customary and comfortable chapels and vesti. I'm not changing for them!

tambram · Post by **tambram** » 17 Jun 2010, 07:36

The basic premise of this thread, which is annoyance over the rules set for an event is indicative of modern Indians. Indians in India get annoyed by the lack of rules, but accept it as a way of life. Indians elsewhere in the globe follow rules set by non-Indians but raise a hue and cry when set by other fellow Indians! Pathetic or what? We can follow road rules in America and put up with all sorts of restrictions in Singapore and the Middle East, but we will never learn to apply even the most basic discipline on our own.

I have lived in the US for 30+ years now, served on the committees of music and non-music organizations in a few big and small cities. My uniform observation has been that it is easier to convince funding agencies about the work we do than to convince our own community!

I haven't lived in the Chicago area and have no friends there who are interested in Carnatic music, but as someone who has tried putting together the annual Tyagaraja aradhanas in a few cities, I find the rules not just fair, but also absolutely necessary. One has to be an organizer to see the disgusting behavior of parents, who push their children just to keep up appearances, not necessarily to garner genuine accomplishments. I have tried arranging Pancharatnam practice sessions and there is usually a severe lack of discipline. If people think there is no discipline involved in Yoga and Advaita, God help them. This lack of discipline is the bane of India and Indians everywhere. So long as we hold on to this false cultural value as if it were central to the Indian spirit, we will never be able to hold our heads high in the world.

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 17 Jun 2010, 12:10

No one here is promoting indiscipline. Enforcing unwarranted rules like what one should wear to come and sing pancharatna kritis and also to force the participants to come for several rounds of rehearsals in order to meet with the "approval" of the organisers, is just out right against the spirit of the aaradhana which is to offer our respects to the great composers, to the best of our ability.

In Indian aaradhanaas without any such regimentation and rules, people are absolutely disciplined. No one 'from the street' (as someone mentioned earlier) has ever just jumped on the stage to perform. No parent has pushed his unqualified child to participate. Participants really behave their best and give their best. The CM community is not a hooligan community where one would start dancing and shouting on the stage. We are a sophisticated, cultured community. However large the audience may be, I have never heard even on one occasion, in numerous concerts I have attended, where people shout or misbehave in spite of bad situations- rain on an uncovered playground concert, power going off plunging the entire place in darkness and so on.

My humble view is that, the organisers ( I can also claim experience in it) should respect the rasikas and participants and not give a list of 108 rules and administer it with a cane like an erstwhile schoolmaster (unless you feel that it is absolutely necessary in the US scenario).

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Jun 2010, 21:24

kssr,
True, we do not know the community as you locals do.
Were there occasions earlier when a few of the children did not come
dressed as they did this time (as we see them in the photographs?). The reason I'm asking this is because even in the best of CM-loving families where the children too show interest and commitment to the music of the country of their ancestry, not all teenagers are conscious that their attire needs to be appropriate for any particular occasion. With all the interest they have for the music (bless them for that), they still are creatures of their surroundings and they are teens. They are aware that their indian counterparts are clad in torn jeans too, but it may not occur to them that they will dress to suit the occasion--say, for a wedding or to go to a temple. With the children here, it may be true too, but not with all. That they are all very smart does not apply here--they are at that stage of life when they are emerging adults!
Again, as an outsider, I could see the authoritative tone in the pages (!) of instructions, but I repeat, the children looked lovely on the stage and seemed very happy, singing and mingling! On a lighter note, a few of them are so used to ambitious parents who are stricter and more rigid in their rules at home, I suppose

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Jun 2010, 21:45

arasi wrote:... On a lighter note, a few of them are so used to ambitious parents who are stricter and more rigid in their rules at home, I suppose

That is an admirable way of creating rebels in later years! From my clinical experience I can vouch that parental animosity is the consequence of authoritarianism during their younger years! Unfortunately the parents are not aware of the damgee they cause to the psyche of the young minds. Of course they pay the price in their later years

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 18 Jun 2010, 16:49

Strange comments indeed...
You can more easily create 'rebels' by forcing children to go to CM classes, than asking them to wear appropriate attire when going on stage.
If the fear is of creating rebels, perhaps parents in NA should get their children to overdose on pizza, coke and rock music. That should take care of things.
Sheesh! Do shrinks come shrink-wrapped?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Jun 2010, 20:30

R-T
Perhaps you don't understand. There is so much of truth in the dictum
"when you are in Rome behave like the Romans".
Children growing up in NA will natuarlly adopt the North American ways to avoid mental tension. They will be accepted and assimilated easily if they adhere to local mores. The first generations many of whom are 'gold diggers' try to force their cultural aspirations onto their offsprings who undergo tremendous pressure and mental conflicts. If their goal is to bring them up according to the home country then at the outset they should not have migrated. They want the best of both worlds; nothing wrong with that. But then the stress is on the young minds. I know scores of cases where the children have 'rebelled' in later years while the parents miserably rue the time, efforts and money they had spent on their kids. IMHO the Cleveland experiment is commendable from the point of the First Generations but is bound to fail in respect of the later generations. It is akin to my trying to cultiivate cocoanut palms and sugar canes at our frigid Candian Enviromnent. My views are entirely supported by an internationally renowned Trans-cultural Psychiatrist who is relatedd to me with a vast clinical experience.

By the by 'Shrinks' are Realists and Scientists who base their conclusions on Real Life Experiences. They do administer 'bitter pills' but with good intentions

Also the malaise you cited are now spreading like an epidemic in SI

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 18 Jun 2010, 20:40

50% of what a child gets is from the role modeling of parents and rest of it comes from the company and the culture they live in. Many immigrants came to US or Canada with the ultimate aim of returning back to home country within 5 years after making enough money to build a home or some thing like that; but five years never ends even after 30+ years and then it is too late to return back to which home? Immigrants who push their children are in for a big disappointment if parents refuse to accept the reality i.e. children cannot be expected to follow you or your culture once you decide to immigrate to another country.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Jun 2010, 21:24

If it is 5 yrs then why this craze for the Green Card. Many wait to get their citizenship and then go back (with their OCI) but leaving their issues to fend for themselves in NA. CM certainly is not one of the Survival skills needed in NA! That is reality..

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 18 Jun 2010, 21:53

cml - I am in agreement with you on the overall point of not forcing the old culture (or anything else, for that matter) on your kids. This applies equally to South Indians who have migrated to Delhi/Calcutta/Bombay etc as to those who emigrated to NA/Australia/UK etc. E.g. I have come across south indian kids growing up in Delhi being ashamed to speak in Tamil infront of their peers.
(At the same time, parents should also provide enough opportunity to their children to understand their identity. These same kids may accuse their parents of creating an 'identity crisis' for them later in life, if they didn't expose them to their roots!)

The point I am making is something slightly different though: once the children have enrolled in CM classes (hopefully not out of being forced to do this!), they should be encouraged to respect the norms of CM if they do decide to go on stage to participate in an event. That is, they should be dressed in proper attire, not carry mobile phone on stage etc. This is what the original post in this thread was commenting on.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Jun 2010, 22:16

..agree with you on the protocol (reasonable and traditional) that should be followed... Just like not wearing chappals inside the temple etc.,

sridhar_ranga · Post by **sridhar_ranga** » 19 Jun 2010, 11:51

"When in Rome" ... but increasingly "here" is becoming Rome!! (may be off topic a bit & apologies)

Right here in Chennai it is hardest to convince an overwhelming majority of Tamil kids to speak in Tamil at home or with friends and relatives. At best they may add a condescending "DA" at the end of a sentence when speaking to friends. Any forced attempts by parents to "inculcate" our "culture" in them thru music or dance classes can meet with equally disastrous long term psychological effects even in India/ TN/ Chennai. The middle and upper middle class kids here want to "fit in" with their "cool" peers - characteristics of cool include speaking nothing but English, playing with their numerous gizmos, chatting with their facebook friends (from 1st standard kids onwards they have an account now!), watching mostly English language TV channels (including cartoon channels for the very young) and movies, and if at all they read, reading comics and books all in English no way reflective of our "culture". I am talking about the 5-15 year olds here.

At the workplace, ask any Chennai bred 20 something Tamil guy (even a few 30 somethings) if he has read/ heard of Kalki, Jayakanthan, even Sujaatha (Rangarajan), the answer is No. Some might have heard of them but 99% have never read anything in Tamil. I'm even aware of a few 40 somethings in the family who have lived in Chennai throughout their lives who can't read or write their mother tongue as they took Hindi or French in school and never learnt Tamil, or gave up when they tried later in life only to find it "too difficult".

And these are the types Tamils all over the state want to emulate.

Mellattamizh ini saagum.

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 19 Jun 2010, 13:07

At the time when the world Tamil conference is on at Coimbatore, it is unfortunate that someone feels that Tamil saagum. No. I totally disagree. Tamil has lived thro' numerous conquests- english, french, muslim, saurashtra, etc., and numerous religious turmoils buddhist, jain, christian and so on. It will live on and on. I am told that while evaluating the language to be given "classical" status, it was found and accepted by experts that there are at least 41 works of literature in tamil that dates back to more than 1500 years! It will live for ever.

Coming back to the thread, we should identify what represents our culture and to what extent we can allow dilution. We should understand that everything invariably undergoes changes with time. It is also not desirable to be totally static. It is an anti growth formula.

In my opinion we should not lose our language, in this case Tamil, totally. We should retain our literature, art forms like music and dance without too much dilution. In the case of dress as we are spread all over the world, there are bound to be changes, due to local influence. Why insist on veshti and paavaadai dhaavani in NA? Pacharathra kritis properly sung by men and women in jeans will be as sweet as ever. I get thrilled listening to kritis sung by kids born and brought up in the US, with a slight american accent. It is not to be condemned. It is to be encouraged. An absolutely new and delightful flavour to our already rich CM platform.

Also, in order to make our culture blossom, we should develop adapt to modern times. There should be Tweet, facebook and all new toys and tools in tamil. First of all, if indian languages are to flourish, we must develop easy methods of writing the texts in the computer, perform everything on internet,SMS using our languages. Otherwise it will definitely struggle in future. As we see most of us find it difficult to put in a tamil or sanskrit word on this site iself. By writing in this forum, how can we expect to sustain, leave alone develop, our local flavour? We will only be polishing further our english skills.

I am sure that if we give the tools that they need, the youngsters will certainly be instrumental in the growth of our language and culture. It is not proper to project as if we oldies are the torch bearers of our culture and the youngsters are trying to break it down.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Jun 2010, 17:28

We have not banned scripts in SI languages (including sanskrit) as long as they are short and accompanied by english transliterations (and possibly an english translation). Just keep in mind that this is primarily a Forum devoted to the propagation of CM. Strictly non-CM posts which may be of general interest should be posted at the member's lounge.

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 20 Jun 2010, 11:38

cmlover wrote:We have not banned scripts in SI languages (including sanskrit) as long as they are short and accompanied by english transliterations (and possibly an english translation).

If this is a message in reply to my long message 48 on this thread, I never meant that that Tamil is "banned" here. The point I was trying to make was that, it is generally difficult to put in Tamil or other indian language texts in this forum. The internet is not yet tuned for it. It may also be due to our inadequacy in knowledge as to how to do it.