T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recording

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Jul 2010, 21:12

cacm wrote:
....I asked him (MMI) for his permission & he said: YOU are the only one so far who has asked me for permission to record! When you show up you will find close to 20 recorders going on with NONE of them asking permission from me or the accompanying artists.....

Contrast this what TMK-VS wildly speculated with a high degree of confidence in their article..

Havenâ€™t musicians listened to yesteryear stalwarts through illegal recordings? Whatâ€™s wrong if others do?

Highly probable that those recordings have passed the legal test

mahesu · Post by **mahesu** » 12 Jul 2010, 21:21

If the TV coverage is removed during Thiruvaiyyaru aradhana and concerts, most of the regular visitors from the current crop would eventually disappear. Artists who come there for real homage (few in numbers) would keep coming for doing their service.

kothandapani · Post by **kothandapani** » 12 Jul 2010, 21:33

What a vociferous outcry from the songsters of the younger generation? Vocalists they are! Have to be "vocal"? Let me ask them one question. Dear Krishna and Vijaysiva, do you pay deservedly the artistes who accompany you? It is a well known fact that most of the main artistes serve stingy meals to the accompanying artistes( I agree, there are exceptions). Are you sure that you have sufficient moral grounds to question the intentions of Rasikas? Gentlemen, please make an introspection and then a retrospection. Learn that this holy country has seen several musicians who were generous patrons of Carnatic Music. Even today their music reverberates in our ears. Can you match their immortality? Rendition of "Viriboni" as the main item before a very distinguished yet unfortunate gathering may give you a place in history but not in the minds of all rasikas. Immensely talented you are; Undoubtedly. Carnatic Music would be better served if you concentrate more on the quality of your music rather than the number of controversies you ignite".

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Jul 2010, 21:48

Carnatic Music would be better served if you concentrate more on the quality of your music rather than the number of controversies you ignite.

I can't argue with that --- but isn't starving one's accompanists something that belong to an age past? In fact, are not the musicians paid individually these days? Whenever I am hanging around at the end of concerts, it looks like individual envelopes to me.

I do think it is fair to bring in the matter of payment to composers, but I don't think we should seek miscellaneous mud to sling. It doesn't move the debate onward.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 12 Jul 2010, 22:01

Individual wishes or directions cannot override an Act passed by the Parliament. (Please refer post #41.)

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 12 Jul 2010, 22:24

krvramani wrote:Frankly, how many vidwans have cared to allot at least one percent of their fabulous earnings towards the upkeep of the memorials as well as taking care of poor descendants of the Trinity?

If so many vidwans can make fabulous earnings, why can't the descendants? How many generations of descendants will long for somebody to take care of them?

krvramani wrote:In the recent Thiruvaiyaru Utsavam, except Dr.Ramani, Umayalpuram Sivaraman, Sudha Raghunathan (regular visitors) and a few recognizable vidwans, many leading artists have coolly stayed away. Why can't these so-called leading vidwans come to this yearly festival and pay homage to that Great Saint, using whose "Kritis" these people made a fast buck and are leading a comfortable life? I was really pained to see the rank commercial mindset of our vidwans.

Before Smt. Nagarathinamma started this holy exercise, how many of the then stalwarts were visiting Tiruvaiyaru to pay their respects? The mere fact that the CM artistes handle Sri Tyaga Brahmam's kritis with devotion and sincerity is more than sufficient, than making yearly visits to Tiruvaiyaru to mark their attendance. Secondly, why only Sri Tyaga Brahmam and Tiruvaiyaru? How about visiting the birth/death places of so many other composers -- great as well as not-so-great? The Artistes can select places of their choice to pay respects.

krvramani wrote:I was really pained to see the rank commercial mindset of our vidwans.

Whatever profession one takes, a commercial mindset is essential. In any profession, each participant will aim for the next bracket. For this they keep on improving the quality of their 'product'. The market system takes care of the pricing according to the quality. The profession of carnatic music is no different.

bhavarasa · Post by **bhavarasa** » 12 Jul 2010, 22:37

I think that there are two distinct points of debate that we seem to be mixing together and muddying the discussion:

1. According to the Copyright Laws of the land, Does the artiste (or group of artists) on stage legally own the performance and therefore all copies of it?

This is a legal question. There can only be one answer, whether you agree with it or not - it's the law.

2. If they do own it, is it morally justifiable - especially in the case of CM?

This is the question I feel is open for debate. Factors like livelihood, misrepresentation of the artists' skills (due to poor quality of recording) have to be taken into account. For starters, I do not know what percentage CD (recordings of live concerts) sales constitute of an artist's income. I suspect this varies depending on vocalist vs. instrumentalist/accompanist and also popularity and/or seniority of said artist. If it is a significant number, then I can understand why an artist feels that illegal recordings eat away at that revenue stream. On the other hand, if it is not, then I'd probably encourage such recordings (ala Grateful Dead) so as to increase the popularity and "mass appeal" of that artist, thereby driving more rasikas to his/her concerts and consequently being in a position to demand a higher fee from the organizer.

There is no single answer to the second question. It depends on which side of the equation you are and your own personal perspective.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 12 Jul 2010, 22:55

bhavarasa wrote:According to the Copyright Laws of the land, Does the artiste (or group of artists) on stage legally own the performance and therefore all copies of it?

The Law provides that the copyright of all public performances rests with the concerned Artiste. But the Law also provides that anyone can make an audio or vedio recording of the programme for his 'personal use only' or for the purposes of bona fide teaching, research, or review.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 12 Jul 2010, 23:01

Unless the artists with organizers support, announce before the concerts that their renditions are copy righted and recording the event is violation of copy right laws, the public will record the event. I do not know if any organizers post public notice to this effect at the event center

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 13 Jul 2010, 00:36

Nick, in many instances, the payment is still made to the main artiste who then distributes a share as he/she sees fit to the accompanists. And accompanists, let me assure you, are still paid very poorly these days, regardless of whether it's the organisers or the artistes who pay them.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Jul 2010, 01:03

Thank you Bilahari. I wondered if I was going to be corrected on that point.

suma · Post by **suma** » 13 Jul 2010, 02:17

Music is divine and is a part of our vedas and upanishad's. Unlike our education system, music is still passed on from guru to shisya. One has to offer our music to attain spiritual advancement and understand the intricacies of life and post life. There are so many inner meanings defined through the lyrics and works of our Trinity and other divine composers. For example in Srinivasa Thiruvenkata, hamsanandi, composed by Papanasam Sivan, it says "free me from the fear' towards the end of the song in charanam.

What does this exactly mean? My older sister aged 42 died on June 9 this year. In doing all the ceremonies for the 13 days, they did things referred to in the Garuda Puranam.

I read the Garuda Purana and it actually describes what happens to our soul after our life.

This music that we learn, sing, listen to, is way above the meager financial gains that people are objecting to. This music is not meant for personal financial gains. The artists who actually render this music to lay men like us with a pure and a divine thought are infact uplifting themselves spiritually.

It is not late, atleast now, I sincerely urge the artists to offer divine music as an offering to God and not ignite reactions from people. If one is spiritually advanced, they would know what I am talking about here.

Music from Trinity is not copyright property of present day musicians.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 13 Jul 2010, 02:39

>>Music from Trinity is not copyright property of present day musicians.<<
In a moral sense, it is true. But in a business sense, it gets tweeked a bit. If a musician delivers a kriti of the Trinity in exactly the same mode that was sung by them then it is not copyrightable (you have to prove it is so). If the way in which it is delivered (interpretation) bears the stamp of the individual then it becomes his property ( not the kriti but the airwaves in a live concert and the bytes on a magnetic medium). It is like getting a patent on a product which was not known before but uses peripheral technology that enables the owner to build the new product. It is based on knowledge generated in the past but the product is new. That is the concept.

Having said that, the musician can still rise above the petty things. But who is to decide what is petty or not?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Jul 2010, 02:49

Music from Trinity is not copyright property of present day musicians.

They do not say it is: they say that their performance is.

I used to work for an art publisher. We might make a reproduction of a painting two hundred years old. The painting was not in copyright, but each and every one of our printed reproductions was our copyright. Anyone could reproduce that painting, if they took the trouble to obtain access to it and get the necessary quality photographs. If they tried to short-cut the process by basing their reproduction on one of our prints, they were in trouble. There is more to copyright than meets the eye.

Music may be divine: artists have to live. It goes without saying that the greatest musical performances are "divine" (according to how each one of us might understand it) but divinity, at least that which is manifested through human endeavour, has many practical down-to-earth aspects and, in the context of this subject, I think it is a red herring.

<cross-posted with mahakavi, who puts it better>

In fact, it may be tweaked more than a bit: In a performance of any given kriti, especially if it is a major piece in the concert, the alapana is the composition of the performers, as is the kalpana swaras, and the neraval (variations on a theme) is shared. I'd go so far as to say that the most exquisite hights of a great concert are likely to be in the Manodharma (did I spell thatright? It's past even my bedtime) aspects. The composers, trinity or others may be the inspiration or the launching point, the compositions are a vital base of the music, but surely we go to see the creativity of a musician when we go to a concert?

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 13 Jul 2010, 03:42

I agree. It is the individual performer's manOdharma which attracts me to a concert, though it may well be argued that the phrases in raga alapanai, the original sahitya in neraval, and the swara patterns in kalpanaswaras are mostly derived from compositions as well! In fact I'd think a strong case could be made for that.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 13 Jul 2010, 04:25

Vainika, I just got the point of your post upon reading it a second time! Ha.

Curious paper too.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Jul 2010, 04:57

May be, one way to make this recording problem go away is for the artists to bribe the sound person to make it more atrociously bad than it usually is

ha.. ha..

One thing I noticed is TMK-VS is preaching in general, not just about their concerts. We would definitely like to hear from other artists.. May be some other artist will give blanket permission to record their concerts, like the grateful dead.... Just some competition on this front would spice things up.

MV · Post by MV » 13 Jul 2010, 08:20

I've just read this today and my thinking is closest aligned to #12 by Mahakavi and numerous views of Nick H. In my opinion, we do expect our musicians to be saintly!! People, get real. As opposed to the Trinity, these are professionals trying to make a 'good' living out of the art. I defend their right to protect their turf. I want them to make a 'good' living so CM is seen as a viable option by the next generation-otherwise we are shrinking the pot to our own detriment. As a student of music, I have 2 points to note:
1) The Internet and modern technology is definitely eroding copyright rules. I think there is over-exposure and it kills the spontaneity of music. Like Nick H, I prefer live concerts to recorded music. The traditional guru-shishya learning and relating is out. You can get any sahityam and learn any version off the net-in the long-term it only waters down the 'lineage'. With a lot of illegal recordings, that is what will happen-you think you have learnt TMK's version of a song. Five years later, the self-taught versions abound and it doesn't sound quite right. I was listening to SSI singing 'Chetasri' yesterday-sounds so much more better than others I have listened to today-I think its because it was come by the hard way.
2) Performing Arts like Sport is an elusive career. We should learn from the Australians. Any major sporting event-Olympics, cricket, tennis-you will see an Australian there. Thats because they protect and promote their talent. They have a Sport Academy which picks talent, hones it and gives it 100% backing. We should take a page from their book, specially since we're all obviously in this forum to promote carnatic music!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 13 Jul 2010, 08:53

MV wrote:. We should learn from the Australians. Any major sporting event-Olympics, cricket, tennis-you will see an Australian there.

Australia has a sporting culture. Sport plays a big part in school here. Instead of learning a second language or a musical instrument, kids are more likely to be participating in some kind of competitive sport. We have thousands of sporting ovals and gyms but only a handful of concert halls!

svkashyap · Post by **svkashyap** » 13 Jul 2010, 11:16

The whole discussion seems to be about compositions and songs. What about ragas "newly invented"? Are these ragas copyrighted by the inventors? For example, Dr.Balamurali Krishna has many new ragas to his credit. Does anyone composing or singing swarams in an RTP in these new ragas amount to violation of copyright?

tiruppugazh · Post by **tiruppugazh** » 13 Jul 2010, 11:32

We are all wasting our time on this topic.

At the risk of sounding pompous, let me state that all that needs to be said on this topic has been said in Post #16.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 13 Jul 2010, 12:23

POST 70 OF SV Kashyap, Without showing disrespect to the creators of new raagas I wish to add that these raagas are very very rarely sung even by their disciples A rtp of a raaga in four swaras!!!! :^) MY apologies to the creators of new raagas . GOBILALITHA

S.Balaji · Post by **S.Balaji** » 13 Jul 2010, 16:25

My experience was totally different !

Veena Gayathri Madam's performance in Shanmukananda recently was recorded by me and uploaded to my Blog. She was very courteous and even checked with me whether she can use the links to her website !

Not all artists are of the same wavelength on this matter is my opinion.

Lets also take the case of budding artists . Will they not consider this Youtube/ blog uploading as a great means of promoting their music ?
Or for that matter, the very TMK / VS would have gleefully taken this with both hands during their formative years ?

Divine music should be made available free to this Universe. Dont take this as a money making business venture . Otherwise, pay royalty to the current successors of the great composers .

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Jul 2010, 16:49

Dont take this as a money making business venture .

We keep on saying ...that artists have to eat.

But, that aside, I know what you mean. It is possible to make a very great deal of money in business by having the policies of great customer service and great product, rather than just thinking about money in the till. It is possible for artists to live, and to live well, without being entirely commercial.

Once again, I am reminded of the sixties/seventies. There was pop music, the top twenty, and commercial success, and there was "progressive" rock. Some of those "progressive" musicians made a very great deal of money, but they did not do so by manufacturing some trite tune to sell to as many kids as possible. Of course, there were classic "pop" songs, just as there was a great deal of rubbish on the "progressive" side.

S.Balaji · Post by **S.Balaji** » 13 Jul 2010, 17:08

Infact watching those Youtubes or listening to Musicindiaonline etc makes me curious to attend concerts of those artists . IMO, this only enhances their image and gives a wider reach.

How else can potential artists come into the limelight ? This media gives an ideal platform for such candidates no ? A google search on say for example Gokul Chandramouli leads me to rasikas.org !

As Nick rightly pointed out, delivering a superior quality concert can be the motto of these persons. Else , from now, dont ever sing NIDHI CHALA SUKHAMA

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 13 Jul 2010, 17:21

one point missed by all.
early recordings on tape meant hardship for people recording ,too.
and at considerable expense.
it is the ease with which mp3 recording is done today that tickles these two in the wrong places.
what is surprising is the lack of artistry by the so called artists in handling this issue.why do they have to sing in duet here ? yacm reasons perhaps ? that kind of unionism is no longer relevant in mainstream industry too. why cant they cajole us into the right ways like say a birju would have done - in that imaginary world birju would have , with a beautiful wave of hand , said : come I will sing for you and you alone.

walk around anywhere in india
bus travellers ,truck drivers , roadside dhabas , car stereos ...it is music music everywhere. this whole country is singing .and there is this stream of music ...on the verge of extinction and here are two chaps ....cutting off the tree branch on which they are sitting ?

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 13 Jul 2010, 17:44

mankuthimma wrote: ....cutting off the tree branch on which they are sitting ?

This will perhaps give them the wrong impression of being compared to kalidas

SKA · Post by **SKA** » 13 Jul 2010, 19:47

Clearly Mr T M Krishna and Mr Vijaya Siva do not know the law. INDIAN COPYRIGHT ACT, 1957 CHAPTER VIII Section 39 categorically states that

Acts not infringing broadcast reproduction right or performerâ€™s right.

â€“ No broadcast reproduction right or performer's right shall be deemed to be infringed by-

(a) the making of any sound recording or visual recording for the private use of the person making such recording, or solely for purposes of bona fide teaching or research; or
(b) the use, consistent with fair dealing, of excerpts of a performance or of a broadcast in the
reporting of current events or for bona fide review, teaching or research; or
(c) such order acts, with any necessary adaptations and modifications, which do not constitute infringement of copyright under.

So friends, do not fear your act of amateur recording to be illegal. However as good rasikas please ensure you do not make commercial use of it.

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 13 Jul 2010, 20:14

Since recording a concert for one's private and personal use is perfectly legal(vide post no 41 by pratyksham bala) no artist has the right to ask anyone not to record as it would amount to infringement in the rights of the recording person.
company recorded CDs are well edited re-edited and doctored and manipulated by all electronic accessories so that all questionable areas are corrected leisurely at will. Naturally the artistes feel that it is what they want their audience to take as their own output . Those who cry hoarse against recording do not have that much of confidence on their spontaneous performance.
With the advancement of technology No TMK or V S or Any sabha could ever prevent a determined person from doing a recording of a public performance.At the most they can implore or make an appeal .

SKA · Post by **SKA** » 13 Jul 2010, 21:00

@ Ponbhairavi - you are right ! as we see it is perhaps illegal on the part of artists to prevent such amature recording in the name of copyrights !!! probably they are talking about krishna and Siva law and not about Indian law !

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Jul 2010, 21:20

I am surprised at the actual legal situation as discovered by you guys --- in my mother country, anyone caught making a recording would be thrown out! I used to have a working knowledge of the UK copyright law as it applies to pictures, but I never worked with music: maybe they have been only bluffing us there!

I thought that copyright law was pretty-much agreed internationally.

Ragjay · Post by **Ragjay** » 13 Jul 2010, 22:38

This debate has generated a lot of discussions. I am not sure whether the artists are also aware of the flip side of the coin of rights of the performer, their duty and obligations as a performer. They should also talk about this aspect and they should not talk of their rights only in isolation.. They must understand that the rasikas also can cause their performances to be subject to legal scrutiny . I would welcome views on this aspect also.This would include the infringement of the rights of the composer,the quality of their performances,and their public behavior on the stage and the right of those organizing these performances. Performers cannot take up only the cause of their rights but also their duties and obligations as well. Ragjay

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Jul 2010, 00:05

TMK and VS may have stirred the hornet's nest inadvertently. They might have honestly felt that they were harmed financially by clandestine recordings of their concerts. Whatever it is we can let them stew in the controversy they generated. Certainly they have generated lot of bad publicity for themselves (amongst an unforgiving rasika community) which may affect their gate collection and media sales in the future to some extent. There may be sympathetic boycotts too among the general rasika community. There is perhaps one honorable way out. If TMK and VS issue a retraction of their demand in seven different music forums or write another article in the New Indian Express, everything will be back to normal. What say, you rasika community?

Disclaimer: I have no connection whatsoever with the said pair.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Jul 2010, 00:13

If TMK and VS issue a retraction of their demand in seven different music forums..

I see what you are doing there!!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 14 Jul 2010, 00:17

It would be good fun if a whole group of rasikas right in the front rows pull out their mobile phones and pretend to be recording their concerts - that should freak them out!
And if they stop their singing and make a hue & cry, the rasikas can ask for a refund because the concert was not upto their expectation! (esp if TMK inserts viriboni in the middle of the concert, or sings jana-gana-mana!)
Bullies like these two need to get it back in kind. That will hopefully put them back in their place.
VS was ok so far, but it must be the company he keeps nowadays...

Disclaimer: I too have no connection whatsoever with these blokes.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Jul 2010, 01:06

Ragjay, When tickets are paid for, then the audience members can start talking of their rights: those of us who are lucky enough to live in Chennai get most of our music for free, which doesn't give us much in the way of rights.

mahakavi. I see what you're doing there too!

r-t. re refunds... maybe, if one had paid in the first place! I shouldn't like to associate the word bully with Vijay Siva. I may not like this article, but my entire experience of him, so far, is of a very gentle, very classical, very sincere, and very talented performer.

(I've used the word "sincere" twice, today, on this forum, and I don't even read The Hindu reviews. This is very worrying. If I start dreaming about Sabha speeches next, I may have to give up carnatic music, for the sake of my health!)

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 14 Jul 2010, 01:06

Mod..

Is it possible to take a poll on this issue?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Jul 2010, 01:12

Well, my vote would still be undecided! The views for and against are making for a very interesting conversation.

Whatever, though, I think that the reality is that recording of carnatic concerts is going to continue, whether the artists like it or not, because it is almost part of the...

... Tradition

There: I've played a rasika's trump card!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 14 Jul 2010, 02:47

Nick H wrote:r-t. .. I shouldn't like to associate the word bully with Vijay Siva.

He is surely being a bully thru the article? That does elevate him in the bully ranking.

... Tradition

Lovely rendition of Tradition

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Jul 2010, 03:12

Oy vey! My life!

And only last week I paid a visit to the beautiful Kochi synagogue

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 14 Jul 2010, 09:20

To decide legality, only the copy rights law enacted should be refered. All those havng serious objections, can only file petition for review of the Act.
We, rasikas are all high on freebies culture. We have money for all other popular pursuits of entertainment and consumption, but not for cutcheri music, except for the ticketed ones. The recorded music are being used extensively in all public and private functions and celebrations, without any concern and fear of punitive action.
Legal actions are being taken against piracy, after the realization of the havoc and damage done by the piracy.
Only popular artists -which has time tenure-suffer least on account of illegal recording/sharing of the music, because the rasikas unsatiated demand of such artist music. Sense of pride of possession of such artists music being the driving force. But other artists do suffer.
We should be sincere and mindful that exhibition or entertainment does not take away the possession rights. When majority of artists suffer silently, few dare to take up the issue and make appeals in the larger interest of the suffering group. Only popular artists are heard or their statements are taken notice. We should applaud such artists who are helping the cause and not deride them, without checking the facts.
Finally, for the value of possession and pleasure derived out of such recordings, freely, is taking the 'consent' of the performing artist is unworthy action?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Jul 2010, 13:13

May I insert a word into your sentence?

----- We, Chennai rasikas are all high on freebies culture.

In London, concert going was a substantial part of my budget. Only arangetrams and music performed by amateurs and youngsters in temples was/is free. I'm guessing this may be largely true for our USA rasikas as well? I absolutely agree that we, in Chennai, are completely spoilt by an excess of free music, and that this reflects in audience attitudes and behaviour.

Legal actions are being taken against piracy, after the realization of the havoc and damage done by the piracy.
...
But other artists do suffer.

What havoc. What damage? How do they suffer?

the case has not been made, and that this article also fails to make it, I thought, had been established in this thread.

balakk · Post by **balakk** » 14 Jul 2010, 15:49

I think they should rather encourage recording, but discourage re-distribution. Recording is natural; the human eardrum has already recorded their output!

There are several advantages:
- Their music gets immortal; stored with innumerable rasikas who make it to their concerts. Perhaps after the expiry of their copyrights, it can be shared with the general public.
- Fair-use rights: People who just want to excerpt a short clip can do so without apprehension. This also helps in teaching, research etc.

Of course, preventing distribution is easier said than done, with mobile phones capable of direct uploads to Youtube etc. Tact helps; sanjay does it well with a quiet admonition. Compared to other genres, I find carnatic rasikas very respectful of artists, and likely wont distribute without permission of the artist. Sama, dhana, bedha, dandam in that order please!

Another option that can be tried is to jack up the ticket price by say Rs.100, have a professional(unedited) recording of the Live concert done, and handout a CD when people leave the concert. I guess some bands have done this. This way, people get to relive the concert experience, and the artist is also paid.

An important question is how long should copyrights last? I have immense respect for an artist's rights on his works, but the current trend of nearly perpetual copyrights, even after an artist's death, is disheartening. We need to try out different models that fairly compensate the artists, at the same time make their music more accessible.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Jul 2010, 16:10

I made myself somewhat unpopular on another thread some time back by maintaining that nobody has a right to be supported because of who their great, great, great grandfather was, especially when they have already sold off the ancestral property. I am quite happy with the duration of copyright as determined, and amended, by law, national and international.

I am also perfectly content to be requested not to record (which I seldom do anyway) by any artist. I'll certainly respect the request. Being given spurious and unproven reasons why, in general, people should not, however, does not impress me.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 14 Jul 2010, 16:24

Scenario in Cinema Theater:
------------------------------
I go to a movie theater to see the movie Ten commandments . This movie has dramatised the biblical story of Moses .I see the movie . Am I allowed to take a video camcorder and shoot the movie inside the theatre and keep it for my personal use ,citing the same copyright sections as few have stated before.

Scenario in Kutchery SabhA:
---------------------------
Compare this with me going to narada ganA sabhA to hear a concert where a present day musician is singing an annamAcharyA krithi,can I record this program and keep it for personal use without their consent.

How different is the second from one , only the content is different , but as such both should have the same rules of copyright .For those who quote some copyright writings (like few of them in the thread), what is your stand for the first scenario, would you think that you can take a video shoot of ten commandments in a movie theatre and keep it for your own personal use citing the actual copyright owner is only moses or bible and not the producer of ten commandments.

C'mon as such to do it clandestinely and share with your close friends is one thing that many do for the love of music,you do it at your own risk. But to quote that the copyright law actually allows you to record for personal use, does not appear fair and right to me.

balakk · Post by **balakk** » 14 Jul 2010, 17:45

Rajeshnat: I definitely believe we should be able to record our experiences, for both live and recorded performances. It's a basic fair-use clause; the fact that theatre-owners prevent it does not make right. I already paid for watching the movie; I should be able to preserve that experience, for my own personal enjoyment. There should be no restriction as long as I don't distribute the movie to others.

I find it quite similar taking a backup of a Movie DVD I purchased. The idea that I would've to pay the artist each time for playing back the same rendition, is puzzling to say the least.

Ragjay · Post by **Ragjay** » 14 Jul 2010, 17:49

Members may click the link for the article and scroll below for remarks of the readers. Some musicians have also made their of point of view. One of the organizers of the musicians tour of the US has made a very caustic comment of these two Interesting comments made. Ragjay

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Jul 2010, 18:24

As part of concert organizers network in the USA, I was dismayed to find that these 2 vocalists , while visiting the USA, were seeking CASH remuneration for their concerts so that tax can be evaded. With such a cheating mentality, they preach about Copyright law. What a joke !! Good that they wrote this article in express so that we all got a chance to unmask them.
By VV Sundaram

Very interesting to hear these comments from VVS who knows the inside truth.
Thanks for unmasking these 'sheep in lion's clothing'.

I hope VKV can add some details on this issue which will enlighten us as to what goes on behind the scenes during concert negotiations in US/Canada. Let more organizers share their experiences too in regard to the unfair practices of teams visiting from India. If you like we can start a separate thread on that issue. That is Dynamite!

( Note: We can not be sure if VV Sundaram in the above quote is the VVS we all know, since anyone can post comments to the article with any name they choose. )

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 14 Jul 2010, 18:45

cmlover
If you look at the list of comments there are some names that are matching carnatic artists too. The VV Sundaram id in the indian express need not be the actual v v sundaram whom we know. It can be a mistaken identity, there could be some mischief intentions(though not 100% sure) .

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 14 Jul 2010, 18:47

That surely is a time bomb to unmask the unfair practices