nidhi cAla sukhamA? Yes sir!

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Jul 2010, 03:22

Thyagaraja perhaps did a disservice to the current day musicians by writing "nidhi cAla sukhamA...". It was not meant to be a kriti to be sung by his disciples or future generations of musicians. He was marching to his own drum in not obeying the command of the king. It was his privilege and instead of getting incarceration for his disobedience he got glorified when the king came to him to get cured of his illness. End of story.

However, that title line has been tacked on by rasikas/critics on the current day musicians whenever the monetary issue comes up. They resort to comparison with olden day musicians. We just cannot compare the current day with times 100 or 200 years ago. Thyagaraja did not have the facility of travel by train. He took the "maTTu vaNDi" (bullock cart) when somebody obliged and took to walking at other times. You cannot ask the current day musicians to live in the past. tEngAy mUDik kaccEris are a thing of the past. Even then the wives of the musicians used to deride them for coming home with ONLY tEngAy mUDi. There was materialism at home while the musician himself was oblivious of the economic front. The musicians were held in high esteem although they lived in poverty. Fast forward to the 21st century.

The musicians now are not willing to go for "uncavrutti". Music is a profession and a business now. Let us not forget it. One more thing. The musician of the present age goes to "school" like all of us. He/she concentrates on learning music with the intention of making a living out of it. If they do a good job on the stage they will make a good living. Just like an engineer getting promoted if the bridge he builds does not fall down soon after he finishes it

There is no point in idolizing a musician or putting him/her on a pedestal. Don't put him on a pedestal and don't knock him down either when he acts like a regular human being with all the aspirations of a good life. Money, like it or not, is the prime mover these days. Money may not buy happiness but it makes the misery created by other activities/incidents more tolerable. So if the musicians want money (like everybody else) it is not a crime. Do not impose a saintly image on them and expect them to behave like one. They are just like you and me. The novel by R K Narayan and the subsequent movie "Guide" come to mind. I don't remember the details but wasn't the itinerant swami stoned for not bringing rain or something? Let us not treat our current day musicians in that mode.

Finally I have a suggestion. "nidhi cAla sukhamA" should be banned from the concert stage.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 17 Jul 2010, 04:44

Many artists knowing the meaning avoid singing this kriti if the concert is for making money.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 17 Jul 2010, 05:45

I agree. I will shoot someone if I hear this 'nidhi chAla sukhama' being invoked by one more person.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 17 Jul 2010, 05:46

But please let's not ban the composition from the concert stage! It is a wonderful tribute to the way T approached music. I have absolutely loved KVN's renditions of this krithi.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 17 Jul 2010, 06:07

Perhaps you guys should read the lyrics, understand the meaning in the context of when Tyagaraja sang this kriti, before making these comments.
See here: http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... khama.html
Meaning:

O My Mind!
Tell me truthfully -
whether wealth is very comforting or the service in the holy presence of Lord SrI rAma comforting?
Are curd, fresh butter and milk etc. tasty or the nectarine juice of meditation and bhajana of dASarathi tasty?
Is a bath in the (holy) river ganga called (practice of) self control and tranquility comforting or a bath in the water of well called the filthy, evil natured objects of senses comforting?
Is extolling humans bound by egotism comforting or singing songs of the pure minded Lord praised by this tyAgarAja comforting?

I would say it's a deeply spiritual composition that should be sung more often on the concert platform.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Jul 2010, 07:10

Be real, r-t.
Perhaps one can have both. Have enough money for satisfying needs and wants and then do the bhakti part too. They are not mutually exclusive. Come to think of it, would you be willing to do rAmuni sEvA instead of grabbing a salary for your work and tending to your family needs? If the answer is no, don't try to impose it on the musicians. Thyagaraja chose one extreme. The modern day musician does not have to choose the other extreme but there is a middle ground. Thyagaraja's plea does not apply only to musicians. It applies to all. Instead of precept show it in practice, the musicians would tell you. What would you do?

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 17 Jul 2010, 07:20

Very Much True. This song should not be sung by present day money earning musicians. There are so many stalwarts have sung this. My all time favourite is by GNB, with a nereval & swara prastharam @ Sumathi Thyagaraja!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jul 2010, 07:48

Thanks r-t for quoting the translation by Shri. Govindan...

I think the second line is more illustrative since it does not have the sensitivity associated with money.

Just because the taste of the nectarine juice of meditation and bhajana of dASarathi is far superior to the taste of curd, fresh butter and milk, it does not mean one should not enjoy curd, fresh butter or milk. Thyagaraja says they are in different planes and dimensions. Same with the comforts the money affords, not same as the comforts that the service in the holy presence of Lord SrI rAma provides but still a necessary thing. He is using a poetic device to illustrate his main point and it should not be taken literally and used out of context. Let the artists who desire to make a lot of money still sing the song!! I do not think there is really any contradiction.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 17 Jul 2010, 08:17

I agree - musicians should keep singing it and rasikas should stop quoting it!

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Jul 2010, 08:19

ragam-talam wrote:Perhaps you guys should read the lyrics, understand the meaning in the context of when Tyagaraja sang this kriti, before making these comments.
I would say it's a deeply spiritual composition that should be sung more often on the concert platform.

I an not unaware of the meaning of this song. As I said in post #1, this song was specific to the circumstance T experienced when the king Serabhoji called him to his court and his reluctance to sing the praise of mortals. He perhaps did not give that advice to others. It was more self-remonstration than exhortation to others.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 17 Jul 2010, 08:37

Well said, VK.
I thought this thread was started by Mahakavi as an epilogue to the mega thread but it now seems as though it's making its way towards the lounge, what with all the food references

I am glad to hear Bilahari and r_t say that we do want to hear such songs --even from those who are definitely not clones of T. In that case (pun not intended), wonder how it works when it comes to pujAris in some temples as their woshipping hands turn to grabbing ones as they come out of the sanctum sanctorum!

Strange scenes: musicians screening the audience for recording devices and listeners deciding if a musician is worthy enough to sing/play songs of a philosophical nature

Bah humbug !

KSJaishankar · Post by **KSJaishankar** » 17 Jul 2010, 09:46

vs_manjunath wrote:Very Much True. This song should not be sung by present day money earning musicians. There are so many stalwarts have sung this. My all time favourite is by GNB, with a nereval & swara prastharam @ Sumathi Thyagaraja

Beg pardon, but GNB was not really known for his antipathy to money or material matters

The prince of carnatic music was princely in his tastes too! Vaira Kadukkan, Javvadu Pottu, new cars whenever possible, new watch every week - btw, all this from the "official" DVD on GNB released this year. Don't get me wrong - it takes NOTHING away from the man's genius. I am sure most of us would have rather heard GNB's grand vision of Kalyani demonstrated in this kriti, and sustained his lifestyle willingly, than hear a tenga moodi rendition by a bhagavathar who probably is a tenga moodi not by choice, but by compulsions of talent.

GNB's greatness on the money matters lay in his willingness to share the wealth with his accompanists, not in generally being un-money-minded.

mahakavi wrote:Thyagaraja's plea does not apply only to musicians. It applies to all.

Bravo! Sir ... rem acu tetigisti!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 17 Jul 2010, 09:51

The saint's composition is posed in the form of questions - many would probably (if they'd own to it) say that nidhi would give them more happiness than being in rAma's sannidhi. The more categorical statement of Sri MD leaves no doubt - hiraNmayIm lakshIm sadA bhajAmi - hIna mAnavASrayam tyajAmi...

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 17 Jul 2010, 12:59

In fact, there are several other compositions of Tyagaraja that express similar sentiments. Based on the logic expressed by some here, artistes should stop singing several of Tyagaraja's kritis!

To those who say that in today's fast, materialistic, <insert your favorite word here> world the saint's words do not carry any relevance, all I can is this: you have got it completely wrong!
In fact, it's precisely in today's materialistic world that these words carry even more significance.
Great bards like Tyagaraja and Shakespeare had deep insights into the human mind, which hasn't changed much in all these years, with all its fears, greed etc. - even though we may have moved from bullock-carts to jet planes. Which is why their ideas and thoughts have as much relevance today, and will continue to be relevant for centuries to come.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Jul 2010, 19:50

r-t:
Relevance in today's world is according to how each one perceives. Now would you follow that maxim and put it into practice? To do that you should quit your job and stay at rAma's sannidhi. Then your stand will be either appreciated (for its nobility) or derided for its irrelevance in today's world.

perarulalan · Post by **perarulalan** » 17 Jul 2010, 20:31

mahakavi wrote: Music is a profession and a business now.

This reminds me of a book that I had read on Impactful Research and Results ... I don't remember the exact title. But, found something that implied this:
" Those were the days when things were done out of passion and we got wonderful results. The moment professionalism comes, beauty and impact goes into hiding!"

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Jul 2010, 20:58

perarulalan:
What you say is quite true. In the old days scientific research was done by single individuals on their favorite topic and that was done with passion. There were lots of single author publications. Some research took years to come out in print. Fundamental discoveries were made without the pressure of timelines or tenure considerations. But times have changed. Do you ever see single author publications anymore? Nowadays "impact", "citation", "relevance", "benefit" are all the factors that govern funding of research. Research has become complex. These days it is all systems research--ten segments of a problem are allocated to ten different groups and many times one group does not know the importance of the other group's work. Publications carry numerous authors' names that the list would numerically exceed the strength of a football (US) team.

So these are perhaps the best of times and the worst of times as well, to paraphrase Charles Dickens.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jul 2010, 21:01

mahakavi wrote: I an not unaware of the meaning of this song. As I said in post #1, this song was specific to the circumstance T experienced when the king Serabhoji called him to his court and his reluctance to sing the praise of mortals. He perhaps did not give that advice to others. It was more self-remonstration than exhortation to others.

BTW, that is part of the folklore and myth associated with Thyagaraja. I will leave it at that.

But most of you and majority of the people who quote this song are missing the main point of the composition. In THIS song, Thyagaraja is NOT decrying riches/wealth and he is NOT decrying the enjoyment of the good taste of freshly made butter or yogurt!! He is singing about the spiritual aspects and that is the focus. It is a common poetic device to compare the higher plane spiritual realm aspects to this material world.

We all have this image of Thyagaraja as a material minimalist. That is probably the source of the confusion to shift the simile used to be the main message. Had he chosen to swap the first two themes, Milk and Butter simile as the first one and wealth as the second one, I doubt this popular mis-interpretation would have happened..

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Jul 2010, 21:15

>>BTW, that is part of the folklore and myth associated with Thyagaraja. I will leave it at that.<<
Listen, the aura associated with many of T's kritis stems from the austere life he lived and the so-called real life experiences as narrated by his disciples and propagated further. Without that "myth" and aura, the kritis would lose much of their weight or glamor. If I tell you the same thing T said in different words what would you say---"get lost", right?

Anybody can write "what is money after all, it is just a means to eke out a living", "please god, come and save me", "I have been crying out for you and you don't have any sympathy" and all such inanities in the song format. Why should Syama Sastri's "nannu brovu lalitE" be any weightier than John Doe's, "Please save me, my Lord"? Without an accompanying real-life incident or "myth" there is no aura.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jul 2010, 22:35

mk, all 100% true. The myth part I mentioned is that song was composed as a reaction to the Tanjore king incident.

Just to be sure, I also fully agree with the view that Thyagaraja placed spiritual quests much much higher than material things and he lived such a life. But my point is, "what is money after all, it is just a means to eke out a living" is not the main theme or thrust of THIS song, though that is the popular mis-interpretation. I have heard such things from major personalities in their sangeetha upanyasams. It just does not hold. The second theme about milk and butter sheds clear light on where he is going with this. ( and an obvious one to me ). Compare that with "what is milk and butter after all, it is just a means to satisfy our tastes and hunger"... True, definitely, but that is not the main message. Why would Thyagaraja waste his time stating an obvious point as the main message of his composition. He is obviously using this to illustrate the higher ideals and he is definitely NOT saying 'Don't go after milk or butter'..

But I grant you that your interpretation "what is money after all, it is just a means to eke out a living" is definitely infer-able as a possible side theme. I have heard others go to the extreme and use this to illustrate that Tyagaraja is anti-money and wealth and he is decrying even normal materialism, let alone extreme materialism and he is preaching that to others. I do not think there is any evidence of that in this song...

All this to state my contention that a rich person ( or a very rich person, or even Ambani, Gates, Jobs or Buffett ) singing this song is not necessarily hypocrisy or contradictory.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Jul 2010, 23:07

mahakavi wrote:>>BTW, that is part of the folklore and myth associated with Thyagaraja. I will leave it at that.<<
Listen, the aura associated with many of T's kritis stems from the austere life he lived and the so-called real life experiences as narrated by his disciples and propagated further. Without that "myth" and aura, the kritis would lose much of their weight or glamor. If I tell you the same thing T said in different words what would you say---"get lost", right?

Anybody can write "what is money after all, it is just a means to eke out a living", "please god, come and save me", "I have been crying out for you and you don't have any sympathy" and all such inanities in the song format. Why should Syama Sastri's "nannu brovu lalitE" be any weightier than John Doe's, "Please save me, my Lord"? Without an accompanying real-life incident or "myth" there is no aura.

MK
You are very true. There is no historical confirmation of the event! The disciples may have concocted the story in praise of their Guru as it happens in most cases. In fact T did lead a comfortable life with the help of doles from his admirers. A 'true' brahmin should lead a totally ascetic life without any possessions (watch Cho's EngE brAmaNan!) Of course one has to read the message and not analyze the messenger! Of course it is a superb musical composition to be enjoyed for its musical value and kudos to T for composing it and to the performers who render it superbly (I wonder how many (barring Telugus) will understand or even care for the content

In fact you and I and many of us are equally saintly if there is no exaggeration! We could compose equally such elevated messages for others but no one can live by them. At least now due to the investigative journalism many so-called saints get exposed to show how degraded they are! There is angel and devil in all of us in different proportions!
No man can pass a judgement on another human without a self-introspection! Advice is inexpensive!

We shold respect the dictum (as far as possible)
To thine own Self be True

Cheerful · Post by **Cheerful** » 18 Jul 2010, 01:25

KSJaishankar wrote:Bravo! Sir ... rem acu tetigisti!

Do I smell a B.Wooster Fan

? I remember him (or rather the peerless P.G.Wodehouse!) using this Latin phrase many a time conversing with Jeeves mostly while trying to get out of some madcap jam his Aunt Dahlia thrust him into!

Sorry for digressing from this very important topic- Wealth Vs Lord Rama's Sannidhi! :$ or Us Vs Wealth Vs the Lord's Sannidhi!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Jul 2010, 01:38

rem acu tetigisti=you have hit the nail on the head
Did Bertie use that expression! I don't remember

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 Jul 2010, 03:33

Not that bird-brain Wooster! Would have been Jeeves whose diet was rich in omega oil! See! The smell of cooking in the Lounge wafts out and we can't help bringing food in here too

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 18 Jul 2010, 18:32

rasikas can please see the following link in which Walajapet Venkataramana Bhagavathar , prime shishya of Saint Thyagaraja is discussed. We have also discussed, the subject song and the story related to this song, I beleive this story has not been written by Bhagavathar.( Quite Strange Indeed!) http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 69&start=0

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 18 Jul 2010, 20:19

ragam-talam wrote:Perhaps you guys should read the lyrics, understand the meaning in the context of when Tyagaraja sang this kriti, before making these comments.
See here: http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... khama.html
Meaning: O My Mind!
Tell me truthfully -
whether wealth is very comforting or the service in the holy presence of Lord SrI rAma comforting?
Are curd, fresh butter and milk etc. tasty or the nectarine juice of meditation and bhajana of dASarathi tasty?
Is a bath in the (holy) river ganga called (practice of) self control and tranquility comforting or a bath in the water of well called the filthy, evil natured objects of senses comforting?
Is extolling humans bound by egotism comforting or singing songs of the pure minded Lord praised by this tyAgarAja comforting?

I would say it's a deeply spiritual composition that should be sung more often on the concert platform.

And I would ask, point me to a single version of this kriti from the concert platform that does justice to this highly emotional content and makes it come through in the singing. I looked high and low for a version that I could learn from but, to my great disappointment, have yet to find one! Every rendition seems to be merely a platform to get to rapid-fire neraval and kalpanAswaram at "mamatA ..." ignoring everything else on the way. I wonder how MDR would have sung this....

-Then Paanan

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 18 Jul 2010, 20:34

>>Krishnaswami Bhagavatarâ€™s biography traces the entire life of the composer including his visit to Madras. Significantly, neither father nor son mentions the famed tale behind the composition â€œNidhi chala sukhama,â€ though both independently state that Tyagaraja was above material considerations. In addition Krishnaswami Bhagavatar wrote that ruler Serfoji invited Tyagaraja to the court many times only to have him refuse.<<

The above paragraph reproduced from The Hindu article by Sriram is not that clear. The second sentence and the third sentence do not jibe with each other. If T refused the entreaties of the king several times then what is there to refute the "myth" behind the song? The song could have been sung by T if the third sentence in the paragraph is true. As for the king coming to T's place to seek forgiveness I can reconcile that it could be some polish done by latter biographers.

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 19 Jul 2010, 10:45

thenpaanan wrote:
And I would ask, point me to a single version of this kriti from the concert platform that does justice to this highly emotional content and makes it come through in the singing. I looked high and low for a version that I could learn from but, to my great disappointment, have yet to find one! Every rendition seems to be merely a platform to get to rapid-fire neraval and kalpanAswaram at "mamatA ..." ignoring everything else on the way. I wonder how MDR would have sung this....

-Then Paanan

The members of this forum, who are actively discussing this song can probably sing with all the emotions conveyed by the song and U can learn from the audio link!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 19 Jul 2010, 12:21

mahakavi wrote:>>Krishnaswami Bhagavatarâ€™s biography traces the entire life of the composer including his visit to Madras. Significantly, neither father nor son mentions the famed tale behind the composition â€œNidhi chala sukhama,â€ though both independently state that Tyagaraja was above material considerations. In addition Krishnaswami Bhagavatar wrote that ruler Serfoji invited Tyagaraja to the court many times only to have him refuse.<<

The above paragraph reproduced from The Hindu article by Sriram is not that clear. The second sentence and the third sentence do not jibe with each other. If T refused the entreaties of the king several times then what is there to refute the "myth" behind the song?

Seems very clear and consistent to me. Like you say, the "myth" behind the song is just that. There is no evidence for it - just speculation.

The song could have been sung by T if the third sentence in the paragraph is true. As for the king coming to T's place to seek forgiveness I can reconcile that it could be some polish done by latter biographers.

Yes. Could have. No evidence for it.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 19 Jul 2010, 12:22

vs_manjunath wrote: The members of this forum, who are actively discussing this song can probably sing with all the emotions conveyed by the song and U can learn from the audio link!

LOL

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 19 Jul 2010, 15:45

I have heard that MMI avoided singing this song as he felt it is not right to sing this when he accept money for giving the concerts.
MSS has sung this excellently in many concerts- true to the life she has lived and the principles she and her beloved husband believed.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 19 Jul 2010, 17:30

sureshvv wrote:
Yes. Could have. No evidence for it.

Would you go as far to say T did not sing that song? That way one can claim no evidence for any of his songs, like they say that Shakespeare did not write his plays.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Jul 2010, 18:00

A careful lexical analysis by a Telugu expert who knows T's style can authenticate or refute the claims!
At any rate the message is independent of the messenger!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 19 Jul 2010, 18:28

sureshvv wrote:
Yes. Could have. No evidence for it.

mahakavi wrote:
Would you go as far to say T did not sing that song? That way one can claim no evidence for any of his songs, like they say that Shakespeare did not write his plays.

Please avoid the strawman argumentation technique of putting words in other people's mouth and then vehemently shooting them down. My interpretation of Sriram's article is that there is no evidence that this kriti is related to the Serfoji episode. That connection seems to be a later concoction of speculators in search of a story.

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 19 Jul 2010, 19:06

Kalaimamani R Ramani is playing this song on her veena in Naada Neerajanam programme- V r enjoying this melodious veena recital live.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 19 Jul 2010, 19:14

>>Quote:
The song could have been sung by T if the third sentence in the paragraph is true. As for the king coming to T's place to seek forgiveness I can reconcile that it could be some polish done by latter biographers.

Yes. Could have. No evidence for it.<<

sureshvv:
If you read it again, the quote above is from my post. I said T could have sung the song after the entreaties from the king (rebuffed by T). The entreaties have been cataloged by WKB(?) per Sriram's article.
You said "could have". "No evidence for it". It is a natural inference if T rebuffed the king several times, he could have sung that. But then instead of acquiescing you said "no evidence". That way anything connected with T can be dismissed as "not authentic". That is what I was drawing from your remark. It is not a strawman argument.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 19 Jul 2010, 19:53

He could have also composed the kriti much before the Serfoji episode occurred or a considerable period later when it was a distant memory. The inference to tie these two episodes together is not at all "natural" and genuine historians are reluctant to jump to these quick conclusions.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 19 Jul 2010, 20:27

mahakavi wrote:Thyagaraja perhaps did a disservice to the current day musicians by writing "nidhi cAla sukhamA...". It was not meant to be a kriti to be sung by his disciples or future generations of musicians. He was marching to his own drum in not obeying the command of the king. It was his privilege and instead of getting incarceration for his disobedience he got glorified when the king came to him to get cured of his illness. End of story.

Quite the contrary! It is a deeply introspective question that each one of us should contemplate on and decide what they would like to give up in that pursuit. Of course the answer may vary depending on where one is in the journey of life. However as is typical of humans, people use it to look outwards and judge others rather than use it for their own benefit.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 19 Jul 2010, 21:55

sureshvv wrote:He could have also composed the kriti much before the Serfoji episode occurred or a considerable period later when it was a distant memory. The inference to tie these two episodes together is not at all "natural" and genuine historians are reluctant to jump to these quick conclusions.

For that matter there is no genuine history about Thyagaraja. Nothing was written about him during his lifetime which was preserved in textual form. Whoever wrote much later whatever details were all information gathered from second or third-hand info only. Subbrama Dikshitar gathered some info from anonymous sources and wrote as though they were authentic. So everything about Thyagaraja's history may be concocted (to add some mystique) except that he was a rAma bhakta and he wrote quite a few kritis. That is why I said what is great about T saying "nidhi cAla sukhamA"? Other people can wax eloquent about the same concept in much greater literary glitter.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 19 Jul 2010, 21:59

sureshvv wrote:
Quite the contrary! It is a deeply introspective question that each one of us should contemplate on and decide what they would like to give up in that pursuit. Of course the answer may vary depending on where on is in the journey of life. However as is typical of humans, people use it to look outwards and judge others rather than use it for their own benefit.

Certainly not applicable in this day. It is like what we describe as "ideal gases" and write equations about it in science. All gases deviate extensively from those ideal properties. That is what humans are too. Very few human beings" tend" towards that ideal condition. It is not for ordinary human beings, who constitute the majority.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 19 Jul 2010, 23:21

mahakavi wrote: Certainly not applicable in this day. It is like what we describe as "ideal gases" and write equations about it in science. All gases deviate extensively from those ideal properties. That is what humans are too. Very few human beings" tend" towards that ideal condition. It is not for ordinary human beings, who constitute the majority.

May be. At least we recognize and accept the "ideals" (even if we cannot practice). Just being able to do that is an achievement of sorts. So don't be so hard on yourself.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 19 Jul 2010, 23:27

mahakavi wrote: For that matter there is no genuine history about Thyagaraja. Nothing was written about him during his lifetime which was preserved in textual form. Whoever wrote much later whatever details were all information gathered from second or third-hand info only. Subbrama Dikshitar gathered some info from anonymous sources and wrote as though they were authentic. So everything about Thyagaraja's history may be concocted (to add some mystique) except that he was a rAma bhakta and he wrote quite a few kritis. That is why I said what is great about T saying "nidhi cAla sukhamA"? Other people can wax eloquent about the same concept in much greater literary glitter.

Quite far from the truth. There is a lot of "genuine" history if you care to look for it - even here at rasikas. History is usually written afterwards which does not invalidate it per se. The narratives of Wallajapet that was quoted in the original article that you cited is a rich source. And there are few others. Unfortunately there is also a lot of "ideal gas" which people make up or propagate.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Jul 2010, 01:07

CRama wrote:I have heard that MMI avoided singing this song as he felt it is not right to sing this when he accept money for giving the concerts.

How sad.. Wrong interpretation of that song is not with out its serious consequences.
We all lost out on MMI singing it often with great bhAvam. It is so wrong to interpret that song that way and avoid singing it in paid concerts.
But we can not blame MMI, That is the prevailing mis-information ( then and now ) that somehow got established and permeated in people's consciousness.

Here is a workable compromise. Start the song with "dadhi navanIta kshIramulu ruciyO"

No one is going to find fatal character flaws about
having an addictive taste for curd, butter and milk!!

( on the humorous side, that would be true even if there is a legend that King Serfoji invited Thyagaraja to visit his court
and offered a life long supply of curd, butter and milk and on that occasion T composed the song starting with dadhi navanIta kshIramulu ruciyO !! )

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 20 Jul 2010, 01:53

vasanthakokilam wrote: Here is a workable compromise. Start the song with the anupallavi "dadhi navanIta kshIramulu ruciyO"

No one is going to find fatal character flaws about
having an addictive taste for curd, butter and milk!!

.....and avoid the pallavi line altogether? Isn't it hypocritical? When the cat closes its eyes the world does not turn dark.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Jul 2010, 01:54

Sing the pallavi but the impact will be a bit less!!

My point is, how come no one is talking about not having a taste for curd, butter and milk. Thyagaraja says that in the same breath as the first line.
We do not hear people taking a wow of not lusting after curd, butter and milk after singing that song.
Or refusing to sing that song because they feel bad about having an addictive taste for those three things.
Or getting blamed for hypocrisy for lusting after those three things and still singing that line with great bhAvam.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 20 Jul 2010, 02:05

sureshvv wrote:
Quite far from the truth. There is a lot of "genuine" history if you care to look for it - even here at rasikas. History is usually written afterwards which does not invalidate it per se. The narratives of Wallajapet that was quoted in the original article that you cited is a rich source. And there are few others. Unfortunately there is also a lot of "ideal gas" which people make up or propagate.

Pl refer me to some "genuine" history, if you know of any, other than Sriram"s article. WVB/WKB have, according to him, stated about the king epiisode. As to whether T sang "nidhi cAla" before or soon after, or long after, nobody knows. It is likely WVB (not WKB who knew T only during his last years) knew about the context of the song but did not care to connect the two. So nothing can be concluded unless somebody else (I doubt this) who was with T wrote anything different.

I still stand by my observation that T's kritis would lose much of their charm and reverence if it were not for some real life noteworthy incidents, I agree there may be exaggerations. Anybody can dismiss any incident tacked on by biographers for lack of evidence. Evidence demands are relatively new. If we start demanding evidence for our epics and purANas there won't be any Hindu religion to speak of or venerate.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 20 Jul 2010, 02:12

vasanthakokilam wrote:Sing the pallavi but the impact will be a bit less!!

My point is, how come no one is talking about not having a taste for curd, butter and milk. Thyagaraja says that in the same breath as the first line.
We do not hear people taking a wow of not lusting after curd, butter and milk after singing that song.
Or refusing to sing that song because they feel bad about having an addictive taste for those three things.
Or getting blamed for hypocrisy for lusting after those three things and still singing that line with great bhAvam.

vk:
In the order of importance, money ranks first. That is why. With money you can get lot more things than butter, curd etc. It is not that the singers hesitate to sing the song because it contravenes their motive (for money). If some are hesitant it is becaue some will (as they do now in the copyright issue) question them on the so-called hypocrisy. I don't myself see any hypocrisy. Those who sing it (while receiving monetary remuneration for the concert) do it for the aesthetic part of it and not necessarily for the moralistic twist.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 20 Jul 2010, 02:41

thenpaanan wrote:And I would ask, point me to a single version of this kriti from the concert platform that does justice to this highly emotional content and makes it come through in the singing.

This clip from 'Tyagayya', the movie about the saint, is quite a nice rendition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGkRpObyzo0

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 20 Jul 2010, 04:02

ragam-talam: May I request you to please provide sangeethapriya links of this song sung by stalwarts of CM. I have seen links sung by ARI;SSI;MSS;GNB. KVN & Santhanam(Commercial available- don't know the availability in sangeethapriya ). It will be nice to listen to all their versions , so that this POST becomes complete by itself ! I am sure u will please work on my request.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Jul 2010, 04:31

Those who sing it (while receiving monetary remuneration for the concert) do it for the aesthetic part of it and not necessarily for the moralistic twist.

Right.

And I am going one step further and say there is no moralistic twist implied in the song. It is only the linkage with the Serfoji incident that added the moralistic twist. I am harping on that curd, milk and butter line to convey that in the reductio ad absurdum way.

The focus of the song is on the spiritua part of each line. The earthly part of each line varies : Wealth, curd,butter&milk, indulgence of the senses and praising humans. The song is about putting the highest possible value judgment on the spiritual counterparts of these four earthly things. The focus of the message is not trashing these four specific earthly things.
( Other than the generally understood trashing ( lower value judgment ) of anything earthly in any spiritual message )

Tangentially speaking, T need not have even stated the second part of each line, the whole song can be

nidhi cAla sukhamA
dadhi navanIta kshIramulu ruciyO
kardama dur-vishaya kUpa snAnamu sukhamA
mamata bandhana yuta nara stuti sukhamA

and still it can convey the intended spiritual meaning. The spiritual counterparts can just be left for readers to fill in.
( I am not saying this one would be a better song than the real one but I hope you get my point )

Just for comparison, it is like the poetic device used in the thirukkural "peelipei sagadum acchirum appandam sala miguthu peyin" - excessive loading of even peacock feather can break the axle of a wagon ( pardon my transliteration errors ).
Obviously, the point of this is not a cautionary message to the peacock feather merchants to not overload their wagons!!