T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recording

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 14 Jul 2010, 18:54

The VV Sundaram id in the indian express need not be the actual v v sundaram whom we know.

Fair point. For that matter, we can't even be sure if the original article was written by TM Krishna or Vijay Shiva! Maybe it was also written by mischief-makers?

My own experience with artistes has been that most of them ask for payment in cash.
So the statement by VVSundaram (real VVS or not) does have a ring of truth.
These are fairly serious charges, and if found to be true, amount to criminal acts. I hope the tax department is on their case soon.

SKA · Post by **SKA** » 14 Jul 2010, 18:57

As I see now there are 3 distinct angles to this debate - 1. legal 2. ethical and 3. cultural. By law as stated in a previous note sri T M Krishna and Vijay Siva lost on the face of it.

Secondly speaking on the ethical aspect recording as such is not wrong but the loss of financial income for the musicians is the concern. This can definitely be curbed by attacking the trade of such recordings. By and large we can see these recordings are hardly traded as the quality does not permit it. As such ethically too it is not a critical issue.

3 culturally speaking contrary to the stand taken by Sri Krishna and Sri Vijay Siva, Carnatic music is aimed at spreading spirituality not on materialism. If your concerts are aimed at only entertainment and not spiritual experiences then it would be better to take to film music and other forms of music where such talks will not be challenged. Again it clear the authors are not honest to the culture they claim to represent.

Furthermore the article states â€œSaint Tyagaraja (1767-1847) did not ask for royalty. Why? We donâ€™t know.â€ - Dear Sri Krishna and Sri Vijay Siva know about the people who are the doyens of the form of music you claim to practice - these are basics. Please do a small homework of knowing why Sri Thyagaraja swamigal sang "Nidhi Chala Sukhama" or why Sri Muthuswamy Dikshitar sang "Hiranmayeem lakshmim" or Sangeetha Pithamaha Purandara dasa sang "Duggani balu kettadhana"

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 14 Jul 2010, 19:01

Btw, to answer Rajeshnat:
You are legally allowed to record a movie that you go to - so long as you are not doing it with a financial motive.
And you are legally allowed to record a concert - so long as you are not doing it with a financial motive.
The copyright law gives you full permission to do this - please read the relevant sections that have been cited a few times here already.

The artistes or sabha organisers have no legal standing to disallow this.

Hope this point is clear once and for all.

VISHNURAMPRASAD · Post by **VISHNURAMPRASAD** » 14 Jul 2010, 19:29

Why do we need recordings of the present day Vidwans? Are these Vidwans going to surpass the greatness of an Ariyakudi / Musiri / GNB / Alathur or any such great vidwans of the golden era? Dont we have enough recordings to enjoy for our life time? What are we going to benefit in listening to the same "Dinamani Vamsa" or "Nati maata marachithivo" from 100 different vidwans when we already have some of the best renditions that even these Vidwans try to emulate.

If it is something like a simha nandana thala pallavi concert or something phenomenal as some unheard compositions of trinity, we can look at recording them for preserving, learning and passing on to posterity. Otherwise in my personal opinion the present day vidwan's music does not need to be recorded beyond whatever they release commercially as with their current attitude, I dont think they are going to sincerely contribute to anybody's bliss or pleasure of listening to pure outpours of original creativity.

Balummi · Post by **Balummi** » 14 Jul 2010, 20:16

Unnecessary hue and cry has been created over worthless matters . I am with Vishnuramprasad when he feels that none of the present day singers ( not to be called Vidwans)! deserve to be recorded and listened not even for the second time let alone preserved for postirity. When the great Madurai Mani Iyer ( whom I escorted from his house to MFA Sabha in 1962) was all smiles when he was confronted with many tape recorders on the dias . He remarked " why so many recorders? probably they would select the best recorded one and is my music worth listening for a second time?" Has any of our present day vidwan has that humility? Further he used to visit Sri Papanasam Sivan and paid guru dakshinai of Rs.1000( in those days it was a substantial amount) for singing his compositions in concerts!

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 14 Jul 2010, 20:53

I am very happy balummi who knows anything that one needs to know about MMI has chosen to write on this subject. As is known to many a fair estimate about 70-75 percent of MMI'S Concerts were "Thenga Moodi"or did not involve MONETARY CONSIDERATIONS. I know for a FACT that MMI, LGJ& TIRUCHI SANKARAN played for FREE at Vani Mahal for the wedding concert of my friend Late S.S.Venkataraman's sister out of friendship as well as the fact HE WAS THEIR BIG FAN. Such persons are very rare and MMI was a TRUE GANDHIAN........ Actually Papanasam Sivan, ARI among others were FINANCIALLY VERY BADLY OFF towards the end of their lives and LGJ, KVN etc asked persons like me to contribute financially to help them to some extent. I was sending medications from USA to MMI & my brother had sent considerable amount to help the family(as I was organiser in those times I did not contribute money but he could on his own) ......So it is JARRING that ARTISTS who started this subject with their article MORALIZING on the subject should take the Holier than thou attitude. Actually more than the payment from the Sabhas, MOST of the more well known artists make more money teaching students in N.A.To somewhat respond to cmlover I just wish to state that it will just take one phone call from any one organising a tour or concert(in some cases) to STOP practically every artist from ever placing a foot in N.A. The subject is COMPLEX & DETAILS will vary from person to person & every organisation.....This alone is ENOUGH to stop discussions on organisers making money from the artists at least in N.A.......VKV

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Jul 2010, 22:34

Ragjay wrote:Members may click the link for the article and scroll below for remarks of the readers. Some musicians have also made their of point of view. One of the organizers of the musicians tour of the US has made a very caustic comment of these two Interesting comments made. Ragjay

Thank you; I didn't know.
Here is a repetition of the link to the article for those who want to backtrack

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Jul 2010, 23:03

Thanks VKV for that indirect confirmation. I have personally similar experience trying to arrange concerts without naming names! I can legitimately say
Physician(s) heal thyself!
When Mammon rules where is the room for genuine music or for music appreciation!

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 15 Jul 2010, 00:10

Fair point. For that matter, we can't even be sure if the original article was written by TM Krishna or Vijay Shiva! Maybe it was also written by mischief-makers?

My own experience with artistes has been that most of them ask for payment in cash.
So the statement by VVSundaram (real VVS or not) does have a ring of truth.
These are fairly serious charges, and if found to be true, amount to criminal acts. I hope the tax department is on their case soon.[/quote]

Even if it really were VVS, he can mask himself by saying that someone misused his name. Whatever be the consequence, it just needs some one whispering to the Income Tax dept. to do some due diligence. But, in the end, would any of this hue and cry stop people from recording.. No. But what if this turns out into a ugly revelations about these musicians' tax evations!!! that will be costly.. price one pays for arrogance!!!!!!!!

and BTW why are NA organizers paying in cash?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 15 Jul 2010, 00:27

BTW why are NA organizers paying in cash? - so these two artists can deposit their money in swiss banks, perhaps.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 15 Jul 2010, 00:44

LIFE IS FAR MORE COMPLICATED. THATS ALL I CAN SAY IN RESPONSE TO SRI.V.K.Raman's remarks. VKV

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Jul 2010, 00:52

This is very much a sideline issue, even more than how much they pay their accompanists.

I'd be very surprised were it otherwise, and can only say that, for freelancers all over the world, a certain percentage of their income is going to be cash under the counter.

As an full-time employee for most of my life, I have had no choice in the tax I have paid: it got paid whether I liked it or not. I wouldn't like to comment on whether or not occasional exceptions to this were all declared to the taxman: isn't that true of most of us?

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 15 Jul 2010, 01:22

Nick, Is it pot calling the kettle black or the kettle calling the pot black? In Physics its similar to time reversal! VKV

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 15 Jul 2010, 02:05

Well, quite a bit of dirty linen is getting washed here (regarding cash payments and tax evasion etc.,). We are also getting pretty much side-tracked. I suggest we should stick only to the principal issue here--which is --how seriously the duo consider the recording issue and what are they charting as the future course of action in light of all the revelations in this forum. If they insist on going full steam on their interpretation of copyright issue, what is their final stand in view of the specific clauses of the copyright act of 1957? They have not been given a chance to respond in this forum to the countercharges made here. Can some of our members (especially the senior ones like VKV and MKR) send the duo a congenial email, seeking further clarifications and entertaining the idea whether a compromise can be arrived at amicably? Divisive approach is not good for carnatic music community whose health is currently very fragile. I am sure the duo would respond to a good-faith communication from the pair I mentioned here. If the response is negative, then it is a free-for-all game. Let the recorders hum and let the duo stew or go to the courts.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Jul 2010, 02:36

Yes, I think we should hold back on the pots, kettles and dirty linen.

Forgive my memory, but if it is correct, our remarks concerning TMK's lawyer stunt a while back got little more than a scathing aside on his blog (Apologies to all if I made up this "memory"; it happens!). They know we are here. If they have the slightest interest in expressing themselves on this forum they will do so. My tax-paid money is on getting no response!

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 15 Jul 2010, 05:28

Your memory is correct, Nick, and I agree. This is a public forum. They read it and we know they do. If they want to respond, nothing is stopping them. As for the dirty linen being aired, they brought it upon themselves.

ramamantra · Post by **ramamantra** » 15 Jul 2010, 08:48

Interesting discussion, something I have been following the last couple of days. Here is my two cents:

First of all, the Vijaysiva and Krishna generation took to Carnatic music as a profession like people take to engineering or medicine. After a decade, the returns are possibly not as much as the other professionals. So, all the hullabolla. Moreover, there is a lack of structure in the system. Senior artists can be more insecure than junior or entry level artists etc. No pensions or PFs. How to sustain present lifestyle and inflation with this meager income? So, the present generation tries its might to create some kind of structures, a system to pass to enter concert singing, a Carnatic idol competition to getting concerts all over the world etc. TMK wants to view the music as business and speaks against 'illegal' recording affecting sales etc. I guess, he is too bored with the concert pattern and wants things to change at a rapid pace as with other professions. Its too late for these senior artists to jump into other professions to make money.

These people fail to understand that Carnatic music is spiritual and devotional in nature. The very idea of making the music marketable is at crossroads with its inherent nature. One cannot expect a mass audience for this music. The rasika has to be knowledgeable to whatever extent he/she can. The musicians cannot compete with movie stars or even movie singers' fame. Why didnt Krishna or siva try singing a movie song like Sudha or Bombay Jayashree? Coz theirs is not a magnetic or attractive voice like a Yesudas or SPB. Their voices will not sell.

If you take up other professions, in the financial services sector, the stock market is God. People do their might but can never ever surpass the market forces. Similarly, in Carnatic music, the music is God. One cannot try to go against the nature of the music. If times change, the music definitely accepts and adapts. Technology has aided music as in recording devices, skype etc. Nature is not rigid. It changes. The best way is always to go along with the nature. If Siva and Krishna have jumped into the music foray for the initial glitter and glamour, its over. Now, they have to face the reality. Carnatic music and money are definitely two very different things. No wonder, the wise Tyagaraja didnt accept the King's wealthy gifts and sang, "Nidhichala sukhama". Persevere and stick to the music for its nature. If your life is on a decline because of music, accept it. If you have had a great life, that too is coz of the music, accept it gracefully. Let the musicians not attack the rasikas because of money issues. Carnatic music is a class apart. It teaches you the very essence of life.

Last week, I went back to Andamans for a holiday where we had lived as children for a few years. I got to learn more about the tribes, Jarwas. when I learnt that they had survived more than 2000 years with their culture and lifestyle intact, I felt a great respect for them. They did it so by isolation. And if anybody thinks the Jarwas are tribals, let me say this on their behalf. Not one of them died during the Tsunami. They were able to differentiate the amplitude and frequency of the normal tidal waves and Tsunami. For us, technology is outside us. But for them, they are so natural that technology is inside them. By isolation, they managed to survive and grow. Ok, why this example?

Carnatic music does not have to 'change' with times in order to survive and grow. And the 'performers' are not the torchbearers who steer the course of the music. Leave it to the music goddess. She knows better!

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 15 Jul 2010, 09:39

It is indeed interesting to read the brainstorming session posts/replies. But are we free from bias, prejudice, misinformation and misinterpretation?
1) The enacted Copy Rights Act establishes the legal rights and is final guiding and for actions and remedial actions.
2) The chief goals of KM being-attainment of SAT-CHIT-ANANDA and entertainment. ARI's cutcheri format was devised with clear objective of achieving judicious balance of attaining both the goals, but definitely not in isolation. With entertainment objective, offering pleasure and seeking rewards-material and recognition-was intentional with clear motives. The fact of demand and payment of fees to artists by event organizers was/is purely being based on the demand/popularity of both the artists and event organizers, taking examples of behaviour-out of personal choice-can not be the bench mark or legacy for continued practice or application.
During the times of Great Maestros-ARI,MUSIRI,MVI,TIGER,GNB,MMI,ALATHUR BROS, SSI and many other Great Maestros and Maestros, the KM-Cutcheri music- was the begining phase and with well known poor resources of event organizers ( due to very poor, resource management and attitude), the Great Maestros, Maestros, Vidwans and Vidushis, were highly accommodative were always willing to compromize, with satisfaction of getting opportunity and with total focus only on performing to their best of abilities. Even during those times, conflicts were there on this aspect. With improvement and growth in cutcheri KM in the current phase,communication/technology and resources management in comparision with the initial and first phase, assertive behaviour and actions to establish one's rights by the artist(s) is natural and should not be despised. Focus should be only on most efficient and fair practices for the ultimate best results, by all the stake holders of KM.
3) The purported remarks of Shri VVS on demand of cash payment and reaction/replies , assumes unfair/illegal practice, incorrectly, unless proven dishonest/wrong action by the artists. What is demanded may be, is the mode of payment, which is part and nature of transaction.
4) Replies/remarks that there is no value gained in recording and listening to the present performing artists, when already recorded music are available, is highly individualistic and is not applicable in general. The quality or high value of any master or their works do not freeze the creativity and shades of fresh ideas and creative intrepretations continue. On the other side, one may detest the quality of music in recorded music and find improvements in the present offerings. I am privy to many Great Maestros comments of praise/blessings given to highly talented and creative artists of their next generation and present generation of artists.
5) Posts/replies conform to the Vedantic classification of four classes of humans based on the dominating influences in the behaviour and actions-emotional(Bhakthi), intellectual( Gnana) balanced in both (Karma) and underdeveloped in both (Hata).

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 15 Jul 2010, 10:19

It's pretty obvious that the VV Sundaram post is FAKE.
In fact the real arunprakash has commented on the article saying that he was not the person who made that post which had his name. Seems like the article has hit someones nerve and that the have tried to spam the comments section to the reputation of the artists. Quite cowardly.

This is my first post on this thread and I think TMK and VS have not written the article very well. When you're going to touch on a sensitive issue such as this one it would have been smart to think before putting pen to paper.

When someone uploads a recording of any artist. I generally do download it and listen to it when i have time. The reason for that is because I don't live in India and so the only way for me to keep in touch with what the "main" artists are doing is via online downloads. I have bought many many cds from charsur. If tmk and vs want to do something about it they should make their concerts avalible for download more frequently. If they release a reasonable quality live concert cd every 1 or 2 months then I wont bother with illegal downloading.

In fact a bigger problem than rasikas recording concerts is sites like musicindiaonline. the new site has uploaded all commercial albums and made it avalible for free. this is a much bigger problem!

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 15 Jul 2010, 12:07

Considering these two artists have expressed strong views against private recordings of their concerts (for whatever set of reasons, justified or not, (il)legal, (un)ethical: the debate can go on), can the community of rasikas respect this and refrain from recording their concerts, in particular? And, if this is unacceptable, refrain from attending their concerts?

As a more general point, would it be possible to ascertain the views of other concert artists on private recording of their concerts, and abide by their responses? Yes, it would surely be disappointing to those of us whose intentions are to use the recording for purely personal enjoyment. But, then again, I would not want to make a recording at any cost if I know the artist would be upset at it, and if his/her performance were to be affected adversely were he/she to find out.

I'd rather attend an inspired concert of an enthusiastic artist knowing that it won't/cannot be recorded, than have the ability to record the concert knowing the artist is going to be unmotivated or grumpy about it if he/she were to find out.

L Ramakrishnan

p.s. I have myself been at the receiving end of the wrath of One Of The Two Individuals Under Discussion (OOTTIUD), when I was recording a concert of my guru (with her full knowledge and concurrence) some 8-9 months ago. OOTTIUD happened to be among the organizers of the concert. His point was that the concert was being recorded for archival purposes and hence no other recording should be made. I came away with distinctly sour aftertaste at the manner in which he expressed his displeasure - spoiling an otherwise wonderful evening. This rankled, regardless of the validity of his point or lack thereof. I sincerely hope the other OOTTIUD doesn't follow suit with such unpleasantness in future.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 15 Jul 2010, 12:31

can the community of rasikas

There is no such community . At least there was no such community when a poor bangalorean was humiliated , and all of us watched silently.All this talk is just ENO fruit salt. Just fizz and of no use.

I sincerely hope the other OOTTIUD doesn't follow suit

Your hopes are misplaced . You will be well advised to trash every gram of recording of these two,that you may have - paid or paid . Dont be surprised if the other OOTTIUD's contact approaches you for a clip of a rare recording , though.

bottomline . If some artist does not like something , why do that . We have better things to do , dont we ?

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 15 Jul 2010, 12:38

I have to disagree here.
As has been clearly concluded, it's completely legal to record a concert. Hence the artistes have no basis to ask people not to do so.
The argument that if they ask us not to record, we should comply, also doesn't hold any merit. They don't comply with everything that a rasika wants, so why should we?

Case dismissed.
(Mind you, I would most probably trash the recording later - given the quality of the music - but I still have every right to record. These shenanigans dare not ask me to desist from exercising my fundamental right.)

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 15 Jul 2010, 12:41

ragam-talam wrote:I have to disagree here.
As has been clearly concluded, it's completely legal to record a concert. Hence the artistes have no basis to ask people not to do so.
The argument that if they ask us not to record, we should comply, also doesn't hold any merit. They don't comply with everything that a rasika wants, so why should we?

Case dismissed.

r-t: you may well be right on legal grounds. I'm not debating the legality or ethics of it: just the quality of music we're likely to get from a disgruntled artist who knows her/his music is being recorded against his/her wishes.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 15 Jul 2010, 12:44

Hey, that's even better! If my recording their singing will bring down the quality of their music (if it ever existed in the first place), then that's a job well done! It's time these people were thrown out of the concert circuit soonest, with such attitudes - so if their concert quality can be brought down by the mere act of recording, that's a big bonus!
I will make sure I take along my recorder to their concerts, if I ever attend them. I would encourage other rasikas to do the same (even if it's a pretend recorder!). Take them on, don't let them bully you into submission. And make the recording very visible.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Jul 2010, 12:46

vainika wrote:the manner in which he expressed his displeasure

That seems to be the crux of the matter!

badari · Post by **badari** » 15 Jul 2010, 14:54

With so much discussions going on, I would want to openly challenge the authors of the article to excusively conduct concerts of their own compositions.

Lets see the audience's reaction and popularity that they claim !!!

Balummi · Post by **Balummi** » 15 Jul 2010, 15:17

I am sorry to reveal that a few months after the passing away of SRI DKJ , Sri Vijay Siva came to my house asking for some of the rare recordings of his guru ( DKJ ) probably for teaching purposes! I did not know . Would this be possible had Sri DKJ objected to the recording of his concerts? In fact in 1980's in one of the concerts of Sri DKJ in Venus Colony , there was a sudden power failure and after wating for sometime Sri DKJ was strolling along the pathway and in mere admiration I was also walking behind him. He turned to me and said that " I am going to finish atleast this Pantuvarali piece in darkness and without mic. Anyway your battery walkman will record it is it not?"

SKA · Post by **SKA** » 15 Jul 2010, 15:24

To VISHNURAMPRASAD's quote

Undoubtedly present generation artists are no where close to the towering heights of accomplishments of the performers of yester years both musically and spiritually.

Infact in many recent kutcheris I have noticed Sri T M Krishna imitating the legendary Sri Madurai Mani Iyer (and in my opinion failing miserably) â€“ in songs like Ma janaki ; Sarasa sama dana ..etc. What shocked me here is, some teenagers who attend these concerts awe at TMKâ€™s renditions and consider it benchmark. What are we doing ?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Jul 2010, 15:42

Here is the latest from RKS (purportedly the 'real' one) revealing the personal practices of the authors.
The following rider applies that we do not know whether it is genuine or not (until it gets refuted).

I know that the authors have listened (and continue to listen) to a large number of audio cassettes of yesteryear great musicians (such as GNB). I myself have shared a good number of such concerts. And they very well knew/know that those cassettes were not commercially released but clandestinely recorded. This being the case, why to pretend to be a sage , when one is a crook ??
By R K Sriramkumar

If this is true IMHO this is disgusting since GNB non-legal recordings can no longer be shared since his legal heirs have explicitly prohibited such acts. Just like the 'apology' demanded by TMK sometime ago the authors are obliiged to erase such recordings (if true) and post in the web that they have done so. Let us hear from GBR if he is observing these proceedings....

SKA · Post by **SKA** » 15 Jul 2010, 15:45

In this context I would like to express my deep sense of gratitude to all those great people who had taken pains to record the masters of yester years which has helped us to have insight into their greatness. I also like to sincerely thank all those avid collectors of such recordings who have been more greatly responsible for the sustenance of the essence of Carnatic music.

Lets keep the glorious tradition going. Make it a habit so that when great musicians like the yester years again come amongst us we are not unprepared on what to do.

SKA · Post by **SKA** » 15 Jul 2010, 15:52

To cmlover;

I think some person is indiscriminately using artist names and these cannot be the real artists i Sri Arun Prakash or Sri R K Sriram Kumar have a lot at stake when taking head on with Sri T M Krishna or Sri Vijay Siva. Its not common sence on their part to do something like this.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Jul 2010, 16:02

I am also very circumspect about accepting these comments. It is an easy thing to post in a newspaper site.

Even here, we cannot guarantee the off-line identity of our members (other than those that have met), but, at least we have some track record of coming together to discuss many aspects of carnatic music.

I know that my mridangam guruji never speaks ill of another artist. It is part of his professional code. It is not only a matter of high ethics, but of simple practicality. Surely, even an established accompanist is likely to suffer if they are abusive to others. Even if they do not wish to work with an individual, it is a small world.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Jul 2010, 16:08

Point noted!
Same problem with the anonymous postings here as well!
However the genuine TMK can post here and refute the statements if he cares!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 15 Jul 2010, 16:21

Whilst they may not be genuine posts from RKS or Arun Prakash, the sentiments expressed therein do make sense.
Especially when you consider the recent post on this forum by member balummi, where he mentions Vijay Siva asking him for private recordings of DKJ!

Re: the comment at the Express page from Mr Sundar, which I quote below:

M/s Vijay Siva and TM Krishna - you state "For, recording even a bit of music, dance or any performance without the artisteâ€™s permission is legally punishable: under the Copyright Act, 1957."
The above statement is completely FALSE, if you would care to read the text of the copyright act. And I am sure YOU KNOW IT! It would be appreciated if you would retract these assertions. You should also apologize for blatantly misleading the public in your article.

I doubt if we can expect a response from them even to such a direct request!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 15 Jul 2010, 16:45

Reading through these posts makes me wonder about something: During the golden age of CM, most recordings (illegal or legal - sometimes, even the artists' permission doesn't make it legal, as we found out, because of restrictive contracts with some recording companies*) were hoarded rather selfishly, and it was truly for the recorder's listening pleasure alone, to be doled out in carefully measured dollops. In addition, technology (or its lack) did not make these recordings very portable (I can imagine a huge and heavy Grundig being passed around!). I remember visiting certain houses to listen to these non-commercial recordings, but it never occurred to me to ask for a copy - if I wanted to listen to something, I would wait for an invitation, or, if I knew them well enough to presume, visit them without one - there was no expectation of copies of the recording ever being distributed. I am also sure that I would have been refused (with some elaborate excuse) if I'd asked for it. It is only now, probably years after the original recorder's demise, and with the improvement in technology that we now take for granted, that these recordings are seeing the light of day.
Nowadays, concerts that are recorded are (most generously) shared on the www within hours of the concerts, which makes me wonder if the spirit of the Copyright Act, if not its letter is violated, despite the non-commercial nature of the act - can this still be considered 'for the recorder's 'private' use'? And my responses and expectations have also changed - if I hear of a concert recording that I am interested in, I 'ask' for a copy with impunity! I think this is a cultural paradigm shift that the laws have not kept pace with.
But, regardless, I think the whole business (pertaining to an art form that is undoubtedly one of the most refined in the world) has and is continuing to be handled very tastelessly.
*: If anyone thinks that dealing with the artists' in question is bad, wait until you have to deal with these companies - they are several orders of magnitude worse!

vainika · Post by **vainika** » 15 Jul 2010, 16:48

I know that the authors have listened (and continue to listen) to a large number of audio cassettes of yesteryear great musicians (such as GNB). I myself have shared a good number of such concerts. And they very well knew/know that those cassettes were not commercially released but clandestinely recorded. This being the case, why to pretend to be a sage , when one is a crook ??
By R K Sriramkumar

Fake for sure. That's not how RKSK spells his name. Not to suggest that a correct spelling alone is evidence of authenticity...

I think people who make otherwise genuine and valid points completely lose their credibility by faking names, even more so when they use names of musicians.

eesha · Post by **eesha** » 15 Jul 2010, 17:00

vainika wrote: I think people who make otherwise genuine and valid points completely lose their credibility by faking names, even more so when they use names of musicians.

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- Thirukkural (pardon if there are any errors in recollection/reproduction)

It does not matter under what name the comments are published, it is the content that matters

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Jul 2010, 17:13

rshankar wrote: In addition, technology (or its lack) did not make these recordings very portable (I can imagine a huge and heavy Grundig being passed around!).

It was quite something (and this applies to my younger years in UK too) to own one decent reel-to-reel tape recorder, let alone two, and the ability to connect one to another was probably considered fairly esoteric anyway.

Also, copying from one tape to another results in a loss of quality, and a very noticable one over even two or three generations. Only digital files can be copied endlessly and remain the same.

I suppose the cassette would have marked a change, and a change paid for in quality, too. Truly the spiritual father of the low bit-rate MP3!

SKA · Post by **SKA** » 15 Jul 2010, 17:19

To cmlover;

Sri T M Krishna or Vijay Siva may not have followed this thread and knowing Sri T M Krishna, I may well state he does not even see the coments on the article page. If we require a clarification we may directly mail him at the e-mail id mentioned at the bottom of the article. He may in all probability answer to that.

SKA · Post by **SKA** » 15 Jul 2010, 17:33

To rshankar

About fifty years ago cassette recording became poular and I have collected recordings of great masters from people who took the typical cassette recorder to concerts and recorded sitting right in front / near the speaker. It was inconvinient however was not very troublesome/ difficult to record in concerts in yester years. Unfortunately most of these concerts are recorded in parts as one cassette would permit only about thirty mins or forty five mins per side. When we talk of recordings people immediately think of masters who passed away before Independence when only Spool recording and Gramophone recordings were available. Sri Madurai Mani Iyer lived till 1968. and performed till his last days Same with GNB or Chembai who lived into the sixties and performed actively. There was a lot of recording done at that time.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Jul 2010, 17:36

Let us not vent at TMK and VS. There are many others who do not want their concerts surreptitiosly recorded. BJ for one. We know now that GNB cannot be shared freely any more. I wonder the legal heirs of SSI will take any action in future. Santhanam definitely is a possibility. I doubt whether MS will follow (cienu can alert us if there is any in the offing!) which will be the ultimate disaster for the Rasika community! What is the fate of the existing archives? Do we know they are legal? There are many such questions. Do discuss any positive actions that Rasikas can take collectively. Keep in mind the Rasika community of the future generations (let us not be smug stating that " I am happy! I have my collections!). There are implications for the future of CM itself!

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 15 Jul 2010, 19:24

At this moment I just want to thank each and every person who has made the recordings of ariyakudi, musiri, semmangudi, gnb, brinda-muktha, mmi, ramnad krishnan, mss ect. avalible. Thank god that I have access to these...they are treasures in my life!

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 15 Jul 2010, 19:52

Scenario in Cinema Theater:
------------------------------
I go to a movie theater to see the movie Ten commandments

Scene in Cinema :
Quote
Moses: [Moses, to Sethi, after Sethi came to see Moses' directing the city to be built] Pharoah is pleased?
Sethi: Yes. But not with certain accusations, made against you.
Moses: By whom?
Sethi: You raided the temple granaries?
Moses: Yes.
[Rameses puts first weight on weight scale]
Sethi: You gave the grain to the slaves?
Moses: Yes.
[Rameses puts second weight on weight scale]
Rameses: You gave them one day in seven to rest.
Moses: Yes.
[Rameses puts third weight on weight scale, and scale lowered, with three weight added together]
Sethi: Did you do all this, to gain their favor?
Moses: [Moses got a brick and puts it on opposite side of Rameses' weight of accusations, then said] A city is made of brick, Pharoah. The strong make many. The weak make few. The dead make none. So much for accusations.
unquote
You would have been struck by the last statement of Moses in the current context

For God's sake let us not compare the viewing of Ten Commandments- where the copyright line scrolls through in the first few minutes - with sitting through a Concert

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 15 Jul 2010, 20:05

I repeat my suggestion about sending an email to TMK and VS by either or both VVK and MKR from this group as to their assessment of the situation. They can mention the consensus (if they identify one) of this group and seek an amicable settlement of the controversy. If the communication is free from any animosity but only points out the legal, ethical, and moral issues in this matter, they will surely respond. The communication should point out the need for harmony in the music community--performers, organizers, and rasikas. Without the last of the trio, the first two will vanish pronto.
PS: I sent a simple communication to one of them and I got a reply soon after.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 15 Jul 2010, 20:15

Rasika911 wrote: In fact a bigger problem than rasikas recording concerts is sites like musicindiaonline. the new site has uploaded all commercial albums and made it avalible for free. this is a much bigger problem!

I don't see any problem with this. Musicindiaonline.com, raaga.com and other sites function like radio stations. Yes, it is free to the listeners just like the radio listeners of the past and present. But they pay a royalty to the recording companies for the right to webcast the songs. It is actually a revenue producer for the companies and the singers. The sites make money from the advertisers on their sites. It is a great money-moving mechansim.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 15 Jul 2010, 21:08

mahakavi - that was a good move. Instead of wining and gripping, you took some proactive steps. Thank you.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 15 Jul 2010, 21:17

Dear Mahakavi,
I have thought about your suggestion that I write to these artists on this subject. I have come to the conclusion that I CANNOT represent the views of this forum as I DO NOT agree with many of the opinions expressed. Also I have learnt that the BEST WAY to make the views known & be constructive is to directly contact them & not publicise such contacts publicly. In this instance I FEEL my time is better spent involving myself with the Golden Age Masters & see if I can contribute towards a better understanding of their greatness.....I thank you for considering me as a possible person to straighten out this mess which is equivalent to straightening out the twisted tail of a dog with all the implications-"NOY VALAI SARI PANDRADHU MUDIATHA KARIYAM;-......VKV

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Jul 2010, 21:29

cmlover wrote:Let us not vent at TMK and VS....

I fear that you are 140 posts too late with that request!

There are many others who do not want their concerts surreptitiosly recorded. BJ for one. We know now that GNB cannot be shared freely any more. I wonder the legal heirs of SSI will take any action in future. Santhanam definitely is a possibility. I doubt whether MS will follow (cienu can alert us if there is any in the offing!) which will be the ultimate disaster for the Rasika community! What is the fate of the existing archives? Do we know they are legal? There are many such questions. Do discuss any positive actions that Rasikas can take collectively. Keep in mind the Rasika community of the future generations (let us not be smug stating that " I am happy! I have my collections!). There are implications for the future of CM itself!

My personal view and suggestion (I am not a lawyer of any kind) is that it is not the possession of the material that constitutes the breach of copyright, but the publishing (sharing of it).

Also, words like "illegal" and "punishment" are bandied around is if some kind of crime is involved. I think that it is a matter of civil law, and nothing to do with crime. --- which may be of some comfort to TMK, as we are often hearing of police refusing to register FIRs for theft, murder and rape, let alone the piffling matter of a recording of one of his songs! The lawyers, of course, go on working as long as they get paid. How much would TMK like to invest in this?

(Initials corrected)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Jul 2010, 21:38

But they pay a royalty to the recording companies for the right to webcast the songs.

mk, do you know if MIO type web sites pay royalties to the recording companies? Just curious.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 15 Jul 2010, 21:41

Better late than never, continuing to rant and rave is not the solution. Mahakavi took some practive steps and like wise other concert goers can take steps to address the points needing redressal.