T M Krishna and Vijay Siva Speak Against Concert Recording

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Jul 2010, 21:29

That was my Red Herring

No offence meant...
Certainly I respect the views of Arasi and Nick and Bilahari (and of course Cool)!
I have never heard him in person but his commercial recordings are nothing great to talk about!
Recently found that he was greatly attracted to 'Almighty Dollar'

Perhaps that is what attracts him to TMK!
..birds of a feather

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 16 Jul 2010, 21:45

CML, I think these commercialized recordings are usually excessively rehearsed, and often are built around some "devotional" themes to manage some saleability. One would be very ill-advised to judge a Carnatic musician by their commercial recordings.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Jul 2010, 21:51

One would be very ill-advised to judge a Carnatic musician by their commercial recordings.

Isn't it rather foolish of the musicians that should be the case?

Or is it the opposite, a case of the commercial necessity of committing to plastic that which will sell. and perhaps to a different public than the stage content?

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 16 Jul 2010, 21:59

While on this topic, let me share an anecdote that may have some bearing here...
Years ago, I attended a concert of Nedunuri-garu. I was sitting in the front row, and as is my usual practice, was recording the concert using my small cassette recorder.*
It was an inspired concert, and the artiste was in excellent form. At the end of the concert, some of us went up to congratulate him and take his blessings. He kept saying, "I feel couple of my items came out very well today. I wish someone recorded my singing!" And guess what, none of the people there - including the sabha organisers - had recorded the concert!
At this point, I told him that I had. He was so happy, and asked me if I could make a copy for him. I spent the whole night making copies of the 3 cassettes, and delivered them to him the very next day! He thanked me profusely, and I took his blessings again. I also got his autograph on my cassettes. It's a very special concert that I cherish to this day.

* I have always made recordings of concerts I like, and propose to do so in the future also. If the artiste has a problem with that, tough luck. They simply cannot infringe on my fundamental right. The likes of VS/TMK can take a hike.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Jul 2010, 22:02

An old Vijay Siva's Devi Krithis CD I used to have (got stuck in car CD player

many years ago ) was easily one of the top CDS i ever owned - the kAmAkshi varali piece, paradEvata etc were fine classical rendition very typical of Vijay Siva. There is nothing dilute about it. I liked one the early TMK CDs (sarojadaLanEtri as main), as well as his Sri Ramam dual-CD While there are devotional CDs with background music and all and I think they play a very important role in making potential new rasikas take that first step, there are many many CDs which are pretty classical. But what you cannot get is an really expansive or even "adventurous" renditions.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Jul 2010, 22:05

srikant1987 wrote:CML, I think these commercialized recordings are usually excessively rehearsed, and often are built around some "devotional" themes to manage some saleability. One would be very ill-advised to judge a Carnatic musician by their commercial recordings.

Good point!
All the more reason for nice concert recordings be made available (at a cost of course even by the performer himself!) for those of us in remote areas! (which is the focus of this thread..)

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 16 Jul 2010, 22:05

And I wish people would stop referring to recordings made at concerts by rasikas as 'illegal'.
They are not. Please don't get brainwashed by the nonsense that the likes of VS/TMK keep repeating.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Jul 2010, 22:09

R-T
you are inviting for trouble with those confessions!
Have you attended concerts of TMK (or VS) for that matter

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 16 Jul 2010, 22:11

I dont know how Indian laws work but I would think that if you are attending a concert in a sabha, then the sabha has every right to establish in its rules/laws "no unauthorized recording allowed", and thus "personal rights" wouldnt apply at all. I mean they can establish that by attending the concert there you are complying to their standards which says no recording allowed as the owner of premises. But then they probably cant get away with a rule that says "people with certain color/caste arent allowed" (?? - if so, which raises the curious question as which rules are fundamental right which isnt?)

Now if there is no such explicit rule, then I guess basic copyright laws and what is allowable per it come into play.

Arun

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Jul 2010, 23:00

I like Vijaya Siva's singing. He combines well with RKS and JV.I heard him in the Music Academy several years ago in the late afternoon (4PM --6 PM) slot. Recently I heard him in the RTP area of NC, which was also very pleasing. I also have several cassettes and CDs of his. One old double cassette pack I have (with RKS and JV as accompanists) bought for Rs. 64 in 1991, has ParidhAnamichite (bilahari--PSI), JAnakipatE (karaharapriya, PS) and a few miscellaneous pieces. They are all pretty good. He had rather a shrill voice then which has somewhat matured over the years. I still have the pack.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 16 Jul 2010, 23:10

cmlover wrote:you are inviting for trouble with those confessions!

What trouble? I am not one of those thayir-saadam types who jumps when someone asks him to, out of fear. I will make sure the other person jumps, if you get my drift.

Have you attended concerts of TMK (or VS) for that matter

I don't care much for TMK's singing, so haven't listened to him live. I do like VS - he is a very good musician - but haven't recorded his concerts as yet.
Will try to make it a point to record their concerts - very visibly - next time I get the opportunity. Let them try to bully me. To quote Ronald Reagan: "They ain't seen nothin' yet."

On second thoughts, I would rather listen to some of the seniors who are still around...e.g. TRS, SRJ, TSI, RKS, Nedunuri, R Vedavalli, Tanjavur Sankara Iyer, Parassala Ponnammal, etc or some of the more interesting younger artistes, e.g. Bangalore Shankar, Manda Sudharani, Rudrapatnam brothers, et al. It's time better spent. They deliver solid, quality music, without arrogance/gimmicks.
See this thread: http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13513

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 16 Jul 2010, 23:25

When one hears a particular song in a concert and if that rasika is really touched with the song,the longing to hear again and again would be the biggest contribution for commercial cd sales.Even word of mouth of say I am attending a concert,writing a review , then say Arun is reading that recommendation and then buying that cd is less likely in this over proliferation of artists and cds . In a nutshell , the repetition and ownership of our own experience is what we seek and induces us to lighten our wallet.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 16 Jul 2010, 23:36

Didn't DRS have a similar problem to this in this forums? He gave up posting in this forums.

I've listened to VS and TMK live from 1994-1998, since then I have not had the opportunity. I used to buy their recording regularly till the episode when they made humiliated a rasika. I have / will not bother for that reason with these two artists.

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 16 Jul 2010, 23:58

cmlover wrote:What is the role of VS here!
He has always objected to recording his concerts - not that any would
Compared to TMK in vidvat or performance his standing in CM is quite low!
His brother has more talent than him IMHO...
Is this a case of "poovuDan SErnda nArum..."
(you can interpret 'poo' in the western sense too

cmlover: That was one of the stupidest and most inane comments I've read in all the years I've spent on this forum [and yes, I've been here longer than you have]. Your personal tastes are your own, but the way you have expressed your opinion is crass, crude and shamefully juvenile. Your complete lack of aesthetic musical understanding is clearly evident here. This clearly shows: age does not equal wisdom. How sad.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Jul 2010, 00:18

prashant
read post #201
Having heard only his cassettes I have never been impressed unlike you lucky guys at Chennai who hear him personally...
Of course age has nothing to do with wisdom!
...and a warm welcome back to the Forum
..missing you guys for a long time

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 17 Jul 2010, 00:23

cmlover wrote: Of course age has nothing to do with wisdom!

cmlover: In your case, this is definitely true.

How patronizingly patriarchial of you to pass sweeping judgment on a musician despite never having heard him live. Anyone with even a smidgen of understanding of the Carnatic music idiom would understand that it is the live performance that is the true test of a musician. Accumulate some real and significant data before coming to a conclusion!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Jul 2010, 00:27

Of course you have heard HMB, Poochi, koteeswara iyer .... live

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 17 Jul 2010, 00:29

cmlover wrote:prashant
read post #201
Having heard only his cassettes I have never been impressed unlike you lucky guys at Chennai who hear him personally...
Of course age has nothing to do with wisdom!
...and a warm welcome back to the Forum
..missing you guys for a long time

Thanks very much for your welcome back, although your post reminded me of why I continue to be only an occasional visitor to this forum any more, rather than an active participant.

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 17 Jul 2010, 00:30

cmlover wrote:Of course you have heard HMB, Poochi, koteeswara iyer .... live

Can you provide any instance of any time when I have commented [positively or negatively] on these musicians / composers?

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 17 Jul 2010, 00:30

cmlover wrote:Of course you have heard HMB, Poochi, koteeswara iyer .... live

Common CML. You are in a hole and you still keep digging. It is certainly not anything to do with two musicians who are alive and have been performing for more than 10 years at a very high level in carnatic music.

The first post was a cheap, below the belt shot. When people pulled you on it, you started digging a hole and you continue to do so.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Jul 2010, 00:37

OK! I withdraw those comments which I did not make seriously but in a lighter vein!
However I felt bad about VS associating with TMK on this enterprise - could not see anything common except for the love of the glitter of silver! (certainly not a love of CM)

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 17 Jul 2010, 00:43

cmlover wrote:OK! I withdraw those comments which I did not make seriously but in a lighter vein!
However I felt bad about VS associating with TMK on this enterprise - could not see anything common except for the love of the glitter of silver!

Bah! Humbug! If people did not call you out vehemently on these silly comments, you would happily still be playing rasikas.org arsonist with your Let's-pass-inane comments-no-consequence-since-I'm-anonymous' game. Please, try to behave in a manner that befits your age and [perceived] stature.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Jul 2010, 00:51

Thanks for the advice!
Now seriously can I take some lessons from you on 'CM appreciation'! Perhaps CM101...

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 17 Jul 2010, 00:56

cmlover wrote:Thanks for the advice!
Now seriously can I take some lessons from you on 'CM appreciation'! Perhaps CM101...

Sure! Feel free to contact me anytime - my name and email are both on my profile... Until then, happy posting!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 17 Jul 2010, 00:57

These days you can find a good selection of concert recording of artistes on youtube.
E.g. this soulful Kannada by Shri Vijay Siva: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx0TRzelaLM

The neraval and swaras are top-class in part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-YRmQQskb0
(I especially also like Lalgudi Viji's violin in this - together they take you to a different world.)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Jul 2010, 01:22

Thx prasant! will take you up on that when you and I can get some time!

Now R-T also listen to
http://sangeethamshare.org/tvg/UPLOADS- ... hidhar.mp3

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 17 Jul 2010, 01:48

prashant - good to see you back after a long time. Came with a bang "Please, try to behave in a manner that befits your age and [perceived] stature" Wow

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Jul 2010, 01:59

I shot an arrow into the air
It fell to earth I knew not where.. (Wordsworth0

I shot a message into the Forum
It brought missing folks -(at least ) some

Now I must work on the strategy of getting Cool and DRS back too

...and of course Vijay!

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Jul 2010, 02:00

Shall we get back on track here please?
The ungraceful remark, the attacks on that, and the retraction of the unfortunate remark have been made. We can close that subject and make some constructive remarks on the issue at hand.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Jul 2010, 02:02

You start !

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 17 Jul 2010, 02:03

This Todi Swarajati was a welcome relief, thanks to the person who "recorded" it and you tube. I have never heard of Bangalore Brothers (Hariharan & Ashok) but i think it was a soulful rendition with a lot of bhavam...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8Ny9tax ... re=related

I'm glad that these musicians did not yell at the people who were video taping.

It's time that TMK/VS should focus only on the music and yearn for a name that will remain even after his time. Even the multi-million $ valued film industry is unable to curb piracy recordings, why bother screaming at serious music enthusiasts who do it out of interest??

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Jul 2010, 02:06

cmlover wrote:
I shot a message into the Forum
It brought missing folks -(at least ) some

Now I must work on the strategy of getting Cool and DRS back too

It is not a recommended way, in my opinion. You don't commit a crime to be bailed out by some benefactors, you have not seen in a long time. Besides they might use this opportunity to disown you.

During my academic career, citation of your work by your scientific peers was considered a prize to be treasured. If you write a paper wherein your results and conclusion violate the second law of thermodynamics, the whole scientific world would cite your work and come down upon you. You don't want some such thing, do you?

(Edited: This message was posted while concerned message came up. I have no intention of continuing the side track)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Jul 2010, 02:17

I am beyond the ego stage! Didn't I get you back?
If it will benefit this Forum I am willing to sacrifice myself and my reputation any time!
(..again not prolonging the side-track)

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 17 Jul 2010, 02:24

mankuthimma wrote:Navras Records changed things by listening to the pangs of a rasika. In recent years Swathi has made such a difference . Say a silent prayer in tribute for the likes of Kalavardhini who have been the first to acknowedge the need to showcase lesser known names .
Not convinced ? Drop in at karnatic Music store and You will find kalavardhini Cds at throwaway price of Rs 10 !!!
Names like Panthula, Vardhini , Jayaprada flute and so many more deserving artists.
If you are not careful you may be stepping on some of those cds hastily dumped in the lower shelves

Thanks for the info about Navras, Swathi and Kalavardhini. I will certainly check out Karnatic Music Store next time I am in Madras.
Pantula, Vardhini et al for Rs 10?!! I can't believe these artistes of immense vidwat are getting such shoddy treatment by the market place, while the famous artistes (most of whom I seldom listen to) sell for fancy prices.

I feel 'unofficial' recordings actually do a great service to many artistes. You come to hear of so many such unknown musicians thanks to these recordings. Established music labels would not touch these unknown artistes with a barge pole. When someone becomes famous, of course, they will all rush in.

I'm now wondering whether the TMK/VS comments are more to ensure only established artistes (like themselves) are allowed to flourish, and the unknown artistes (often of superior vidwat) remain unknown...

You find forum reviewers like rajeshnat (thru their reviews here) bring to our attention several artistes whose names most of us don't even know about - for e.g. see two recent reviews of Bharati Ramasubban and Ranjani Guruprasad. It would surely make sense also to hear their audio clips? It's only thru rasikas' recordings that we will get to hear them. If we have to wait for the recording companies to bring out their music, we can wait for ever...

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 17 Jul 2010, 02:30

R-T -

They never said do not record. They are saying record with *permission*. If up coming artists are willing to let rasikas record and propagate their music, they are more than welcome. Win - Win for the artists and rasikas. Like you mention, rajeshnat, rbharath to mention do a service, not only reporting what happened but also reviewing.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 17 Jul 2010, 03:02

MaheshS wrote:They never said do not record. They are saying record with *permission*.

And what I am saying is this: I don't need their permission to record. Period.

This is from their Express article:

For, recording even a bit of music, dance or any performance without the artisteâ€™s permission is legally punishable: under the Copyright Act, 1957.

When we read thru the Copyright Act, we found that this is a total lie! Notice how they use words like 'legally punishable' to scare us. This is bullying, plain and simple.
Honestly, I can't understand why people keep repeating something that's totally incorrect. I'm amazed at how easily otherwise intelligent people can be brainwashed by this kind of bullying.
They have insulted our intelligence by resorting to cheap scare tactics. Maybe they thought we won't take the trouble to read thru the copyright act; instead accept their word as gospel truth?
Let's call their bluff.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 17 Jul 2010, 03:34

R-T

We are seeing two sides of the coin. You are looking at the way it was put across. Yes, they are being bullies. As I said, the maximum I can / will do, is not buy any of their products or go to their concerts. That is my way of protest against their methods. I'm trying to see if within their column they had a valid point. I think so. They make a living out of it, and they want to maximise their income. Can't blame them for that.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 17 Jul 2010, 03:40

Sure, they can use all legal methods to maximise their income. More power to them.
But if they dare ask me not to record, they are crossing the boundary into illegality. And I may have to sue them then.
Your approach (of not buying their records etc) is a passive one. I tend to go for the pro-active route, i.e. take them on by recording their concert right infront of their eyes, and challenge them. As I said earlier, call their bluff.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Jul 2010, 03:41

In my mind, any amount of repetitious posting of "brainwashing" ,"bullying" etc., is not going to cut the mustard. The issue of copyright will not be settled by quoting a line or a paragraph from the 1957 act. The real test is in the courts. The issue can be settled only when a case goes to court. Plain and simple. Somebody has to commit the violation and be taken to court for the issue to be decided legal or not. Even a compromise appears remote at this stage.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 17 Jul 2010, 03:47

mahakavi wrote:In my mind, any amount of repetitious posting of "brainwashing" ,"bullying" etc., is not going to cut the mustard.

That's your opinion. I am raising the awareness of fellow forumites who may be under the false impression that what VS/TMK have stated is the truth.
People won't even act in the first place if people like VS/TMK misstate what's in the copyright act!
Btw, are you saying words written in the Act don't carry any weight? To me, that's the starting point.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Jul 2010, 04:01

>>Btw, are you saying words written in the Act don't carry any weight? To me, that's the starting point.<<

Words are just words ----do NOT mean anything. It is the interpretation of the law that makes it or breaks it. Perhaps the law has not been challenged so far. If challenged it can be declared unconstitutional. Also technical interpretation by the lawyers on both sides of the intent of the law, the application of the law to specific issues, and many other facets will carry weight in the minds of the judges who will pronounce the final judgement.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 17 Jul 2010, 04:09

kadambam wrote:This Todi Swarajati was a welcome relief, thanks to the person who "recorded" it and you tube. I have never heard of Bangalore Brothers (Hariharan & Ashok) but i think it was a soulful rendition with a lot of bhavam...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8Ny9tax ... re=related

Thanks a lot for letting us know about Bangalore brothers! Never heard of them before.
They are very good. Do listen to the first part: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPEzJ9dDtmg
And a lovely Appa Rama Bhakti here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhamDAGHukI
Does anyone have more info on these artistes? Who is their guru?

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 17 Jul 2010, 04:41

mahakavi wrote:Words are just words ----do NOT mean anything.

Thank you for those wise words (pun intended!).

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 17 Jul 2010, 04:42

R-T: Appa rAma bhakti by Bangalore Brothers is very nice.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 17 Jul 2010, 05:05

Indeed, beautiful kannaDa by VS and appa rAma bhakthi by B'lore brothers. Very nice! Thanks for the links, r-t.

Also, I agree with r-t that the words in the copyright act are the only reference for us now. If words are just words and open to interpretation, how about other acts and laws? No need to obey anything because they are 'just words', all of them? Come on.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 17 Jul 2010, 05:20

Here's a nice viribhOni by BB as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9K5JJaX ... re=related

To me, an artiste's rendition of this varNam is a good litmus test of his/her capabilities.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Jul 2010, 05:45

bilahari wrote:Indeed, beautiful kannaDa by VS and appa rAma bhakthi by B'lore brothers. Very nice! Thanks for the links, r-t.

Also, I agree with r-t that the words in the copyright act are the only reference for us now. If words are just words and open to interpretation, how about other acts and laws? No need to obey anything because they are 'just words', all of them? Come on.

The words in the act are not god-given commandments. They are subject to interpretation, in the context of the Constitution. The court can throw out the law in which case the parliament has to convene and see if they can change the words to mean what it says in the context of the ruling of the court. Why do you think conflicts arise? The court will say that "was or was not the intent of the writers of the law or it contravenes the constitution". If there were previous cases in different contexts regarding the same law each side will try to argue citing that case (e.g., Roe vs Wade in the case of abortion in the US. That case can be revisited time and again depending on the composition of the suprereme court. When the court turns very conservative that verdict can be reversed to ban abortion even in the first trimester of pregnancy).

You are not reading it right. Yes, a law is valid only until proven unconstitutional or invalid. Most laws are just obeyed until somebody challenges it. It requires financial muscle to take on the government.

So words can be interpreted differently. They are not absolute.

In the current controversy, talk is cheap. People who think it is OK to record the concert without permission should go ahead and do so. That would be a test case to see what the words mean. Nobody can be certain of the outcome from the way THEY read what the words mean.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 17 Jul 2010, 06:12

Interpretation etc. is ok, but the starting point is the words in the act.
These two artistes have stated in their article exactly the opposite of what's in the act. This is grossly misleading. People need to know what's stated in the act, so that they can act (pun unintended!) accordingly.
That's my point.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 17 Jul 2010, 06:20

bilahari wrote:Here's a nice viribhOni by BB as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9K5JJaX ... re=related
To me, an artiste's rendition of this varNam is a good litmus test of his/her capabilities.

Thanks for that! Yes, I agree viriboni is indeed a test of an artiste's vidwat. And they have done a superb job.
(They sound a bit like the early Malladi brothers.)

Now, if only we can get more info on them.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jul 2010, 06:53

mahakavi wrote:In my mind, any amount of repetitious posting of "brainwashing" ,"bullying" etc., is not going to cut the mustard. The issue of copyright will not be settled by quoting a line or a paragraph from the 1957 act. The real test is in the courts. The issue can be settled only when a case goes to court. Plain and simple. Somebody has to commit the violation and be taken to court for the issue to be decided legal or not. Even a compromise appears remote at this stage.

Fine. Can someone check if such cases had already been to the courts and if any precedent has been set? If any one has contacts with an Indian copyrights lawyer, they should be able to tell about such precedents.

mk, having said that, you can not just dismiss away laws like that just because they have not been tested in courts. That is usually for some grey area items. The laws are there so the society can self-regulate its actions according to the laws of the land. Hope I am making a fairly obvious point.