T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recording

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Jul 2010, 21:46

VK RAMAN wrote:Better late than never, continuing to rant and rave is not the solution.

Yes, that is true. probably all has been said that can be said, and that is when we go off-topic and engage in general mud-slinging.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 15 Jul 2010, 22:42

Nick, a couple of posts back, I think you are referring to TMK rather than TNK. It's a typo I know, but better to change it IMO.

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 15 Jul 2010, 23:15

cmlover wrote:I doubt whether MS will follow (cienu can alert us if there is any in the offing!) which will be the ultimate disaster for the Rasika community!

I went through the discussion and I couldn't find if cienu has answered this question. At least from what I know of, MS recordings from her USA tour of 1966 and 1977 cannot be shared as RPG-HMV has purchased the rights to digitize and sell these recordings. They have already released the album Naada Sudhaa Rasaa with recordings from her coast-to-coast USA tour. I think RPG-HMV have also bought the rights for digitize and sell the recordings from the Madras Music Academy. I'm sure Sri Krishna Gana Sabha is making efforts to release its recordings. I do not know of other sabhas and recording agencies. Still, except for AIR and DD recordings, which are running on TAX PAYERS MONEY, IMHO we have no right to copy or record any of these recordings. Again, even if record AIR and DD concerts, we can't sell them. Even AIR and DD, having commercial interests, have now released the recordings. Cienu can confirm all of this.

bhavarasa · Post by **bhavarasa** » 15 Jul 2010, 23:37

Accompanying artists (RKS or AP) would dare not say anything against TMK or VS. It'd be like biting the hand that feeds them. It would be tantamount to professional suicide.

I wish more artists would come out and comment on this (and I mean genuine comments, unlike the fake ones we saw from RKS & AP).

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Jul 2010, 00:20

MaheshS wrote:Nick, a couple of posts back, I think you are referring to TMK rather than TNK. It's a typo I know, but better to change it IMO.

Thank you very much: corrections made.

I guess it just shows that I would rather be thinking about one of my favourite artists!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 16 Jul 2010, 00:58

They can mention the consensus (if they identify one) of this group and seek an amicable settlement of the controversy.

Whoa! Just a minute!
1. Who raked up this so-called 'controversy'?
2. I would prefer that couple of people, however well-intentioned, didn't speak for all rasikas.
3. Finally, the fact that the 'real' RKS and Arun Prakash have responded at the Express site is a sure indication that TMK and VS are aware of the responses, both there and on this forum. If they choose not to respond for whatever reason, that is their decision.
Let's not approach them with vettalai-paaku, white flag etc. They threw the mud in the first place, let them clean it up.

That is, if they have the decency to do it.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Jul 2010, 01:09

vasanthakokilam wrote: mk, do you know if MIO type web sites pay royalties to the recording companies? Just curious.

vk:
MIO is a long-running website containing a myriad of songs of lot of musicians. I guess they must be paying the recording companies by track count or click count. If not the recording companies would have been on their backs long ago not only to extract their "pound of flesh" but also shut them down if they didn't. It is easy to trace the owners of these web outfits from the domain license arrangement. Perhaps there were some outfits which did it illegally and they were closed down. Perhaps some sites were closed either voluntarily due to disagreement over payments or non-payment of royalty.

bhavarasa · Post by **bhavarasa** » 16 Jul 2010, 01:29

A case was brought against musicindiaonline.com by Charsur for webcasting Charsur's CD productions.

I'm not sure if other producers joined in against mio in that case as well. But, in any case, mio stopped webcasting any of Charsur's albums thereafter.

I see mio hosting albums from other studios though and with full pictures of said albums. I can only imagine that they are paying some kind of fee back to the studio OR that the studio considers mio as a marketing campaign, given that the stream from mio is of a very poor quality (16 or 32 kbps only - whereas cd quality is >=192kbps) and that once rasikas have listened to these recordings, they want to go out and get the real thing (the CD itself).

If the artists were to encourage sharing of these "illegal" recordings, maybe it would attract rasikas to dish out the few $ for the higher quality CD or digital track.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Jul 2010, 01:35

CD quality is 1,411 kbps.

I think. Numbers and me don't go too well together!

bhavarasa · Post by **bhavarasa** » 16 Jul 2010, 02:02

Nick H wrote:CD quality is 1,411 kbps.

I think. Numbers and me don't go too well together!

Nick, 1,411kbps is uncompressed. 192kbps is compressed and is comparable to 1,411 uncompressed if I'm not mistaken. So an MP3 (or streaming) at 192kbps is comparable to a CD track at 1,411 in terms of audio quality.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Jul 2010, 03:24

Mahakavi,
If you have heard from one of the duo, what does he say? Surely, there is no copyright issue in making it public, right?
I am merely asking because we might understand why rasikas are seen by them (at least, in their nightmares) as pirates and pickpockets.
After all, along with their vidvat, voice and immense talents, we rasikas should be deemed their assets too.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Jul 2010, 03:37

mahakavi wrote: I don't see any problem with this. Musicindiaonline.com, raaga.com and other sites function like radio stations. Yes, it is free to the listeners just like the radio listeners of the past and present. But they pay a royalty to the recording companies for the right to webcast the songs. It is actually a revenue producer for the companies and the singers. The sites make money from the advertisers on their sites. It is a great money-moving mechansim.

MK
The simple answer is you don't know!
Rest is inferential. Charsur did sue them for illegal broadcasts.
If they are doing it legally they would prominantly announce it very clearly on their site which they have not done!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Jul 2010, 03:42

Here is a suggestion.
Let Subramanian draft a letter to which we can all make input. All those interested, in this Forum can add their signature to it. We can send it to TMK/VS and await a response.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Jul 2010, 03:57

cmlover wrote: MK
The simple answer is you don't know!
Rest is inferential. Charsur did sue them for illegal broadcasts.
If they are doing it legally they would prominantly announce it very clearly on their site which they have not done!

It is inference alright. But the very fact MIO existed and still exists for a long time indicates they have some legitimacy. Perhaps with Charsur they have had a fallout. YOU don't know either the details of the lawsuit. You only go by what was generally known. Why only Charsur alone filed a lawsuit? What about others? MIO still has a whole bunch of commercially available music.
Not everybody announces their legitimacy because by default it is assumed so unless proved otherwise.
Do you announce that you are a bona fide person when you post here? I assume you are one!

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Jul 2010, 04:00

cmlover wrote:Here is a suggestion.
Let Subramanian draft a letter to which we can all make input. All those interested, in this Forum can add their signature to it. We can send it to TMK/VS and await a response.

Vetoed! Since I did not mention your name you need not mention my name here.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Jul 2010, 04:07

arasi wrote:Mahakavi,
If you have heard from one of the duo, what does he say? Surely, there is no copyright issue in making it public, right?
I am merely asking because we might understand why rasikas are seen by them (at least, in their nightmares) as pirates and pickpockets.
After all, along with their vidvat, voice and immense talents, we rasikas should be deemed their assets too.

Sorry, it is a privileged communication. It is not relevant to the copyright issues we are dealing with here. Otherwise I would have revealed the contents. I just indicated that to show that they would respond to a good-faith communication. VKV has already indicated his reluctance to do so.

PS: By the way my communication with that individual made him aware of what is going on here at this forum on this subject, if he was not already aware of it.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Jul 2010, 04:16

But the very fact MIO existed and still exists for a long time indicates they have some legitimacy

If that is what you used to infer that they are paying royalties to the record companies, you may want to state that with a 99% reduction in confidence

I thought you may know some other specific info. That is fine, now I know.

The charsur case showed that MIO did not ask Charsur for permission and Charsur decided to sue. From talking to Charsur, it is not a fall out of any negotiations, Charsur just could not even get on a communication/conversation channel with them to work this out so they sued to remove their albums from MIO.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Jul 2010, 04:29

vk:
So you talked to Charsur and heard their side of the story. Fine. There are two sides to every story. Did you talk to MIO as to their side? Without that part no conclusion can be made as to what really happened. Even after that it will be just two viewpoints.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Jul 2010, 04:31

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Jul 2010, 04:37

MK
Sorry for suggesting you by name! I thought we should jointly write them using our real identity. As Rasikas we do have a stake. Since the origial suggestion came from you I picked you as I have immense confidence in your logical drafting ability

suma · Post by **suma** » 16 Jul 2010, 06:30

ragam-talam wrote:They can mention the consensus (if they identify one) of this group and seek an amicable settlement of the controversy.
Whoa! Just a minute!
1. Who raked up this so-called 'controversy'?
2. I would prefer that couple of people, however well-intentioned, didn't speak for all rasikas.
3. Finally, the fact that the 'real' RKS and Arun Prakash have responded at the Express site is a sure indication that TMK and VS are aware of the responses, both there and on this forum. If they choose not to respond for whatever reason, that is their decision.
Let's not approach them with vettalai-paaku, white flag etc. They threw the mud in the first place, let them clean it up.

That is, if they have the decency to do it.

I agree. Why should we bother. We have a ton of other good artists around. We can go to Ranjani Gayatri, Sanjay Subramaniam etc. We can go to concerts where we feel warm and welcomed. After all we go there for divine bliss and not to get into controversies.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Jul 2010, 07:10

Did you notice that the spelling of 'evesdrop' has since been corrected!

Looks like the authors are following our discussions !

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Jul 2010, 07:23

Yes, I noticed it just now. That was one point of my communication with one of the duo on the 11th of July.
I tried to post a comment at the express buzz article site. Even after 5 or 6 attempts, I am not successful. Despite entering the security code properly it comes back saying "mismatch". Two times the message came as "your comment was posted" but not really posted. I have had similar issues with some of the online magazine/newspaper sites in India. I had a good success rate with posting comments only in Times of India website.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Jul 2010, 08:03

Divine, be mine, a rasika said--
Refined affair, another said, takes us
Away from the daily strife, oh yes!
Sheer entertainment, another exclaimed,
Yes, I like this, it's great, this CM!

As for them,
Practitioners of CM,
Some had an idea--
They put music on hold
And went
m
i
n
i
n
g
for gold--

After all, the saintly T had sung about it!
They knew that he, along with the rest
Used so many words in so many ways,
All meaning gold, they knew those words!
kanaka? hema, nidhi? whatever the other
Words meant, these alone stood out,
Gleaming!

When singers of a mere silver screen
Were showered with the thing, unasked--
We, singing the saint's words get nada?
So, they went mining, minding their business,
leaving behind the music which was theirs--

Wish they would succeed, but you see,
They forgot one vital source of sustenance
To take with them--Their
R
A
S
I
K
A
S

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 16 Jul 2010, 08:55

mahakavi wrote:Yes, I noticed it just now. That was one point of my communication with one of the duo on the 11th of July.
I tried to post a comment at the express buzz article site. Even after 5 or 6 attempts, I am not successful. Despite entering the security code properly it comes back saying "mismatch". Two times the message came as "your comment was posted" but not really posted. I have had similar issues with some of the online magazine/newspaper sites in India. I had a good success rate with posting comments only in Times of India website.

mahakavi,
Your views are posted now in Indian Express.

Balummi · Post by **Balummi** » 16 Jul 2010, 11:55

After going through all these discussions about recording of Concerts , I have realised that the situation some 60 years ago was entirely different than it is now. In those days the recordings were made using large wire / spool recorders very, inconvenient to handle, and the recordings reached barely a very few people. Whereas the presentday concerts can be recorded and uploaded immediately and they can be downloaded by everybody. In such a situation naturally people would be reluctant to visit concert Halls . Unless TMK & VS are like Nagaswamy Bhagavathar whom acording to MMI never repeats kritis even for a second time they can only expect dwindling audience. Is modern technology a bane or a boon? I have no answer.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Jul 2010, 13:27

What you say about the difference in both technology and in access to it is absolutely true, and the greater part of that change has occurred in the last decade or two, but I continue to dispute that there is a damaging effect on the artists.

Just one example... and its me... a person who is more than internet-savy: if I am in my house, I am not far from a computer with a browser open! Although I do not download much music, that which I do download in no way affects my concert attendance.

The copying and distribution of commercially-released music can perhaps be equated to loss of CD sales. I say "perhaps" because there are even artists who claim that, for them, it does not.

Whilst I would never go to the cinema to watch a film I could watch at home, that is largely because I have never much liked cinemas, whereas I have always loved the concert hall. Live music is, and always will be, a different experience to recorded music, even when the recording is of a live concert. Don't we all feel that there is nothing to compare with the concert experience? Not only the prime reason of being face to face with our artists --- but there is the social side of meeting our friends too. Recorded music of any kind, from any source, paid for or free, will never put me off the concert experience.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 16 Jul 2010, 13:47

I agree with Nick. In my case, I ended up attending concerts of several artistes based on audio clips of theirs that were shared with me. In fact, I would argue that private recordings in most cases increase the publicity and potential CD sales for artistes.
And recorded music can never be a subtitute for the real thing, esp in the context of CM. Carnatic music being manodharma-laden, any serious rasika would love to attend a live concert, rather than just listen to one of those 'studio' recordings. My complaint is that most of the CDs available out in the marketplace are mediocre, packed with huge number of items devoid of manodharma music. (there are exceptions, of course.) They seem to be directed more at the 'light' listener.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 16 Jul 2010, 14:36

My complaint is that most of the CDs available out in the marketplace are mediocre

Not necessarily . Navras Records changed things by listening to the pangs of a rasika. In recent years Swathi has made such a difference . Say a silent prayer in tribute for the likes of Kalavardhini who have been the first to acknowedge the need to showcase lesser known names .
Not convinced ? Drop in at karnatic Music store and You will find kalavardhini Cds at throwaway price of Rs 10 !!!
Names like Panthula, Vardhini , Jayaprada flute and so many more deserving artists.
If you are not careful you may be stepping on some of those cds hastily dumped in the lower shelves
Situation is quite complex with the music Companies having to sell and sell big time.
I find it strange that all those chaps who appear here to sell their labels are quiet on this subject

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 Jul 2010, 16:23

Arasi - priceless...you should send that to the Express...

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 16 Jul 2010, 16:31

arasi wrote:
After all, the saintly T had sung about it!
They knew that he, along with the rest
Used so many words in so many ways,
All meaning gold, they knew those words!
kanaka? hema, nidhi? whatever the other
Words meant, these alone stood out,
Gleaming!

So true . That is why ' Cheque Nee RAJA ' is a favourite with them.
After all the inner feeling (cheque) gets full expression or shall I say outpouring.

ganeshkant · Post by **ganeshkant** » 16 Jul 2010, 17:53

I know I' m joining pretty late but what I register here will throw much light on the musicians of yore too have behaved in a way like the artists in discussion.

The following was narrated by Mr.Janakiraman,younger brother of late Shri.Thiruvenkadu Jeyaraman.Once he went to his brother's concert with a recorder and the moment he swiched it on,The violinist objected to recording the concert and mercilessly told him "If U want U may record ur brother's but not mine" .Not only Mr.Janakiraman but also his brother felt humiliated neverthless TJR apologised to the violinist and pacified him.

Why did the violinist do that and for what good ? It is only a testimonial of the artist's. mountain size ego and mustard size mind.

So,the moral of the story is that there always will be good and bad.Take that into cognizance and keep attending concerts; U may not like the ways of a particular artist but for that sake why should you be deprived of the soulful music coming from him/her?Let the artists be happy with their ego but we,the rasikas be not in tune with them this time around.

( Mod note: edited the name of the violinist. It is better to keep it general so the conversation stays on topic )

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 16 Jul 2010, 18:20

mountain size ego and mustard size mind - I like that expression.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Jul 2010, 18:50

Here it is for our information

In the interest of fairplay, the newspaper should publish a counterpoint to the issue of copyright raised in this article. All previous posters who are familiar with the copyright details should pick up the courage to write one such article rather than just denouncing the pair. The duo may genuinely feel that their finances are at stake through bootlegging of their concerts transmitted on the web. I am sure they are not unaware of the bad publicity they created for themselves although they may say they are acting on principle.
By Dr. Sethuraman Subramanian

...a very constructive suggestion. Even some knowledgeable among us should pen a counterpoint article. IE certainly would give equal time and we can have a constructive debate with the authors..

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Jul 2010, 19:05

mountain size mamatA and mustard size mind ---- makes better alliteration

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Jul 2010, 19:11

>Why did the violinist do that and for what good ? It is only a testimonial of the artist's. mountain size ego and mustard size mind.

I am not sure if this episode is necessarily relevant to this topic. ( the arrogant manner in which the violinist expressed that leaves a lot to be desired, but that is a different topic ). Quite a few people do not like their speeches and music to be recorded for completely different reasons from the ones we are discussing in this topic. And we should not necessarily relate it to the size of the ego, mind, etc.. There are possibly other psychological reasons which we need not go into here. As a distant example, the principal of a big engineering college absolutely refused when some one wanted to record his remarks during a celebratory gathering. This was nothing to do with permissions. He was just not psychologically comfortable with that. On the humorous side, we speculated that he did no want his bad speeches to haunt him later on....

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Jul 2010, 19:29

What is the role of VS here!
He has always objected to recording his concerts - not that any would

Compared to TMK in vidvat or performance his standing in CM is quite low!
His brother has more talent than him IMHO...
(edited)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Jul 2010, 19:52

VK,
Not all the old day musicians were noble like MMI. Some craved the generosity of the patron but got scrooge-like when it came to sharing what they got with their accompanists. The times were different from the materialistic yearnings of this generation too So, they didn't throw up tantrums (there were exceptions!) when things interfered with the flow of the good old rupee (as with all foreign currency too, today).
Yes, what you say about the violinist is true--as with some folks not wanting to be in a photograph. He might have thought: what if I play a phrase badly (perfectionist) and it would stay even after I have played it for others to hear? After all, the machine was both awe-inspiring and intimidating when it appeared. Then there was the old superstition that
your life span would be curtailed with every picture taken of you! The same with the voice-catcher?
It is also possible that the violinist could have thought, I only play for the sabha and the audience, not for an individual who is not paying me

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Jul 2010, 19:55

CML,
I beg to differ here with you. VS's vidvat is fine by me. When it comes to popularity, yes, he does not have as many fans as TMK.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 16 Jul 2010, 19:57

First of all, there is no point in comparing recent musicians with that of the old. The audience,
sabha's, technology etc etc have all has been changed. Now a days *most* of the audience have a phone or
some such device with which they can record a concert, which was not present before.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Now a days there are three different ways of income for a performer

1. Live Concerts or singing a few pieces, as in AIR
2. Teaching
3. Audio / Video sales of either live or recorded pieces.

The two mentioned artists think that their 3rd form of income is reduced due to bootlegging. Fair enough.

They are saying, if you want to listen to us live, come to our concerts. If you want to listen to
us at home, please buy authorised recordings. If you want to learn please contact us.

Again, I repeat, there is absolutely NO point saying "Andha kalathula ....". Times are different.

Having said all this, the manner in which they come across with regards to Illegalness etc etc is a bit
crass. I would have expected a coherent plea to rasikas with their request stating the reasons behind it.

Even now there are musicians who allow people to record in the same manner some people don't charge for
teaching but some do. These are rather exceptions than the rule in my opinion.

venkatpv · Post by **venkatpv** » 16 Jul 2010, 20:14

cmlover wrote:What is the role of VS here!
He has always objected to recording his concerts - not that any would
Compared to TMK in vidvat or performance his standing in CM is quite low!
His brother has more talent than him IMHO...

cml,
that was utterly disgraceful...

whom am i supposed to report this to? the "moderator"?

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 16 Jul 2010, 20:25

I tend to agree with MaheshS. The concerned artists wanted to convey a message but communicated it wrongly, hurting sentiments of rasikas. Can we think more from their perspective? It is quite possible that these artists have signed contracts with some sponsors or recording companies, and could be clauses like there can't be any personal recordings etc. In this commercial world, any of type of contracts, endorsements are possible for money sake. The commercial part could be very complicated, we don't know. Hope someone will explain on these lines.....

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 16 Jul 2010, 20:27

CML, you must be kidding. How much of VS have you heard? Oh wait, no private recordings, few live concerts where you live, and few commercial CDs of him available.

Anyway, VS lacks nothing in 'vidwath' and I agree with Ganesh that we should at the end of the day separate the art from the artiste. Despite this ill-conceived venting and whining from VS, I will continue to attend his concerts. His music is still pristine.

As for artistes with significantly lower standing, look no further than Sikkil Gurucharan who wanted even AIR relays of his concerts deleted from Sangeethapriya some time back. At this stage in his career, should he not want to attract more rasikas? Aren't free online recordings one way to achieve this?

From what I've heard, yesteryear vidwans often behaved like TMK-VS, though it may not have been about illegal recordings. So I find all this 'back in the day, they really took nidhi chAla sukhama to heart' generalisations about yesteryear greats a bit difficult to digest.

But the bottom line of this discussion to me is still: (1) TMK and VS have not made any credible case for their claim that private recordings reduce their income substantially, and (2) the tone taken by people in admonishing others matters. Along with the content - or lack thereof - of TMK and VS's tirade, the tone they adopt is very condescending, aggressive, and insulting. In return, they have incurred their share of rasikas' wrath. This could have been avoided by a sincere willingness to engage their own patrons (yes, let them not forget that it is we who are their source of income still). Their adopting a moral pedestal didn't work either with all these skeletons being wrenched from their abundantly full closets, making them look like utterly foolish hypocrites.

Arasi, I like your poem, but please don't submit it to the Express like Ravi suggested! They clearly only publish tripe.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 16 Jul 2010, 20:33

I don't know, these "illegal" recordings could affect sales of recorded Carnatic music either way.

These illegal recordings tend to be terrible in sound quality, worse indeed than live listening in an accoustically challenged hall.

On the other hand, the "legal" recordings are excessively rehearsed -- and often sickeningly heavily orchestrated -- AND really, REALLY costly, most of the times. I suppose this is because so few people buy them (unless they're marketed with some "devotional" theme). So few people buy them partly because they get free, TOTALLY free music in sabhas.

It will be lovely to have good-quality recordings of concert music. In some reviews of concerts held in the USA it was mentioned that audience members get to listen to the concert live and also get a recording of the concert made by the organisers themselves for the ticket fee. I think this is a really good idea.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Jul 2010, 20:39

Interesting thread and of course a very important issue. Here are my 2 (usual, rambling) cents.

IMO the fundamental question is: Does sharing of a unauthorized recording of a concert that is NOT commercialized - or lets say would not commercialized affect sale of commercial recordings of the artist?

This is besides the legality aspect. I guess from what I read here, legally there is leeway for making a *personal*l recording. But does it address "Can I also upload on xyz site so that many others whom I never met can also get it"? Note that this is sort of like sharing it with my personal circle - but obviously much more. Considering that it is a 1957 act, I would say it would have to be agnostic about it.

I think quoting nidhicalasukhama (however valid from a idealistic point of view) etc is grandstanding but that is me. I sometimes think we rasikas want all performers to be like saint composers and sing for our enjoyment/nourishment but without using the art for monetary purposes (or use only with what we think is reasonable - which of course varies from person to person).We want good music from people who should produce it with the purest of hearts and noblest of minds, while we all feel have no need to do so because we are just consumers of if. If I had a dollar for every time a rasika quoted nidhicalasukhama or cakkani raja, I would say I would be richer than Bill Gates

(yes, I see the irony of using money in this example

).

Getting back to my main point, I think the jury is out on whether unauthorized recordings on non-commercial performances adversely affect the sale of commercial releases. To me it isn't clearcut one way or other.
(a) There are cases where it certainly helps the artist i.e. people saying I heard that recording. He/she is awesome. Let me attend his/her concert, let me buy his/her CDS"
(b) There are many people who buy CDS but still attend pay to attend concerts of the same artists - repeatedly
(c) There are also people who buy CDS regularly in spite of the fact they are edited, and in spite of the fact they attend concerts of these artists, and also have their concert recordings.
(d) But there are also certainly cases where people may say "i already have 30 concert recordings of this artist, I dont need to shelling out 300Rs or $10 for a CD that is an edited version.
(e) In fact there ARE (many, many) people who say "Why are you paying for it? Don't buy it. I have it. Let me make a copy and give it to you".

So You have a complicated mix - some positive, some neutral, and some negative. Is it a net negative - it is very hard to say for sure. I guess thats why people try to approach it legally where they think irrespective of the mix there ought to be a clear definition of what is legally right vs. legally wrong. But even in western countries, it is not as clear cut.

BTW, there was a recent interview with the ex-manager of Pink Floyd (a enormously successful British Band), where he said something to the effect that all the hullabulla about fighting piracy and free sharing is a big waste if time because the industry has lost to technology and there is no point fighting technology which has really leapfrogged over the recording industry big time - mainly because of the recording industry's unwillingness to acknowledge reality. Thus he felt that the only course of action is to use the new technology to reinvent your industry. And he is talking about sharing of commercially released albums! In CM, the issue is more about the overwhelming # of concerts (>90%? > 95%) which NEVER get commercially released. But reinventing the industry - that is hard work - recording industry is still lamenting about the loss of that low hanging fruit (charing $13 for a CD which has 2 songs that a listener would really like).

Arun

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Jul 2010, 20:49

>>They are saying, if you want to listen to us live, come to our concerts. If you want to listen to
us at home, please buy authorised recordings. If you want to learn please contact us.<<
MaheshS;
This is exactly my point too. The duo feels their CD sales are affected negatively through the transmission of "illegal" recording. The excuse "the commercially available CDs are edited while I like raw recording of live concerts" is baloney. If you want recorded music buy their CDs and not download illegally transmitted recordings. By buying the CDs you are supporting the artiste, the owner and employees of the studio, and the retail shops who are all serving the music community in one way or the other.

Let me state my point clearly. I was annoyed at the duo when they muzzled down one of the rasikas by forcing him to submit an apology for such a minor infraction (done innocently of course--if that rasika did not congratulate the musician for a job well done, the situation wouldn't have arisen at all). But that is a past story and in my mind I could not "forgive" the duo. But to hold the grudge incessantly is not in the mould of a good rasika. TiruvaLLuvar's maxim. "innA seydArai oRuttal avar nANa nannayam seydu viDal" (the best way to punish somebody who harmed you is to shame them by doing some good to them). This time they made a request to the rasikas (in the express buzz article). So let us be generous and accept it. Regarding the copyright part, if they are in the wrong it must be pointed out.

Even if one records for one's own pleasure and does not transmit the recording, the duo will not feel comfortable. They will always attribute the declining sales of their CDs to a possible transmission of such recordings. Some rasikas are pack-rats (they will hoard any bit of music in their hard drives----whether they hear it later or not is another question). When free recorded music (of live concerts) is available many would not buy the commercial albums.

The message is clear. The duo requests that their concerts not be recorded even for private listening. Let us honor that request. Much water has flown under the bridge during these discussions. Is a continuing polemic worth it? Even assuming so, do we want to listen to such music knowing that it incurs the displeasure of the artiste? There is no dearth of archived CM of yesteryear musicians. The musicians of today are always compared less favorably to those of the past. I personally would give the duo a break if they make a request not to record. To mollify the "wounded" rasikas, the duo can expunge their copyright claims and make it an honest request only.
If they don't do it, then I sense that some folks are planning seriously to challenge the copyright claim in the courts (by confronting the artiste during a live concert by recording their concert in full view of the artiste). A compromise is what is needed now.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 16 Jul 2010, 20:55

Arun -

Peter Jenner was the ex-manager of Pink Floyd who gave that interview. He did not say that about recordings of live music. He was talking about released albums getting ripped and copied.

TMK and VS are speaking about un-authorised people recording concerts while they are performing.

While the means [method/words] they used antagonised a lot of people, what they intended to convey seems a very valid point.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Jul 2010, 20:59

Coming about reinventing the industry - here is a thought.

First of all, in terms of "purchasable music on media", I think the big problem is there is a huge gap between what many consumers want and what the producers can deliver. People want as many (unedited) concert recordings as possible of their favorite artists, but you get a insignificant fraction of that available. And no attempt (except Charsur's recent attempt of selling concerts online) is made to bridge the gap. Most producers are still saying "you must consume only what I produce. Else you will be punished". Consumers are saying "there is so much more out there which you can offer me". This of course is not a revelation - most of us know this.

Perhaps one "inefficiency" is the presence of sabhas in business cycle. While they are ideal for the old way (where only form of consumption is live music), perhaps they are not so for the "new way". But they are still the big and powerful middle-man through which that cherished potential product (i.e. concerts) is conveyed from the producer to the consumer. Concert recordings is what many rasikas want, and 99% of them are done in sabhas which so far have shown zero inclination to come even to the 20th century

!

Some possibilities:

1. Now one possibility is for a team of musicians to do full fledged private concert recordings and release it digitally.
2. Another is to do a business-sponsored, or even self-financed concert recordings and charge for entrance, and also webcast (have subscription or pay-per-view), as well as release digitally.
3. If somehow musicians can get into contracts with sabhas to record and even webcast their concerts to people who can get them via subscription, perhaps that can result in more satisfied stakeholders on either side?

Now, you still wont prevent piracy i.e. you will still have people telling their friends "Don't subscribe and waste money. I am already subscribed. I will . I will make a copy and give it to you". But if most your concerts are commercially released this way, you will have a much firmer legal footing to go after sites which make it available. Sites like sangeethapriya and rasikas.org would also have easier time policing their members and preventing them from uploading this, and hopefully all sites would cooperate more.

Right now sabhas hold pretty much all the trump cards - all of us (are forced to) need them - and I guess they have not much incentive in participating in bridging this gap

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Jul 2010, 21:01

MaheshS wrote:Arun -

Peter Jenner was the ex-manager of Pink Floyd who gave that interview. He did not say that about recordings of live music. He was talking about released albums getting ripped and copied.

TMK and VS are speaking about un-authorised people recording concerts while they are performing.

While the means [method/words] they used antagonised a lot of people, what they intended to convey seems a very valid point.

Yes. Jenner was talking about released music. I noted that as well.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Jul 2010, 21:11

arasi wrote:CML,
I beg to differ here with you. VS's vidvat is fine by me. When it comes to popularity, yes, he does not have as many fans as TMK.

It's more than fine with me. I'd describe him as as one of the great no-fuss, no-drama, pure music performers of his generation. A musician to have a respectful and appreciative following, but probably not a huge fan base.

He has given one of our rasikas-group concerts. Cool and company did not choose those performers lightly.

pattamaa wrote: It is quite possible that these artists have signed contracts with some sponsors or recording companies, and could be clauses like there can't be any personal recordings etc. In this commercial world, any of type of contracts, endorsements are possible for money sake. The commercial part could be very complicated, we don't know. .....

If that is the case then they can, simply say so. Many western artists have been left even without the rights to their own performances by contracts to record companies, sometimes very unfairly.