Sound system settings before the concert

Babu · Post by **Babu** » 29 Jun 2010, 20:17

This is a familiar subject and is more complex these days with modern equipment and technically knowledgeable musicians. I have heard Sri.Lalgudi Jayarman requesting the sound engineer to increase the treble in one concert. While doing the initial settings in an empty hall is a necessary step, the hall dynamics change when the rasikas get in. It requires an astute sound engineer/technician to do the fine tuning within the first few seconds (minute) of the concert. Pre-concert check list should check all equipment, mike cables, monitors, etc.,

I like the old days when we could get away with three mikes or four when we have gatam and no monitors. I have been to many and I have managed the console a few times. Every hall is different.

My few cents

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 29 Jun 2010, 20:33

Many a time I have witnessed rasikas requesting the sound engineer to reduce the volume, and the artistes in turn insisting that the volume should be increased further. Poor rasikas! I know one rasika who always carries cotton balls to music programmes!

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 29 Jun 2010, 20:58

I know this is an outcome of the B Jayashree thread. The right place is in General Discussion, not concert review.

The way the sound adj is done- the hall(if any) , its acoustics, equipment used, persons handling the equipment, etc., for CM is primitive, to say the least. Talking of "sound engineers" - I haven't seen any in any indian concert. A few initial piercing screeches is an important and inevitable part of any concert. It is almost comparable with a varnam and people miss it when it does not occur

Besides the hall, acoustics and how full the hall is (human bodies are sound absorbing), the person operating the equipment should have some musical sense. This subjective decision as to how to achieve a good balance is the most important factor. On many occasions, the mridangam is intolerable totally gobbling up the main artist. I still remember the day when Sri.Ramani's flute's subtle nuances could hardly be heard because of bad balancing of the sound. That day it was MSG on violin and it practically finished off the flute. It was also in one of the good halls in Bangalore.

Also, there is a great subjective element. We have been conducting concerts in one venue and after a few years we had to change the venue. Some rasikas said that the new venue's acoustics is brilliant compared to the earlier one and some just the opposite

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Jun 2010, 21:14

Oh, how many times have we been here...

Even recently, I read of Sri BMK... "he signaled the sound engineers to turn up the volume and began". Even after, what, sixty-plus years as a stage professional, he does not realise that the volume settings, apart from his monitor, should have nothing to do with him!

This is not about BMK: he is probably my favourite genius, but it is about the musicians who interfere where they should not, and, unfortunately, is is often the elders who are the worst offenders.

Babu, I wrote in a recent post about the need to control bass, mid and treble volumes, and how neglecting them leads, usually, to a booming sound, or otherwise to a thin sound with no feeling of foundation. They are also essential in controlling screaming feedback, because the resonance of the room contributes to this. You are right in what you say, but we also see engineers more-or-less taking a nap after the initial settings have been made --- not only do the musicians warm up, but the room fills up. Vocalists also move and even an inch or two can make a big difference.

I know this is an outcome of the B Jayashree thread....

Crossposted. You guys obviously have a specific concert in mind that was ruined by the sound man?

Bone of contention with me! I must have posted about bad sound so many, many times.

However... with a few exceptions, I find that things are improving, and the concerts that are ruined by the sound men are fewer.

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 29 Jun 2010, 23:59

Nick H wrote:You are right in what you say, but we also see engineers more-or-less taking a nap after the initial settings have been made --- not only do the musicians warm up, but the room fills up.

And hence the importance of a short first piece aka varnam

. Except in an emergency (feedback etc.,) I hate to change any audio settings in the middle of a song; You do the best you can before the concert begins (depending on how cooperative the musicians are. Some will agree to / insist on a full sound check with all instruments playing, to get the relative levels right; others will only test the mikes one at a time) or as soon as it begins; and then try to correct after the first song, once everyone - musicians, instruments, audience - has settled in. And then resist pressure to turn this or that volume up or down!

- Sreenadh

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 30 Jun 2010, 03:00

60+years of carnatic concert experience has taught me to keep handy a pair of sponge ear plugs that have come in handy in more than 60 % of the concerts in India as well as here in the US . I have even walked out of concerts where I could hear only the mridangam !!

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 30 Jun 2010, 05:02

Sundara Rajan wrote:60+years of carnatic concert experience has taught me to keep handy a pair of sponge ear plugs that have come in handy in more than 60 % of the concerts in India as well as here in the US . I have even walked out of concerts where I could hear only the mridangam !!

I have been on stages where it was no different. You can either hear the mridangam or your own voice but not both.

For reasons that are never always clear, auditoria stages have amazingly bad acoustics when you least expect it. Once I even gave a longish vocal performance never hearing a note of what I was singing. I could barely hear the tambura. It was the eeriest sensation when I saw members of the audience shaking their heads in appreciation at random moments and made me wonder just what the audience was hearing. Fortunately no one had to buy a concert ticket to listen.

I have been on the stage in a group performance where one end of the long group seated on stage could not hear any singing from the other end. A loud mridangam or well amplified melodic instrument (violin or flute) would come to the rescue in such cases and you just hope that everything turns out synchronized. But that is when the group leader wisely chooses to put the instruments well-separated on the stage. Otherwise it is mayhem, that the audience sometimes is quite innocent of.

Occasionally I have been on stages where the acoustics were so good that I could close my eyes and imagine that I was singing in my own house but not too many times.

There have been some funny moments related on this forum pertaining to concerts in general but there should rightly be a separate thread on hilarity on stage -- on how artists make do under the most trying circumstances.

-Then Paanan

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 30 Jun 2010, 05:29

who reacts more - artist/pakkavadyam or rasikas or organizers - about accoustics in a concert?

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 30 Jun 2010, 11:50

Sundara Rajan wrote: I have even walked out of concerts where I could hear only the mridangam !!

Dear Sir, Absolutely right. It is rather painful for me to say, that in 7 out of 10 concerts, it is the accompanists ( the culprits in most cases being the senior mrudangam artists) who are responsible for the sound bash. The most irritating aspect here is some of the students army who accompany senior mrudangam artists repeatedly go to the poor sound man and ask for the increase in volume for their guru alone, both with and without their guru's knowledge.

And also it is just not the artists' job to meddle with the sound systems. Am thinking about an hypothetical situation where a sound man comes to the mrudangam artiste and complain that he should play with more with both his hands balanced rather than playing with a single hand.. Now, how will that be for an artiste?

One senior mrudangam artiste once refused monitor totally to be given to the stage and then kept on demanding volume resulting in me being one of the "Cotton in the ears" guy..

Unless the artists themselves realize this, it is tough to find a solution.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 30 Jun 2010, 12:46

I know one rasika who always carries cotton balls to music programmes!

They also help in sheltering them from the AC. In some places it's really strong and my ears hurt!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Jun 2010, 14:38

I have no knowledge about the acoustics of buildings --- but since when did a small impediment like that stop me from talking?

Anyway... I have a theory --- that the "proscenium arch stage" setup is really not very good for our music. It seems to divide the hall into two acoustic zones, and, for some reason, the stage area itself becomes a sort of black hole, where the sound just seems to get absorbed and vanish. The next part of my theory is that this is made worse by seating the artists well back from the front of the stage. This I have never been able to understand: surely, visually and acoustically, the closer the artists are to the audience the better? The whole curtain thing is there for the setting and changing of scenes, and for dramatic effect, in plays, etc; it is completely irrelevant to a music performance. Let us have the artists right at the front of the stage.

It is only a theory, and repudiation is welcome. For a start, it is not meant to be all-encompassing, because a non-stage venue does not mean that the sound will be right; it often isn't.

ganeshkant · Post by **ganeshkant** » 30 Jun 2010, 16:51

Sundara Rajan wrote:60+years of carnatic concert experience has taught me to keep handy a pair of sponge ear plugs that have come in handy in more than 60 % of the concerts in India as well as here in the US . I have even walked out of concerts where I could hear only the mridangam !!

I too in Dec'09 at a sabha in the southern suburb of Chennai.I did that after no action was taken by the organizers inspite of my pointing out the issues.

eesha · Post by **eesha** » 30 Jun 2010, 21:46

Sundara Rajan wrote: I have even walked out of concerts where I could hear only the mridangam !!

True, if the mrudangam volume level is not subdued , it can spoil the concert. As already pointed out in another thread on Udayalur programmes about the usual mrudangist who is never satisfied with the volume level ...

That is why, when we arrange concerts on behalf of sangeethapriya / Gaanapriya / "mottai maadi" direct vision, we ensure that the mrudangam volume level is kept "just adequate"

- SS

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 30 Jun 2010, 22:42

We should let our rasika pakkavadyam artists speak

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Jun 2010, 22:50

We should not be sidetracked (no pun intended) by mridangam bashing when the real issue is sound engineering and concert organisation.

Besides which, one of them already did!

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 01 Jul 2010, 00:50

eesha wrote: True, if the mrudangam volume level is not subdued , it can spoil the concert.
- SS

Here are some random thoughts on the problem of sound engineering and mrdangam. By no means am I claiming expert knowledge here, just amateur observations.

The problem of unsatisfactory mrdangam volume may be a result of a number of things put together.

First, the mrdangam is not an easy instrument to mic. It has a broad frequency range and a broad tonal center in comparison to a tabla (listen to a mridangam "dhin" and try to guess what sruti that is tuned for -- it is not as easy as doing the same for a melodic instrument or a tabla). As a result you have to amplify for some mrdangam strokes to be heard satisfactorily (e.g. the soft right hand strokes) but that causes the left hand strokes to boom and in many cases even drowns out the right hand (this is especially so in the case of low srutis). In the case of the tabla the two sides are discrete pieces and thus you can achieve some mic separation. Plus the tabla seems to have a narrow tonal center so a comparatively lower volume is sufficient for satisfaction.

The second problem is that traditional accompaniment technique of mridangam causes a wide fluctuation in the volume. If you look at the course of say one Avartanam or even the whole pallavi of a kriti, typically the mrdangam is subdued in the beginning until we reach the end of the Avatanam or pallavi and we expect a theermanam where the mridangam volume goes up perhaps drowning out the last minute melodic flourishes of the singer at the end. Similarly when the tempo of the kriti increases the accompaniment volume increases naturally. Thus the mrdangam volume is constantly oscillating whereas in contrast the tabla "theka" is uniform volume for most of the HM concert until the point late in the concert when the tabla player lets loose. How is the sound engineer to anticipate the volume of accompaniment when the singer reaches 'hamsadhvani bhUshita hErambham' based on the first sedate line 'vAtapi gaNapatim'?

I wonder if there is an inherent contradiction in the CM system -- we self-professed "experts" obsess infinitely about minute nuances in our gamakams and intonation and note positions etc whereas the average concert goer can hardly hear these nuances in the "din" of accompaniment.

Hoping for some (principled) disagreement!

-Then Paanan

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Jul 2010, 01:08

I think I disagree!

The mridangam is usually miced by two separate mics. If not, the left hand is usually unmiced, and we either hear it, or we don't. I don't think it is very hard to balance left and right. Most of the mics used are fairly directional and only pick up sounds fairly close to them (note the effect when the vocalist leans back six inches: his voice drops away entirely). Although the tabla is two separate units, the heads are physically much closer together. It is much more easily served by just one mic, and if two are used, I suspect it is much harder to prevent each mic picking up the other drum as well.

Covering the dynamic range from loud to soft might be a problem, although if it is, then the equipment should probably be thrown away. Dynamic range is part and parcel of music, although this might be less so in CM.

Consider how much greater are the challenges presented by the range of sounds from Western percussionists, especially, among light music, by the great multi-instrumental showmen like Sivamani. If they can do it for him, they can do it for one guy with a mridangam!

I think that the greater challenges are presented by the much quieter instruments; ghatam and morsing.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 01 Jul 2010, 08:05

Nick H,

Yes indeed the curtains are really not required for CM. It's just stupid, because there are no "surprises" behind the curtain, like some crazy throne or elaborate feather fans. And it's very boring to stare at the curtain, and could even discourage people from going to concerts in time! Even when I know someone in the audience I can chat with before until the concert begins, I feel less bored without the curtains than with. And jibbas and sarees do make a good topic for thinking and talking about until the bhairavi and the darbar intervene.

Radhika-Rajnarayan · Post by **Radhika-Rajnarayan** » 01 Jul 2010, 09:36

This article by Raj Narayan, published several years ago in Sruti magazine may be of interest to rasikas:http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=acc0 ... e6e4055ae3

It addresses not only concerns about microphone and amplification levels for the mridangam, but many other issues, which are relevant even today.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Jul 2010, 10:57

I am not going to have time, over the next week, to read your article: please do not take my silence as lack of interest.

Others will respond!

raghavt · Post by **raghavt** » 01 Jul 2010, 16:54

Hi All,

An intresting thread indeed... :tmi: As several fellow members have noted, I've come across many senior Mridanga Vidwans insisting on high volume, these include my favorites too

Having said that, let me disagree with some of the 'Mridangam Bashing' in the posts

Not to offend anyone, even now, 70-75% audience do not have the capability to appreciate laya. They will somehow put the Tala, that too if they sit in front row....

You know what's gonna happen. They appreciate the raga, song, nereval, swarams everthing... and take a break when the Thani begins

So, I am forced to view those Mridangam Bashing comments through this angle.

A concert is a team work. The sound settings for each artist should be balanced. We all would have noticed when the Mridangam and Upapakkavadyam plays together, for eg to end a Thani, we are unable to understand what is being played. So, let us not target any instrument. Mridangam is an assertive instrument. If it is played, it is sweet. If it is banged, it will BANG. Afterall it is a drum

The organizers need to invent a new method to strike a balance. Balance for what? Sound Settings? NO

A new method to 'handle' artists who want max volume. They need to ensure that the artists are not offended @ the same time the sound settings are perfect. Easier written here than done... I know that. But that's what I feel. Thanks

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Jul 2010, 18:26

Do artists want max volume. A few may have become hard of hearing, which I can sympathise with, but most just want to hear themselves and their accompanists, whilst the accompanists need to hear the main artist and each other. If there is no effective stage monitor, the only way they know to achieve this is asking for the house-speaker volume to be increased. Whilst we can't blame them, we should put the audience first, and say no! If the audience is not comfortable with what they hear then the concert is pointless: the artists can sing at home, any day.

The prime responsibility rests with the concert organisers, to provide proper equipment which is operated properly, fulfilling the needs of both musicians and audience. The musicians should never be allowed to override the audience requirement. If the musicians want to start demanding this mic, or no monitor --- they can go play somewhere else!

Anyway (and I have this from a concert organiser

) --- if the equipment is well operated, the musicians will simply not know that it is the monitor speakers that have been increased, not the house speakers

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 01 Jul 2010, 20:29

I wonder if most systems allow independant variation of the volume of each mic, separately for the monitor and the hall speakers.

eg: If mridanga vidwan wants increase of his volume, I do not think that it is possible to increase his volume in the monitor alone without making any change in the hall speakers. The mixing is common for both the speakers; only the overall volume of the monitor can be changed.

This is my belief. Correct me if I am wrong.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 01 Jul 2010, 21:53

kssr,

I don't see why that should be the case. On both analog and digital devices, it's possible to make a copy of the incoming sound and process each of the two copies separately and in differing manners for two differing outputs (one on the monitor and another on audience speakers).

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 02 Jul 2010, 03:48

I have found that the 'sound engineers' at a vast majority of concerts I have attended don't seem to know the basics of sound or physics. Without fail they will keep a speaker pointed towards a mike, resulting in horrible feedback. And without fail they all wear that headphone - why don't try to listen to the sound in the auditorium as-is?
Common sense has become so uncommon indeed.

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 02 Jul 2010, 10:31

srikant1987 wrote:kssr,

I don't see why that should be the case. On both analog and digital devices, it's possible to make a copy of the incoming sound and process each of the two copies separately and in differing manners for two differing outputs (one on the monitor and another on audience speakers).

If you see the normal sound panel used in concerts, you see a row of plugs each one from a mike. Correspondingly you have volume controls for each mike. Then you have the equaliser panel of controls to make adjustment of bass- treble (frequency based ), etc., This is done to the already "mixed "sound, I guess.

Making differing volume adjustment for the input from each mike, to different speakers, you need multiple volume controls for each mike input. I have never seen such a thing in operation in an actual concert.

Theoretically what you say may be possible ( I am not too sure) in a studio set up. But I am just curious if you have seen it happen in an actual concert.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 02 Jul 2010, 11:48

Most average mixers will have separate volume controls for each channel/microphone for both the main output (auditorium) and the monitors. This means that it is possible to reduce the mrudangam in the monitor for example.

Equalization (bass/treble) can be applied individually for each channel but is usually the equalization same for both the main output and the monitors. More sophisticated mixing consoles will have equalization for each input in the mix and the ability to do this separately for the main output and monitors.

If you look at the basic mixer in this picture http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/downloads ... mageid=588
you will notice that each channel has 6 control knobs. The large white one is the overall main (auditorium) volume. The blue one is monitor volume and the green ones are the equalization for each channel. Further across to the right there are red knobs that control the overall mixed main and monitor volumes.

kssr · Post by **kssr** » 02 Jul 2010, 12:52

mohan wrote:Most average mixers will have separate volume controls for each channel/microphone for both the main output (auditorium) and the monitors. This means that it is possible to reduce the mrudangam in the monitor for example.

Equalization (bass/treble) can be applied individually for each channel but is usually the equalization same for both the main output and the monitors. More sophisticated mixing consoles will have equalization for each input in the mix and the ability to do this separately for the main output and monitors.

If you look at the basic mixer in this picture http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/downloads ... mageid=588
you will notice that each channel has 6 control knobs. The large white one is the overall main (auditorium) volume. The blue one is monitor volume and the green ones are the equalization for each channel. Further across to the right there are red knobs that control the overall mixed main and monitor volumes.

Brilliant. Thank you very much, Mohan.

There are knobs marked "Effect" one for each channel and once again for the mixed sound, one for monitor and one for Main. What are they for? Although I have always glanced at the myriad knobs, never had time or adequate curiosity to sit and learn from the operator. I wonder if he knows the function of each knob himself!

I will take this picture and compare it with what our chap brings for the concerts. Good learning info. Thanks again.

Babu · Post by **Babu** » 03 Jul 2010, 00:24

Thanks Radhika-Rajmohan for the mediafire article which addresses the problems one can encounter with the audio system settings. Thanks kssr and Mohan for an illustrated hand on approach for sound settings. In most cases technicians working in various established sabhas are conversant with their equipment and should be able to take care of any situation which may arise after the concert starts. We all the time see hand signals go towards the side where the audio equipment is located with the hope of catching the attention of the technician. Some associations rent the equipment on the day of the concert and results cannot be guaranteed. Mikes are very sensitive devices and should be placed and removed only by the technicians.

As regards the noisy percussion accompanists we are helpless except for the ear plugs. There are quite a few pakka vadhaym vidwans who play well to make the rasikas happy with pleasing decibel levels. On the other hand there are some vidwans who work very hard to a frenzy as if the device is in a gym. My apologies are ready.

I am enjoying reading all your replies. Thanks again.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Jul 2010, 00:31

Babu wrote:As regards the noisy percussion accompanists we are helpless except for the ear plugs. There are quite a few pakka vadhaym vidwans who play well to make the rasikas happy with pleasing decibel levels. On the other hand there are some vidwans who work very hard to a frenzy as if the device is in a gym. My apologies are ready..

The level of any instrument on the stage is down to the sound engineer, not the musician. If you think that a mridangist can drown out the other performers on stage, when their amplification is turned up, and his is turned down, by sheer finger power, then you hugely overestimate the volume that one finger, even a finger with the power of decades of practice, hitting leather can produce.

He could do some sonic damage overusing the left hand, but that would offend against good playing in more ways than volume.

Even on a thread that is better informed, we come back to accusations against the mridangist.

It is possible for a mridangam to drown out the other musicians in a house concert in a small room, and some do, I think, have a problem adjusting the weight of their play to this relatively unusual circumstance.

I'd be quite willing to bet the huge sum of Rs.5/- that, the next time you think you are being deafened by a mridangist, if you can collar the engineer, and bribe him to unplug the poor man... you will then hardly hear him at all!

Babu · Post by **Babu** » 09 Jul 2010, 04:56

Sound engineers cannot set at the optimum levels as he has to satisfy the vidwans. I am not saying that they are deafening but rather uncomfortable. It is much more during the thani. I am referring to only a few vidwans. I sit through all concerts and I do not go to the canteen. I respect all the percussion vidwans and concerts will not be enjoyable or complete without them. Mridhangam will not drown the vocal or any lead instrument. but a very high setting will affect the quality of the concert. Thanks Nick H for your response.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 09 Jul 2010, 05:17

kssr wrote: There are knobs marked "Effect" one for each channel and once again for the mixed sound, one for monitor and one for Main. What are they for?

The top middle section where it says "Digital multi-effect processor", allows the sound technician to choose various effects (mainly reverb/echo effects). Once this is selected, the effect knobs for each channel control how much of the selected effect is applied to that particular channel. There is also an overall effects control, labeled 'effects return'.

The manual for this range of mixers is available at:
http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/pa/ ... _om_d0.pdf
It has some good general advice about mixing.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Jul 2010, 12:52

Babu, I am not saying that there are not mridangists who like to be loud, or that that they are all free of ego. They have just as much as the rest of us! I am saying, though, that the sound is the responsibility of the engineer, and that the engineer should not "satisfy the vidwans": he should satisfy the audience!

I absolutely admit, though, that I am talking of a dream situation. Whatever goes on behind the scenes of concert promotion, the front-of-house image is one of yes-sir-no-sir sycophancy. Before we can even consider technical aspects, the cultural aspects have to fixed --- although a good engineer can, as mentioned before, "fool" the artists by adjusting their monitors, thus making everybody happy! We have a long way to go, and it may take a generation or so to do it. Would I like to be the one to tell BMK to stop fiddling with his microphone and sing into it? No... of course I wouldn't!

There used to be a good, easy-to-read introduction to mixing on the British mixer manufacturer Soundcraft's site. I'll see if I can add that link to the collection here.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Jul 2010, 02:42

The Soundcraft Guide to Mixing

Thanks to Babu, who mailed me the link, especially as it seems to have been revised since I last saw it.

This handy written tutorial explains what a mixer is, what the functions are, and the basics of setting up and using a PA system.

Download from here -> The Soundcraft Guide to Mixing

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 11 Jul 2010, 03:41

Top-of-the-range audio companies like Bose have introduced innovations in audio systems.
E.g. see here for details of Bose system: http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/sho ... /index.jsp

More than just a new type of loudspeaker, L1 portable line array systems provide a completely different approach to live sound. Using proprietary Bose technology, L1 systems combine PA and monitors into a single, highly portable unit that can be positioned behind or to the side of individuals onstage. This novel approach to amplification helps eliminate most of the issues with conventional PA systemsâ€”including excessive reverberation and extreme volume on and near the stage.

They have done away with wires, and have multiple speakers that are distributed throughout the concert hall. And foldback is achieved in a very novel way.
(Btw, shouldn't this thread be in some other section, e.g. General or Technical?)

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Jul 2010, 11:36

Yes, it probably should... in fact, when I was looking for it, yesterday, to post the Soundcraft link, I was surprised not to find it in "technical".

Traditionally, Bose has some respect in PA systems --- but very little in the hifi world, where their products are largely a case of "lifestyle" marketing rather than good sound. For no particular reason, I do not often go to the Music Academy, but their Bose system seems pretty good to me.

I suspect, though, that innovations such as this will remain well outside the financial reach of the average sabha. All that we can hope for is that they see the importance of investing as much as possible in their sound equipment --- and their engineers! How nice it would be to be able to "endow" some of our favourite halls with the best and finest, but it would come to nought if not used properly. Any philanthropists reading this?

Mind you... I remember being sat in front of a microphone at London's Millenium Dome (that famous white elephant!) that I was told was priced at over GBP1,000. I wonder how long it would last with artists (and even "engineers") thumping it as a sound check! :devil:

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 11 Jul 2010, 21:36

BOSE is one of those brands which SUED& PREVENTED their Frequency Response & other technical characteristics being published in Critical Performance Reviews in HI-FI Magazines. As a matter of fact THEIR products perform quite below par to comparable systems but it is popular as most appear to have bought their non-technical advertising skills......Music Academy Sytem sounds decent in comparison to the rest as they are so terrible...Of course in Chennai etc the systems are so poor& below par these remarks may be just academic.......VKV

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 12 Jul 2010, 00:38

Not sure that Bose's challenging its technical details being made public in itself implies its products are below par! I have listened to quite a bit of audio in my adult life, and have found Bose delivers consistently. Your experience may be different - do feel free to share with details.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Jul 2010, 01:11

They consistently deliver image.

They might have been the first to make very tiny speakers sound bearable, and made this their niche market. Like the iPod, 10/10 for design and for marketing. They are not hifi.

If you wish to champion their cause, I suggest www.hifivision.com, probably India's premier site for hifi, home theatre, etc. You'll soon discover the general impression that people have. There are perfectly valid reasons for buying Bose, but they tend to be more in the line of interior furnishing than in that of getting the best sound for your money. This is not to say that they sound bad (although the home-theatre setup on demo in shops usually does sound horrible) just that the same amount of money spent on "traditional" speakers would probably yield much better audio results.

VKV... I guess my ears are just becoming accustomed to the "Chennai sound"! What's more, my decreasing earsight is coming to prefer the higher volumes of which I used to complain.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 12 Jul 2010, 01:39

I was talking about Bose in the context of PA system, not home theater etc.
The quality of the Bose system at Music Academy is one clear example that they deliver real stuff, not just image. Distributed sound over small, quality speakers is far better than the sound blasted from those monstrosities you find in several mediocre sabhas.
Of course, it's personal choice, I agree.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Jul 2010, 01:47

I was talking about Bose in the context of PA system, not home theater etc.

Then I agree! Sorry for the digression

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 12 Jul 2010, 09:01

I was talking about the HIGH END BOSE systems& the magazine I referred to was STEREO-HI FI in USA for whom I used to measure technical characteristics as a hobby as I knew the technical staff quite well. Actually I have been building P.A. Systems from the time OUR ESTEEM,ED ex-president Abdul Kalam was a student at M.I.T. and superheterodyne receivers were built by students at M.IT. CHROMEPET Hostel! The account I had written about actually happened when they sued & went to court. This was some years back & to my knowledge the situation reg. trying to get them to publish experimental data is still true. I am not saying their systems are bad. It has to do with A-B testing of various systems. For example even today no one has been able to duplicate the performance of the Mcintosh tube amplifier tho' digital systems are claimed to be superior etc.......If one likes BOSE its fine. I am only saying on a COMPARATIVE BASIS its one among MANY decent systemsbut not GREAT by any stretch......VKV

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Jul 2010, 13:02

(VKV, the breadth and depth and variety of your experience never fails to amaze! Looking forward to seeing you again in December)

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 12 Jul 2010, 14:05

Extracts from a critical review of Bose product from Stereophile magazine: http://www.stereophile.com/historical/425/index3.html
"If we were to judge the 901 in terms of the best sound available, then, we would say that it produces a more realistic semblance of natural ambience than any other speaker system, but we would characterize it as unexceptional in all other respects. It is ideal for rock enthusiasts to whom sheer sonic impact is of paramount importance, and for classical listeners who want the next best thing to ambient stereo without the cost and the bother of rear-channel add-ons. However, we doubt that the 901 will appeal to perfectionists who have developed a taste for subtleties of detail and timbre."

Based on the above, I would say Bose delivers the goods at least as far as Carnatic music concert is concerned.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 12 Jul 2010, 18:30

Based on the above, I would say Bose delivers the goods at least as far as Carnatic music concert is concerned - I am inclined to agree with this statement. I happened to visit one of their show room studios where they demonstrated their speaker system, very impressive indeed.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 13 Jul 2010, 00:17

ragam-talam wrote:Extracts from a critical review of Bose product from Stereophile magazine: http://www.stereophile.com/historical/425/index3.html
"If we were to judge the 901 in terms of the best sound available, then, we would say that it produces a more realistic semblance of natural ambience than any other speaker system, but we would characterize it as unexceptional in all other respects. It is ideal for rock enthusiasts to whom sheer sonic impact is of paramount importance, and for classical listeners who want the next best thing to ambient stereo without the cost and the bother of rear-channel add-ons. However, we doubt that the 901 will appeal to perfectionists who have developed a taste for subtleties of detail and timbre."

Based on the above, I would say Bose delivers the goods at least as far as Carnatic music concert is concerned.

IT does after a fashion. Actually the problem is more fundamental than just the BOSE SPEAKERS. Assuming the Hall seats, reflection from walls & other considerations were taken into account Like NY Phiharmonic Hall, Royal Albert Hall, Sydney Opera etc next comes the MICROPHONES which are the weakest link at least in India. If you have heard MMI OR MSS without microphones you will be surprised how much their voice is COMPROMISED by the P.A.Systems in Halls. ALSO it is generally agreed that Greek theater is ideal & the MIC that came closest to it was NIMBUS System which used 50 mics in one location-the mic externally would look like any other mic & there are recordings of Ramani etc using this system. Unfortunately it required extra circuitry in the amplifier and the EXTRA 50 dollares killed ONKYO which made it like Yamha which had basically 57 "knobs". REG Speakers again cross over circuits( like POLK) & Holgraphic approaches ( like Carver ) are far superior & COST same or less than Bose. Actually they can be OPTIMIZED SPECIFICALLY for the frequency& harmonic-sub-harmonic content in Carnatic or any other music. Of course the new composite material speakers are tremendous also.

My main reason for writing again is:
1) We should not settle for it sounds ok or better than other halls etc logic. Music Academy has been making millions paid for by folks like you & me( I am an ordinary middle class Joe) as well as the performing artists & should not have a system that is not even as good as my home system granted it is a high end system.
2) I met a Fiinsh composer who turned down the M.A. Hall for various obvious defects& opted for open air perfprmance( He collaborates with Karaikudi Mani). So I am not alone in this....
3)I have met Dr. Amar Bose & consider him brilliant. As is well known he studied at MIT Cambridge.
4) My MAIN HOPE is the CURRENT GENERATION is more KNOWLEDGEABLE & CAN IMPROVE IN THIS AREA. One shd not settle for less than the BEST ESP. if the organisation can afford it. While the Canteen & artists are great the equipment can also be made better if ENOUGH KNOWLEDGEABLE PERSONS DEMAND IT.
Incidentally ROCK MUSIC is the EASIEST for most P.A, Systems; ITS the Western Classical & OPERA music that is hardest as the pitch can be perfect as well as the timbre etc......VKV

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Jul 2010, 01:22

I bought my wife a pair of earphones for Rs.900 two days ago.

I have been happily (although not without ogling some of the high-range stuff) using my earphones that cost me about GBP40 eight or nine years ago --- but I was amazed to hear what is available now for 1/4 the price. Very decent hifi equipment for the home has been ever-more increasingly available over the past couple of decades, but still, the steps, when one chooses to climb them, are big ones.

In professional equipment, the steps are even steeper. Major halls is one thing: what can the average sabha afford?

ROCK MUSIC is the EASIEST for most P.A, Systems;

because LOUD is often the quality most valued by both performer and audience. When I went to my last big rock concert about 20 years ago, I was wondering if I was mad to even try it. I had forgotten that The Grateful Dead had been very concerned with sound quality and the whole chain from instrument to wall of speakers. The only times that my ears were uncomfortable with the volume were when the crowd sang too!

If you have heard MMI OR MSS without microphones you will be surprised how much their voice is COMPROMISED by the P.A.Systems in Halls.

Does this not apply to all but the weakest of voices? Instruments, especially veena, are not only compromised, but changed out of all recognition. If more rasikas did attend some rock concerts, it might prompt them to ask why we have made the veena sound like electric guitar!

Babu · Post by **Babu** » 13 Jul 2010, 03:42

I never thought for a moment this thread will lead to hitech discussion. Thanks CACM, Nick H, and RAGAM-TALAM for taking these discussions to the next level. Sabin will be proud of you all.

http://www.acoustics-engineering.com/sabin/wcsabine.htm

I very much doubt whether our music halls will go to the extent desired by CACM. Expense is one reason but getting competent people to operate the system is a real hurdle. In December season the sabhas have concerts starting from early morning to 10 PM. Coming up with optimum settings for each concert within the allowed time for the change over and improving the hall acoustics are tough subjects to handle. Sophisticated halls in US or elsewhere may have just one performance for the day.
Regards to you all

Babu

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Jul 2010, 16:34

It is the competency that matters. Without the right training/expertise, an engineer is not going to do any better with the most expensive equipment in the world than he is with equipment better suited to a disco/wedding. In fact, he may do worse: the more parameters available for adjustment, the bigger the potential screw-up.

It is not just an Indian problem: I've seen Indian music messed up in UK, even in pro halls with pro gear and staff. I also remember one Chaurasia concert, which sounded fine to me, but I heard from the tabla player, afterwards, that he had been almost unable to hear the flute. Imagine sitting next to a flute, and not being able to hear it! It sounds impossible, but very strange things happen in the acoustics of auditoria!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 15 Jul 2010, 15:18

Personally, I feel this audio stuff is over-hyped. If these so-called 'sound engineers' could only get the basics right, that would provide a very good audio experience. Fundamentals such as not putting mikes in the direction of speaker output (thus creating bad feedback), making the correct frequency settings for the the vocal and instruments, etc. are sufficient.
No need for fancy techie mumbo-jumbo at all. It's the attention to basic detail - and a common sense knowledge of Physics - that matters. And all this comes at an affordable cost.

I have personally intervened in several concerts where these 'sound engineers' were screwing around with audio, and resolved issues in a matter of seconds. It's amazing how many people don't have common sense.

(Request to Admins: this thread certainly doesn't belong under kutcheri reviews! Could you please move it to, say, General or Techncial. Thanks.)